Spirit Bond Between Wolf And Human

[redwolfspirit1985]

Hello everyone. I am a human bonded with a red wolf spirit. Ironically I'm also a Buddist. Whenever I get upset about something my wolf takes over and when ever I need him to he will take over. I don't change or anything, but I get the feelings and other stuff of the red wolf.

[Vendetta]

Why is being a Buddhist ironic?

[Tempest]

Why is being a Buddhist ironic?

My understanding is that, in Buddhism, your sense of self is simply an illusion. We are all connected and the only thing that makes me me is my perception. I think I am the same person that I was 20 years ago. I think I am a different physical entity than you or the laptop I'm typing on. But our reality is based solely on how we perceive things, and in truth there is no individual self. Because there is no individual self, you can't be connected to another individual self, as is the case in therianthropy. So a therian saying s/he is Buddhist would be a bit like a Christian saying they don't need to follow the 10 Commandments. I may be off a bit, since the Buddhist concept of anatman (no-self) is very difficult for me to wrap my head around, so it'd be interesting to see what the OP would say.

[Vendetta]

My understanding is that, in Buddhism, your sense of self is simply an illusion. We are all connected and the only thing that makes me me is my perception. I think I am the same person that I was 20 years ago. I think I am a different physical entity than you or the laptop I'm typing on. But our reality is based solely on how we perceive things, and in truth there is no individual self. Because there is no individual self, you can't be connected to another individual self, as is the case in therianthropy. So a therian saying s/he is Buddhist would be a bit like a Christian saying they don't need to follow the 10 Commandments. I may be off a bit, since the Buddhist concept of anatman (no-self) is very difficult for me to wrap my head around, so it'd be interesting to see what the OP would say.
Then doesn't that make it not so much ironic, as not really being a buddhist?

[Tempest]

Then doesn't that make it not so much ironic, as not really being a buddhist?

Well, that's my thought on the matter, lol. I'm always open to the idea that I'm just misunderstanding, though.

Honestly the whole thing is a bit silly. Why do people always make animals into these violent pissed off creatures? Instead of accepting that human beings can and do get upset and even feel the need to be violent at times, they attribute it to the spirit of some other animal possessing them. Kind of avoids all responsibility for controlling your emotions.

[NeonLightChild]

Kind of avoids all responsibility for controlling your emotions.

I'd make some kind of snarky comment about how that's pretty much the American thing these days, but something tells me it's not just limited to America.

There's always blame to be placed somewhere other than oneself.

[Wolf-Bone]

I'd make some kind of snarky comment about how that's pretty much the American thing these days, but something tells me it's not just limited to America.

There's always blame to be placed somewhere other than oneself.

Um, that's kinda one of the defining traits/flaws of human civilization from ever since... Eh?!

[Net]

Heh, having a bond with some spirit animal thing would be pretty sweet. All your "I wonder what it would be like to not be human?" questions would be at least partially answered and you'd always have someone interesting to talk to. Heck, you'd probly even win every fight you would get into, ever. You wanna fight me? BAM ANIMAL TACTICS. Of course, you'd want a cool, predatorial animal, otherwise it might be pretty boring and you'd lose all those fights. :(

[_Raven]

The most common term for this is Therianthropy. ;) I'm a wolf therianthrope myself, so I can relate to Redwolf up there.

Net, it definitely is pretty sweet. Sometimes it sucks though. It has it's good and bad. We don't physically shift, because that's pretty ridiculous. A thing of fantasy. But a lot of us do experience mental shifts, where we behave and think like our animal. (When this happens to me, for example, I'm usually incredibly playful, wanting to pounce someone, run around outside, explore, etc.)

And FYI to the rest of you, the animalistic part of therians doesn't ONLY show up when we're angry. Though that's one simple way to tell a poser/roleplayer from a legit therian. The fakers will usually claim silly things like physical shifting and alternate reality worlds that they travel to, BS like that.

[Shaman Wake]

And FYI to the rest of you, the animalistic part of therians doesn't ONLY show up when we're angry. Though that's one simple way to tell a poser/roleplayer from a legit therian.
Like a lot of stereotypes and misconceptions it has a little truth to it. Those of us more prone to mental shifts do often shift when stressed, it's just rare that times of stress are the only time we shift. I'd also imagine it has to do with how a shifted mind behaves when happy verses angry. In other words it's not really that eye-catching to see someone romp around with friends whereas a good hearty snarl usually strikes people as not being terribly human-like.

[Kagusaki]

Like a lot of stereotypes and misconceptions it has a little truth to it. Those of us more prone to mental shifts do often shift when stressed, it's just rare that times of stress are the only time we shift. I'd also imagine it has to do with how a shifted mind behaves when happy verses angry. In other words it's not really that eye-catching to see someone romp around with friends whereas a good hearty snarl usually strikes people as not being terribly human-like.

I concur with you. Whenever I get real stressed out, I tend to growl lowly and break things with my teeth. But I also have MS whenever I'm relaxed and out with nature. I'm one of those guys who don't like to get dirty (using a knife and fork to eat ribs type guy) but when it comes to the wilderness, I get down and dirty (filleting fish with a hunting knife and not worry about getting fish guts on my clothes). I also have MS at home (nuzzling things, tinker with trinkets, etc). It's just that people don't think about it when it's something not frightening or not overly eccentric.

[GhostBat]

I'm one of those guys who don't like to get dirty (using a knife and fork to eat ribs type guy) but when it comes to the wilderness, I get down and dirty (filleting fish with a hunting knife and not worry about getting fish guts on my clothes).

I dunno if I'd call that kind of thing a mental shift from human to animal, but I'm a skeptic of therianthropy in general. I'm also spelling out mental shift because every time I read MS I think multiple sclerosis. :p

I'm one of those people who really can't stand not having a hot shower every day, my hair clean, teeth brushed, nails manicured, etc., but I also love to camp. When I camp, I can live with using dry shampoo on my hair (if that), not shaving, no hot running water, and so on with ease. I'm a human, though, simple as that. I like being on the same mental footing as the people who invented computers and appendectomies. ;)

Humans have the capability to compartmentalize experiences. If you're at home, being dirty is unacceptably uncomfortable. If you're camping/hiking/hunting/fishing, your mind is capable of accepting being dirty without an issue. When I say "you're", I mean you specifically. I know people who wont shower for a week at home, but they complain they get dirty when they camp. Boggles the mind.

[_Raven]

Humans have the capability to compartmentalize experiences. If you're at home, being dirty is unacceptably uncomfortable. If you're camping/hiking/hunting/fishing, your mind is capable of accepting being dirty without an issue. When I say "you're", I mean you specifically. I know people who wont shower for a week at home, but they complain they get dirty when they camp. Boggles the mind.

This may be true. But there's a bit more to it with therianthropes usually. Sticking to Kagusaki's example of fish gutting- Yeah, a typical clean freak can probably do that out in the wilderness with no problem. A therian (depending on what sets of m-shifts for the individual.. Food is usually a big one) will usually not only be able to handle the mess without anxiety, but may get excited by the smell of the fish, the look of the meat, and will get the urge to scarf it down right there, despite being raw. (Obviously, I wouldn't advise giving into the urge... We do have human bodies, after all, and the human systems can't handle more than a little bit of raw meat or contaminants.)

Even if that were explained with logic, there is still the phenomenon of phantom shifting that's not so easily explained, but very common among therians.

[GhostBat]

Food is usually a big one) will usually not only be able to handle the mess without anxiety, but may get excited by the smell of the fish, the look of the meat, and will get the urge to scarf it down right there, despite being raw.

Then I must be a therian of some kind, because I think raw steaks look absolutely divine. Of course I'm not a therian. That doesn't make you part animal, even in spirit, it makes you a human. Humans are omnivores. I mean, people in America eat a higher ratio of meat to produce than bears. Besides, a lot of animals will eat meat whether it's cooked or not, including humans. Haven't you heard of sushi, sashimi, seared ahi, or steak tartare, to name a few?

Even if that were explained with logic, there is still the phenomenon of phantom shifting that's not so easily explained, but very common among therians.

When I was a kid, I wanted to be a panther so bad! I could imagine I had a tail, to the point where it didn't feel like my imagination anymore. Phantom limb syndrome is a real, serious, and often painful disorder that many amputees have struggled with. The condition is so painful that patients were often willing to undergo a second amputation or even brain surgery in the hopes of treating it before we found a treatment that actually works. It's not to be taken lightly. There is bountiful evidence that it exists, and it has been treated by the medical community for many years.

The absolute main issue with phantom shifting, for me, is that it must deal with a past life of some kind. You obviously didn't have a tail or wings or whatever in your current life to be amputated, so this forces phantom shifting into the supernatural. If it's supernatural, then it has no basis in science, and is therefore not a real medical condition. It's like saying that I have epilepsy from my past life, except I don't experience any negative side effects and it doesn't show up on brain scans. It kind of turns epilepsy into a joke, when there are people and animals all over the world suffering with this condition.

I'm not insulted on behalf of amputees, that's stupid, I'm just saying it's really not appropriate to hijack a serious medical condition and turn it into a fantasy happy go lucky thing that you pretend you have. This kind of experience is solely the result of a very active imagination and a strong desire to be a particular animal.

Let me also be proactive with this discussion and bring up dream shifts, because I also have experience with this. When I was about 3, I dreamed I went to this place that allowed me to become a parrot and fly. When I woke up, I was so convinced that this dream was real, I actually got really upset at my mother for not telling me how to get back there. It was on my mind for so long, that my grandmother bought me a giant parrot stuffed animal to make me feel better. Does that make me a parrot therianthrope? Nope.

Just a couple of nights ago, I had a dream that I was pregnant with a duck. It was so vivid that when I woke up, I had to sit there and convince myself that it wasn't real. It couldn't be real, because it doesn't jive with how things work in the real world. Does that mean I'm pregnant with a duck? Quack. I mean, nope.

Throughout my life I've dreamed I was a bat, bat/wolf hybrid, wolf, parrot, man, mouse, alien (from the movie Aliens), any number of monstrous creatures from movies, etc. Does that make me a bat/wolf/parrot/man/mouse/alien/monster therian? Nope.

Dreams are funky because they interject memories into your brain that you never actually experienced. Total Recall anyone? One of the reasons some dreams can feel so real is because your dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is all but shut off, leading you to accept all the crazy happenings that occur in dreams as being totally reasonable. "Therians" can interpret vivid animal dreams as dream shifts, but they aren't any different than someone like me experiencing the same thing because I like a particular animal and think it would be cool to experience what life would be like as one.

Logic wins, always. :)

[Cahalith]

@GhostBat, As much as I would like to say yes science/logic wins every time there are cases that can not be explained by science or logic.

I know you are extremely epic in your knowledge of science, but I was actually wanting to ask you about was do you believe in scientific Theories, like the theory of relativity?

If yes, then in some way you too believe in something that isn't proven. its not a law there for its not fact yet.

Though I am an emotional person, I try and to base as much as I can on things that are concrete things that are real, tangible and proven. I like logic, Its comfortable to me.

Sometimes things happen that I can't explain, and defy logic, like the conversation I had with my grandmother when I was 10 (she had been dead for 9 years) I told my mom, and a lot of what I said freaked my mom out because it was true.

I have had moments where I have heard laughter when in the woods and it was just me and my dog. The laughter seems to echo off the trees.

I have very vivid dreams with a lot of violence I woke up in blood soaked sheets. (it looked like I had been murdered) I had bruise on my body and scratch marks. I was sleeping alone that night. (and yes I went to the doctor I checked out just fine)

Sure there are some logical explanations like the dream where i woke up injured and bloody. A very mean prank. but my grandmother? the laughter (and yes I went to a shrink to get it looked at)

Things happen that can't be explained by science. Sometimes I don't know weather or not to just reject them because its absurd or just accept it because it did happen, and there is no denying something that DID happen.

I don't know much about the whole werewolf thing and the mental shift things, but I do believe that there is a base of truth in everything how else can one explain all these cultures from all over the world having similar stories?

[GhostBat]

I don't know much about the whole werewolf thing and the mental shift things, but I do believe that there is a base of truth in everything how else can one explain all these cultures from all over the world having similar stories?

Comparative mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_mythology) is a lot of fun. It could very well be that a lot of these human/animal myths have a similar origin and spread out as humans did. Independently or in conjunction with this idea, it's possible that people the world over have a fascination with animals. It's not surprising; they're all around us and we can't communicate with them, at least not like we can another person.

I responded to your questions about science and logic in another (http://www.werewolf.com/vb/showthread.php?p=27909#post27909) thread so as not to derail this one too much.

[RainWolf]

When I was a kid, I wanted to be a panther so bad! I could imagine I had a tail, to the point where it didn't feel like my imagination anymore.

In my opinion, there is a clear difference when someone WANTS to be an animal compared to when someone FEELS like an animal, and they are not actively thinking about it. Wanting to be an animal because you think they are cool does not a therian make.

...Phantom limb syndrome is a real, serious, and often painful disorder that many amputees have struggled with....

The absolute main issue with phantom shifting, for me, is that it must deal with a past life of some kind....

Except for those Therianthropes who feel phantom sensations and don't believe in past lives.

...I'm just saying it's really not appropriate to hijack a serious medical condition and turn it into a fantasy happy go lucky thing that you pretend you have. This kind of experience is solely the result of a very active imagination and a strong desire to be a particular animal.

It's not pretending, fantasy, make believe bullshit. The only logical reason I can think of that therians do not report having pain when they experience phantom limbs is the fact that humans were never born with the limbs to begin with. Amputees feel pain because they remember whatever traumatic event that lead them to losing their limnb. If a therian has no limb to lose then it makes sense that there shouldn't be any pain involved in feeling it. For myself, it's not a painful sensation at all. It's not debilitating nor a product of an over active imagination. It's just "there" and there is really nothing that special about it. Having a "strong desire" to be an animal doesn't make someone a therian, even if they experience phantom limbs. It's all about how you feel on the inside, rather than wishing to be an animal.

"Therians" can interpret vivid animal dreams as dream shifts, but they aren't any different than someone like me experiencing the same thing because I like a particular animal and think it would be cool to experience what life would be like as one.

Logic wins, always. :)

The difference is the fact that most real therians don't feel the way they do because we like an animal or "think it would be cool" to be one. What bothers me are people who only focus on one particular thing, such as dream shifts, or "I love steak so that makes me a wolf!" and conclude they are a therian. I believe there is a lot more to it than that. You have to look at the big picture of many different things. What kind of mind set are you in when you experience shifts? Are you actively pretending? Or is it something that happens without you thinking about? Someone thinking "Oh wolves are my most favorite animal and I LOVE bloody rare steaks and I dream of wolves so that makes me a wolf therian! RARRRRR!" It doesn't work that way at all :cool:

[Fenris_brood]

Sorry about barging my spoon when you're adressing someone else, but it's just been a good while since people posted somethin' discussable that I can't help myself.

In my opinion, there is a clear difference when someone WANTS to be an animal compared to when someone FEELS like an animal, and they are not actively thinking about it. Wanting to be an animal because you think they are cool does not a therian make.

I can't say otherwise that in your opinion there is a clear line between desire and inherent knowledge of a fact, but in reality that line is very thin if a person doesn't objectivly observe their own desires. In other words, if you ardently wish to be something that doesn't require any outer stimuli, you can immediately assume you are this thing, and with time take it as a reality. As a more definite example, it's the basic same idea as religion, you, in a way, desire it to be true, so all related to it becomes inherently real to you, without any actual physical proof that that it is true. It can lead you to believe in souls, heavens, hells, mythical beasts, different moralities on different things, all of it true to a person but all of it the result of a desire to be something, or to "accept" something as part of themselves.


Except for those Therianthropes who feel phantom sensations and don't believe in past lives.

I think Ghosts comparation in this case wasn't rightly exemplified. Although the notion of "phantom shifting" and the notion of therianthropic phantom limbs were taken from the notion of amputee phantom shifts, it's a totally different case of nervous stimuli. Amputees very commonly feel this phantom limbs because the nerve endings are still there, and sometimes fire unexpectedly, giving a sensation of a limb that isn't there. With suggested phantom limbs, that do happen outside of therianthropy in the cases of people feeling extra limbs, the anomaly is directly spiked on the central nervous system, and is often a result of psychological trauma. With the definite case of therianthropic phantom limbs, I can't even relate them surely to these disorders of when people feel extra human limbs, they are a bit more abstract and in every way completely different. I see how Ghost would expect that in order for a human to have the experience of an animal phantom limb a notion of a past life and reincarnation would have to be inherently considered, the human brain simply cannot experience something it hasn't biologically experiences before, which means that an entity would have to have had those limgs somewhere along the line in order to be able to feel them.

It's not pretending, fantasy, make believe bullshit.
With this I agree and will have to underline that I admire the particular rise of therianthropy, it's like watching a religious group rise up from a basis of technology, it's all very interesting. And although it might, and I do repeat, MIGHT all be unreal, it is not bullshit, in that case it is merely a belief to be respected.

The only logical reason I can think of that therians do not report having pain when they experience phantom limbs is the fact that humans were never born with the limbs to begin with. Amputees feel pain because they remember whatever traumatic event that lead them to losing their limnb. If a therian has no limb to lose then it makes sense that there shouldn't be any pain involved in feeling it. For myself, it's not a painful sensation at all. It's not debilitating nor a product of an over active imagination. It's just "there" and there is really nothing that special about it. Having a "strong desire" to be an animal doesn't make someone a therian, even if they experience phantom limbs. It's all about how you feel on the inside, rather than wishing to be an animal.

I think the point of pain would be a valid one to regard exactly the difference between both notions of phantom limbs. The amputee will feel pain because hte recognition that he's feeling a limb that isn't there transmits that this limb is obviously very wounded, and thus should cause some kind of either psychological or actual physical pain, I'm not as in on this subject as I would like to be to make this affirmation with solidity. In the case of a therianthropic phantom limb, the limb is actually oversouled onto the human equivalent of that limb, since most therians tend not to be able to go into abstract psychological relationships with invertebrates. So, in a way you merely feel a distortion of the limbs you already have, but in constract have none of the nerve endings to "feel" those limbs or with those limbs.

The difference is the fact that most real therians don't feel the way they do because we like an animal or "think it would be cool" to be one. What bothers me are people who only focus on one particular thing, such as dream shifts, or "I love steak so that makes me a wolf!" and conclude they are a therian. I believe there is a lot more to it than that. You have to look at the big picture of many different things. What kind of mind set are you in when you experience shifts? Are you actively pretending? Or is it something that happens without you thinking about? Someone thinking "Oh wolves are my most favorite animal and I LOVE bloody rare steaks and I dream of wolves so that makes me a wolf therian! RARRRRR!" It doesn't work that way at all :cool:
My problem with this is namely the stimuli a therian "must" feel in order to be solidly regarded as such. It breaks down into an idea of a gut feeling that you are an animal. Aside from any point I can make about specifical requirements, the simple idea of experiencing that you in some essence an animal simply does not make alot of sense to me, mostly because of the age range but mostly about human nature. Explaining this a bit more, a human does not often question objectively if he is a human or not, atleast not with a sane mind, simply because the concept is both abstract and rather useless to dwell on. In other words, people are born human, so they are raised human, so they are human and usually don't see any pointer to why they aren't in some way from the human species. From a therian point of view, something would have to cause the search for a disjointed existance that is to be an animal, and I think there would have to be further indications other than an uncomfortability with their own physical form, however I'm inclined to think that, in a way, a therianthropy with a true essence of animal would not be aware of it, or atleast, and this is the key point, would take awarance of it in a such psychological turmoiled time as adolescence, which seems to be the case of most therianthropes. I'm just saying, it's more easily defined as a hormonal search for belonging to something rather than a completely abstract notion of a split existance.

Onto add something, I really don't feel too good about these discussions because the factual basis for therianthropy is basically null, there seems to be next to no research both scientifically and psychologically on what makes a therian tik. To this I would really like that alot of therians tried to be more open about their views on a real world basis and off of the internet, and to expose themselves to psychological tests, preferably with an open mind and an acceptance of what there is to be said about their way of thinking. I just think it would both provide a vaster, most well documentated field for discussion and would evolve the therianthropic community into probably a more rational, more objective communitiy.

[RainWolf]

You do bring up a lot of good points, but I'm going to have to disagree with your statement here:

I'm just saying, it's more easily defined as a hormonal search for belonging to something rather than a completely abstract notion of a split existance.

While it's true that some therians "awaken" in their teens, quite a few actually become aware of feelings at a very young age and continue to feel that way on into their 30s and older, and already had a solid sense of belonging at an early age. At least it was this way for me. No social awkwardness here nor a traumatic childhood which might suggest the possibility of me manifesting it from something like that. In my case, I knew that a part of me felt some connection with a wolf. Most therians that I've talked to online acknowledge they are human but there is something that feels "off" to them. Some do claim to experience a sense of body dysmorphia where they feel awkward in their own bodies, but sometimes I wonder how far fetched those claims are myself. So yes, in a way it does sort of boil down to a gut feeling, but I still stand by my opinion that if someone wants to be an animal because they think it's cool, then they are not a therian in my eyes. They can claim it all they want but it doesn't make a convincing case.

I definitely agree there needs to be more research done about therianthropy. I think it would be interesting to have some kind of experiment where a therian is hooked up to EEG leads, and their brains are monitored to see which parts light up when they experience a shift. Not sure what that would mean but it might open the door to it. I really don't know if we'll know what causes it and why it affects certain people and not others. You could say the same thing about God and souls, unless there is more research done, you might as well call Christianity and other spiritual beliefs null as well. To each their own I suppose.

[Fenris_brood]

While it's true that some therians "awaken" in their teens, quite a few actually become aware of feelings at a very young age and continue to feel that way on into their 30s and older, and already had a solid sense of belonging at an early age. At least it was this way for me. No social awkwardness here nor a traumatic childhood which might suggest the possibility of me manifesting it from something like that. In my case, I knew that a part of me felt some connection with a wolf.

I'm aware that generalities fail in some individual cases, and the problem with generalizing therianthropy is that the community itself is so full of variable individuals that trying to put them all in the same sack ends up being hard. However, although most therians do claim that their childhoods were filled with animalistic tendencies, most of the time a general identification with the community is in order, and that is this "awakening". Most of the times I've seen this very well was identified during early teen years, exceptions being older people that only got in contact with the community in later years of their lives. With this, and although you say that your therianthropy manifested itself during your childhood, you almost surely can't deny that your self identification and the beggining of your search into what the condition meant came during your teenage years.

You could say the same thing about God and souls, unless there is more research done, you might as well call Christianity and other spiritual beliefs null as well. To each their own I suppose.

If I was misunderstood I apologize, but explaining myself better, I don't find any kind of beliefs null, atleast not in a general sense. I enjoy the cultural diversity religions provide and usually like reading about them, alot. I just cannot deny the facts that most scientific basis for any kind of religious belief is more often than not null, that does not however make said religion a waste of time, in the derrogatory sense.

[RainWolf]

It's true I wasn't able to do further research about therianthropy until my teens because that was when my family first got the internet in the late 90s. Before the wonders of the internet, I didn't have a word to fit what I had been feeling for years but once I found and researched more about it, it mostly confirmed what I was already experiencing and introduced me to new ideas as well.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant about beliefs. That was very helpful.