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View Full Version : Yes, I Suck: Self-Help Through Negative Thinking


UNODRAGONE
07-08-2009, 08:14 AM
I personally try to avoid positive thinking enforcement when someone is negative. The counselor I am training with is the same way and I have seen patients more likely than not man up to their problems and take control instead of being pacified and falling deeper into the abyss. Yep, you got problems, I am not going to lie and sugar coat but only you can fix them and a true friend/professional is always honest. Not in a blunt 'you suck and need to grow up' sort of way but in an empowering way. What do you guys think? Pacifying help or makes you worse?



http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1909019,00.html?cnn=yes

In the past 50 years, people with mental problems have spent untold millions of hours in therapists' offices, and millions more reading self-help books, trying to turn negative thoughts like "I never do anything right" into positive ones like "I can succeed." For many people — including well-educated, highly trained therapists, for whom "cognitive restructuring" is a central goal — the very definition of psychotherapy is the process of changing self-defeating attitudes into constructive ones.


But was Norman Vincent Peale right? Is there power in positive thinking? A study just published in the journal Psychological Science says trying to get people to think more positively can actually have the opposite effect: it can simply highlight how unhappy they are.
(See pictures of people mourning the death of Michael Jackson.)

The study's authors, Joanne Wood and John Lee of the University of Waterloo and Elaine Perunovic of the University of New Brunswick, begin with a common-sense proposition: when people hear something they don't believe, they are not only often skeptical but adhere even more strongly to their original position. A great deal of psychological research has shown this, but you need look no further than any late-night bar debate you've had with friends: when someone asserts that Sarah Palin is brilliant, or that the Yankees are the best team in baseball, or that Michael Jackson was not a freak, others not only argue the opposing position, but do so with more conviction than they actually hold. We are an argumentative species.
(See pictures of places to honor Michael Jackson.)

And so we constantly argue with ourselves. Many of us are reluctant to revise our self-judgment, especially for the better. In 1994, the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology published a paper showing that when people get feedback that they believe is overly positive, they actually feel worse, not better. If you try to tell your dim friend that he has the potential of an Einstein, he won't think he's any smarter; he will probably just disbelieve your contradictory theory, hew more closely to his own self-assessment and, in the end, feel even dumber. In one fascinating 1990s experiment demonstrating this effect — called cognitive dissonance in official terms — a team including psychologist Joel Cooper of Princeton asked participants to write hard-hearted essays opposing funding for the disabled. When these participants were later told they were compassionate, they felt even worse about what they had written.

For the new paper, Wood, Lee and Perunovic measured 68 students on their self-esteem. The students were then asked to write down their thoughts and feelings for four minutes. Every 15 seconds during those four minutes, one randomly assigned group of the students heard a bell. When they heard it, they were supposed to tell themselves, "I am a lovable person."

Those with low self-esteem — precisely the kind of people who do not respond well to positive feedback but tend to read self-help books or attend therapy sessions encouraging positive thinking — didn't feel better after those 16 bursts of self-affirmation. In fact, their self-evaluations and moods were significantly more negative than those of the people not asked to remind themselves of their lovability.
(See pictures of couples in love.)

This effect can also occur when experiments are more open-ended. The authors cite a 1991 study in which participants were asked to recall either six or 12 examples of instances when they behaved assertively. "Paradoxically," the authors write, "those in the 12-example condition rated themselves as less assertive than did those in the six-example condition. Participants apparently inferred from their difficulty retrieving 12 examples that they must not be very assertive after all."

Wood, Lee and Perunovic conclude that unfavorable thoughts about ourselves intrude very easily, especially among those of us with low self-esteem — so easily and so persistently that even when a positive alternative is presented, it just underlines how awful we believe we are.

The paper provides support for newer forms of psychotherapy that urge people to accept their negative thoughts and feelings rather than try to reject and fight them. In the fighting, we not only often fail but can also make things worse. Mindfulness and meditation techniques, in contrast, can teach people to put their shortcomings into a larger, more realistic perspective. Call it the power of negative thinking.

MorganaFang
07-08-2009, 11:40 AM
I dislike in general when there is stuff like this because it assumes one psychological method can be a blanket that tries to solve all problems. These were experiments that pretty much half assessed what power of positive thinking. Of course it's not going to work to have students in a group setting. There are factors there that are going to break down the positive reinforcement. Creating a big wall of negative thoughts prior to writing the smidgen of positive is also not effective.

The power of positive thinking is not "sugar coating" anything. How positive reinforcement works is actually acknowledging there is the problems, and then looking specifically for positive aspects that tip the scale. It's not a passive form of counseling when done correctly. That also brings up that there are multiple methods of "positive thinking".

I don't understand this power of negative thinking, I mean that sort of sounds like people are being encouraged just to only embrace their faults and not look for the positive in those faults.

There needs to a balance and for everyone that balance is going to be different. People with delusional issues that leave them to think reality sucks compared to laudy daudy land do need to (and often in aggressive language) to wake the fuck up. Their problem is that they've stopped looking for positive in reality instead of there being no good in their reality.

edit: disjointed post because I'm still trying to figure out what I just read. The experiments were just so "half" doing things. If you were to put a person in an environment that is positive for them, have them then writing, or acknowledging constantly that they're loveable I can guarantee you'd see a change in temperament.

Ex: a person who loves animals but has clinical depression, you put them on a comfy ranch. Reinforce that they're doing good there, have them doing tasks that are achievable and generate a feeling of accomplishment. This person will not be cured of course but they will start feeling better.

UNODRAGONE
07-08-2009, 12:01 PM
If you were to put a person in an environment that is positive for them, have them then writing, or acknowledging constantly that they're loveable I can guarantee you'd see a change in temperament.


Typically people who are clinically depressed lack interest in once enjoyable activities or things they loved. You can place an animal lover in a room full of animals and show them how important and loved they are and have them write about it, it still won't change their mood. The underlying problem must be resolved first, what caused the onset of depression must be tackled before 'healing' can begin or else they will just revert right back to it.

Wolf-Bone
07-08-2009, 12:06 PM
Well I'll be damned. Psychologists are finally starting to realize what we common-as-dirt folk who all desperately need their help so bad have known from early youth: negativity is usually realist thinking and positivity often requires one to detach themselves from reality to a greater degree than we are willing or even capable of. How many years and how many dollars did it take them to figure that out? Oh hell, don't bother telling me because I know I can't count that many on all my fingers and toes and my lil' head can't handle all those big numbers.

MorganaFang
07-08-2009, 12:44 PM
Well I'll be damned. Psychologists are finally starting to realize what we common-as-dirt folk who all desperately need their help so bad have known from early youth: negativity is usually realist thinking and positivity often requires one to detach themselves from reality to a greater degree than we are willing or even capable of. How many years and how many dollars did it take them to figure that out? Oh hell, don't bother telling me because I know I can't count that many on all my fingers and toes and my lil' head can't handle all those big numbers.

Positive can be realist too, it's all dependent on what you're willing (as an individual) to accept as a positive thing.

Takes a lot of work though to wear a lot of people down to thinking that way.

Also


Typically people who are clinically depressed lack interest in once enjoyable activities or things they loved. You can place an animal lover in a room full of animals and show them how important and loved they are and have them write about it, it still won't change their mood.

You missed something...
This person will not be cured of course but they will start feeling better.

Actually for a lot of people clinically depressed it will change their mood. Will it solve all their problems no. And yes they will probably have days where they wake up and they don't want to get out of bed. If no one is putting in the effort to help them be reinforced with positive feedback.

You also seemed to miss this bit:

have them doing tasks that are achievable and generate a feeling of accomplishment

It's a method of keeping a person busy so that don't have "time to be depressed". For many people the reason for clinical depression is dissatisfaction with their lives. I'm not acknowledging those depressed for traumatizing reasons because obviously treatment is going to be more intensive. Generally they cannot do "self help" either.


You're also proving my point, things cannot go only partially. For most clinically depressed people there needs to be constant work done and not just one way but have a balance. Acknowledge problem but seek out ways of fixing it, and start. Immersion is a start.

However in cases of light depression, like say a psychology class conducting an experiment. Having an average Stu Dent be immersed in something they feel better about will make the negative thoughts begin to dissipate.

Vendetta
07-08-2009, 12:52 PM
Typically people who are clinically depressed lack interest in once enjoyable activities or things they loved. You can place an animal lover in a room full of animals and show them how important and loved they are and have them write about it, it still won't change their mood. The underlying problem must be resolved first, what caused the onset of depression must be tackled before 'healing' can begin or else they will just revert right back to it.
Pretty much ALL clinical psychologists/psychiatrists would agree that the underlying problems need to be addressed before a patient can get better. Only ridiculous self-help books/gurus and so-called "life-coaches" tell people that positive thinking is some sort of panacea.

Conversely, I don't think this "negative" thinking helps much either.

Tempest
07-08-2009, 02:06 PM
Typically people who are clinically depressed lack interest in once enjoyable activities or things they loved. You can place an animal lover in a room full of animals and show them how important and loved they are and have them write about it, it still won't change their mood. The underlying problem must be resolved first, what caused the onset of depression must be tackled before 'healing' can begin or else they will just revert right back to it.

I disagree. Yes, depression comes with a lack of enthusiasm for pretty much everything, but therapy is deeper than throwing pills at someone (unless you're a psychiatrist) or talking about how that makes you feel. It also involves changing the patient's perception and doing things like exercising, staying busy, positive thinking. These things, used together with discussion and perhaps medication, do help--I know because I have suffered from depression in the past.

Well I'll be damned. Psychologists are finally starting to realize what we common-as-dirt folk who all desperately need their help so bad have known from early youth: negativity is usually realist thinking and positivity often requires one to detach themselves from reality to a greater degree than we are willing or even capable of. How many years and how many dollars did it take them to figure that out? Oh hell, don't bother telling me because I know I can't count that many on all my fingers and toes and my lil' head can't handle all those big numbers.

As an optimist myself, I have to disagree. Yes, I'm a positive person, but I'm not living in a world of unicorns and rainbows. There's a medium between pessimism and optimism, that's what I think you're thinking of. Pessimism is not realism because it ignores the good in favor of the bad.

Shaun
07-08-2009, 05:12 PM
I honestly think it depends on the individual. For me, if I am depressed or angry I need to vent or find a way to get it out. You come to me all happy and pointing everything out that is good is just going to annoy me. At the same time, I don't want someone to be all 'emo' with me either. I'd rather just have someone to listen to me vent, help me with a plan on getting over whatever is causing my mood and move on.

DarkHunter
07-16-2009, 01:23 AM
I find that there is such a thing as realistic optimism. Believing that things can and will turn out for the better isn't delusion. It's simply an attitude one can take. Failures don't become black holes, another "Oh thats my life/That's what I get/that's what always happens to me". Rather they become setbacks to be overcome.

Sure maybe lying to somone isn't a great tool to help people put their mental state in order, but I'm not aware that psychologists are stupid enough to believe that it is. Though I could be wrong about that. But there's nothing wrong with considering things in their life from a postive point of view.