Comic Book Art

[Tempest]

What do you think about the way women are drawn in comics? Is it objectifying or sexy?

I'm talking about drawings like this:

http://www.razorfine.com/images/uploads/emma_frost_200.jpg

Of course, men have similar problems, with their inhuman muscles:

http://spacemonkey82.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/jean-grey-kissing-wolverine-posters.jpg

In my opinion, comic book artists need to tone it down quite a bit. What happened to tasteful costumes and realistic proportions? Some artists draw men with such gigantic muscles that they don't even have a neck. It's ridiculous and comical (no pun intended :p). Not to say that there aren't comic book artists out there that draw realistically, but it seems that more and more those artists are becoming the exception.

Opinions?

[Chriz]

Is it objectifying or sexy?

Both. ;)

[GhostBat]

I always thought that was just an artistic style. It never really occurred to me that it was objectifying, for men or women. Some artists prefer realistic styles, other prefer surreal styles. If it's popular, it'll sell.

[Vendetta]

Not to say that there aren't comic book artists out there that draw realistically, but it seems that more and more those artists are becoming the exception.
It depends on whether a comic artist wants a job, or to just be a struggling artist for the rest of his/her life. While no one holds a gun to these people's heads and tells them to draw this way, it IS the prevalent and probably preferred style at most of the big comic publishers.

[Chriz]

While no one holds a gun to these people's heads and tells them to draw this way, it IS the prevalent and probably preferred style at most of the big comic publishers.

It is. When I submitted art to Marvel, they told me they liked my stuff but it wasn't the in-demand style. They suggested I try out someplace more like Dark Horse, but I never got around to it (DH doesn't hire artists, you have to provide them a complete product and they'll decide if they want to publish you).

[J.L.R.]

It is also the fact that comic book characters have always been larger than life, and the art style reflects that. While I do appreciate realistic version of characters, I don't think anybody would care to see Wolverine if he looked like the average joe, with blades...

[Tempest]

It is also the fact that comic book characters have always been larger than life, and the art style reflects that. While I do appreciate realistic version of characters, I don't think anybody would care to see Wolverine if he looked like the average joe, with blades...

You mean, like Hugh Jackman with blades? 'Cause I'm pretty sure fangirls everywhere approve of that. :p But seriously, there's a big difference between this

http://www.icv2.com/images/14267wolvie_page7-xlg.jpg

and the picture in my first post. Wolvie in the second pic is still strong, still gives that superhero air, but he's also well-proportioned.

I should have worded myself better... I'm not blaming artists for wanting to get in the business, but I'm just saying that the art should be a bit more realistic. So, the trend's gotta change.

[kathryn]

Wolverine? As an average joe? Preposterous.

Well, now I want to see a female character who wasn't born with a perfect figure and super boobs. (Except for Power Girl...)

[Chriz]

I think you hit on something here, though. My main beef with the original images above isn't the sexification or objectification, it's simply the quality.

Modern comic book artists have figured out how to put a "big budget" shine on their artwork, but they really don't know how to make it work right at the core. It's like a movie with lousy acting and writing but amazing special effects.

Like the image of Wolverine kissing Jean Grey (I think?). It should be an image of passion and sensuality, but it's cold and banal. It's not particularly well composed, there's no "story" to the image beyond the simple idea that they're kissing. I mean, they're kissing just like anyone else might kiss, not the way Wolverine would kiss Jean Grey. You could swap out any other two characters without changing the poses.

And the image of the White Queen -- even if you could find a woman built like her, she'd have to strain to maintain that pose. It's not at all natural. An image of her being inadvertently sexy would resonate and tickle the imagination. This image is just "pretty smile" + "boobs" + "butt" arranged more or less randomly.

Byrne (the guy who drew your latest Wolverine example from the early 80s) understands anatomy. He understands when he's exaggerating it and he uses that exaggeration as a tool. But if you've read his comics, you're aware he knows full well what "normal" people look like and he does his best to keep a level of normality in his art. It grounds it, and fifty years from now he'll still be considered a classic artist while whoever drew those earlier images will be long forgotten.

[MorganaFang]

Oh man I really want to discuss this better but my brain is so fried right now.

I'll just interject that not all comics are of this extreeeeme!!! style. But I will agree that it seems like most modern superhero comics are losing a lot with their artists having little to no skill in correct anatomy. It's fanboys taking over as artists (http://progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html), they never bothered to study anatomy but they got "really good" at studying how to draw their comics.

It's actually my big problem with many "howto draw comics/manga/cartoons" books out there. They're basically cheats (http://jimsmashextended.blogspot.com/2008/07/greg-land-tracing-swiping-recycling.html) that don't give the person studying them a good foundation.

BTW Lambiek (http://lambiek.net/artists/index.htm) is my favorite site for learning about comics and cartoonists. It's cool to see how comics have evolved over the years. When superman just looked like Eugen Sandow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Sandow) in a weird costume (http://lambiek.net/artists/s/shuster_j.htm) as opposed to a bizarrely proportioned (http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/superman-vs.jedi.jpg) behemoth.

I actually prefer when the art is more "real" but stylized. I mean I like Alex Ross plenty and even Adam Hughes but I do really enjoy seeing the characters in realistic proportions. I also think DC does a good job of diversifying their art style. Marvel kind of goes with whatever is popular style-wise.

LOL Captain America (http://i.somethingawful.com/mjolnir/images/livestock~captain.jpg)

[Chriz]

LOL Captain America (http://i.somethingawful.com/mjolnir/images/livestock~captain.jpg)

Why am I not surprised that it's a Liefeld.

How that guy gets work at Marvel and I don't is beyond me. :p

[MorganaFang]

Why am I not surprised that it's a Liefeld.

How that guy gets work at Marvel and I don't is beyond me. :p

Well they have to have some weird ass standards to let him and stuff like this get through.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f24/dj_kornphlake/Comic/scan0032.jpg

[Tempest]

Well they have to have some weird ass standards to let him and stuff like this get through.

What is going on there?! Thanks for all the links, Morg. I know I posted pretty extreme examples, hence my disclaimer in my original post. :p It just gets annoying when I see women who are skinnier than me with boobs that are 3 times my cup size, and like I said, it seems to be coming more and more frequent. No woman should make me look fat, especially if she's a superhero.

[Chriz]

Getting back on topic, men and women in superhero comics are idealized, at the very least. It's not surprising to see muscles that no male could build or boob/waist ratios that no female could achieve. There's also often a head-size-to-height distortion, making characters seem unhumanly tall and lean.

Does it cause we mere mortals to feel inferior? Perhaps. But I don't think comic books are the sole (or even main) culprit here.

http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu204/TWinn101/megan-fox-transformers-2.jpg

While Megan Fox isn't proportioned unrealistically per se (considering she's a real person), if you're not built like her your chances of ever being built like her are just about as low as the chances of you being built like the White Queen. Fox was chosen not for her "non objectifiable" qualities but because she's young, curvy, and in reasonable shape. I'd be very surprised if she has a film career in ten years.

When CGI gets good enough that Hollywood no longer needs real actors, you can bet we'll see the same kinds of distortions you see in comics. In fact, it's already happening:

http://www.reelmovienews.com/images/gallery/angelina-jolie-nude.jpg

That body wasn't based on Angelina's, but that of a much younger (and thinner) woman (http://www.betus.com/miss-betus/americas-sweethearts/2008-12/rachel-bernstein).

[behemoth]

Well they have to have some weird ass standards to let him and stuff like this get through.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f24/dj_kornphlake/Comic/scan0032.jpg

I actually know someone that draws almost like this, only this drawing shows more a form of perspective than his stuff. http://sean-izaakse.deviantart.com/art/CJ3-pg11-colour-64881893
http://sean-izaakse.deviantart.com/art/Iron-Man-86757608

I'm currently doing colours on his lines (not in the drawings above) and all I can say is that it's an excruciatingly painful task since I'm fixing up all his perspective issues. It's basically like redrawing all his work.

[MorganaFang]

I'm currently doing colours on his lines (not in the drawings above) and all I can say is that it's an excruciatingly painful task since I'm fixing up all his perspective issues. It's basically like redrawing all his work.

This is why inkers and colorists are becoming saviors really.

Though I have some serious issues with some comic colorists. There is this husband and wife team where the wife does the colors and it is just detracting from her husbands descent work. They've done work in Fables.

I know my own coloring leaves something to be desired but professionally I'd never send in my stuff that looks so "dirty" or muddy.

[metatron]

Greetings all,
I thought I'd chime in on this topic since I was in the biz at the hight of the "Boobie Invasion"... At the time when I started working in the biz for a couple small independent publishers there was a transition happening in the industry that I feel eventually led to it's demise. Not only were comic book stories becoming more darker and darker in tone, but the covers were rivaling Playboy for sensuality. This was great for the short term big money pay off and some companies did well during this time. Image, Shi, London Night Studios and High Impact studios broke and set new heights in sales records, but this was a departure from the basic formula that kept the comic book industry chugging along for over 40 years. It was the parent who brought their child to the comic book store and encouraged them to collect comics they way their parents taught them that kept the comic book presses churning out hundreds of stories month after month. When parents saw what was being offered in the store shelves at the time, many stopped bringing their kids to the comic shops. The comic shops were filling with teenagers and middle-aged men who would inevitably outgrow or get bored with the hobby leaving no new blood in their place. The stores found it difficult to compete with the new threat in the horizon which eventually in my opinion killed the market... Video games. There were many factors that contributed to the downfall of the comic book industry, but I think this was the first dagger in a failing market.

[Lycan_Saviour]

Modern comic book artists have figured out how to put a "big budget" shine on their artwork, but they really don't know how to make it work right at the core. It's like a movie with lousy acting and writing but amazing special effects.

I agree. thats why i read manga. sure its not always the best art, but it the emotion, and the way you really connect with the characters. recently i read the claymore manga, and i'm still in love with clare and raki =)

[Lithium]

LOL Captain America (http://i.somethingawful.com/mjolnir/images/livestock~captain.jpg)

At least he has somewhere to perch his beer if the bar is crowded.

[Jaga]

yeah i agree...i am not a fan of overly buff characters...the art is talented for sure...but not my thing

[MidgeBourbon]

I find it funny that people get so up in arms about this. As a comic artist myself I can say first hand, we draw that way because it's fun to draw in an exagerated manner. Subtlety is a lot of effort for something that won't be seen very well after reduction and doesn't really portray the message or make use of the medium. Comics are all about exagerrated actions, scenarios, expression, and appearances. Muscles and skimpy clothes are all a part of that. Not to mention, it's fun. Really fun. Check the poses and positions as well. You'll find that those aren't realistic either.

[behemoth]

I find it funny that people get so up in arms about this. As a comic artist myself I can say first hand, we draw that way because it's fun to draw in an exagerated manner. Subtlety is a lot of effort for something that won't be seen very well after reduction and doesn't really portray the message or make use of the medium. Comics are all about exagerrated actions, scenarios, expression, and appearances. Muscles and skimpy clothes are all a part of that. Not to mention, it's fun. Really fun. Check the poses and positions as well. You'll find that those aren't realistic either.

I don't really think it's an issue about realism that unsettles people (well, not everybody though). I think personally, as a comic artist myself, that some pencillers often disfigure the exaggeration to such an extent that it doesn't appear exaggerated or characterized but simply just wrong or a bad attempt at realism (specifically referring to Liefeld's Cpt America).

I get what you're saying, it's not about realism. In fact I'd rather buy a comic that contains art that's more on the front of stylization/characterization (referring to comics like Bone, Tank Girl or Blacksad). I'd take expression and action over realism any day, way more fun.

Just my two cents.

[kathryn]

And my two cents are that there are multiple styles of comic book art, from super realism, to just stick figures. But that's only one part of it. There's also those who chose beauty over ugly truths, and those who experiment while others just stick to the basic formula.

There's so many different styles and ways to draw comics, that to slam all of them just because a few artists aren't anatomically realistic is kinda wrong.

I've been wanting to raise this question for a while: this thread is called comic book art, but it was opened about how men and women in superhero comics are generally portrayed really unrealistic. Why isn't this titled something else? Or am I right in thinking that this thread can be a discussion about comics in general?

[Chriz]

40 Worst Rob Liefeld Drawings (http://progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html)

[Brad Whitewolf]

I write and draw Graphic novels. I am presently working on one called Nightmare Noir. The second story is called The Werewolf Of Black Mesa, and is a Navajo/ Dine story. We'll see what comes of it. As far as "bubble girls" go, I draw girls like that sometimes. It IS the artists fantasy after all.

[Chriz]

Strong Female Characters! (http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=311)

[MorganaFang]

Strong Female Characters! (http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=311)


I want Kate to do more stories with these foine ladies.

[FMtRIS]

I write and draw Graphic novels. I am presently working on one called Nightmare Noir. The second story is called The Werewolf Of Black Mesa, and is a Navajo/ Dine story. We'll see what comes of it. As far as "bubble girls" go, I draw girls like that sometimes. It IS the artists fantasy after all.

Ah cool! I have always like the skinwalker legends and really enjoyed the aetherial weaving of myth and detective work in any of Tony Hillerman novels. I once went to Mesa Verde and that is where I got my first Tony Hillerman novel. It was really interesting reading that and being there in the vicinity of the myths and legends. It was symbiotic for me.
What were we talking about; proportion and such? I find myself delving into the art of misshapen things (Innsmouth Look) or primitives given shading such as Mike Mignola's werks.

[wolf]

i can't draw, but i do comics with stick figures... there not that good though :D