Real Werewolf Conversation

[MorganaFang]

General consensus in our current stage of the board is that they do not exist. Or at the very least, not at the same level as commonly depicted in media.

A lot of people have grown up on werewolf.com (feel free to laugh if you must) and werewolf.com has grown up with them.

It was never actually intended to support the belief that real werewolves (or other crazy critters) actually existed. Yet... Like many people... Werewolf went through it's phases with it's members.

There was a time when more people supported the belief, then a time when people were aggressively opposed to the possibility of real werewolves.

Now ww.com has been hacked, and we're trying to make things better.

Though werewolf.com is not really about real werewolves this does not mean we cannot discuss this topic in a constructive manner.

Let's motivate people to discuss actively why or why not werewolves exist.

I would also like to implore members not to flame or try make this a thread for ridicule. I, personally, will probably overlook camo-trolls but the shit like before needs to not happen.

At the same time, I am definitely not saying pussy-foot it either. Be as direct as possibly if you're in disagreement. Just do not be an asshole. Goes for tr00 w3r3s, believers, and nonbelievers.

In the words of Aretha Franklin r-e-s-p-e-c-t! Lame I know but come on, a lot of us are adults and young adults we should be able to have good discussions even if they're somewhat ridiculous.

Goal of thread: Do werewolves exist? Why or why not? Please provide as much proof as possible or at the very least descriptions with citation to credible sources.LOL





Sidenote to those under 18: Please please, as one young adult online to others... If someone pm's you claiming to be a tr00 w3r3 or knowing how to change into one... Ignore them or report them. Internet is serious business with stalkers and predators. If you want to hear a story about it sometime you are free to pm me.


*please report any posts that are offensive or too out there before doing online vigilantism. Thanks.

[Tempest]

A lot of people have grown up on werewolf.com (feel free to laugh if you must)

LOL! Oh wait...

I had a great theory going for how werewolves could exist, but it was lost in the hack because I'm lame and didn't save a copy of it. I came up with a somewhat scientific explanation for how werewolves could get the energy to change form.

That theory was mostly done in fun, but I would seriously consider the possibility of werewolves existing if I could figure out how they could generate the new cells required for transformation and how they could avoid overheating. This doesn't mean I would become a believer that werewolves are out there right this minute, but that it would be (theoretically) possible.

I'll try to reconstruct that theory I had going, but I'll have to drag my anatomy & physiology notes out because like 50% of it has already slipped from my memory. >.< I probably won't have citations though since it's all from class notes. Hope that's okay.

[kathryn]

I really enjoy howstuffworks.com (http://science.howstuffworks.com/werewolf.htm)

(Notice: before you make an assumption, this is not a post just advertising the site. This is a post giving a link to something that deals with the topic at hand)

[Chiron Jackal]

I don't have any strong conviction that werewolves exist. I am, however, open to the possibility.

Science can't explain them; well, science cannot yet explain everything, and medical and scientific "facts" that we once held have been proven wrong before. Do I think any of that is particularly likely in the case of a werewolf? Well, not really. I'm just not completely closed to the idea.

I'm much more likely to believe in werewolves as a result of someone shifting by means of magic. Even as a magician that is also something I find to be quite unlikely for two big reasons.

1 - While the actual functions of it are simple (in a nutshell; make a REALLY dense astral body) actually pulling it off correctly would take a lot of skill and effort and it's entirely plausible that there are no magicians up to the task.

2 - ... This isn't some kind of uber-common Wiccan magic stuff. This is hermetic magic dealing to some degree with qabbalah. What are the odds that someone who would study that would decide upon this usage for it?

If you wish to challenge my belief in magic, go right ahead. In another thread. I personally find little reason to challenge it within the confines of this thread; for fuck's sake, we're talking about actual werewolves. It's not as if magic is strangely out of place in this otherwise completely reasonable, logical, and scientifically sound thread.

I'm open to questions, so long as no one is an ass or asserts that I think werewolves exist.

[Klark]

As far as the possibility of shifting werewolves go, I'm very apt to believe that if, and that's a big if, a transformation could be attained, I believe you'd be stuck that way.

[Vendetta]

If someone could give a reasonable and scientific explanation as to how one could be a werewolf that didn't involve violating the laws of physics and biology, I'd be game. So far though, no joy.

[J.L.R.]

Do werewolves exist?

Interesting question really, because so much of the answer lies upon your definition of what exactly a werewolf is.

If you wish to dive into the realm of the fantastic, where people can readily shape shift into world saving anthropromorphic wolves... then the likely hood of true existence is rather slim...

However, if you take the meaning of the word werewolf, as a metaphor for the two sides of the human animal, one side that is man and one side that is beast, you can almost state that we all or in some shape or form, werewolves. Logic and Instinct working together as a whole. Two sides to the same coin, ect... ect... ect...

There is also the possibility of a psycological manifestation of werewolfism, where an individual literally subconsciously creates an entire separate and yet integral image of his or herself, as a wolf.

This though, in my own experiences, is completely involunentary. The individual in question isn't a "fan" per say, nor wishes to be the way they are. For whatever reason, their minds are wired different. I've personally have never been a fan of group "Howls" or anything of the sort, as to me, being with a group of "wannabe anythings" is like going to a super hero party where people dream about being a superhero, never thinking about the consequences of such a life. In short, they want it because they think it will be cool, not truly understanding how hard it really would be to cope with such a daily challenge.

My own expierences, as I stated in the last thread, derive from dealing with my dad, and the journey I took to understand him. As a small child, I saw him as a wolf in my dreams, but of course, he never p-shifted, and had there been that possibility, I for one would not be talking about it on this board, or any, as being genetically related, it would put a huge target on my head. :rockon:

So in my dad's case, I can readily say werewolves exist. Are there other people like him... probably...

[Shaun]

I'm not a believer in anything mythological but I am open to it provided you give me firm evidence. I do have an easier time believing that vampires exist more than werewolves. Not the vampires of folklore, but people who actually get off on sucking someone else's blood. I've seen that shit at a club I use to frequent so I believe anyone is stupid enough to try out fantasies but that they are just that, fantasies.

[Chiron Jackal]

Not the vampires of folklore, but people who actually get off on sucking someone else's blood.

That's not vampirism, that's a blood fetish. Comparing those is like comparing werewolves and furries.

Believability is an issue, of course, but this is vampirism. (http://www.sanguinarius.org/vampire.shtml)

[J.L.R.]

That's not vampirism, that's a blood fetish. Comparing those is like comparing werewolves and furries.

Believability is an issue, of course, but this is vampirism. (http://www.sanguinarius.org/vampire.shtml)

Yeah, diddo, and the fact that werewolves eat furries for breakfast! :beerchug:

[Tempest]

Okay, here's my theory for how werewolves can get enough energy to transform. This is going to require a lot of background information, and I've tried to make it as easy to understand as possible, so bear with me. Also, I'm nowhere near an expert on anatomy and physiology, so keep in mind that there's probably more to this than I know. All this information is from my notes from A&P I, but I'm sure it's online somewhere if you care enough to look.

To my knowledge, we have two ways of generating extra energy during fight-or-flight: the creatin-phosphate pathway and glycolysis.

The creatin-phosphate pathway
When we're resting/sleeping, our muscles make excess adenosine triphosphate (ATP), which is our energy source. However, ATP is very volatile and can't remain in the cell as ATP. This is where the enzyme creatin kinase comes in. Creatin kinase breaks the ATP into adenosine diphosphate (ADP) and a phosphate ion (basically, it just takes a phosphate off the ATP). Our bodies don't want to lose the phosphate, so we attach it to a protein called creatine, making creatine-Pi (Pi stands for the phosphate ion).

When our fight-or-flight response is initiated, we can reverse this reaction with lightning speed: reattaching the phosphate to the ADP, making ATP, which we can use as energy. This can give us enough energy for 15-30 seconds. In a werewolf's case, maybe they make excess ATP all the time, storing it as ADP+Pi, then reversing the reaction when they need to transform.

Glycolysis
This is the first part of cellular respiration (the process of making ATP). In glycolysis, our bodies take one glucose and turn it into two pyruvates (pyruvates are irrelevant to my theory, so I'm not going to go into them). Doing this results in two ATPs. We can run glycolysis very quickly. We don't even require oxygen to do this (the rest of cellular respiration requires oxygen).

During out fight-or-flight response, we run this very quickly to generate an extra 30-40 seconds of energy. Glycolysis and the creatin-phosphate pathway are part of why you get a huge burst of energy when you're scared! Maybe a werewolf would be able to run this reaction even faster than a human, or would be able to make more ATP from it. Maybe they could run glycolysis and the creatin-phostphate pathway at will, or maybe the full moon would trigger it instead of/in addition to fear.

Of course, running glycolysis for a long time would use a lot of glucose, which would create an enormous appetite...

[Moreau]

Your beginning theory is interesting. Hopefully you will be able to salvage the rest. ^^

I am a simple dreamer. While the werewolf legend is an impossibility, or so it would seem (for the sake of objectivity), there will always be that little tiny part of me that goes "what if?"

Okay, I'm interested, what else have you got??



I'm a dreamer but not a fool. Until there is any scientific backing, I am not a believer. Not that I won't search forever.

[Piscean Mora]

Okay, here's my theory for how werewolves can get enough energy to transform. This is going to require a lot of background information, and I've tried to make it as easy to understand as possible, so bear with me. Also, I'm nowhere near an expert on anatomy and physiology, so keep in mind that there's probably more to this than I know. All this information is from my notes from A&P I, but I'm sure it's online somewhere if you care enough to look.

To my knowledge, we have two ways of generating extra energy during fight-or-flight: the creatin-phosphate pathway and glycolysis.

The creatin-phosphate pathway
When we're resting/sleeping, our muscles make excess adenosine triphosphate (ATP), which is our energy source. However, ATP is very volatile and can't remain in the cell as ATP. This is where the enzyme creatin kinase comes in. Creatin kinase breaks the ATP into adenosine diphosphate (ADP) and a phosphate ion (basically, it just takes a phosphate off the ATP). Our bodies don't want to lose the phosphate, so we attach it to a protein called creatine, making creatine-Pi (Pi stands for the phosphate ion).

When our fight-or-flight response is initiated, we can reverse this reaction with lightning speed: reattaching the phosphate to the ADP, making ATP, which we can use as energy. This can give us enough energy for 15-30 seconds. In a werewolf's case, maybe they make excess ATP all the time, storing it as ADP+Pi, then reversing the reaction when they need to transform.

Glycolysis
This is the first part of cellular respiration (the process of making ATP). In glycolysis, our bodies take one glucose and turn it into two pyruvates (pyruvates are irrelevant to my theory, so I'm not going to go into them). Doing this results in two ATPs. We can run glycolysis very quickly. We don't even require oxygen to do this (the rest of cellular respiration requires oxygen).

During out fight-or-flight response, we run this very quickly to generate an extra 30-40 seconds of energy. Glycolysis and the creatin-phosphate pathway are part of why you get a huge burst of energy when you're scared! Maybe a werewolf would be able to run this reaction even faster than a human, or would be able to make more ATP from it. Maybe they could run glycolysis and the creatin-phostphate pathway at will, or maybe the full moon would trigger it instead of/in addition to fear.

Of course, running glycolysis for a long time would use a lot of glucose, which would create an enormous appetite...

That is extremely interesting.

I think that if werewolves could exist on that cellular level, and say, they had the ability to rapidly heal or had prolonged life, perhaps they also would have more cells than a regular human or a wolf on their own. Stronger cells too, to be able to endure such a process. Maybe the change is initiated as you have explained, but there are also dormant cells as well, cells that come into action when the response is activated and take over. Then the previously active cells (i.e the human cells) become dormant as inactive ones take over. To have all those extra cells, another side effect would likely be regeneration on a faster level, or a longer life span. But I don't think both would be possible, as the cells would wear out if they were forced to duplicate that many times.

That theory of yours is very interesting Tempest.

[MorganaFang]

I'm a dreamer but not a fool. Until there is any scientific backing, I am not a believer. Not that I won't search forever.

See that's the thing a lot of people who argue in favor of "tr00 w3r3's" take for granted. Even if there are those of us who outright say Werewolves are not real it doesn't mean some of us don't still look for ways they could exist or an explanation of why they exist in our mythology.

I don't really believe that transformation is possible but I do think that there could be some kind animal out there that is like a large Mustelidae that people are confusing as a werewolf. Like a huge Badger who only appears wolfmanish because they have "hands" similar to people, can stand on their hind legs and look beastly.

[Moreau]

Yep. Misidentification and exaggerated stories are gigantic players.

[Vendetta]

Even if there are those of us who outright say Werewolves are not real it doesn't mean some of us don't still look for ways they could exist or an explanation of why they exist in our mythology.
To me, the mythology question is far more interesting and relevant than half-baked or misunderstood/misapplied psuedo-science.

[Wolfsangel]

All interesting. I would say, having had several manic depressive friends, that the human mind is capable of great states of excitation that can cause behaviour that resembles a werewolf - invulnerability to harm, great strength, very bad breath.
It doesn't seem impossible that people like the viking Ulfhednar (berserkers) could find a way to tap these states. They work very well for combatants in a warrior culture where men pick individual fights on a battlefield, less so for soldiers.
As for actual transformation - obviously not, I'd say. However, that was in the past. In an era of glowing mice, transgenetic pigs and cloning, of course it's possible. In the near future it might be possible to go to a gene lab with your human egg and sperm and pick the wolf traits you want. You might not be able to transform etc but, with luck and a few friends, you might get to take down an elk. If I was going to cross with any animal, though, it'd be a crocodile. I could keep growing. In about 30 years I could make a fortune in pro basketball and eat my dinner underwater. What could be better than that?

[wolf shadow storm]

arnt real, are real God you people are Blinde to all that is around. I AM A WEREWOLF!!! Lough if you must but I am. My "human name" is Logan Smith but as is trudition for my people (were creatures) we shed your old names when around other were creatures My true name is Wolf Eldritch ShadowStorm of the Shadowstorm Clan. we are all around you and you never notice. we are far more civilized then most people think. Thou I still live with my human parents they are compleatly unawer of my true power and being. and I think that we should stand up and show our selves to the world as we once did but the Tride elders think other wise.

[DarkWolf]

Wolf Shadow Storm

Okay, since deleting your posts is getting tiring, I issue the challenge.

This thread require proof, citations, and evidence to back up any claims (either way) and theories and to discuss things in depth.

To avoid deletion of this post and an infraction for defying forum rule: Please provide such proof to your claims. Can you provide a homemade video of your transformation? Anything at all?

I give you 1 week. If you require more time please let me know and explain why.

This message is being posted here mainly because you disabled PMs and because it serves for anyone else following your pattern - the thread calls for proof so if making a claim, provide some.

[J.L.R.]

arnt real, are real God you people are Blinde to all that is around. I AM A WEREWOLF!!! Lough if you must but I am. My "human name" is Logan Smith but as is trudition for my people (were creatures) we shed your old names when around other were creatures My true name is Wolf Eldritch ShadowStorm of the Shadowstorm Clan. we are all around you and you never notice. we are far more civilized then most people think. Thou I still live with my human parents they are compleatly unawer of my true power and being. and I think that we should stand up and show our selves to the world as we once did but the Tride elders think other wise.

Wow... all of those really nice wolfy powers and yet you still can't spell or at the very least use spell checker...

Logan, you might have misunderstood this thread... If you want to role play, we already have a few role playing games going on.

If you want to talk about the old lore, you're at the right place, but thus far you haven't proven anything, other than your lack of knowledge to ACTUAL legends, and your lack of spelling and grammar capabilities.

Now, you are your friends can play were-superheroes all you want, but the truth is, that doesn't make you a real werewolf. While you may suffer from ADD, I doubt you are suffering from true lycanthropy.

[Vendetta]

Wow... all of those really nice wolfy powers and yet you still can't spell or at the very least use spell checker...
His grammar/spelling is fine, just 500 years out of date. :D

[Wolfsangel]

How well do you expect a half-wolf to be able to spell?
I went about this scientifically and approached the nearest I have in my home to a wolf - my dog. His spelling is utterly rubbish.
As the wolf consciousness eats the human consciousness then spelling, grammer and simple arithmetic go by the board. It's the price a werewolf pays, I'm afraid.
On an different note, my mother once critcised Jack the Ripper's grammar, which I thought was missing the point.

[J.L.R.]

How well do you expect a half-wolf to be able to spell?
I went about this scientifically and approached the nearest I have in my home to a wolf - my dog. His spelling is utterly rubbish.
As the wolf consciousness eats the human consciousness then spelling, grammer and simple arithmetic go by the board. It's the price a werewolf pays, I'm afraid.
On an different note, my mother once critcised Jack the Ripper's grammar, which I thought was missing the point.

So are you saying that all werewolves can't spell? I can see the excuses now... "Jimmy, your spelling is horrid!" Jimmy replies, "I'm sorry teacher, I'm a werewolf, thus I can't spell". :cool:

Yet that said werewolf retains enough intellect to hunt down and post on a BBS?

Then again, just because you can post on a BBS, doesn't mean your intelligent. :D

[Vendetta]

I am Wolf Eldritch ShadowStorm of the Shadowstorm Clan, and I am an immortal

Oh man, the more I keep reading his post the more I keep laughing. Please DW, don't delete this guy, I haven't this big of a laugh in a while.

[zeroxwolfx]

That depends on how what you mean by werewolf. Do you mean a human being physically changing into a half man half wolf beast? Metaphorically, if we dive deeper into the idea of the werewolf, we need to pull things apart and look at it piece by piece.

Step-by-step then, someone is bitten by a monster, during the full moon they turn into a snarling beast that is half animal, which has no control over itself and seems to desire only basic primal needs, the need to feed, the need to hunt, and the need to kill (possibly other primal needs too if your into that sort of thing)

Lets look at the first phase of this series of events, someone is bitten by a monster. This could indicate some sort of underlying psychological trauma. As I would only assume that being bitten by a werewolf and surviving would be, to say the least, traumatic. As we now know thanks to modern psychology, emotionally, and mentally traumatic events can lead to a slew of other problems.

The next phase is, the said bitten individual changes during the full moon. This is somewhat similar to the first one of you think about it. Lets look at a real life scenario. Someone as a child witnesses their mother being beaten by their father, they are of course traumatized by it, but here's the kicker, they live a normal life until one day, they get married, and one day something sets them off (the full moon) and they too hit their wife.

The final phase, and probably the most exciting one, is that the individual changes into a snarling canine, or canine-like creature, raging with little or no control over its primal urges. The key in this one is change, the snapping, the breakdown. This phase, this "beast within" shows us something about all of us.

In a way we are all werewolves, nothing more than animals at our core, no more spectacular or special than any other animal on the planet. And our entire perception of species superiority is based on little more than ideas, made up theories and myth. Deep down inside every individual is a monster, is that nasty little wolf who's driven by primal instincts to hunt, to kill, to eat, to fuck. Most of us only get little glimpses of our werewolves, sometimes more so than others, but we have the ability to become "werewolves" and in each one of us is a snarling monster waiting to break free of our feeble mental cage that we, through socialization and evolution have caged.

[Vendetta]

That depends on how what you mean by werewolf. Do you mean a human being physically changing into a half man half wolf beast? Metaphorically, if we dive deeper into the idea of the werewolf, we need to pull things apart and look at it piece by piece.

Step-by-step then, someone is bitten by a monster, during the full moon they turn into a snarling beast that is half animal, which has no control over itself and seems to desire only basic primal needs, the need to feed, the need to hunt, and the need to kill (possibly other primal needs too if your into that sort of thing)

Lets look at the first phase of this series of events, someone is bitten by a monster. This could indicate some sort of underlying psychological trauma. As I would only assume that being bitten by a werewolf and surviving would be, to say the least, traumatic. As we now know thanks to modern psychology, emotionally, and mentally traumatic events can lead to a slew of other problems.

The next phase is, the said bitten individual changes during the full moon. This is somewhat similar to the first one of you think about it. Lets look at a real life scenario. Someone as a child witnesses their mother being beaten by their father, they are of course traumatized by it, but here's the kicker, they live a normal life until one day, they get married, and one day something sets them off (the full moon) and they too hit their wife.

The final phase, and probably the most exciting one, is that the individual changes into a snarling canine, or canine-like creature, raging with little or no control over its primal urges. The key in this one is change, the snapping, the breakdown. This phase, this "beast within" shows us something about all of us.
What you are describing is just pretty much psychosis. And in fact there is already clinical lycanthropy which is a mental illness exactly as you described. So yeah, you're not making some insightful revelations here kiddo.

In a way we are all werewolves, nothing more than animals at our core, no more spectacular or special than any other animal on the planet.
Wouldn't that make us more like wolves, not werewolves?

And our entire perception of species superiority is based on little more than ideas, made up theories and myth.
Really? And NOT on our ability to reason, create and change our world to suit us? Because I'm pretty sure no other animals can do all of those things.

Deep down inside every individual is a monster, is that nasty little wolf who's driven by primal instincts to hunt, to kill, to eat, to fuck. Most of us only get little glimpses of our werewolves, sometimes more so than others, but we have the ability to become "werewolves" and in each one of us is a snarling monster waiting to break free of our feeble mental cage that we, through socialization and evolution have caged.
This would probably make for great fiction or heavy metal song lyrics, but in actuality not only are humans social animals, but so are wolves. Also, our mental abilities are quite the opposite of a cage, since without them we would be nothing more than "snarling monsters" which seems to me a greater limitation, or "cage" if you will.

[Necro Mortis]

This is getting sad...

Which in turn makes me feel better.

[zeroxwolfx]

Really? And NOT on our ability to reason, create and change our world to suit us? Because I'm pretty sure no other animals can do all of those things.

Granted, however, our rise to the ultimate species of the planet is based mainly off of chance, granted, we managed to survive an ice-age and a few other cataclysmic world events, but then again so did many other animals What I'm saying is that we are not above nature in the absolute sense, we have over time learned to adapt and survive to many of natures challenges, sure, but we should never forget that it was nature who allowed our star, our very planet to be in the exact position from the sun to support life, and to allow us to evolve and prosper to were we are now. Nature, in its primal form, has been the beginning, and will be the end of our species, and in this way, we are no more significant than any other species, and like them, we cannot escape it.

[J.L.R.]

In response to both of your posts Zero...

Let me clear this up for you right off the bat... Nowhere in actual werewolf related lore of ANY kind does a man or woman become a werewolf by infection via a bite. That is entirely Hollywood fabrication.

Also note, in the old lore it wasn't the wolf instinct that made the werewolf a murderer, in most cases the human was already a murderer, who used the guise of a wolf to commit crimes. It wasn't the wolf that made him or her a murderer, but the wickedness of the man or woman's heart.

There are a few legends where human's turned wolves actually tried to do good deeds and help people as a means to restore a human connection. This leads me to one of my fav legends, and that is of St. Natalis' curse

Saint Natalis turned an entire town into wolves, after the said town profained a religious holiday. Of the towns people was a husband and wife. During their time as wolves, the wife becomes very ill to the point of near death. The husband not wanting his mate to die just like an animal in the woods, braves a chance meeting with a priest, and begs the priest to give his dying wife her last rites. The priest is afraid at first, but was so impressed by the wolf's devotion, that he agreed to meet the dying wolfess. Sure enough, just as the male wolf stated, he found a dying female wolf. Upon giving her, her last rites, the fur of the wolf folded away revealing the body of an old woman. She dies and the male wolf, her husband, protects the priest all the way back to his monestary.

If humanity was reduced to nothing but our instincts, we would be no more destructive than any other wild animal, because that is exactly what we would be. It is plain old human wickedness that creates evil contraptions and enacts evil deeds, not the animal.

Also note, natural forces are a part of the shaping process, but in themselves do not have a conscious to pick or choose. Your last post almost gives deity like qualities to something that isn't a god, period. Of course, by my beliefs, there was Divine intervention in our evolution, and thus why we are where we are now, but that is another thread all of its own...

[kathryn]

Textbook definition of lyncanthropy might mean someone who believes that they are a werewolf or werecreature and they exhibit wolf like characteristics, perhaps even hallucinations of their time as a wolf. These situations could progress to the point where the person may dress in animal skins and attack humans, though I don't have any cases of that happening on hand. ^_^;

Besides this, there are other cases were a person may resemble a wolf-man, such as if the person has hypertrichosis (a genetic disorder connected to the X chromosome, where a person has rapid hair growth all over his body, including on the parts of the face that don't normally grow hair). Other cases where people may seem like werewolves could include those with hallucinations, rabies, or even wild dogs and wolves who have become aggressive towards humans.

These cases above may have lead others to create myths about men who changed into wolves. But none of them are really werewolves.

Simple fact? There is no such thing as a werewolf, and those who believe themselves to be one are in need of mental help, especially if they progress to the point where the will attack another person because they "couldn't control their animal instincts".

As an extra note, I mentioned above that a person might dress up in animal skins and attack other humans. This might have been more common hundreds of years ago when humans worshiped the nature and different animals. If their deity was, say, a bear, such as in the movie, the 13 Warrior, the people might be convinced to dress in bear fur and attack other humans, like bears sometimes do. If a group of people worshiped wolves, they might to the same.

Even though I took the example from a fictional movie, I don't think it lost its credibility, especially since we're talking about werewolves.

[Vendetta]

Granted, however, our rise to the ultimate species of the planet is based mainly off of chance, granted, we managed to survive an ice-age and a few other cataclysmic world events, but then again so did many other animals What I'm saying is that we are not above nature in the absolute sense, we have over time learned to adapt and survive to many of natures challenges, sure, but we should never forget that it was nature who allowed our star, our very planet to be in the exact position from the sun to support life, and to allow us to evolve and prosper to were we are now. Nature, in its primal form, has been the beginning, and will be the end of our species, and in this way, we are no more significant than any other species, and like them, we cannot escape it.
The problem I have with this is that you're making humanity out to be outside of or somehow not a part of nature. This is just not true. And also, I'd say we ARE more significant than other most other species on this planet than for no other reason than the fact that we ARE cognizant of our place in the universe (or lack thereof.)


@ J.L.R. regarding werewolf lore and mythology, I'd like to think that the cinematic lore of werewolves has been around so long, and the fact that there's so much of it, that I'd be willing to consider it as much as I'd consider older folklore. I mean sure, a lot of the cinematic lore is invented wholecloth, but then so are a lot of the original legends.

[J.L.R.]

The problem I have with this is that you're making humanity out to be outside of or somehow not a part of nature. This is just not true. And also, I'd say we ARE more significant than other most other species on this planet than for no other reason than the fact that we ARE cognizant of our place in the universe (or lack thereof.)


@ J.L.R. regarding werewolf lore and mythology, I'd like to think that the cinematic lore of werewolves has been around so long, and the fact that there's so much of it, that I'd be willing to consider it as much as I'd consider older folklore. I mean sure, a lot of the cinematic lore is invented wholecloth, but then so are a lot of the original legends.

So are you saying that in 100 years sparkling vampires will be accepted as legitiment vampire lore? :p

In truth, I think there is a huge difference between ancient lore and hollywood fabrication. With Hollywood it is purposeful alteration for basis of story structure (or in most cases, the lack there of), whereas in old lore it was more or less, the misunderstanding of mental disease, science, and wolves in particular. In short, in old lore, I don't think they were purposely creating fictional stories. It wasn't their intent, per say.

With Hollywood, the contrivences, such as what Curt Siodmak created for the Wolf-Man, was completely for the purpose of telling a good story, and nothing more.

Incidentel fiction vs. deliberate fiction

[Vendetta]

Incidentel fiction vs. deliberate fiction
My point wasn't how they come about, but how much they permeate public conciousness. I'm sure you could find more people that would explain vampires in an Rice-ian or Meyers-esque way, than say the traditional nosferatu version of medieval vampires.

Also, a lot of monster stories and folklore were parables, and one could make a decent argument that so are a lot of Hollwood creature features.

[McKitty]

So are you saying that in 100 years sparkling vampires will be accepted as legitiment vampire lore? :p


I should shoot you where you stand for saying that.

[zeroxwolfx]

The problem I have with this is that you're making humanity out to be outside of or somehow not a part of nature. This is just not true. And also, I'd say we ARE more significant than other most other species on this planet than for no other reason than the fact that we ARE cognizant of our place in the universe (or lack thereof.)


It must have come across wrong then, I was trying to say how we were NOT outside of nature, despite us being slightly more significant than other species on this planet.

[J.L.R.]

My point wasn't how they come about, but how much they permeate public conciousness. I'm sure you could find more people that would explain vampires in an Rice-ian or Meyers-esque way, than say the traditional nosferatu version of medieval vampires.

Also, a lot of monster stories and folklore were parables, and one could make a decent argument that so are a lot of Hollwood creature features.

I don't think the "Beast of Le Gevoudan" the Trial of Peter Stubbe, Grenier, and such were parables.

Little Red Riding Hood, yes, but for the most part I would argue that the stories past down, were anything but parables. They weren't telling moral stories (at least from my studies) but giving warnings. Were their exaggerations, probably, but I don't think they were purposely trying to create a made up story. They just didn't understand what they were seeing and superstition superceeded logical thinking, during most of these time periods... well that and ergot poisioning. :)

The greater question is, should Hollywood lore be considered part of the Werewolf lore cannon... I still disagree with this. On a fictional level, we could consider a multitude of fictional mythology for whatever is needed, but on an academic level, fiction isn't mythology.

If we were to even consider including it as legitimit mythos, then what is to stop people from saying that "Jedi" is a legit religion, or... Well in Britian, apparently it is... but do you get what I'm saying?

In the old lore, people passed down those stories, because they really believed what was happening was happening. In Hollywood, the only people believing what is happening is happening, are the characters on screen...

[Vendetta]

I don't think the "Beast of Le Gevoudan" the Trial of Peter Stubbe, Grenier, and such were parables.

Little Red Riding Hood, yes, but for the most part I would argue that the stories past down, were anything but parables. They weren't telling moral stories (at least from my studies) but giving warnings. Were their exaggerations, probably, but I don't think they were purposely trying to create a made up story. They just didn't understand what they were seeing and superstition superceeded logical thinking, during most of these time periods... well that and ergot poisioning. :)
Well OK, not just parables, but also cautionary tales. But again, my point still stands.

The greater question is, should Hollywood lore be considered part of the Werewolf lore cannon... I still disagree with this. On a fictional level, we could consider a multitude of fictional mythology for whatever is needed, but on an academic level, fiction isn't mythology.
But mythology IS fiction. All myths, legends and folktales are is traditional fictional stories (albeit some are loosely based on fact) that have been around for a long time.

If we were to even consider including it as legitimit mythos, then what is to stop people from saying that "Jedi" is a legit religion, or... Well in Britian, apparently it is... but do you get what I'm saying?
No actually, because now you're comparing religious belief to fiction and myth.

In the old lore, people passed down those stories, because they really believed what was happening was happening. In Hollywood, the only people believing what is happening is happening, are the characters on screen...
I'm not sure I buy this. If people really believed these things, I would think they would be part of codified beliefs rather than just folktales or fables.

In fact I think you can make a VERY good argument that modern fictional films and literature ARE our current version of folklore and mythology.

[Ulfstan]

Was anyone else reminded of Donna Boyd's novel The Passion by this post? I was. Also, this guy's a troll.

arnt real, are real God you people are Blinde to all that is around. I AM A WEREWOLF!!! Lough if you must but I am. My "human name" is Logan Smith but as is trudition for my people (were creatures) we shed your old names when around other were creatures My true name is Wolf Eldritch ShadowStorm of the Shadowstorm Clan. we are all around you and you never notice. we are far more civilized then most people think. Thou I still live with my human parents they are compleatly unawer of my true power and being. and I think that we should stand up and show our selves to the world as we once did but the Tride elders think other wise.

[J.L.R.]

Well OK, not just parables, but also cautionary tales. But again, my point still stands.


But mythology IS fiction. All myths, legends and folktales are is traditional fictional stories (albeit some are loosely based on fact) that have been around for a long time.


No actually, because now you're comparing religious belief to fiction and myth.


I'm not sure I buy this. If people really believed these things, I would think they would be part of codified beliefs rather than just folktales or fables.

In fact I think you can make a VERY good argument that modern fictional films and literature ARE our current version of folklore and mythology.

Again I disagree... I have friends in the paranormal literature realm, such as Brad Steiger (who just got voted America's top paranormal writer) and Alexandra Holzer, daughter of famed Hanz Holzer (paraphsycologist who worked the Amitty Horror case). All the writers I know, and they know make a huge distintion between real mythology and lore, vs. Hollywood fabrication. I would wager that if you were in a mythology class in college, you wouldn't be able to use movies as a basis for your study, unless it was comparative.

In short academia, for the most part, would differenciate between mythology and lore, vs what is on the boob tube...

[Ulfstan]

I should shoot you where you stand for saying that.

OMGs please do. :banghead:

[Vendetta]

In short academia, for the most part, would differenciate between mythology and lore, vs what is on the boob tube...
My issue with that is that it takes a somewhat narrow and short-term view of things. I'm not saying current media are myths, but I think they CAN become such if enough time passes. And I've never seen anything in academia that says myths or folklore can't be in other mediums, it's just that we've only until relatively recently HAD new methods of communicating ideas and stories (i.e. TV, film, intertron, etc.)

[LUCIDmoon]

arnt real, are real God you people are Blinde to all that is around. I AM A WEREWOLF!!! Lough if you must but I am. My "human name" is Logan Smith but as is trudition for my people (were creatures) we shed your old names when around other were creatures My true name is Wolf Eldritch ShadowStorm of the Shadowstorm Clan. we are all around you and you never notice. we are far more civilized then most people think. Thou I still live with my human parents they are compleatly unawer of my true power and being. and I think that we should stand up and show our selves to the world as we once did but the Tride elders think other wise.

Seriously? If he really was a werewolf, why would he be posting it for everyone to see? If werewolves were real, why would they go around telling everyone? That's just stupid.

I'm not saying I believe in them, beause I most definitely do not. I think all the theories are interesting, and entertaining, but I think lycanthropy is in the head for the most part. I agree with xerox.

The only lycanthropy there is is the psychological disease.

If there were really such a thing as werewolves, or lycanthropes, don't you think there would be some sort of proof by now? You ask people to show proof of lycanthropy being fact or fiction, but there is no real proof, just theories and photoshoped pictures and edited videos.

I love the werewolf myths, and I believe that people can identify with certain animal 'spirits', and exhibit certain animal behaviors because of this, but there are no real werewolves.

I wish I could believe in them, but my brain doesn't work that way. I'm too analytical and I rely on facts, and the fact is that there is no proof.

There is proof against them, though; that there is no proof supporting them. Does that make sense? Lol, it does to me.

Sorry to be a downer, but I just felt like expressing my opinions with the rest. :rockon:

[Vendetta]

Seriously? If he really was a werewolf, why would he be posting it for everyone to see? If werewolves were real, why would they go around telling everyone? That's just stupid.
Not to mention on a forum about werewolves. It's like a cop coming home and watching crappy police procedural TV shows. Why would s/he do it? I'll be honest, If I was a werewolf (and I'm not saying I am,) the last thing I'd want to do is talk with a bunch of werewolf fanboys on the interwebs.

[Nash]

Hello everyone, I think I can help shed some light on this matter. Four years ago,when I was sixteen, I was diagnosed with clinical depression. As the year went by and my depression became worse, I did the typical stupid teenager stereo-type, and dabbled in drugs. After school let out that year, I was in pretty bad shape. I was to the point of not eating well and spending all my time with my dog (a wolf-malamute hybrid which I still own). After a few weeks of this, I was in such a state that I believed myself to be a werewolf (I know not that exciting~sorry). After a few more visits with my doctor(psychiatrist)I was diagnosed with clinical lycanthropy. I spent a week and a half under observation at a hospital here(middle tennessee mental health institute)and was proscribed the drug seroquel (for the delusions I was having). I have been "cured" for a lack of a better word, for over three years now. People who honestly believe themselves to be werewolves are mentally ill and should get help. These feelings/beliefs can be very strong and very emotionally taxing on the individual who is afflicted. For myself, it was a combination of severe depression and a brief period of drug usage. But now, after a while of being treated (even though I am still on certain meds) my friends and I can have a good laugh at what happened. I have learned to laugh at the jokes that are made at me, and even make a few myself. To me, the only type of werewolf that can exist is the type of situation that happened with me. But if I'm wrong and there are people who can change into wolves, then cool. If I'm wright, then cool. I hope I provided enough information clinical lycanthropy and it's treatments. ~ Nash

[jckrussll89]

arnt real, are real God you people are Blinde to all that is around. I AM A WEREWOLF!!! Lough if you must but I am. My "human name" is Logan Smith but as is trudition for my people (were creatures) we shed your old names when around other were creatures My true name is Wolf Eldritch ShadowStorm of the Shadowstorm Clan. we are all around you and you never notice. we are far more civilized then most people think. Thou I still live with my human parents they are compleatly unawer of my true power and being. and I think that we should stand up and show our selves to the world as we once did but the Tride elders think other wise.


What? Dude. Please tell me that this is just an elaborate joke on your part. Tell me that it's all for $h*ts and giggles. Because if you are serious dude, you need to put the freaking bong down. First of all, if you were an actual werewolf, you would not make your presence known to anyone. Why? Because if werewolves did exist-which they don't-but if they did exist they would keep it that way as a way of SURVIVAL! Plus, in order for you to be a werewolf, either your mom or pop would have to be a werewolf as well. Therefore, they WOULD be aware of your condition. I have been where you are. You feel that you don't belong and that you MUST be a seperate species but the thing is that YOU ARE HUMAN. Hopefully, you'll grow out of this phase. I did.

[DarkHunter]

I'd like to know why all of these "traditional ancient" werewolf clans have "traditional" names like "Wolf Eldritch Shadowstorm." If that's not a load of trendy goth bullshit, I don't know what is. I mean, at least come up with something nearing a plausible story if you're going to peddle nonsense.

Anyway. I think by traditional definition of folklore that while Hollywood films themselves might not technically qualify, the influence on people's ideas about things like vampires or werewolves does.

I mean, Curt Siodmak invented a lot of what we believe about werewolves today. This has been taken up by other movies, stories, retellings and has achieved variations, which are important in definitions of folklore. While anybody who is a fan of the old movies knows the source, most people couldn't tell you where the knowledge came from or why they know werewolves can be killed by silver bullets. It's just what they've grown up knowing.

It's not within the strictest definition of folklore, but it is conceivably within the realm.

[Wolf26]

arnt real, are real God you people are Blinde to all that is around. I AM A WEREWOLF!!! Lough if you must but I am. My "human name" is Logan Smith but as is trudition for my people (were creatures) we shed your old names when around other were creatures My true name is Wolf Eldritch ShadowStorm of the Shadowstorm Clan. we are all around you and you never notice. we are far more civilized then most people think. Thou I still live with my human parents they are compleatly unawer of my true power and being. and I think that we should stand up and show our selves to the world as we once did but the Tride elders think other wise.

I know how he feels, i was almost exaclty like that once, just that i was a lot lot worse. I don't think its good to criticize him like that, especialy not in a forum where we try to prove werewolfes exist even if we know they dont. And who knows, maybe he is telling the truth :P

[Wolf26]

Anyway, i do believe real werewolfes exist, but its not the kind that physicaly shifts at night and can shift back at any time, such thing would be impossibale becouse there is no way to change shape quickly enough, and IF by some magical way it were possibale, there wouldn't be a way to shift back becouse a human body cant just suck all the extra hair and changes back in.
The kind of werewolfes that do exist know that shifting physicaly isn't possibale(or find out later), but they still have partialy a personality of a wolf, usualy have increased strength, speed, sence of hearing etc., becouse if the mind believes it, it subconsciously makes these changes which are otherwise also possibale when in shock or fear, etc. This might work diffrently for some people depending on how much and what they believe.
Now weather you believe it or not, this is as real as the term "Werewolf" can possibly get.
If i left something unexplained i'll be happy to answer any questions.:D

[Bran Conal]

do lycan exist. in my personal opinion yes they do. i would love to believe that they exist in the same level as in movies and such. but as one member stated there is no known biological way for there bodies to under go that level of rapid change.

but what i do believe is that the lycans change in more of a spiritual sense. witch docters of many tribal socities would wear the pelts and masks of a creature in the wild that they were ether connected to from birth, or whos strength or insite they seeked. once wearing these pelts and masks the shamman would then take on the actions of the desired animal, getting his/her brain into a line of thinking that would allow them to see the world from another point of view.

now obviously there is no scientific evidance for me to quote to support my above theory. but how many times have you put on a certain costume, or outfit and felt changed by it? have you ever for example put on lets say traditional renisance clothing, and felt differnt? like the person you used to be has taken a back seat and you see the world a little differently.

pagans through out history have been known to done robes or skins for ritualistic reasons only. to achieve a state of mind fitted to the work they planned on doing.

maybe this is where the real lycans sprang from. one man/woman dawning a wolf costume on the full moon, grunting, growling, and howling just before the observer ran screaming, or attacked out of ignorance.

[kathryn]

Ooor maybe if we all did a little research we would see exactly where the story came up.

Now, legends of men or women changing into something not human has been around for a long time, such as silkies or the swan maidens, or skin walkers. Stories of humans looking like, taking the shape of, or taking the attributes of various animals have been around for a long time and can be found in multiple countries across the world.

Now, from what I gathered in a very brief research is that werewolves are most commonly European mythology. It seems as though the film "Werewolf in London" (1935) was the first time a werewolf appears in fiction. It also seems that the myths as to you having to be bitten or clawed by a werecreature to become a werewolf isn't the original myths. In fact, original werewolves didn't have a tail and weren't affected by silver/quick silver. Transitions weren't painful and the transformed were damned, either not being able to control themselves, or had signed a contract with the devil and had agreed to do his work wearing wolf skin.

The rise to these myths could be linked to Greek mythology... or it could be linked to the great Norse berserkers who wore wolf skin... Or it could be just a large wolf and the fear of a creature coming in and eating you alive. It could be from a mass murderer who cannibalized his victims, or it could come from people performing pagan rituals, dressed in furs, and stoned out of their minds.

As to if werewolves are real or not... well, just check the wikipedia site for more information, they have a few good tips without you finding a were and getting bitten. But if you change your mind later, there are a few cures, though they seem dreadfully painful.

Either way, until I see proof, I will stand by and say that werewolves do not exist. If you believe yourself or a friend of yours to be a werewolf, I recommend the following:

1. A quick slap on the face (use a herring)
2. An appointment to see a psychiatrist
3. Locked up in a straight jacket. (after all, you are an uncontrollable werewolf now, who knows if you will come out and eat us all while we sleep)

[DarkHunter]

Now, from what I gathered in a very brief research is that werewolves are most commonly European mythology. It seems as though the film "Werewolf in London" (1935) was the first time a werewolf appears in fiction.

I would counter that werewolves, by their most basic definition, appear most prominently in fiction (and before Werewolf of London) as that damnable Edward Hyde. If not concretely, then at least thematically. If you dig deep enough, you'll find out that "Werewolf of London" was originally supposed to be a Jekyll/Hyde movie before they turned it into a film about werewolves.

Even if you neglect Hyde as a werewolf (perish the thought!), there are other literary works that are more "standard."

[kathryn]

Like I said, it was a brief investigation on the subject. Thanks for that info, next time I'll dig a little deeper for more information. Either way, I once heard someone on this forum say that werewolves mostly only appeared in fiction and didn't have much mythology behind them, but it looks like that's wrong. There is mythology, but that's all it is, myths.

[Necro Mortis]

Yeah, I saw a werewolf last night. I was terrified.

[Mizael]

Anyway, i do believe real werewolfes exist, but its not the kind that physicaly shifts at night and can shift back at any time, such thing would be impossibale becouse there is no way to change shape quickly enough, and IF by some magical way it were possibale, there wouldn't be a way to shift back becouse a human body cant just suck all the extra hair and changes back in.
The kind of werewolfes that do exist know that shifting physicaly isn't possibale(or find out later), but they still have partialy a personality of a wolf, usualy have increased strength, speed, sence of hearing etc., becouse if the mind believes it, it subconsciously makes these changes which are otherwise also possibale when in shock or fear, etc. This might work diffrently for some people depending on how much and what they believe.
Now weather you believe it or not, this is as real as the term "Werewolf" can possibly get.
If i left something unexplained i'll be happy to answer any questions.:D

The transformation itself would be biologycally impossible, but the transformation don't have to occur, just we need to think it did. Many ancient legends about the werewolf say it sheds it's own skin to perform the transformation. Coincidentally, this is a biologically viable way of transformation, since someone with various layer of skin can have one layer underskin that grows hair all trough the month.
That is why i say it's illusory, it was already there all time long, just we didn't see it. To the werewolf to turn back, he would only need to shed his skin again, what would reveal another newer layer of skin where hair had not time to grow( and probably won't since the new layer will have direct contact with the sun light ), and he is normal again.
An argument i place in my favor is the fact that in medieval times, a werewolf could be recognized by someone if someone would cut his skin and hair would be revealled inside the wound.
What i think to be impossible to explain by biology is the "supposed" transformation of the bone structure. The alteration of the head bone structure to resemble a wolf, for instance.
Again, by my theory, if you shed the face skin, the cheeks hardly would have extra layers, what means they would be torn apart revealing all the theeth of a person, and i think that could pass as wolves theeth, so, no bone extructure shapeshifting.

[TedMoonsong]

The Book of Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage written by Abraham the Jew (it`s his real name or at least as he reffers of himself on the book cover) .. Look this book up, learn the ways, contact your Guradian Angel, learn divine secrets and yes, you can become a werewolf.. But the rituals and the preparing take looooong time, precision and patience.. so if you really wanna become a wolfman u need practice!

[NeonLightChild]

The Book of Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage written by Abraham the Jew (it`s his real name or at least as he reffers of himself on the book cover)

I know we're supposed to play nice on this thread, and I'll try.

Please at least make the book sound credible to those of us who bother to look up sources. Abraham lived pretty long...what, 900 or so years? However, between the alleged first publication date (http://www.esotericarchives.com/abramelin/abramelin.htm) and the vague "earlier versions exist" phrasing, I don't think he lived quite THAT long.

Speaking of longtime, any idea of how long the average time to learn this is? Are we talking 4-year bachelor degree or 2-year associates' degree? Or are you more in the ballpark of what some dog trainers refer to as the “now you can trust your dog off-leash because he’s too tired and old to run away from you anyway” length of time?

[tactiletempt]

This thread seems to be mostly about seeking scientific evidence or arguing about mythology. Before I state my own opinions, I'd like to point out two quick things.

1. Science is not an institution or in any way a "thing". It is a way of thinking and a process of discovery. It is not the only way of thinking or discovering proof, but in our current society it is the most accepted way. Please consider that there are other ways to "prove" even if by science, they seem inadequate. It's like the difference between the theory of the 10th dimension for time travel and the still developing modern method for cloning. They go about complex problems in different ways.

2. Mythology and Lore are recorded first hand accounts. This does not make them true, but this also does not make them false. Records are always up to each observer's interpretation. No one has to believe everything and not everyone has to believe a single thing.


Now, I believe that werewolves COULD exist. I do not think that the change is a process that we could currently show in a lab, though as there is much we can not prove in a lab I do not consider that a fault in the argument for true werewolves. I believe that werewolves could exist because I have accepted no finite proof that they could not exist.

As for problems with the energy to create a change, frankly, the world is made of energy. It is everywhere. I see no reason to rule out the possibility that an individual couldn't have some sort of system to gather it at a time of need. I doubt there is information regarding this in a physiology textbook (mostly because I'm just finishing my bachelor's in biology and have seen several), but anyone who has written a college report can tell you that textbooks don't contain all the information you need on a subject. (It's why research is so annoying.) There could be a million ways to gather the energy. Also, as for the cell mutations, even the best of the best in biology don't fully understand how cells move. We know A LOT, but no one knows everything.


My parting idea on the subject:
The world isn't limited to the discovered and the proven.

[CatBoxed]

This thread seems to be mostly about seeking scientific evidence or arguing about mythology. Before I state my own opinions, I'd like to point out two quick things.

And I'll my goddamned best to refute every single thing you say, having read it and come away with a burning case of stupidity for it. I may have to deconstruct your argument a bit, for which I apologize. Multiple fallacious arguments can't be addressed all at once.

1. Science is not an institution or in any way a "thing". It is a way of thinking and a process of discovery.

This is absolutely correct, except for that whole way of thinking thing. It IS thinking, and using the tenets of the scientific method to show that your thesis is either supported or rejected by the OBSERVED results that can be replicated.

It is not the only way of thinking or discovering proof, but in our current society it is the most accepted way.

In our current society, can you lay out a complete plan for a better way of processing the data we collect and analyze? Is there a revelation currently unpublished that you hold in your consciousness that will change the way that the scientific community views the world?


Please consider that there are other ways to "prove" even if by science, they seem inadequate. It's like the difference between the theory of the 10th dimension for time travel and the still developing modern method for cloning. They go about complex problems in different ways.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "prove". Do you, yourself, have proof of werewolf existence? If so, you would have to share with a community at large even to gain some semblance of acceptance. Going even further, do you have comprehension of the mathematical and physical principles underlying multidimensional space? I would imagine that would take either a Ph.D with access to journals with which to back up your statement, or a generally available dissertation which in all likelihood does not exist.

The same goes to say for your cloning argument. Please, for the sake of the burger-flipping clientele here, explain your ways and means for determining how a complex problem should be solved.

2. Mythology and Lore are recorded first hand accounts. This does not make them true, but this also does not make them false. Records are always up to each observer's interpretation. No one has to believe everything and not everyone has to believe a single thing.

It appears that you haven't taken a decent logic class. Let me sum it up for you, in terms of why your argument is fallacious.
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/4710/adignorantiampr9.jpg
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/8168/incedulityoj3.jpg
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2486/falsedichotomymq6.jpg


Now, I believe that werewolves COULD exist. I do not think that the change is a process that we could currently show in a lab, though as there is much we can not prove in a lab I do not consider that a fault in the argument for true werewolves. I believe that werewolves could exist because I have accepted no finite proof that they could not exist.

That...is the worst argument for werewolf existence I have ever seen. Again, I'm forced to use an image.
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/4710/adignorantiampr9.jpg

As for problems with the energy to create a change, frankly, the world is made of energy. It is everywhere. I see no reason to rule out the possibility that an individual couldn't have some sort of system to gather it at a time of need.

Please cite the origin of your belief for this particular point. This word energy, I do not think it means what you think it means.


I doubt there is information regarding this in a physiology textbook (mostly because I'm just finishing my bachelor's in biology and have seen several), but anyone who has written a college report can tell you that textbooks don't contain all the information you need on a subject. (It's why research is so annoying.) There could be a million ways to gather the energy. Also, as for the cell mutations, even the best of the best in biology don't fully understand how cells move. We know A LOT, but no one knows everything.


My parting idea on the subject:
The world isn't limited to the discovered and the proven.

It's certainly a comforting thing that the scholarly people trying to educate you with books are hiding information from you. However, in real science, they actually publish literature outside of the textbook stream that is peer-reviewed and quite informative.

The world IS limited to the discovered and proven. Proven being the key word. I challenge you to find one werewolf troglodyte that actually has physical evidence of their existence. The minute you can upload a picture or video I'll stop being the biggest dick in the world and convert to a true believer.

[demonic_monkey]

Do werewolves exist? No. I have not seen any proof that can change my opinion of that. Could they exist at some point in the future? It's possible. Take a government with the resources, know-how, and need to create a government-funded program geared towards such things as gene splicing (http://library.thinkquest.org/19037/therapy2.html) for, let's say, military usage. That program could find ways to genetically splice in the necessary genes needed to shed one's skin, as stated by Mizael, along with the necessary genes to grow the skin in layers of really hairy and not hairy, the genes needed to grow wolf-like teeth (42 in all, most shaped for the ripping of flesh, a trait that could not be turned on and off like the hair), and any other traits needed.

Think of it like this, dog breeders use selective breeding to produce the results they want in their dogs. The greyhound is built for speed, the chihuahua to be cute and annoying at the same time, and so on. By applying this idea to humanity through gene splicing, it would be possible, in a distant future that we probably won't live to see, to make werewolves.

Of course, this doesn't have to be for military usage, but it seemed the most logical thing to apply it to. After all, what person wouldn't want an army of wolfmen to do their bidding?

Do not forget. Science is built upon our discoveries and we have not yet discovered everything.

They're not real...yet.

P.S.--If this idea makes me look like a dumbass, please slap me.

[NeonLightChild]

Think of it like this, dog breeders use selective breeding to produce the results they want in their dogs. The greyhound is built for speed, the chihuahua to be cute and annoying at the same time, and so on. By applying this idea to humanity through gene splicing, it would be possible, in a distant future that we probably won't live to see, to make werewolves.

Don't get me started.

Oh wait, never mind. (http://www.werewolf.com/vb/showthread.php?t=97)

I think the main problem with your plan is that there is NO GENE for any sort of transformation. Even if we did splice hyooman and wolfie genes together, it would have to be some pretty damn good science to make it work and keep any resulting being alive.

Consider why zoophiliacs don't impregnate or aren't impregnated by the animals with whom they have their jollies.

[demonic_monkey]

Well then, werewolves are, for lack of a better word, screwed when it come to existing at all. Sorry, wolfies. :(

[Mizael]

Just carrying on the argumentation i thought that would be nice to reply this. So... by parts:


In our current society, can you lay out a complete plan for a better way of processing the data we collect and analyze? Is there a revelation currently unpublished that you hold in your consciousness that will change the way that the scientific community views the world?


As far as I know... Philosofy isn't science, but is used to understand the world anyway. The philosofy itself can break in various techniques of argument and logic study from which conclusions can be made, one of those techniques is supposed to be the science itself.

There is no need to change the science behavior, just use another technique instead and you're working to understand the world yourself (even if just for yourself).



do you have comprehension of the mathematical and physical principles underlying multidimensional space? I would imagine that would take either a Ph.D with access to journals with which to back up your statement, or a generally available dissertation which in all likelihood does not exist.


I do understand that the original autor should have posted his references, that, by the way, do exist since he wouldn't even know what those terms mean if he didn't saw it somewhere.

If you do understand what is wrong with his arguments, please share with us. Any knowledge is welcome, and is always better to counter the original autor arguments instead of countering his rights or motivations to post his arguments. I'm not complaining about your arguments against the form that the original autor posted his arguments(it was really awful), but if you're not going to post something else, your post is as empty as what his post was.


Please cite the origin of your belief for this particular point. This word energy, I do not think it means what you think it means.


What he might mean by "the world is made of energy" is told in Albert Einten's work ( E = mc2 ). He might think that the world was made of energy concluding that was the big bang explosion that made all of the objects in universe(lot of energy concentrated).

There's a way of obtaining energy out of the world, that, for us, would be eating. Suposing that a werewolf is, after all, a human, he draws energy on the same way.

check the reference for this in :
http://www.werewolf.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5812&page=2



The world IS limited to the discovered and proven. Proven being the key word. I challenge you to find one werewolf troglodyte that actually has physical evidence of their existence. The minute you can upload a picture or video I'll stop being the biggest dick in the world and convert to a true believer.


True believer in what?
Any fixed concepts is just as fallacious as a bad argument, and the same goes to belief, if you put any of those against proper argumentation.

It is not like just scientists with Ph.D can argument. Am i right?

[Mizael]

Take a government with the resources, know-how, and need to create a government-funded program geared towards such things as gene splicing (http://library.thinkquest.org/19037/therapy2.html) for, let's say, military usage. That program could find ways to genetically splice in the necessary genes needed to shed one's skin, as stated by Mizael, along with the necessary genes to grow the skin in layers of really hairy and not hairy, the genes needed to grow wolf-like teeth (42 in all, most shaped for the ripping of flesh, a trait that could not be turned on and off like the hair), and any other traits needed.


If you wanna go all the way to genetic splicing you don't even need to think about werewolves (maybe x-men).

My theory is one to be applied to a normal human that hold genetic disfunctions like trissomy, not to some bio engineered monster.

If you research about trissomy you'll see that it is a trait that hardly will be passed to the offspring (it is possible though), can give a person a whole lot set of characteristics (most of them awful) that will vary according to the type of chromossome that was triplied, how much of the chromossome was triplied, and to what person it happened (totally unpredictable changes).

Here in Brazil it's a common belief that a werewolf is a man that looks weak, anemic and have strange specific behavior (like planting flowers),and all of those are common traits for someone with trissomy at some point.

check my post in here for further argumentation: http://www.werewolf.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5812&page=2

Now... medics of the site i ask you :

Is it possible to identify if someone have trissomy even when he doesn't show the common traits of it(A dna or blood test perhaps...)?

What exactly is this test?

[J.L.R.]

If you wanna go all the way to genetic splicing you don't even need to think about werewolves (maybe x-men).

My theory is one to be applied to a normal human that hold genetic disfunctions like trissomy, not to some bio engineered monster.

If you research about trissomy you'll see that it is a trait that hardly will be passed to the offspring (it is possible though), can give a person a whole lot set of characteristics (most of them awful) that will vary according to the type of chromossome that was triplied, how much of the chromossome was triplied, and to what person it happened (totally unpredictable changes).

Here in Brazil it's a common belief that a werewolf is a man that looks weak, anemic and have strange specific behavior (like planting flowers),and all of those are common traits for someone with trissomy at some point.

check my post in here for further argumentation: http://www.werewolf.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5812&page=2

Now... medics of the site i ask you :

Is it possible to identify if someone have trissomy even when he doesn't show the common traits of it(A dna or blood test perhaps...)?

What exactly is this test?

**cough** spellcheck *cough**

Oh, by the way... werewolves still don't exist. :beerchug:

[Topology]

I think what Mizael is saying is that people with certain genetic disorders might, in some superstitious parts of the world, be labeled "werewolves" due to their odd appearance. Similar to how old women who were good with herbs were sometimes labeled "witches" in the past.

He's not saying that actual werewolves (in the mythological sense) exist.
________
RC160 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Honda_RC160)

[Mizael]

**cough** spellcheck *cough**

Oh, by the way... werewolves still don't exist. :beerchug:

It is true that the werewolf doesn't exist, since the definition of "werewolf" is just as flawed as any other definition. There is no use arguing about it's existence.

And... what is wrong with my spelling?

[CatBoxed]

Just carrying on the argumentation i thought that would be nice to reply this. So... by parts:

Let's get the party started.

As far as I know...

And right there, that's the rub. As far as you know. From this point moving forward you try to convolute my points into a different type of argument altogether.

Philosofy isn't science, but is used to understand the world anyway.

No.

This is only correct in describing the way the world works using rational arguments. If you take a basic logic class, you'll find that it's all math to begin with, where a certain set of rules are laid out equation-style that provide what is and isn't a coherent style of argumentation.

Science goes so far as to explain why these arguments are valid or invalid, based on experimentally-verified observations.


The philosofy itself can break in various techniques of argument and logic study from which conclusions can be made, one of those techniques is supposed to be the science itself.

There is no need to change the science behavior, just use another technique instead and you're working to understand the world yourself (even if just for yourself).

Please reread what you just wrote. I certainly don't understand it at all in the definition of a logical explanation, and I'm fairly certain that everyone reading that will only come away with a large headache. If you can provide a more clear and concise explanation, I'm certainly willing to try to understand it.

I do understand that the original autor should have posted his references, that, by the way, do exist since he wouldn't even know what those terms mean if he didn't saw it somewhere.

No offense to you, or the author of that particular post you mention, but do you have any idea how many people will throw about words without having any cognizant understanding of their meaning? You are familiar with lawyers and politicians, yes? If the references exist, they need to be provided to assist in a coherent argument.

I can say that I understand the theory of single-filament generation and self-phase modulation in condensed media utilizing multi-photon ionization and plasma generation, and use it on a daily basis to probe time-dependent molecular species.

Another person would just say that I shine light at shit to see what happens.

If you do understand what is wrong with his arguments, please share with us. Any knowledge is welcome, and is always better to counter the original autor arguments instead of countering his rights or motivations to post his arguments. I'm not complaining about your arguments against the form that the original autor posted his arguments(it was really awful), but if you're not going to post something else, your post is as empty as what his post was.

I'm fairly certain that I pointed out what was wrong with his/her arguments. They were flawed to a point of unreasonability. It's up to either the original author or you to provide supporting information that furthers the argument, otherwise the logical implications still stand.

What he might mean by "the world is made of energy" is told in Albert Einten's work ( E = mc2 ). He might think that the world was made of energy concluding that was the big bang explosion that made all of the objects in universe(lot of energy concentrated).

Now see, here's where I really have the opportunity to shine, and I'm going to take the high road. If Einstein's simple relativistic equation is the only argument you have, then you obviously haven't studied statistical thermodynamics or quantum theory at all. If I were to write out what would obviously be a textbook-length explanation to every single possible consideration given to where energy was headed or what it does given the observable evidence, it would be an entire waste of my time.

In short, I'll just say that "what he might think" is wrong, and he needs to learn to think harder.

There's a way of obtaining energy out of the world, that, for us, would be eating. Suposing that a werewolf is, after all, a human, he draws energy on the same way.

Are you insinuating that I should start eating my various surroundings in order to properly get the energy out? I'm fairly certain that what I poop out every day is evidence of the inefficiency of the biological process with regards to energy retrieval.

check the reference for this in :
http://www.werewolf.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5812&page=2

No. That is not a reference. Your failure to discern between general asshattery and logical discourse is noted.

True believer in what?
Any fixed concepts is just as fallacious as a bad argument, and the same goes to belief, if you put any of those against proper argumentation.

It is not like just scientists with Ph.D can argument. Am i right?

No, you're not. If people have spent most of their lives dedicated to finding out how things work by utilizing experimental methods, either disproving or providing supporting evidence for various theories, then they've done a hell of a lot more and have more of a right to argue about the way things actually work.

[Mizael]

Here we go again...

Let's get the party started.
Science goes so far as to explain why these arguments are valid or invalid, based on experimentally-verified observations.


Even if it makes science eficient it still doesn't make it the only one.


Please reread what you just wrote. I certainly don't understand it at all in the definition of a logical explanation, and I'm fairly certain that everyone reading that will only come away with a large headache. If you can provide a more clear and concise explanation, I'm certainly willing to try to understand it.


Ok. Let's see...
We have Metaphysics, Epistemology, Ethics, Political philosophy, Aesthetics, Logic, Philosophy of mind, Philosophy of language and Philosophy of religion, from whose "logic" is one of the most important tools of science.

Even if Logic helps explain the world, it can still be explained by Metaphysics.



I'm fairly certain that I pointed out what was wrong with his/her arguments. They were flawed to a point of unreasonability. It's up to either the original author or you to provide supporting information that furthers the argument, otherwise the logical implications still stand.


if you say so...


If Einstein's simple relativistic equation is the only argument you have, then you obviously haven't studied statistical thermodynamics or quantum theory at all.

If I were to write out what would obviously be a textbook-length explanation to every single possible consideration given to where energy was headed or what it does given the observable evidence, it would be an entire waste of my time.


If there's a equation that establish relationship between energy and mass, it will work to mass and energy as well.

Thermodynamics? How the entropy help explain formation of mass? As far as i know it'll just help to understand the thermodynamic equilibrium (or energy equilibrium) in closed systems with objects or in the vacuum.

Quantum theory? As long as i know Einstein's theory of general relativity and quantum theory are both supported by rigorous empirical evidence, but they resist to be incorporated into a cohesive model. How do you plan on proving wrong my theory?

Again... it's commom math that both sides of an equation is equivalent and my argument still stands.

Waste of time? wasn't it a waste of time to post just personal opinion in here in the first place?


In short, I'll just say that "what he might think" is wrong, and he needs to learn to think harder.


Agreed...


Are you insinuating that I should start eating my various surroundings in order to properly get the energy out? I'm fairly certain that what I poop out every day is evidence of the inefficiency of the biological process with regards to energy retrieval.


You actually do it, you just don't notice. The plant that feed you feeds on rocks minerals and water.
Are you going to say that the plant isn't a part of the world? If the rock really doesn't have energy, why the plant didn't die in the first place?



No. That is not a reference. Your failure to discern between general asshattery and logical discourse is noted.


Please study the sickness or syndromes that i'm refered about before making such an accusation.


No, you're not. If people have spent most of their lives dedicated to finding out how things work by utilizing experimental methods, either disproving or providing supporting evidence for various theories, then they've done a hell of a lot more and have more of a right to argue about the way things actually work.


Assuming that argumentation is one of the most important teaching methods, it means you're saying that everyone dumber than you should just shut up and let your knowledge go with you to the grave.
Good idea!

[NeonLightChild]

Now... medics of the site i ask you :

Is it possible to identify if someone have trissomy even when he doesn't show the common traits of it(A dna or blood test perhaps...)?

What exactly is this test?

If you're trying to prove that you know something a whole slew of geneticists don't, please just state it.

Otherwise, please stop grasping at straws and try to sound like you at least bothered to look up some sources on the topic at hand before you posted. Because really, if you have an extra copy or are lacking in any sort of chromosome, with the rare exception of trisomies in sex chromosomes (XXX, XYY, XXY), it's going to be as noticable to the rest of us as it is to the ones who read it on the lab results.

[Mizael]

If you're trying to prove that you know something a whole slew of geneticists don't, please just state it.

Otherwise, please stop grasping at straws and try to sound like you at least bothered to look up some sources on the topic at hand before you posted. Because really, if you have an extra copy or are lacking in any sort of chromosome, with the rare exception of trisomies in sex chromosomes (XXX, XYY, XXY), it's going to be as noticable to the rest of us as it is to the ones who read it on the lab results.

Good. So how do i get those lab results?
Is not like i work in a lab.

[Vendetta]

Good. So how do i get those lab results?
Is not like i work in a lab.
Uh dude, learn to read. He's saying you WOULDN'T need a lab result, it would be OBVIOUS.

Seriously dude, come back when you've learned the fundamentals of spelling, grammar and making a coherent argument. Until then, no one has a clue what the hell you are talking about.

[Topology]

Didn't Mizael mention Brazil somewhere? He may not be a native English speaker.

Looking at the Wikipedia articles on trisomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisomy) (Portuguese version (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trissomia)) it seems that the conditions are quite obvious even without genetic tests.
________
marijuana strain strawberry cough (http://trichomes.org/marijuana-strains/deep-chunk-x-strawberry-cough/deep-chunk-x-strawberry-cough)

[CatBoxed]

Here we go again...

Indeed.

Let's get the party started.
And right there, that's the rub. As far as you know. From this point moving forward you try to convolute my points into a different type of argument altogether.

(Philosophy) is only correct in describing the way the world works using rational arguments. If you take a basic logic class, you'll find that it's all math to begin with, where a certain set of rules are laid out equation-style that provide what is and isn't a coherent style of argumentation.

Science goes so far as to explain why these arguments are valid or invalid, based on experimentally-verified observations.

Even if it makes science eficient it still doesn't make it the only one.

One of what? If I were to say that the sky were blue due to Rayleigh scattering, would you have some other explanation that is better supported than the reason I just gave you?

Ok. Let's see...
We have Metaphysics, Epistemology, Ethics, Political philosophy, Aesthetics, Logic, Philosophy of mind, Philosophy of language and Philosophy of religion, from whose "logic" is one of the most important tools of science.

Even if Logic helps explain the world, it can still be explained by Metaphysics.

Do you understand why there's a "meta" in front of the "physics"? With regards to the rest of your philosophy arguments, does that mean that if you think hard enough the electrons will make your computer work?

if you say so...

I do, in fact. Can you say otherwise?

If there's a equation that establish relationship between energy and mass, it will work to mass and energy as well.

In that case, would you agree that logically P OR (Q OR R) = (P OR Q) OR R ?

Thermodynamics? How the entropy help explain formation of mass? As far as i know it'll just help to understand the thermodynamic equilibrium (or energy equilibrium) in closed systems with objects or in the vacuum.

Entropy and formation of mass is a new one to me, having studied thermodynamics. Even then, how does that relate to the statistical thermodynamical model I asked about? Again, as far as you know.

Quantum theory? As long as i know Einstein's theory of general relativity and quantum theory are both supported by rigorous empirical evidence, but they resist to be incorporated into a cohesive model. How do you plan on proving wrong my theory?

I actually don't plan on proving your theory wrong. It's entirely up to you to prove that your theory is better than the one currently in existence, based on burden of proof. You made the statement that you know more, now demonstrate it. In comparison to existing quantum theory, of course.

Again... it's commom math that both sides of an equation is equivalent and my argument still stands.

What equation?

Waste of time? wasn't it a waste of time to post just personal opinion in here in the first place?

I...I...I just feel so STRONGLY about this. Knowing I'm right doesn't help, either, when it comes to intarweb arguments such as this.

Agreed...

Thank you. I'm glad we could come to an agreement. Perhaps in time you'll take the time to understand the physical world given that there's a little education to achieve. I wholeheartedly expect your support given your acknowledgment of your follies. It's fortunate that you've nodded your head to the fact that philosophy doesn't turn your computer screen on, or make your XBox connect you to other 12 years olds who might call you racial slurs.

I'm glad we understand each other at this point.

[Mizael]

In suport of the mass formation theory, i present the following reaction:

There is a chemical reaction with Nacl when it is burned that produce yellow light. This chemical reaction itself happens because the heat provides excitement to the eletrons that go to another level of the eletrosphere. In order for the eletrons to go to the old and stable state of energy, they release energy in form of light.
Now, if light is a particle, i can just reach the conclusion that it was generated out of the energy released.

------------------

Related to the trysomy lab test subject:

I'm working with the assumption that trisomy cases are not always noticeable. Assumption that can't be proven wrong since any trisomy case affects each person differently.

There are cases of partial tryssomy where the simptoms can be attenuated or adapted. I am specially interested in such cases related to autosomal trisomy.

The lab knowledge i seek is to start my own field research in order to prove that assumption, but i don't even know if such test exist.

---------------

English is not my native language, but i understand it clearly, and i apologize in advance in case there is some kind of spelling error in here.

[NeonLightChild]

Related to the trysomy lab test subject:

I'm working with the assumption that trisomy cases are not always noticeable. Assumption that can't be proven wrong since any trisomy case affects each person differently.

There are cases of partial tryssomy where the simptoms can be attenuated or adapted. I am specially interested in such cases related to autosomal trisomy.

The lab knowledge i seek is to start my own field research in order to prove that assumption, but i don't even know if such test exist.
Interesting how you've latched onto this idea that trisomy is going to give us the gene for some type of werewolfie-ness.

Honestly, trisomy is a genetic defect. Defect =/= super power. It may make you look different, act different, or have a different mental capacity than the non-trisomy population, but other than that, people with trisomy are just as human as the rest of us. And they're so lucky that they even get their own Olympics!

Have you yet looked through the peer-reviewed journals of science already to be sure that no one's stumbled across your secret? Because funding is really limited, and I'm not sure they'll be willing to give you THAT much money to research something that isn't even supported by any hypothesis yet.

And I have to admit, I'll cut you some slack on the language since it's not native to you. But I just can't quite wrap the idea around my head that trisomy is somehow going to be a key in which we might one day do the whole werewolfy thing for real.

/no 'retarded kid' jokes plssss... :cool:

[CatBoxed]

I'm glad the trisomy point has already been covered, I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a biologist. This doesn't mean I don't possess the knowledge to understand the chemical and physical principles behind biology, however.

In suport of the mass formation theory, i present the following reaction:

There is a chemical reaction with Nacl when it is burned that produce yellow light.

Sodium chloride does not burn. In fact, its boiling point is roughly 1100 Kelvin. In order for something to be combustible in the most basic sense, it has to possess carbon-based compounds that will eventually outgas upon heating to react with the native oxygen environment. Neither sodium, nor the associated chlorine ion possess this character, and the strong ionic bond formed between the two to generate the NaCl crystal structure makes certain the requirement of high exergonicity in order to even break a single chemical bond.

This chemical reaction itself happens because the heat provides excitement to the eletrons that go to another level of the eletrosphere. In order for the eletrons to go to the old and stable state of energy, they release energy in form of light.

Let's, for a brief moment, assume that you're speaking of the spectral lines of sodium, rather than table salt. The yellow light you speak of arises from the energy released when an electron undergoes a dipole-allowed transition from higher energy levels to its ground state.

One thing that you're not considering is the extinction coefficient of sodium (or any material), that governs the probability of having an electron promoted to a higher excited state to begin with. It's less than 1, I promise you. This immediately insinuates that the total energy required to promote electrons to higher excited states is greater than the population excited, assuming a conservation of energy model at the singular excitation wavelength, which a blackbody emitter such as "flame" is not.

After excitation, you assume that every single electron will spontaneously emit over a given timeframe, which is again untrue, as nonradiative relaxation mechanisms such as intersystem crossing and internal conversion will couple energy vibrationally into the overall system, resulting in an overall decrease in efficiency.

Why do you think we have to pay bills to make sure that every single electronic appliance in our households work?

Now, if light is a particle, i can just reach the conclusion that it was generated out of the energy released.

ASSUMING that you read all of the preceding material, you should now be rethinking what is in quotes directly above this. However...

Light is neither a particle nor a wave. It can be described as either or both depending on the frame of reference. The fact you write this tells me that you are ill-informed to be making a coherent argument regarding the dual nature of photons and the quantum mechanical nature of things. It was a good effort, to be sure.

In summary, what you failed to consider is that in your sodium argument, the generation of photons is by nature an inefficient process. Unfortunately for your ultimate argument, this also applies to every single thermodynamic process in the world. It is, to make a comparison, the same reason that our current silicon solar cell technology will never be able to overcome the ~32% efficiency threshold.

Incidentally, since it was never answered before, would you agree that logically P OR (Q OR R) = (P OR Q) OR R ?

[NeonLightChild]

In summary, what you failed to consider is that in your sodium argument, the generation of photons is by nature an inefficient process. Unfortunately for your ultimate argument, this also applies to every single thermodynamic process in the world.

Let me see if I can transfer this to the correct argument using what you're saying:

"The energy required to transform one species into another (assuming that it is even able to be captured) would result in a humongous amount of heat wihch would fry us just after the transformation starts."

It makes sense to me, at least. Living as a human > charred to a crisp as a werewolf

[Dark Dragon]

clearly you have no idea what power the genetics of a person contains.did you know there are 223 genes in the the human dna that scientists cannot explain,so they call it junk dna,werewolves are real,i have seen them 5 times in one year where i live,and on account of confidentiality i can only say i have a friend that shape-shifted right in front of me,i myself
can shape-shift but not into a werewolf but something else(am not at liberty to say what creature)
even the illuminati knows of this,and sangomas(witchdoctors)in South Africa knows how to turn normal humans into werewolves

[J.L.R.]

clearly you have no idea what power the genetics of a person contains.did you know there are 223 genes in the the human dna that scientists cannot explain,so they call it junk dna,werewolves are real,i have seen them 5 times in one year where i live,and on account of confidentiality i can only say i have a friend that shape-shifted right in front of me,i myself
can shape-shift but not into a werewolf but something else(am not at liberty to say what creature)
even the illuminati knows of this,and sangomas(witchdoctors)in South Africa knows how to turn normal humans into werewolves

While we do learn new things about how the genetic code works and are far from tapping it's potential, I'm pretty certain that most scientists (unless they are mad or in a children's cartoon) will readily acknowledge that there is NOT a gene that will turn your average human being into a four-legged wolf or whatever imaginary animal you can think of. The reality is for a shape-shifter to exist... and a true one at that, they would have to be able to rearrange not only the physical structure, but their entire body make-up on the genetic level. That is simply impossible.

As for witch doctors... You know the use of hallucinagenic drugs would make a person believe anything, so I suggest you stop smoking pot for a while. :D

Now getting back to genetics and tapping its power and potential...

Now, I think there is a possiblity, in the future, where people could synthetically create a "werewolf", via applied synthetic genetics. In fact, we are doing so now, by using human DNA to alter pig DNA slightly, to allow pig organs as viable replacements for human organs.

We already know that our DNA strand contains latent information for tails, fur, "paws" and so on and so forth, as our distent anscensters had them. During early development these characteristics appear, but then disappear as the genetic receptors turn on and off.

Possibly in the future people will be able to use genetics for cosmetic purposes. You might be able to have a wolf-like tail... the fur of a tiger, per say. It might be treated like tattoos and body modification is treated today.

It's a scary thought really, especially when you consider that furries will literally be able to live their fantasies... Gosh I hope the world ends before then. :D

[demonic_monkey]

While we do learn new things about how the genetic code works and are far from tapping it's potential, I'm pretty certain that most scientists (unless they are mad or in a children's cartoon) will readily acknowledge that there is NOT a gene that will turn your average human being into a four-legged wolf or whatever imaginary animal you can think of. The reality is for a shape-shifter to exist... and a true one at that, they would have to be able to rearrange not only the physical structure, but their entire body make-up on the genetic level. That is simply impossible.

As for witch doctors... You know the use of hallucinagenic drugs would make a person believe anything, so I suggest you stop smoking pot for a while. :D

Now getting back to genetics and tapping its power and potential...

Now, I think there is a possiblity, in the future, where people could synthetically create a "werewolf", via applied synthetic genetics. In fact, we are doing so now, by using human DNA to alter pig DNA slightly, to allow pig organs as viable replacements for human organs.

We already know that our DNA strand contains latent information for tails, fur, "paws" and so on and so forth, as our distent anscensters had them. During early development these characteristics appear, but then disappear as the genetic receptors turn on and off.

Possibly in the future people will be able to use genetics for cosmetic purposes. You might be able to have a wolf-like tail... the fur of a tiger, per say. It might be treated like tattoos and body modification is treated today.

It's a scary thought really, especially when you consider that furries will literally be able to live their fantasies... Gosh I hope the world ends before then. :D

The tail idea is nice and all, but would it be functional or vestigial?

[NeonLightChild]

The tail idea is nice and all, but would it be functional or vestigial?

There was an entire thread on the Pre-Hack version about the idea of using cosmetic surgery to give humans wings and tails.

And yes, they'd be completely useless, despite all wishes to the contrary. I know this whole thing about bionic body parts for amputees and whatnot is a good argument for making wings and tails somewhat functional, but the time and money involved in making them work would be way beyond what I care about. Growing and attaching muscles to the human nervous system is a completely different matter, and again, while science is advancing to where this might be possible in the near future, I pretty much foresee people who have to retain a normal day job pretty much NOT partaking in this culture.

i myself
can shape-shift but not into a werewolf but something else(am not at liberty to say what creature)
Your shroud of vagueness dissipates when one glances at your username. Please play again.

[Vendetta]

Your shroud of vagueness dissipates when one glances at your username. Please play again.
He could tell you that he's a covert Dragon operative, but then he'd have to kill you (with his breath.)

[J.L.R.]

The tail idea is nice and all, but would it be functional or vestigial?

Well DM, we already have the genetic coding for tails. Evolutionarily speaking, it wasn't THAT long ago that our ancestors had them. Every now and then we still come across an infant with a stubbed version of a tail. All scientists would need to do is isolate the gene that causes the tail disappear, and simply not allow it to do it's job.

So it would be functional, as the functionality is still there encoded in our master genetic pattern. It has simply become deactivated.

Reverse Genetics has already been tested on chickens with varying results. Like homo Sapians, chickens also loose their tails during embryotic development. Scientists have been able to reverse engineer them to keep the tails... granted this was only tested in embryos. They were able to reverse engineer chickens to develope teeth, as most birds do during the early stages, before their finalized beaks form.

So in short, for humans to have tails, it is merely a matter of isolating the gene that deactivates it, and stop it from deactivating it. Granted in doing so, one might cause all sorts of other issues.

Of course scientists aren't just interested in the cosmetic practicality, there are a host of genes that if utilized could be quite beneficial for our race. For example if you lose the very tip of your finger in an accident, your body will regenerate the missing point. The gene that does this is actually the same gene that allows a lizard to regrow a missing tail. However the human body, turns off the said gene after a certain point. So your body will regrow the edge of your finger, but can't regrow the finger itself. Again once scientists can find the gene that is stopping the process and deactivate it, a person might be able to regrow a finger... a hand... an arm... who knows.

The more we learn about genetics, the more doors will for alteration. We already use certain animal antigens to alter the immune systems of individuals of whom have a strong allergy towards them. I am highly allergic to dogs, and thus I recieve canine dander shots, of which are designed to alter my immune system slightly, so that my body is receptive.

While this doesn't affect me on a genetic scale, the application is still the same.

As stated before, we've used the human genome to alter pigs sliglty so that pig organs can be harvested and used on people, and to great success. We've used the human genome on mice to make them larger and somewhat more intellegent... (for my NYHM though).

What is to say, people couldn't do that in reverse. All in all your genetic code is like a biological computer program. As you know programs can be altered... In nature it is called mutation...

[CatBoxed]

clearly you have no idea what power the genetics of a person contains.did you know there are 223 genes in the the human dna that scientists cannot explain,so they call it junk dna,

Clearly you have no idea what power the definitions of biology contain. Did you know that it is, in fact, DNA that comprises genes? I'd go so far as to surmise that you've got quite a few more stray chromosomes than the average bear.

Can YOU explain the genomic code that has been mapped any better than the scientists who did it in the first place? Perhaps you have instantaneous knowledge that PhDs who spent years studying this particular matter are unaware of?

werewolves are real,i have seen them 5 times in one year where i live,and on account of confidentiality i can only say i have a friend that shape-shifted right in front of me,i myself
can shape-shift but not into a werewolf but something else(am not at liberty to say what creature)

Prove it. If you can't, you're either swinging your dick around (or an abnormally large button) for fun trying to be the big boy (girl) on the intarweb, or you're just a goddamn idiot.

even the illuminati knows of this,and sangomas(witchdoctors)in South Africa knows how to turn normal humans into werewolves

Again, prove it. Show it to me, any evidence of it. If you can't, you're just a big ol' pussy for not wanting to out your kin. For future reference, getting your first pube does not count as a transformation.

http://derp.blogs.exetel.com.au/uploads/derppics/shark_derp_durr_hurr.jpg

[Topology]

The tail idea is nice and all, but would it be functional or vestigial?

If you can wire up the nerves and muscles properly, you can probably make anything functional. However, acquiring a new muscle group as an adult, when the brain has much less flexibility, would probably make it difficult to learn to use.

But really, humans don't need tails as much because we only use two limbs for running, which leaves our arms free to counter the rotational forces. (That's why your arms always swing the opposite way to your legs.) Not to mention tails wouldn't go well with chairs, or bicycles, or elevator doors...

I'd much rather use genetic engineering to give me super hearing, allow me to see in infrared and ultraviolet (while curing my shortsightedness), and let me always know where magnetic north is.
________
BMW F650 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/BMW_F650)

[demonic_monkey]

But really, humans don't need tails as much because we only use two limbs for running, which leaves our arms free to counter the rotational forces. (That's why your arms always swing the opposite way to your legs.) Not to mention tails wouldn't go well with chairs, or bicycles, or elevator doors...

Or pants, for that matter.

[CatBoxed]

If you can wire up the nerves and muscles properly, you can probably make anything functional. However, acquiring a new muscle group as an adult, when the brain has much less flexibility, would probably make it difficult to learn to use.

But really, humans don't need tails as much because we only use two limbs for running, which leaves our arms free to counter the rotational forces. (That's why your arms always swing the opposite way to your legs.) Not to mention tails wouldn't go well with chairs, or bicycles, or elevator doors...

I'd much rather use genetic engineering to give me super hearing, allow me to see in infrared and ultraviolet (while curing my shortsightedness), and let me always know where magnetic north is.

Well gee, that's just spiffy, son. I'm glad to see that you have it all figured out. Why don't you study hard in school and see if you can't do something about that after you've gotten a doctorate?

[NeonLightChild]

Well gee, that's just spiffy, son. I'm glad to see that you have it all figured out. Why don't you study hard in school and see if you can't do something about that after you've gotten a doctorate?

Oh now, be nice to him. At least he's being rational about things, and don't forget that you too once lived a life without a BS or Masters or PhD or whatever degree you happen to possess at the moment that he doesn't.

If you can wire up the nerves and muscles properly, you can probably make anything functional. However, acquiring a new muscle group as an adult, when the brain has much less flexibility, would probably make it difficult to learn to use.
Hear, hear. Same reason adults have a more difficult time learning new languages from scratch...it can happen, but it'll take a lot more time than if you were just teaching it to a child for the first time.

I did read (and guess what, I actually found the article (http://discovermagazine.com/2006/may/tramps-like-us/?searchterm=man%20versus%20horse)!) about how, in analyzing human performance during the Man vs Horse marathon, that the gluteus maximus muscle actually acts as a tail would when we are running: Our own rear ends are huge; the upper part of the gluteus maximus is greatly expanded. Although few scholars have studied its role in running, the butt is, according to Bramble, "basically a substitute for a tail."

[Lithium]

I'm a little hesitant to post on here, due to everyone trying to 'out-logic' each other. As confident as I am in my arguing skills and science knowledge, I think I prefer to be polite. Proving a flaw in someone's logic doesn't make wrong the ideas behind the arguement.

I'd like to believe that werewolves are real. I love studying myths and the paranormal, whether I believe it or not. I find it strange that ancient cultures, developing independently from each other all over the world had stories of humans shape-shifting into animals. At the same time, this could easily be attributed to mankind's admiration of animals.

If werewolves were proven to be real, don't you think they would immediately lose all their mystery? They would just become another entry in an encyclopedia along with other oddities of the world, such as the platypus.

When the platypus was discovered, the taxidermied remains were thought to be a fake, with body parts from multiple animals sewn together. If the platypus is real, who knows what else is? There's plenty we still have to learn about the biology and physics that could enable things like werewolves to exist.

[DarkWolf]

At the same time, this could easily be attributed to mankind's admiration of animals.Aye, and more than this it can also be an admiration of those animal traits in us - let's not forget we are animals and we do have a lot of the same traits we associate with animals.

If werewolves were proven to be real, don't you think they would immediately lose all their mystery?Not at all. Unlike other animals like platypusses which were are perfectly within boundaries of what we know about biology and physics, werewolves are not. The existence of werewolves would break everything we ever thought we know about biology and physics. Let's remember we do know quite a lot about these things and we have managed to map the human genome even. So, werewolves being real would shatter everything we ever knew. It also means that if we ever did find out how werewolfism was possible we could start to path to finding out how to cure pretty much any known disease, stop aging, prevent obesity, and so on. We're talking about the ability to transform a cell completely into that of another species - an unimiaginable task that is pretty much along the lines of rewriting that cell's existence. Applying this ability to other things would allow us to do some really godlike stuff.

If the platypus is real, who knows what else is?There's quite a difference between a platypus which is an intriguing animal but doesn't possess anything that in any remotely way makes us rethink about our understanding of biology. It's an oddity more on how it became such a thing through evolution than how is this thing possible. In terms of biology and physics there's nothing odd or mysterious about it. It works in the same way any other animal works. A Werewolf, however, is impossible when thinking about what we understand of physics and biology. To think of a platypus being possible, we apply current knowledge and think of it as normal. To think of a werewolf being possible we have to disaregard everything we have ever learned about physics and bio1ogy.

[Lithium]

To think of a platypus being possible, we apply current knowledge and think of it as normal. To think of a werewolf being possible we have to disaregard everything we have ever learned about physics and bio1ogy.
When something new is discovered, sometimes it does clash with our current view of how the world works. We usually find a way to explain it by rethinking the science behind it. Sticking with the example of the platypus, people had never seen anything like it. They never imagined that a mammal could have venomous spurs.

We knew reptiles could be venomous, but we discovered a venomous mammal. In the same way, we know other animals that can go through a metamorphosis, so if a werewolf were to be discovered, I think we could explain it with study.

Of course it's not possible for a human to instantly sprout hair, double in size and turn into a different species. If a werewolf did exist, it would, of course have to fit into the rules of science. The way we've written the laws of physics are accurate, but not perfect. Science is constantly changing and being rewritten. It would be a groundbreaking discovery, but it wouldn't magically solve all kinds of medical problems.

[DarkWolf]

Of course it's not possible for a human to instantly sprout hair, double in size and turn into a different speciesWhat do you think a werewolf is? A Werewolf is a Human becoming a Wolf (or wolflike thing). This means rapid hair growth, changing muscles and bone structure, rearranging organs, completely rewriting the genetic code of the being in an instant. Any lack of these things and the result is NOT a werewolf. Hence, why based on what we know so far werewolves are a total impossibility.

A mammal having venomous spurs is not a reworking of all we know. It was just a break in pattern. There was no facet of biology which dictated such a thing could never happen - just that we had never seen it before. The discovery of the platypus did not require us to entirely rethink everything we knew. We had known for a while such a thing was possible which simply assumed it was very very unlikely. Huge difference there. Seriously, comparing Werewolves to Platyusses (Platypi?) is like comparing the ideas of existence of God with existence of a Two-Headed Snake. One fully and completely and ultimately shatters EVERY possible biological and physical law we have ever come to understand, the other doesn't but was thought of as immensely unlikely and the unlikely happened.

And yes, knowing how to rewrite the entire genetic code of a being in a moment would most definitely open up avenues of reversing aging or curing diseases - feats that are miniscule in comparison to the actual feat of Werewolf transformation.

[Lithium]

A Werewolf is a Human becoming a Wolf (or wolflike thing). This means rapid hair growth, changing muscles and bone structure, rearranging organs, completely rewriting the genetic code of the being in an instant.
I meant to suggest that if a werewolf did exist, maybe it's not quite how we imagined. Maybe it could be a gradual, less drastic change, but a change nonetheless. If a human grew hair and became animal-like in appearance (without changing much in size) over the course of a week, I would still consider this a werewolf.
And yes, knowing how to rewrite the entire genetic code of a being in a moment would most definitely open up avenues of reversing aging or curing diseases - feats that are miniscule in comparison to the actual feat of Werewolf transformation.
In my opinion, a change in physiology from human to wolf-like wouldn't require a rewrite in genetic code. The coding for werewolf features could be present in the DNA already, like how a caterpillar has the same genotype of a butterfly, but not phenotype. The genes that code for things like wings aren't yet expressed.

I remember a good example of gaps in our knowledge of science from a physics course I took last year. Feel free to correct me if I got the story wrong, since I'm repeating it purely by memory. Anyway, a probe of some sort was sent into space, calculated to travel past jupiter at a certain speed, distance, and angle. However, when the probe actually passed the planet, the trajectory was different than expected. Scientists have explored every possible explanation for this anomaly, even taking into account the minute force caused by photons contacting the surface. My professor believed that this incident reflected a gap in what we know about physics.

We may think we have the laws of the universe mapped out perfectly, but so did the scientists who thought the sun orbited the earth. There's plenty left to explore, which is what makes science so exciting.

[DarkWolf]

In my opinion, a change in physiology from human to wolf-like wouldn't require a rewrite in genetic code. The coding for werewolf features could be present in the DNA already, like how a caterpillar has the same genotype of a butterfly, but not phenotype.If the coding was present in DNA already then the subject would not technically be human - it would be too different from anything in the homo genus, and if not human, cannot be a werewolf (since werewolf means human turning into wolf). Furthermore, the genetics for human appearance and wolf appearance are much more different in nature than caterpillar to butterfly. A caterpillar to butterfly isn't the same as human to wolf. A Caterpillar to Butterfly is a change in adolescence - it remains the same species. Human and Wolf are two different species. Muscle tissue is different, there are different bone structures, etc. These differences are far too grand to simply be a change of what genotypes are phenotypes. You would need one set of human genes, one set of wolf genes, and something to provide transformation between the two. Possessing all of that would result in a being who would have potential for change, but would not technically be a human or wolf - they would be a singular complete species altogether. A werewolf is a human becoming wolf. If its no longer human in order to contain all the genetics it needs, then it no longer can fit the definition of werewolf.

Furthermore, it's not just genetics. You're looking at a fast transformation of mass. Unless you're letting it take years to transform with huge constant supply of energy and some super-extraordinary quality to allow the cells to survive it all, then perhaps something can be done to nearly achieve a transformation. But even then, it will not be "human" to "wolf". It would be "radically different but looks human" to "something that looks like a wolf".

The hard part is getting a "human" to transform into wolf or wolflike thing. That's where the problem lies. Even if such a creature exists to have all the genetics and biological facets needed to have this ability - the very fact it has these things makes it non-human and therefore fails the definition and only requisite of the label werewolf. It would be werewolflike but not actual werewolf.

[Lithium]

I understand what you're saying here. My arguement won't work anymore since we have different definitions of what could be considered a werewolf. Doesn't mean I admit defeat though! If we're following your definition of a human turning into something completely different and resembling a wolf in a short period of time, then I agree, it's not possible.

I was thinking that something could be labeled a werewolf by fitting some of the characteristics, such as changing from a human into something animal-like. It wouldn't make sense for a human to turn into a wolf, but rather it would have to be something reminiscent of a wolf.

I'm saying this more because I like playing devil's advocate than an actual, strong belief in werewolves. :)

[NeonLightChild]

I was thinking that something could be labeled a werewolf by fitting some of the characteristics, such as changing from a human into something animal-like. It wouldn't make sense for a human to turn into a wolf, but rather it would have to be something reminiscent of a wolf.

The debate here still falls flat, though.

You're still on the idea that, even if not a true "wolf" by either nature or name, the idea of "werewolf" still involves physical transformation, which we all agree can't happen within the bounds of any true science here on earth. Even the platypus, to bring up your example in the last reply, is born (hatches?) a platypus with all the genes thereof. One might argue the same of the caterpillar: it hatches into a worm with all the DNA necessary to do it's thing and one day fly away.

In order to be a true "were-animal," no matter what, it requires a complete change of DNA in all cells, so that one can go from functioning as a human with all the requisite human anatomy and physiology, to functioning as a non-human animal, with all THAT anatomy/physiology. It's not like Animorphs, where DNA just randomly floats around in your bloodstream waiting to be called to action...you either ARE something or you AREN'T--though I admit, the ideas behind the workings of that series was something way cool. There's a reason chimeras have to be created in labs (and even then it's an ethically-charged topic) as well as a reason that zoophiles can't impregnate or become impregnated (yes, we all know sick people have to get their jollies somehow).

I was thinking that something could be labeled a werewolf by fitting some of the characteristics, such as changing from a human into something animal-like. It wouldn't make sense for a human to turn into a wolf, but rather it would have to be something reminiscent of a wolf.
Are you talking only a partial transformation, voluntarily stopped at a certain point, or a "complete" one in that the human turns into something half-human, half-wolf? There is the idea of "m-shifting," which might have been done more realistically in tribal cultures than with adolescent wannabes with raging hormones, and "beserkers," about which I know next to nothing aside from the entire idea of the concept. Neither of which, of course, involve any sort of physical shifting...rather it hearkens back to the realization that human beings are still animals in some ways and can return to those roots, even if not physically.

[kenan]

I can see why people are having a hard time digesting the idea of such an inscrutable transformation, but I'd like to remind many; (and not specifically anybody, so please don't take offense) if someone were to claim that they were a lycanthrope idividual some would be hesitant to accept the statement. But with others, one would claim to be a vampire and they would be eager to see if they would feed off of you,fall in love with you,turn you, ect ect... i say if your ready to accept one thing, then you have to look at alot of different angles. If a vampire can exist, why not its known enemy, the werewolf?

[DarkWolf]

I can see why people are having a hard time digesting the idea of such an inscrutable transformation, but I'd like to remind many; (and not specifically anybody, so please don't take offense) if someone were to claim that they were a lycanthrope idividual some would be hesitant to accept the statement. But with others, one would claim to be a vampire and they would be eager to see if they would feed off of you,fall in love with you,turn you, ect ect... i say if your ready to accept one thing, then you have to look at alot of different angles. If a vampire can exist, why not its known enemy, the werewolf?

Because Vampirism, in the sense of needing blood and burning in daylight etc, are very possible. In the sense that they DO EXIST. Obviously not "turning into bats" and all that but there are blood addictions, some conditions that can cause bloodlust, and there are skin conditions that can literally cause the skin to burn in daylight like xeroderma pigmentosis and poryphoria (sp?).

A vampire creature means only a creature that feeds on blood. The mosquito is called a vampire fly, the leech is called a vampire worm, and so on. A vampire human, while never documentated beyond lifestyle choice, is very physically possible.

A werewolf transformation however is not physically possible and therein lies the difference.

Scientifically speaking there is more physical possibility of an invisible pink elephant than there is of a werewolf.

[<\Mutt/>]

werewolves are indeed real, though it never really proved it because it is difficult for us to change.

[DarkWolf]

werewolves are indeed real, though it never really proved it because it is difficult for us to change.

Yet more inconsistency. You've stated elsewhere you can change at will and you change without control whenever you: have sex, are hungry, are angry, and during full moon. Which means you'd be changing A LOT. Would think that would be very easy to prove.

Can't you ingrates at least get your story straight before posting your garbage?

[SpaceGoat]

Wheres This "Wolf Eldritch Shadowstorm" gone... :P

[PsychoWolfy92]

Lol i going for the being human show thing the dude said okay a transformation is triggered by the moon like the moon controls the tides an water it triggers a transformation. im thinking im not a bright one but thinking that a gene is turned on that makes the body change grow fangs, hair, claws, instinct to kill not sure about full body morf more like wolfman thing, ears my point a bit and such then your mind just is fixed on a kill instinct to feed like extreme munchies.

[Borish]

Perhaps this might help out some. Keep in mind this is suppossed to be a myth. But myths are partially based in facts. Who knows how much is fact and how much isnt but that isnt the arguement here is it?

http://www.werewolfpage.com/myths/werewolf_timeline.htm

On another note if people break down to the very basic primal desires as a result of being bitten or born or cursed into being a werewolf then there is nothing shocking there. It would just be the catalist that unlocks those primal desires that are stored in our subconscious. I have seen this happen in people. I was in the army. my job was recon. there were a few times when we got into fire fights and engagements were we had to subdue our own men because they would go into a blood lust and could not tell friend from foe. After subduing them and a little time to calm them down they would return to "normal" and have no memory of their actions. This has happened all though out history; although this is not proof of people becoming werewolfs it can be the mental break down and just a mental thing.....

Just some thoughts...

[wolfgirl]

Werewolves are real im..... sorta one im not kiding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DarkWolf]

Perhaps this might help out some. Keep in mind this is suppossed to be a myth. But myths are partially based in facts. Who knows how much is fact and how much isnt but that isnt the arguement here is it?

http://www.werewolfpage.com/myths/werewolf_timeline.htm

On another note if people break down to the very basic primal desires as a result of being bitten or born or cursed into being a werewolf then there is nothing shocking there. It would just be the catalist that unlocks those primal desires that are stored in our subconscious. I have seen this happen in people. I was in the army. my job was recon. there were a few times when we got into fire fights and engagements were we had to subdue our own men because they would go into a blood lust and could not tell friend from foe. After subduing them and a little time to calm them down they would return to "normal" and have no memory of their actions. This has happened all though out history; although this is not proof of people becoming werewolfs it can be the mental break down and just a mental thing.....

Just some thoughts...

The men went beserk. It's just a hormone & psychology thing. The state earned reputation from some who used this mindstate for battle - Beserkers. There are indeed myths to say they wore animal skins and would seem like the animals they wore so much that many believed they transformed into them. But this is merely a result of storytelling and retelling over a long period.

Likewise silver could be said to have caused harm to vampires via two probable methods: because they believed silver *should* harm them, because it is a valued metal considered pure and in same cases attributed to the mystical, protection, and divine. It's also why it is popular as a weakness for vampires too (though more popular is Garlic because garlic is also considered pure because it has medicinal properties).

Another possibility is the fact that people can be allergic to silver. Back then it would be possible to mistake a rash and swelling as a burn in reaction to silver. As this gets told and retold it is easy for it become "the flesh burned on contact with silver" as opposed to "they developed a burn-like mark after prolonged exposure to silver".

Ever play Chinese Whispers? Unless there is direct evidence to validate it the longer the myth has been around the less it resembles what it was originally. The fact is there is no direct evidence of these myths - no documented health reports done at the time or even securing the myth in writing like they did for religious mythologies (Ancient Egypt/Greece/Roman/Etc). It's folklore, handed down, by word of mouth. The only "writings" of such were only a summation of handed down tales not direct anecdotal evidence of seeing a man become a wolf.

There isn't anything to directly state that back then when these things were first discovered anybody believed in werewolves. Which is odd. If you discover a new creature you'd flee, write it down, do something to warn people. Beyond stories told to kids and to their kids and blah there's no evidence of this happening. Most likely the original events were seeing a man with a wolf-like demanour, or acting like a wolf, or going beserk. As the story got told and retold "wolflike" became "wolf" and "demeanour" became "transformed".

I mean even today we tell kids about Santa at the North Pole with elves and is a jolly rotund man with big white beard. But this is a lie. It was invented by marketing companies. Saint Nikolas Klaus was real, and did wear red, and helped the poor by giving a gift of food dropped down chimneys using rope at night because he believed even the poor should feast for Celebration of Christ ritual (literally: Christmas, as mas means 'celebration of'). When he died the tradition carried on - but a company tells a lie for marketing (but even the lie that this marketing created the modern Santa is also a lie!). His exact details were lost in time, and over the years he became many different versions (sometimes given different names) before he finally became the Modern Santa we know and love.

But while marketing was responsible for making this new image so mainstream people believed this marketing created this modern image. The company was Coca-Cola - they first utilised this image of Santa for their drinks in 1930. But while they mainstreamed it on a global scale they did not, in fact, create it. It was created over time, no one person is responsible for the current Santa image but was first printed in this form in a New York article about 4 years before Coca-Cola.

The modern santa is a far stretch from what we know of the original and it took a couple hundred years.

Werewolf and Vampire mythology has been around thousands of years - so how much do you think is still going to be true?

Werewolves are real im..... sorta one im not kiding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Proof, please.

[NeonLightChild]

Werewolves are real im..... sorta one im not kiding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As the old adage goes around here, we're all bitches at least once a month.

Don't know what to say for you, guys, but it fits us chickies just fine!

[CUPCAKE]

werwolfs DO EXIST I AM ONE IM ALSO A VAMPIRE SO:droolbld:

[NeonLightChild]

werwolfs DO EXIST I AM ONE IM ALSO A VAMPIRE SO:droolbld:

What are you doing here, then? This isn't were-vamp.com.

Either way, you should be dead. Tearing yourself apart to drink your own blood the one time of the month you're able to shift really doesn't bode for a long lifespan.

Now, shoo or grow up.

So there.

http://i52.tinypic.com/de4qqq.jpg

[Fenris_brood]

I love that animation right there...it makes my spleen happy...

Anyways, is a vampire werewolf a human that turns into a vampiric werewolf or a vampire that turns into a werewolf? Oh...wait...no, it's just complete bullshit, right, I forgot...

[Aerostel Trethiraz]

Vampires and Werewolves do not go together, first of all, a Vampire WOULD NEVER bite a Werewolf and vice versa, they could tell if a person was a Werewolf or not. Assuming Vampires and Werewolves are real, the only reason that a Vampire would bite without sucking is to reproduce, and once again, Vampires and Werewolves don't go together, neither do they like each other. I'm not taking sides, but I'm pretty sure a Werevamp would not be viable.... whatsoever

[J.L.R.]

Vampires and Werewolves do not go together, first of all, a Vampire WOULD NEVER bite a Werewolf and vice versa, they could tell if a person was a Werewolf or not. Assuming Vampires and Werewolves are real, the only reason that a Vampire would bite without sucking is to reproduce, and once again, Vampires and Werewolves don't go together, neither do they like each other. I'm not taking sides, but I'm pretty sure a Werevamp would not be viable.... whatsoever

Not to burst your bubble, but in the old lore there are several places where werewolf and vampire mythology crossed paths. In fact some accounts had a vampire being the reanimated corpse of a werewolf. So in short their mythology overlap in many places.

In regards to werewolves and vampires as FICTIONAL characters, they could interbreed, become best friends, and do whatever any author decides. That is the great thing about fiction, you can sort of tell any story you want.

In regards to werewolves and vampires being real... As I don't know any real werewolves or vampires personally, I don't know how they would get along. :beerchug:

[Ummidk]

I know a kid whos 17 yrs old, hes the closest thing tht can come close to being a lycan hes really hairy really hairy arms legs face everthing even his foot has hair, hes stronger than the average 17, we were playing football and it takes 7 people to take him down, hes really strong and has bad anger, hes quick rly quick, he has rly good vision and can.hear very well, Idk but hes not an average.17 yr old.. Idk though what do yuu think?

[Rylias Shadow]

Idk though what do yuu think?

That schools should spend more time teaching spelling and grammar.

I know a kid whos 17 yrs old, hes the closest thing tht can come close to being a lycan hes really hairy really hairy arms legs face everthing even his foot has hair, hes stronger than the average 17, we were playing football and it takes 7 people to take him down, hes really strong and has bad anger, hes quick rly quick, he has rly good vision and can.hear very well, Idk but hes not an average.17 yr old..

In all seriousness, it sounds like this kid has a pretty high level of testosterone to me, and maybe some anger issues. Along with being lucky enough to have all his senses work at a good level and being a good athlete. :shrug:

[Fenris_brood]

I know a kid whos 17 yrs old, hes the closest thing tht can come close to being a lycan hes really hairy really hairy arms legs face everthing even his foot has hair, hes stronger than the average 17, we were playing football and it takes 7 people to take him down, hes really strong and has bad anger, hes quick rly quick, he has rly good vision and can.hear very well, Idk but hes not an average.17 yr old.. Idk though what do yuu think?

Son, an agressive teenager on steroids suffering from hypertrichosis is no matter in which to play around, you should take this more seriously and accept your peers condition while trying to help him with his addictions and mental illnesses.

[Vendetta]

I think the obvious question we should all be asking is: "Does he continually take his shirt off for no apparent reason?"

[MorganaFang]

I know a kid whos 17 yrs old, hes the closest thing tht can come close to being a lycan hes really hairy really hairy arms legs face everthing even his foot has hair, hes stronger than the average 17, we were playing football and it takes 7 people to take him down, hes really strong and has bad anger, hes quick rly quick, he has rly good vision and can.hear very well, Idk but hes not an average.17 yr old.. Idk though what do yuu think?

Hey! for the last time, I am not a dude!

[LV426]

I know a kid whos 17 yrs old, hes the closest thing tht can come close to being a lycan hes really hairy really hairy arms legs face everthing even his foot has hair, hes stronger than the average 17, we were playing football and it takes 7 people to take him down, hes really strong and has bad anger, hes quick rly quick, he has rly good vision and can.hear very well, Idk but hes not an average.17 yr old.. Idk though what do yuu think?

Sasquatch

[Fenris_brood]

Sasquatch

We prefer the term "hairy people", LV.

[PsychoWolfy92]

Let me see if I can transfer this to the correct argument using what you're saying:

"The energy required to transform one species into another (assuming that it is even able to be captured) would result in a humongous amount of heat wihch would fry us just after the transformation starts."

It makes sense to me, at least. Living as a human > charred to a crisp as a werewolf

Lol this is just a joke and fun thing but what if the person was put in a big tub of ice, and constantly monitored as the people keep replenishing the tub with ice! :p

[queen2469]

1) afraid of silver. stabbing a werewolf through the heart with silver would kill it.
2) if you throw iron over a werewolf in wolf form, it transforms to human.
3) only good sight when in wolf form. however, they still can smell good in human form. (as is sniffing and stuff not deodrant :P)
4) usually tired after a full moon.
5) they dont change because of the moon. thats just when its due to happen. its a marking place and a reminder. they change because since they were scratched, a mutation has been injected into the cells, and it causes a mental and physical turbulence, activating the mutation and transforming.
6) girls can be werewolves too. no, sexist people, we get the love of turning into a werebeast too. no need to be jealous.
7) in human form, they are jumpy and hyper and normally hazel eyes, but the color can change weirdly, so if you are looking them in the eyes and the eye color changes to green and you have suspicions, you might want to run.
8) they can hear extremely well. you have to be a ninja to get away.
9) werewolves dont give a crap about guns. the bullets dont hurt them, as long as theyre not silver.
10) thy might need glasses but not wear them. it is uncomfortable for them once a werewolf in human form. we have yet to find out why.

[queen2469]

11) Werewolves in human form usually wear baggy clothes becuse they can change whenever they want. Its just ametuers who have to change at full moon.
12) they also may be from Texas or Wyoming or Idaho or something because there is a decent amount of space there.
13) i know they werewolves wear countryish clothes, like plaid, but idk why...
14) they are never that cold, unless in freezing tempatures and around silver, because of their increased body heat, so its almost as if they always had a fever. They are always hot because of the mutation in the gene and the compressed matter of the wolf, like the hair and getting bigger, makes fast moving energy and simulates a fever. Im really trying to not sound like a nerd right now, but that is the dummest way i could put it.
15) usually caravoristic, but very few are omnivores because they "dont accept" the change, and still try to act like regular people. *reference to Being Human =]*
16) i know for a fact that she-wolves REALLY dont like the B-word, which i will not post here. This isnt a joke because it is meant to be offensive and that is unappreciated. What would you feel like if your name was Jason and i went up to someone after they tripped and fell and called them a Jason!?
17) I HAVE genuinely (maybe...) seen a werewolf, because when we went camping a year ago, i saw somthing big just almost fly across the campground and it creeped me out o.e.
18)Girls tend to have gold or bronze hair, sometimes red, and boys are usually blonde or red. Maybe a beiber-haircut?
19) maybe get a haircut in the summer, like a dog :\ usually sheds its coat in warm weather?
20) dont ask where i got my sources... ;)

[queen2469]

also, since im noob, how do i start a new thread?? :S no bad replies please ;(

[AlphaGal]

sup its alpha gal and im here to post some stuff about werewolves : )

1) either extremely pale or tan
2) anxious frequently
3) baggy clothes
4) change caused by tidal pull
5) mutation gets passed through wounds from a werewolf
6) born in Texas alot :\ i guess its natural
7) gray wolves arent in texas anymore, but they moved closer to california
8) usually strongest or fastest person on your class or office or life could be a werewolf
9) very tall
10) sometimes lanky, but still strong
11) can be girls too
12) like being out side and camp alot
13) are usually bilingual or trilingual
14) cant stop moving or talking. natural instinct.
15) usually eat alot one day, and then little to nothing from there on

thanks for reading! please reply (nicely :3)!

[wolf]

11) Werewolves in human form usually wear baggy clothes becuse they can change whenever they want. Its just ametuers who have to change at full moon.
12) they also may be from Texas or Wyoming or Idaho or something because there is a decent amount of space there.
13) i know they werewolves wear countryish clothes, like plaid, but idk why...
14) they are never that cold, unless in freezing tempatures and around silver, because of their increased body heat, so its almost as if they always had a fever. They are always hot because of the mutation in the gene and the compressed matter of the wolf, like the hair and getting bigger, makes fast moving energy and simulates a fever. Im really trying to not sound like a nerd right now, but that is the dummest way i could put it.
15) usually caravoristic, but very few are omnivores because they "dont accept" the change, and still try to act like regular people. *reference to Being Human =]*
16) i know for a fact that she-wolves REALLY dont like the B-word, which i will not post here. This isnt a joke because it is meant to be offensive and that is unappreciated. What would you feel like if your name was Jason and i went up to someone after they tripped and fell and called them a Jason!?
17) I HAVE genuinely (maybe...) seen a werewolf, because when we went camping a year ago, i saw somthing big just almost fly across the campground and it creeped me out o.e.
18)Girls tend to have gold or bronze hair, sometimes red, and boys are usually blonde or red. Maybe a beiber-haircut?
19) maybe get a haircut in the summer, like a dog :\ usually sheds its coat in warm weather?
20) dont ask where i got my sources... ;)

For one thing i believe. Second where did you find this information, i really what to check it out! Third i just happen to like wearing countryish clothing, but why werewolves? And do you know if red or temperatures affects werewolves? Oh and by the way I'm a noob too, so you ain't alone! :rockon:

[Fenris_brood]

Ahem.

1) afraid of silver. stabbing a werewolf through the heart with silver would kill it.

Yep, stabbing anything through the center of their circulatory systems usually works.

2) if you throw iron over a werewolf in wolf form, it transforms to human.
I missed the part where the creature known as a "werewolf" became an irish fairy, although I'm sure that irish fairy is a very valid way of describing a werewolf these days.

3) only good sight when in wolf form. however, they still can smell good in human form. (as is sniffing and stuff not deodrant :P)
Note to self: Werewolf possibly not a creature that changes from human to wolf, but from wolf to humanoid mole.

4) usually tired after a full moon.
That must not work too well when the ladywolf has her period at the same time.

5) they dont change because of the moon. thats just when its due to happen. its a marking place and a reminder. they change because since they were scratched, a mutation has been injected into the cells, and it causes a mental and physical turbulence, activating the mutation and transforming.
"They don't change because of the moon" yet they are "usually tired after a full moon", furthers my theory that this is due to massive shagging. For the next post by this young lady/fellow, I would like to see the definitions of mutation, injection and turbulence.

6) girls can be werewolves too. no, sexist people, we get the love of turning into a werebeast too. no need to be jealous.
Yes, they can, we just don't like thinking about it because no one really likes hairs in Boobvalley. Except furries. Furries like hairs in Boobvalley.

7) in human form, they are jumpy and hyper and normally hazel eyes, but the color can change weirdly, so if you are looking them in the eyes and the eye color changes to green and you have suspicions, you might want to run.
"I'm usually quiet and skulking but runny nose". Nope, I do not follow that transition there, but hey, fuck that, they have pretty eyes, that matters.

8) they can hear extremely well. you have to be a ninja to get away.
Trying to make us imagine a fight between a werewolf and a ninja won't help you here.

9) werewolves dont give a crap about guns. the bullets dont hurt them, as long as theyre not silver.
I don't really give a crap about guns either, despite being allergic to all kinds of bullets, but I'll count that as common ground with a werewolf along with my hairy ass and excessive drooling while sleeping.

10) thy might need glasses but not wear them. it is uncomfortable for them once a werewolf in human form. we have yet to find out why.
Actually, this makes sense, glasses are fuckin'expensive! Good point there, but surely werewolves haven't thought of this, they just don't wear glasses because it doesn't fit their superhero identities.

11) Werewolves in human form usually wear baggy clothes becuse they can change whenever they want. Its just ametuers who have to change at full moon.
Now some do have to change during full moons...well! Herpa derp.

12) they also may be from Texas or Wyoming or Idaho or something because there is a decent amount of space there.
Or just because they might be moonshined hillbillies.

13) i know they werewolves wear countryish clothes, like plaid, but idk why...
...because they ARE moonshined hillbillies.

14) they are never that cold, unless in freezing tempatures and around silver, because of their increased body heat, so its almost as if they always had a fever. They are always hot because of the mutation in the gene and the compressed matter of the wolf, like the hair and getting bigger, makes fast moving energy and simulates a fever. Im really trying to not sound like a nerd right now, but that is the dummest way i could put it.
Yes it was.

15) usually caravoristic, but very fe--Wait, what? Ca-ra-vo-ris-tic? I'm stopping this quote right here, what the clusterfuck happened here?
Seriously?

Also, fiction, real life, different. Being Human's a decent show, but it's made with ACTORS. The werewolf you're referring too was also raped in an intergalatic bar by an undying, pansexual captain after driving a interstellar Titanic, but I don't see you referencing that.

16) i know for a fact that she-wolves REALLY dont like the B-word, which i will not post here. This isnt a joke because it is meant to be offensive and that is unappreciated. What would you feel like if your name was Jason and i went up to someone after they tripped and fell and called them a Jason!?
All them bitches, word.

17) I HAVE genuinely (maybe...) seen a werewolf, because when we went camping a year ago, i saw somthing big just almost fly across the campground and it creeped me out o.e.
You know, because it couldn't have been anything more plausible than a werewolf, like a cougar, a circus bear, a racoon with a sugar high or a giant purple flying squirrel.

18)Girls tend to have gold or bronze hair, sometimes red, and boys are usually blonde or red. Maybe a beiber-haircut?
Just shoot me now.

19) maybe get a haircut in the summer, like a dog :\ usually sheds its coat in warm weather?
Yeah, because werewolves are alot like My Little Pony.

20) dont ask where i got my sources...
If I asked, I think I would have to kill myself.

[queen2469]

Dear Fenis_Brood,
Who the hell are you and why are you changing and writing bad stuff about my quotes and info?
Sincerely,
I-dont-give-a-fuck-about-you :)

[Vendetta]

Dear Fenis_Brood,
Who the hell are you and why are you changing and writing bad stuff about my quotes and info?
First, they didn't change anything that you wrote as far as I can tell. And second, they're someone on an internet forum that YOU posted on for everyone to see and comment on.


Sincerely,
I-dont-give-a-fuck-about-you :)
Translation:
"Sincerely,
No-really-I-don't-care-even-though-I-bothered-to-write-this-whole-thing-out"


Sincerely Yours,

The Breakfast Club (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv1I4q6lOpo).

[Rylias Shadow]

Why are you changing and writing bad stuff about my quotes and info?

I warned you about this. :shrug:

[Vendetta]

9) werewolves dont give a crap about guns. the bullets dont hurt them, as long as theyre not silver.
This is kind of strange. I mean unless werewolves are somehow bullet-proof (i.e. they bounce off their uhhh, FUR) I can't see how bullets wouldn't hurt. I mean maybe not kill them, but hurt nonetheless.

Ohh and Fenris DID change ONE of your items. But let's be honest, everyone knows he did it (i.e. it's obvious from the change in voice and spelling).

Oh man, I just thought up a few more:

21) werewolfs cant spell very well. this is do to there dna and other things we dont understand yet.

22) they are sensed to be initmidating by normal ppl, and so will usally have lots of frends and arent uncool at all unlike what that jerk warren said in third period.

23) werewolves are mammals

24) werewolves fight ALL the time!

25) werewolves love to tottally flip out and kill people for no reason at all!!11!one

[MorganaFang]

13) i know they werewolves wear countryish clothes, like plaid, but idk why...

Flannel/plaid shirts are a staple of outdoorish types.. ie Werewolves shop at Eddie Bauer.

As a proud nordener from the woods of Minneesoda I know this to be fact.

It's not "countryish".

[Fenris_brood]

Dear Fenis_Brood,
Who the hell are you and why are you changing and writing bad stuff about my quotes and info?
Sincerely,
I-dont-give-a-fuck-about-you :)

Dear Madam,
I am rather pleased that we are disregarding all the development of an electronic means of communication and discussion and are instead writing in a more archaic term of lettering, perhaps for a certain je ne sais quoi of aristocracy. For the matter at hand I would like to underline that I did not intend a bad manner in my responding, doing so merely for the comical side of my contribution. As for the accusation of disturbing your quotation, I admit to doing so in the separation of each individual numberal and my subconscious intervenience in the middle of quote fifteen, I apologize for this, but I tend to overreact to extreme folly. With no further subject I have to observe that I rather enjoyed the smiley face on the end of your signature and the time you have devoted to me.
Yours truly:
Ashton Vor Jacklis Eclel the First

PS:Yes, I do have an inflated sense of self importance and I did consult an online dictionary atleast 3 times during the elaboration of this letter.