Lethal Injection, is it humane?

[Klark]

I'm currently writing the "Our Opinion" piece for a column in next weeks newspaper about whether or not Lethal Injection as a means of carrying out a capital punishment sentence is humane.

Nebraska recently suspended its death penalty in February 2008 when the electric chair was ruled unconstitutional because it was viewed as cruel and unusual punishment. In May 2009, our governor signed a bill making lethal injection the sole method for execution in the state.

My thoughts, which also are the thoughts to be expressed by our newspaper on this one, is that of all the ways capital punishment has been completed, including beheading, stoning, firing squad, gas chamber, and hanging, lethal injection is about the most humane since it's akin to euthanizing a pet. I mean, the convicted simply goes unconscious before the death drugs are administered.

This thread is not about whether or not there should be a death penalty. It is only about whether lethal injection is or is not a humane way to take the life of a prisoner on death row. For all intents and purposes, this thread assumes every person in the world is for the death penalty. If you are not, that's ok, but please don't take this thread in that direction.

[Vendetta]

This thread is not about whether or not there should be a death penalty. It is only about whether lethal injection is or is not a humane way to take the life of a prisoner on death row. For all intents and purposes, this thread assumes every person in the world is for the death penalty. If you are not, that's ok, but please don't take this thread in that direction.
I would think the bigger concern is the debate over whether the death penalty should even TRY to be humane.

And yeah, I think lethal injection is plenty humane.

[Chriz]

This thread is not about whether or not there should be a death penalty. It is only about whether lethal injection is or is not a humane way to take the life of a prisoner on death row. For all intents and purposes, this thread assumes every person in the world is for the death penalty. If you are not, that's ok, but please don't take this thread in that direction.

Lethal injection is certainly humane in any sense of the word that I can imagine.

[Klark]

I would think the bigger concern is the debate over whether the death penalty should even TRY to be humane.

And yeah, I think lethal injection is plenty humane.

Ok, elaborating on that, it's ok to debate if the death penalty should be humane, such as lethal injection.

What I would like to avoid is a debate on the death penalty itself being a legal sentence to a prisoner.

[Chiron Jackal]

Relevant: How To Kill A Human Being Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do9VLZCHlN0), Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7qK89oHnGI), Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPz_Qbjf330), Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vnBsDtoyKc&feature=related), and Part 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo1RTebuonk&feature=related).

Skinny version for those who don't feel like watching videos: it's possible that lethal injection is incredibly painful and it's not performed by doctors, which thereby increases the chances of something being done wrong. We do have more humane options, but no one seems interested.

[Klark]

Relevant: How To Kill A Human Being Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do9VLZCHlN0), Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7qK89oHnGI), Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPz_Qbjf330), Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vnBsDtoyKc&feature=related), and Part 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo1RTebuonk&feature=related).

Skinny version for those who don't feel like watching videos: it's possible that lethal injection is incredibly painful and it's not performed by doctors, which thereby increases the chances of something being done wrong. We do have more humane options, but no one seems interested.

Please tell us what those options are. I'm interested in hearing about them. I would think that going unconscious would provide a relief from any feelings the other two drugs, one to halt respiration by paralysis and one to induce cardiac arrest, caused and make them non-existent.

[Raiden]

Lethal injection is certainly humane in any sense of the word that I can imagine.

In continuation with Chriz' response...

I personally believe that lethal injection is indeed quite humane in all sense of the word. I mean, one being sentenced to death doesn't truly need to feel much pain to be cleared from society.

Then again, it always helps to thinking about your other options and compare them to how humane they are next to something like lethal injection.

Shane

[Chriz]

Skinny version for those who don't feel like watching videos: it's possible that lethal injection is incredibly painful and it's not performed by doctors, which thereby increases the chances of something being done wrong. We do have more humane options, but no one seems interested.

Do you have a skinny explanation for how something can be painful if you're unconscious?

[MorganaFang]

I think what is trying to be said is that without the doctors or someone who knows the effects of the drugs present it is going unnoticed whether or not the person undergoing the process is reacting properly to the injection.

Like if they are immune to the stuff that knocks them out or hyper allergic so they feel ever organ in their body exploding. But the ratio of people who would go through that is a lot smaller than those who would just fall into a peaceful sleep death so I don't really care about the ones who don't.

I don't value the life of someone who doesn't value other lives.

[Chiron Jackal]

Do you have a skinny explanation for how something can be painful if you're unconscious?
If the Sodium thiopental is given incorrectly or in insufficient amounts the concentration in the brain will become low enough for consciousness in 5-10 minutes, by which point the Pancuronium bromide would have rendered them paralyzed which would make it rather difficult to know that something has gone wrong.

[LucimOfTheMoon]

Honestly compared to stoning, hanging, beheading, electric chair, and even a rifle line, lethal injection is very humane. Whether or not they deserve that humanity is another story.

I could care less if we are humane to someone who was inhuman in life. (And yes, I meant inhuman not inhumane) Someone who has murdered, raped, or otherwise deemed themself a major menace to society needs nothing more than to be removed from said society, kindness be damned.

[Chriz]

If the Sodium thiopental is given incorrectly or in insufficient amounts the concentration in the brain will become low enough for consciousness in 5-10 minutes, by which point the Pancuronium bromide would have rendered they paralyzed which would make it rather difficult to know that something has gone wrong.

Understood. So it has the potential for misapplication, but when applied right it's painless.

[Chiron Jackal]

Understood. So it has the potential for misapplication, but when applied right it's painless.

Right-O. I was mostly pointing out that lethal injection isn't some amazing perfect thing, and when it screws up it screws up quite badly.

Anyone have a source on how often these sorts of things get botched? I can't imagine that they're too common, but it wouldn't be the first time I'd be unpleasantly surprised.

[NeonLightChild]

I know there was a to-do about some guy in Ohio having no veins whatsoever because he used to be a junkie, so it was difficult finding a place to inject the stuff. Unfortunately, I don't have much literature or news articles about it now.

They just put to death a guy here a day or two ago, and apparently Ohio still has some issues with the process but they're not bad enough to be unconstitutional. The new step is to sedate the prisoner enough so that when the shoulder is shaken, upper arm is pinched and he is yelled at, there is no response, so anything that goes wrong won't be felt. Sad thing that this guy, while drunk off his ass, locked his female victim in a car boot and set the car on fire, but he got to die all comfy and asleep with a tummy full of porterhouse :mad:

I agree with Lucim though. There are many other ways to die ("Having your nuts bit off by a Laplander, now that's a way to die!"), and I'd probably choose euthanasia over all of them.

[Tux]

Well next to things such as being drawn and quartered, hanged, burned at the stake, sawing, impaled, crucified, beheaded, or any of the other ways to die that people could mention, lethal injection tends to be quicker and a lot less messy, not to mention not as painful for the person being executed. So I would tend to say it’s a bit more humane.

[Lore]

Well next to things such as being drawn and quartered, hanged, burned at the stake, sawing, impaled, crucified, beheaded, or any of the other ways to die that people could mention, lethal injection tends to be quicker and a lot less messy, not to mention not as painful for the person being executed. So I would tend to say it’s a bit more humane.

As far as I know the valid methods of applying the death penalty in the U.S are lethal injection, electric chair, hanging, firing squad and gas chamber.

I recall a few years back a death row prisoner requested and was granted death by firing squad. I'll have to look that up.

[Chiron Jackal]

As far as I know the valid methods of applying the death penalty in the U.S are lethal injection, electric chair, hanging, firing squad and gas chamber.

I recall a few years back a death row prisoner requested and was granted death by firing squad. I'll have to look that up.

PDF fact sheet on executions in the US (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/FactSheet.pdf)

Executions since 1976 by method used
987 Lethal Injection
155 Electrocution
11 Gas Chamber
3 Hanging
2 Firing Squad

Both of the post-Furman firing squad executions were in Utah; Gary Gilmore in '77 and John Albert Taylor in '96. Taylor specifically asked for the firing squad because he wanted it to be "awkward for state officials."

Idaho and Oklahoma are the only states in the US in which death by firing squad is a legal option, though both use it only as a back-up measure - lethal injection is their primary. Much to my chagrin Idaho has a bill which may pass and eliminate firing squad there.

Quite frankly, I think we should have every reasonably decent form of execution available and the condemned should have the right to choose how they die.

[Shaun]

Lethal injection is a hell of a lot more humane than the electric chair, so yeah it is the most humane. What I don't get is why they use a sterile needle and clean the area and all that crap, he is going to die from the injection, who gives a shit about cleaning the spot and making sure everything is sterile and whatever.

[WhiteHowlerGalliard]

In my vindictive mind, I believe, should the condemned have killed someone, they should be put to death in the manner they killed others.

I believe, also, we should make prisoners fight to the death, for entertainment. Last one standing gets a simple bullet. The others get a wide variety of choice of death, depending on how the other person decided to kill them... will it be the shovel, or the chainsaw? Choices choices.

They lost their humanity, and the consideration thereof, when they violated/murdered/ assaulted, etc people in the manner they did, in my opinion.

Since we as a species are "past all that", then I still suggest giving them options, but let them die.

[Klark]

Lethal injection is a hell of a lot more humane than the electric chair, so yeah it is the most humane. What I don't get is why they use a sterile needle and clean the area and all that crap, he is going to die from the injection, who gives a shit about cleaning the spot and making sure everything is sterile and whatever.

A lot of people ask that question, and my research on it did turn up an answer.

First, the reason sterility is maintained is because it is a common practice to use sterile needles.

Secondly, in case the convict has the IVs in their arm when they receive a stay of execution. There was one case of that, although the person was executed 13 months later.

Thirdly, it helps decrease the chance that some bacteria would get in and reduce the effectiveness of the drugs being pumped into the arm.

[LucimOfTheMoon]

In my vindictive mind, I believe, should the condemned have killed someone, they should be put to death in the manner they killed others.

I believe, also, we should make prisoners fight to the death, for entertainment. Last one standing gets a simple bullet. The others get a wide variety of choice of death, depending on how the other person decided to kill them... will it be the shovel, or the chainsaw? Choices choices.

They lost their humanity, and the consideration thereof, when they violated/murdered/ assaulted, etc people in the manner they did, in my opinion.

Since we as a species are "past all that", then I still suggest giving them options, but let them die.
As awesome as that sounds, I think something about it "degrading our society" comes into play. Although we make movies about it all the time, so i personaly fail to see how that would do anything more than entertain those of us with the stomach to handle the blood and inevitable stream of swearing.

[Lore]

I believe, also, we should make prisoners fight to the death, for entertainment. Last one standing gets a simple bullet. The others get a wide variety of choice of death, depending on how the other person decided to kill them... will it be the shovel, or the chainsaw? Choices choices.

They lost their humanity, and the consideration thereof, when they violated/murdered/ assaulted, etc people in the manner they did, in my opinion.


They lost their humanity so we should follow suit and lose ours by making them fight to the death for entertainment? Should we throw them to lions as well?
One debased act does not cancel out another. At the least killing them in a humane way shows that some of us have a little bit of humanity.

[Vendetta]

Just out of curiousity, does anyone have any evidence or opinion that electrocution, gas chamber or hanging are less humane than beheading (provided the head is completely removed.)

They lost their humanity so we should follow suit and lose ours by making them fight to the death for entertainment? Should we throw them to lions as well?
If we lose our humanity by watching entertainment that portrays violence, bloodshed or death, I'd say our humanity is probably already gone. Personally I'd rather see them undergo medical experiments that we generally reserve for animals (or crash test dummies.) It may not fit certain people's definition of humane, but at least it gives something back to society at large. But yeah, failing that I'm all for gladiatorial entertainment.

[Klark]

Just out of curiousity, does anyone have any evidence or opinion that electrocution, gas chamber or hanging are less humane than beheading (provided the head is completely removed.)

In beheading, it's proven that the brain stays alive for several seconds after the act, allowing the condemned to potentially see their own beheaded body. This can be, and has been, condemned as an act of cruel and unusual punishment.

Gas Chamber can cause asphyxiation while the person to be executed is still conscious, which would be or could be extremely painful, which would constitute cruel and unusual punishment.

The Electric Chair is deemed cruel and unusual because although the first of three jolts is meant to immediately cause brain damage and unconsciousness, there's a chance it won't. Electricity is what our brains and bodies use anyway, so therefore it can be theorized that a condemned person in the electric chair is alive until the electricity is turned off. The second jolt is meant to stop the heart and the third jolt is meant to essentially burn away internal organs.

And in hanging, if the drop doesn't immediately break the neck, the hanged is left to be choked to death. Considered cruel and unusual punishment. There was a man here in Sidney that was hanged twice by a lynch mob because he didn't die the first time. He merely choked until he escaped. The second time, they stayed there until he choked to death.

[Vendetta]

In beheading, it's proven that the brain stays alive for several seconds after the act, allowing the condemned to potentially see their own beheaded body. This can be, and has been, condemned as an act of cruel and unusual punishment.
Wouldn't it be rather simple to blindfold the condemned?

[Destiny]

I, personally, really could care less if it's inhumane the way we kill those on death row, but there's also the side of me that sees how it might not be that humane of us to kill them in ways such as hanging for everyone to view on T.V. (If that's what you meant by entertainment.) But, lethal injection? It seems like one of the most humane ways out there. Though, a quick bullet through the head could work just fine. We could also let the family of the person the assault was brought against choose the way the person dies. I used to think that someone should die the same way the person they killed died. I feel obligated to try and retain some humanity and go with lethal injection as being the most humane and the one we should use, but I don't think we should tolerate killings either and, even though it doesn't work, we should make the repercusions for these crimes as inhumane as possible.

[UNODRAGONE]

I know the right thing to do is let the inmate die a humane death and not stoop to their level, but in all honesty, besides moral issues, why not? Why be humane?

[Vendetta]

I know the right thing to do is let the inmate die a humane death and not stoop to their level, but in all honesty, besides moral issues, why not? Why be humane?
What are there other than moral issues?

It's the same reason we don't target innocent civilian populations or buildings (err, intentionally that is,) with airstrikes, unlike the way a lot of terrorists operate.

[Zombie]

I personally think we need to bring back 'Ol Sparky (electric chair) 'Ol Gassy (gas chamber) and 'Ol Hangy (self-explanitory) with a vigerous process to stop repeals and execute these monsters as soon as possible. It is outrageous that Officer Daniel Faulkner`s killer is still drawing breath over 2 decades after he was slain.:mad::mad::mad:

-Z

[Vendetta]

I personally think we need to bring back 'Ol Sparky (electric chair) 'Ol Gassy (gas chamber) and 'Ol Hangy (self-explanitory) with a vigerous process to stop repeals and execute these monsters as soon as possible. It is outrageous that Officer Daniel Faulkner`s killer is still drawing breath over 2 decades after he was slain.:mad::mad::mad:

-Z
Yeah, execute them before anyone can find out if they were actually innocent. I can totally get on board with this.

[JoshtheWolf]

Given all the other ways of execution, I think lethal injection is pretty humane.

[UNODRAGONE]

too bad a pole wasn't attached to this thread, it would have given you a percentage to work with :(

[Ulfstan]

I apologize in advance for a post that contributes almost nothing to the conversation.

Who cares about whether or not it's humane? I say we go back to the draw-and-quarter method.

[Chiron Jackal]

Who cares about whether or not it's humane?

Amendment VIII to the United States Constitution cares.

That's the one that prohibits, among other things, cruel and unusual punishments.

[Ulfstan]

Amendment VIII to the United States Constitution cares.

That's the one that prohibits, among other things, cruel and unusual punishments.

Yeah, not my favorite amendment. :-/ I'd love to chemically castrate child molesters.

[Vendetta]

Yeah, not my favorite amendment. :-/ I'd love to chemically castrate child molesters.
Even innocent ones?

[Klark]

Even innocent ones?

Are there innocent ones? I would understand if he said suspected child molesters, of course, in this day and age, any suspect of any crime might as well of already done it because everyone will believe they did regardless of the evidence.

Accusation is a heavy thing.

[BlackRosePhantom]

Personally, I don't think it's all too humane. There really isn't any 'humane' way to kill. Even with lethal injection, the person is put on display like an animal in the zoo, has to go through years and years of time in jail (As Nelson Mandela said, when you're in jail you come face to face with time itself, which is the most frightful thing in the world), going through appeal after appeal, each one getting rejected, each one the resentencing of your inevitable punishment that seems to take forever to come, each one rekilling your hope of at a change to live, then being mocked with a complimentary meal, leaving you bitter. And that's not mentioning the police brutality they most likely go through while on death row or religious revelations at the face of death. It's complete psychological torture no matter the actual means of killing is, and that in of itself is inhumane. So until we can get a faster, more definate way of convicting someone for capital punishment, then there won't ever be a humane way to kill them.


For those who do get appealed and proven innocent, they better get a hefty sum of money, as well as free counseling sessions for at least two years.

[Sinanju]

This thread is so typically WW.com :rolleyes:

YEAH MAN WE SHOULD TOTALLY LAUNCH MURDERERS INTO THE SUN WHILE MAKING THEM FIGHT OTHER OFFENDERS TO THE DEATH IN THE SPACESHIP'S ARENA

There is some strong evidence to suggest that the injection cocktail's physiological effect induces terror and doesn't sedate the way it's intended to. Then again, theres evidence to suggest that it is humane too. It needs to be looked at closely.

For those who do get appealed and proven innocent, they better get a hefty sum of money, as well as free counseling sessions for at least two years.

In some states, but in most places it's just "lol, sorry we put you on death row for 25 years, heres a bus ticket to town and $17, have a good day man, sorry about the misunderstanding and all!!"

PS the death penalty is a terrible option that costs more than life imprisonment and our court system sends a shockingly unacceptable number of innocent men to death row.

PPS: "not a fan" of the seventh amendment? What the fuck is wrong with some of you people.

[GhostBat]

YEAH MAN WE SHOULD TOTALLY LAUNCH MURDERERS INTO THE SUN WHILE MAKING THEM FIGHT OTHER OFFENDERS TO THE DEATH IN THE SPACESHIP'S ARENA

Oh man, that would be AWESOME!

But for real, anyone knowing that he's being injected with a substance that will end his life will probably feel terror, but what do I know?

There are always new and better ways to carry out the death sentence, but lethal injection sure beats the hell out of the electric chair.

[Sinanju]

Oh man, that would be AWESOME!
But for real, anyone knowing that he's being injected with a substance that will end his life will probably feel terror, but what do I know?


No, what i've read is more along the lines of "oh holy shit my organs are exploding and I can feel everything happening but I cant open my mouth to scream because I'm paralyzed but not sedated because an unqualified practitioner is performing this procedure"

[Ulfstan]

No, what i've read is more along the lines of "oh holy shit my organs are exploding and I can feel everything happening but I cant open my mouth to scream because I'm paralyzed but not sedated because an unqualified practitioner is performing this procedure"

Imagining that gave my a little chuckle. Thanks. :)

Seems to me that a bullet to the back of the head would be a lot easier. Cheaper, too. Or, Hel, a guillotine.

[MetaKittie]

What if you lie there paralyzed while people think you're dead or something? As in still conscious?
Doesn't sound fun at all.
Are these the same drugs used for putting down the puppies and kitties?
Because in most cases I'm against euthanasia for them, but if theres a rapist being put down, have at it.

[Klark]

But for real, anyone knowing that he's being injected with a substance that will end his life will probably feel terror, but what do I know?

There are always new and better ways to carry out the death sentence, but lethal injection sure beats the hell out of the electric chair.

Anyone told they are going to die will feel terror and that terror increases as the day of death approaches. I suppose someone put on death row should be able to opt in for a surprise death.

Like one day mulling around the cell, and all of a sudden from behind, a blow dart to the neck and they fall over dead. The guards jump out and scream, "BOOYAH BITCH!"

I still say lethal injection is more humane than just about any other way we have used to carry out a death sentence.

While there are people who say that the victim lies there paralyzed not being able to breathe, there are roughly 500 people in the US who undergo surgery and can feel every bit of surgery done to them. The fraction of that occurring is something 1 out of every 100,000 surgeries performed a year. So I'm comfortable with that rate when it comes to the lethal injection. Same anesthetic used to put them under, I believe.

[Vendetta]

Are there innocent ones? I would understand if he said suspected child molesters, of course, in this day and age, any suspect of any crime might as well of already done it because everyone will believe they did regardless of the evidence.

Accusation is a heavy thing.
Are you trying to say we NEVER convict innocent people?

[Chiron Jackal]

Yeah, not my favorite amendment.

You don't enjoy protection from fucked-up punishments and excessive bail? Go to a country like Mexico and break the law then come back and tell us how much you love it.

:-/ I'd love to chemically castrate child molesters.
Except in cases where the subject is violently insane and the resulting chemical change is beneficial to behavior, compulsory sterilization has been deemed a crime against humanity.

In addition to that it's been shown that that it does little to nothing to detour sex offenders. The only difference is they generally then have to resort to object rape.

I'm sorry, you lose. Please play again.

[Klark]

Are you trying to say we NEVER convict innocent people?

I don't believe I implied that at all. What I said and what I meant, Ven, was that in this day and age, when someone is suspected of something, they might as well have done the deed because people continue to stigmatize someone who was accused of something regardless of whether they committed the crime or did not commit the crime.

A recent release from a Nebraska jail of a now-proven innocent man who spent more than a decade in prison on a murder conviction proves that innocents are wrongly convicted.

You'll need to try and pick a fight with a different post, my friend.

[Rainheart]

Lethal injection, in my opinion, is too humane for those who've warranted a death penalty. My opinion is make them suffer as badly as whoever they made suffer. And it doesn't take much looking to find some really horrific cases.

I mean, if someone went out and riddled a passerby with bullets and let them die of bleeding because none of the shots hit something immediately fatal, wouldn't the shooter deserve the same? I just think that the needle's too easy of a way out, and it sickens me that it's now the only way we implement a death sentence, and that's only if the state allows death penalties.

[Chiron Jackal]

Sinking to the level of those we deem worthy of death seems like a step in the wrong direction though, doesn't it?

We put them places on death row because we have decided they are terrible for causing so much suffering. Wouldn't we too qualify as terrible if we went around causing an equal amount of suffering?

Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. I do believe Gandhi was right on that.

Edit: Can you imagine the state of the world if after WW2 we gassed all the German soldiers and Nazi collaborators?

[Ulfstan]

Sinking to the level...

Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind...

Human beings are violent, no exceptions. You are just as horrible as everyone else. :)

Edit: Can you imagine the state of the world if after WW2 we gassed all the German soldiers and Nazi collaborators?

Yeah, there would probably be far fewer people parading around with my religious symbols and claiming them to be symbols of "Aryan" supremacy and power.

[Vendetta]

Human beings are violent, no exceptions.
Wow, way to generalize and engage in ridiculous absolutism for which you have about ZERO back-up for, what a surprise.

Yeah, there would probably be far fewer people parading around with my religious symbols and claiming them to be symbols of "Aryan" supremacy and power.
How do you figure that?


And Klark, I wasn't trying to start an arguement, just pointing out that it's why we have the system we do (as flawed as it is.) And you're right, I didn't understand your point (which I DO happen to agree with.)

[Rainheart]

Sinking to the level of those we deem worthy of death seems like a step in the wrong direction though, doesn't it?

Ah yes, but in doing something as inhumane as they have done, they have forfeit their own humanity, and their right to be treated humanely.

We put them places on death row because we have decided they are terrible for causing so much suffering. Wouldn't we too qualify as terrible if we went around causing an equal amount of suffering?

Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. I do believe Gandhi was right on that.

I don't think we would, no. Somebody has to re-balance the equation. And the problem with Gandhi's words is that yes, they are wise beyond time. But we're pretty much a lost cause as a species.

Edit: Can you imagine the state of the world if after WW2 we gassed all the German soldiers and Nazi collaborators?

Yep. A world with less German soldiers and Nazi collaborators.

[Vendetta]

I don't think we would, no. Somebody has to re-balance the equation.
Rebalance WHAT equation exactly? Killing someone doesn't bring dead people back to life, all it does is make one more dead person. There's nothing to solve for.

Yep. A world with less German soldiers and Nazi collaborators.
Uhhh, there are less now anyway. Also what's wrong exactly with German soldiers? Should we execute all sodiers because they fought in wars? Not every German soldier was a bad dude, just mostly the upper echelon of leadership.

Also if you believe humans as a rule are a lost cause, why even bother punishing people then?

[Klark]

But we're pretty much a lost cause as a species.

That's the same as saying the whole body is a waste and should be eliminated because of cancer in the pinky toe.

Our species as a whole can be represented as a multi-celled creature. Some of the cells aren't going to play ball, but that doesn't mean the organism as a whole should disappear.

[Ulfstan]

Wow, way to generalize and engage in ridiculous absolutism for which you have about ZERO back-up for, what a surprise.

I smell 'baww'. Calm down. ;)

Every person on this planet is capable of violent behavior and the most brutal, depraved things you can imagine. It's hard-wired into us. Whether or not we do it is a different matter.

How do you figure that?

I doubt skinheads would take pride in the Swastika if those who wore it as a symbol of idiotic hatred and supremacy were as embarassed as I wish they had been.

[Vendetta]

It's hard-wired into us. Whether or not we do it is a different matter.
Uhh what? This sounds contradictory.

I doubt skinheads would take pride in the Swastika if those who wore it as a symbol of idiotic hatred and supremacy were as embarassed as I wish they had been.
Uhhh you know many skinheads and neo-Nazi's use plenty of OTHER non-Swastika symbols right?
http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/processed_new_images/kkk_150.gif
http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/processed_new_images/wcotc_150.gif
http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/processed_new_images/hammerskins_gear_150.gif
http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/processed_new_images/american_front_150.gif

I could go on...

And in fact the first symbol for the KKK was around and used for racist terrorism long before Hitler ever came on the scene. The symbols aren't the issue. Take away all the symbols... hell take Hitler and the Nazi's out of the equation, and you still have a certain segment of society that would hate on others because they are different. Killing all the Nazis and German soldiers wouldn't have changed that one bit.

[Ulfstan]

And in fact the first symbol for the KKK was around and used for racist terrorism long before Hitler ever came on the scene. The symbols aren't the issue. Take away all the symbols... hell take Hitler and the Nazi's out of the equation, and you still have a certain segment of society that would hate on others because they are different. Killing all the Nazis and German soldiers wouldn't have changed that one bit.

They can be racist and stupid all they like, my problem is their use of MY religious and cultural symbols and the misrepresentation of real Germanic culture and belief. Embarass the original nazis enough and these tards would want nothing to do with them, and I wouldn't have to think twice about wearing my Mjollnir pendant in a predominantly black neighborhood.

[Chriz]

Every person on this planet is capable of violent behavior and the most brutal, depraved things you can imagine. It's hard-wired into us. Whether or not we do it is a different matter.

Whether or not we do it is the only thing that matters.

[Ulfstan]

Whether or not we do it is the only thing that matters.

How deep.

[Chriz]

How deep.

You can do better than that.

[Rainheart]

Rebalance WHAT equation exactly? Killing someone doesn't bring dead people back to life, all it does is make one more dead person. There's nothing to solve for.


There's solving the problem of if the criminal gets out. Lifetime in jail is plenty of time for a murderer to figure out how to get out, and continue whatever homicidal rampage they'd been on before getting thrown in the slammer.

Uhhh, there are less now anyway. Also what's wrong exactly with German soldiers? Should we execute all sodiers because they fought in wars? Not every German soldier was a bad dude, just mostly the upper echelon of leadership.

I believe we all figured both points out for ourselves. I never said the soldiers should all have been executed, I said I could imagine a world with less of them.

Also if you believe humans as a rule are a lost cause, why even bother punishing people then?

Because we're still around.

That's the same as saying the whole body is a waste and should be eliminated because of cancer in the pinky toe.

I sense a use of hyperbole. Go outside sometime and see what I mean. Maybe it's not obvious enough for you now, but give it a decade or two, and you'll get a better understanding of what I mean when I say: we are, on a majority big enough to matter, a destructive species short-sighted enough to keep milking our resources till we choke ourselves to extinction, or blow ourselves to the same result.

Our species as a whole can be represented as a multi-celled creature. Some of the cells aren't going to play ball, but that doesn't mean the organism as a whole should disappear.

The problem is that only a few cells in the body aren't gonna get with the program, but not enough to make a huge difference if taken care of. But the human population's ratio of people that "aren't going to play ball" to the amount of people that are is a tad more alarming.

[Chiron Jackal]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/ThrasherCub/Bashing/1208803422579.jpg

Human beings are violent, no exceptions. You are just as horrible as everyone else. :)
I, who teach severely handicapped children and who cares for a dog from an animal rescue program am as horrible as people who murder, rape, and commit acts of terrorism?

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing that.

Yeah, there would probably be far fewer people parading around with my religious symbols and claiming them to be symbols of "Aryan" supremacy and power.
You clearly have no idea what motivates white supremacists. The vast majority of white supremacists view themselves as working to protect the white race from loss of physical and political resources and from racial pollution. They would have viewed the wiping out of such "pure" Aryan stock as a threat of extermination against proud whites and would have reacted accordingly.

I doubt skinheads would take pride in the Swastika if those who wore it as a symbol of idiotic hatred and supremacy were as embarassed as I wish they had been.
And you think killing all the Nazis would have imbued the symbol of the swastika with embarrassment? Wouldn't it be just a hair more likely that they would view the Nazis as martyrs and therefore associate the swastika with their perceived heroes fighting and dying for what they view as a just cause?

Have you taken a single course in anything relating to human nature or thought?

Embarass the original nazis enough and these tards would want nothing to do with them,
Has it occurred to you that it may not be possible to embarrass them? These aren't always the most rational people and their dedication to white supremacy is usually quite fanatical. Attempts to disgrace them are just interpreted as attacks on their ideology.

and I wouldn't have to think twice about wearing my Mjollnir pendant in a predominantly black neighborhood.
First of all, Mjöllnir was not an especially common Nazi symbol.
Second, I think you might just be being a dramatic baby. I have one too. I not only wear it in black neighborhoods but bought it there.

Lifetime in jail is plenty of time for a murderer to figure out how to get out, and continue whatever homicidal rampage they'd been on before getting thrown in the slammer.
It's also plenty of time for people to reform and become productive members of society. If given the chance.

[Klark]

Rainheart, you're talking to a guy who is a newspaper reporter with beats that include cops, courts and government. I see more things about the bad side of humanity than Hollywood can dare to dream.

I still say the good outweigh the bad in humanity. Want proof? Here it is: We're still here.

As the president of an organization that runs Toys for Tots, I can tell you that there is more good in this world than bad. It's attitudes like yours that serve as the inner voice to the minds of serial killers.

Also lethal injection still humane, in my opinion. :p

[Ulfstan]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/ThrasherCub/Bashing/1208803422579.jpg

Lol.

I, who teach severely handicapped children and who cares for a dog from an animal rescue program am as horrible as people who murder, rape, and commit acts of terrorism?

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing that.

I need so amend what I said, yes.

Every human being has it hard-wired into them, somewhere in their reptile brain, to be a monster. The idea of 'sinking to someone's level' just sounds to me like being afraid to admit that sometimes doing something violent is necessary.

You clearly have no idea what motivates white supremacists.

I used to be one of them.

Have you taken a single course in anything relating to human nature or thought?

Just basic psychology and sociology. Psych was interesting, soc. is boiling down to "White people are evil, race is a false concept and everyone in the world should just get along because we are all the same person." Sorry, I don't see it.

Has it occurred to you that it may not be possible to embarrass them? These aren't always the most rational people and their dedication to white supremacy is usually quite fanatical. Attempts to disgrace them are just interpreted as attacks on their ideology.

Point taken, but I still don't think there would be as many of these overgrown wads of *bleep* if the Nazis had been obliterated in the way they should have been.

First of all, Mjöllnir was not an especially common Nazi symbol.

Being someone wo is kinda-sorta familiar with it, I know that. :P

Second, I think you might just be being a dramatic baby. I have one too. I not only wear it in black neighborhoods but bought it there.

My being dramatic gets me sneers, stares, bitchy comments and threats? Eat me. I wear it, but the thought always occurs to me that someone might go batsh*t, because that seems to be what they're thinking about.

[Chriz]

I need so amend what I said, yes.

Every human being has it hard-wired into them, somewhere in their reptile brain, to be a monster.

Thanks for the amendment. That is very different from what you had initially said.

[Ulfstan]

Thanks for the amendment. That is very different from what you had initially said.

It's what I was getting at, but they definitely don't sound the same. S'cuse me while I put my foot in my mouth.

[Rainheart]

It's also plenty of time for people to reform and become productive members of society. If given the chance.

They've got a lifetime of chances in those cells. Doesn't mean a lot of 'em will take them, and even when they do, is it really to reform, or just a way for them to try and get out?

I still say the good outweigh the bad in humanity. Want proof? Here it is: We're still here.

Then why are forests, regardless of what type they are, still being felled and destroying habitats? Why are animals being forced closer and closer to extinction by us? Why are the causes of ozone degradation and global warming still in full force (cow farting aside)? Why are societies and nations still warring with each other? I realize this is all stuff that's been decades, even centuries in the making, and that it'll take long term results to show any change. But even then, there's not enough effort to make those long term results happen.

As the president of an organization that runs Toys for Tots, I can tell you that there is more good in this world than bad. It's attitudes like yours that serve as the inner voice to the minds of serial killers.

It warms my heart that you're part of that effort, it really does. But it's not an attitude like mine that makes serial killers. It's the sense of realism I try to use to see those kinds of people, and see the world for what it really is, how most people refuse to see it, so that they can still go on enjoying life: one really big ticking bomb. Maybe it's not going off today or tomorrow, but with the way mankind's running things, it will eventually.

I'm not saying I don't enjoy life, though. I do. But I don't try to pull the wool over my own eyes.

[Chiron Jackal]

Then why are forests, regardless of what type they are, still being felled and destroying habitats? Why are animals being forced closer and closer to extinction by us? Why are the causes of ozone degradation and global warming still in full force (cow farting aside)? Why are societies and nations still warring with each other?
Those still exist mostly because of large corporations; a few people at the top making crappy decisions on behalf of the whole company. The general population isn't always in the best position to make them change, particularly when you realize how many are in the dark on how bad things are or what they could possibly do to fix it.

[GhostBat]

Although this is a great conversation, let's start bringing the thread back on topic.

Lethal injection consists of sequential administration of sodium thiopental for anesthesia, pancuronium bromide for paralysis (including paralysis of the respiratory system), and then potassium chloride to stop the heart (resulting in death). If the anesthesia is administered incorrectly, the prisoner will experience severe pain and suffocation. The problem is that a lot of the technicians involved in administering the anesthesia have no training, and the anesthesia levels aren't monitored (like they are for a patient during surgery to be sure the levels are sufficient).

[Klark]

Although this is a great conversation, let's start bringing the thread back on topic.

Lethal injection consists of sequential administration of sodium thiopental for anesthesia, pancuronium bromide for paralysis (including paralysis of the respiratory system), and then potassium chloride to stop the heart (resulting in death). If the anesthesia is administered incorrectly, the prisoner will experience severe pain and suffocation. The problem is that a lot of the technicians involved in administering the anesthesia have no training, and the anesthesia levels aren't monitored (like they are for a patient during surgery to be sure the levels are sufficient).

Some states with lethal injection have a computerized system that has a backup so that levels are always monitored and exact.

[GhostBat]

Some states with lethal injection have a computerized system that has a backup so that levels are always monitored and exact.

Yeah, and in cases where anesthesia is at proper levels, lethal injection is humane.

Are there any ways where prisoners facing the death sentence could be put to death that is more humane than lethal injection? I'm genuinely curious.

[Ulfstan]

Maybe bring back the gas chamber, but use CO instead of whatever else it was. That way they just drift off to sleep and die more peacefully than their victim(s).

[Sinanju]

Been awhile because I got lost in china on a train going the opposite direction I needed. Funny story but not really because it just involves me yelling at service attendants in broken chinese most of the time.

[/U]Imagining that gave my a little chuckle. Thanks. :)


How do you feel about when it happens to innocent men? An acceptable sacrifice to ensure the suffering of those who "deserve" it?

Every human being has it hard-wired into them, somewhere in their reptile brain, to be a monster.

Holy shit listen to this guy it's like he just finished playing some shitty JRPG where the emo villian tries to give pop psychology validation for destroying the world with his 9000 year old summon spell.

Some states with lethal injection have a computerized system that has a backup so that levels are always monitored and exact.

Yes, they're making an effort and I agree that if it MUST be done this is the way to do it. North Carolina has a pretty humane track record about this, whereas the states that execute the most prisoners tend not to.

So my basic points here are pretty much

1) costs more to execute unless we want to be like here in china in which case you can get the fuck out of my freedomland united states.

2) Brutalization effect: enough support for this that we need to seriously consider that the death penalty *increases* murder rates in many situations

3) ethical considerations - states like NC have taken this into account

4) US CJ system should probably stop convicting so many innocent people before we go all out gung ho with the death penalty!

5) did you know many prosecutors actively fight (successfully at times) to have DNA evidence thrown out of court because it "hurts their case"? This is terrifying.

[Klark]

Maybe bring back the gas chamber, but use CO instead of whatever else it was. That way they just drift off to sleep and die more peacefully than their victim(s).

Actually, with carbon monoxide poisoning, you get violently ill before you reach the threshold of passing out. Well, sometimes. If you're already asleep, it might not wake you up.

The Effects of Carbon Monoxide Poisoning (condensed)

"Symptoms of mild acute poisoning include headaches, vertigo, and flu-like effects; larger exposures can lead to significant toxicity of the central nervous system and heart, and even death."

[BlackRosePhantom]

I sense a use of hyperbole. Go outside sometime and see what I mean. Maybe it's not obvious enough for you now, but give it a decade or two, and you'll get a better understanding of what I mean when I say: we are, on a majority big enough to matter, a destructive species short-sighted enough to keep milking our resources till we choke ourselves to extinction, or blow ourselves to the same result.
Sorry, not going to happen on either of those. While, yes, I am a firm believer in global climate change, it won't end up killing us all. Humans are very much so able to adapt. Hell, the influenza pandemic of 1918 was one of the worst plauges in world history, killing people right and left, every day more and more bodies were being discovered, yet it still only killed a forth of the world's population. Even if the climate does a 180 on us, quite a few humans should still be around.

And as for the bombing thing, it didn't happen during the Cold War, where global tentions were much higher than they are now and the world pretty much was completely divided into two opposing groups (Communs and Capitals), so I highly doubt it would happen now.
They've got a lifetime of chances in those cells. Doesn't mean a lot of 'em will take them, and even when they do, is it really to reform, or just a way for them to try and get out?
It's called benefit of the doubt. And I know that a few of them are just acting reformed to get out, but it's called the court doesn't go easy on repeat offenders. Now, for Death Row convicts, the jurry has to be pretty sure the person did it and was cruel enough to deserve the death penalty, and if the person makes their appeal, it's usually because there wasn't enough evidence against them, and a chance of innocence still means that the person could in fact be innocent.


As for a means of death that's more humane that leathal enjection (and I'm not 100% on this): overdose of sleeping pills with a bit of alcohol.

[Ulfstan]

Actually, with carbon monoxide poisoning, you get violently ill before you reach the threshold of passing out. Well, sometimes. If you're already asleep, it might not wake you up.

The Effects of Carbon Monoxide Poisoning (condensed)

"Symptoms of mild acute poisoning include headaches, vertigo, and flu-like effects; larger exposures can lead to significant toxicity of the central nervous system and heart, and even death."

Huh. Seems I was wrong. That's never happened before. :D

Anyway, some gas that puts them to sleep so they'll never wake up.

[Ulfstan]

Holy shit listen to this guy it's like he just finished playing some shitty JRPG where the emo villian tries to give pop psychology validation for destroying the world with his 9000 year old summon spell.

Look up cannibalism in survival situations. Eating people is horrific and bad, right? If you were hungry enough, you would eat infants.

That's not to say that no one in this world is capable of resisting these tendencies, it's just a general rule that every person everywhere has the potential to be a monster.

[Sinanju]

Look up cannibalism in survival situations. Eating people is horrific and bad, right?

Sounds like you're stretching to make a connection between evolutionary psychology and morality and not succeeding.

[Vendetta]

That's not to say that no one in this world is capable of resisting these tendencies, it's just a general rule that every person everywhere has the potential to be a monster.
Whew thank god, you've seen China Town. Thread's over guys.

[Ulfstan]

Whew thank god, you've seen China Town. Thread's over guys.

I have not.

[Ves]

I think Sinanju nailed it, if you really have to kill someone, the lethal injections used for public execution in the United States seems to be the least inhumane way to go about it (bearing in mind some places have done lethal injections in other ways).
However I think the humanity or inhumanity of it comes in the circumstances rather than the method, you are still deliberately taking another person's life, (presumeably) against their will. Regardless of what they did in life, or whether you think they deserve it, does "humane" really come into it? What do they have to have done to make it OK to kill them - and I'm not talking legally here but morally.
What other circumstances should be taken into account? For example, I read this morning that the Washington sniper who was executed this morning suffered from Gulf War Syndrome and very probably was schizophrenic - is it morally acceptable to execute people with those kinds of problems however humane the method used to do so?

[Rainheart]

Sorry, not going to happen on either of those. While, yes, I am a firm believer in global climate change, it won't end up killing us all. Humans are very much so able to adapt. Hell, the influenza pandemic of 1918 was one of the worst plauges in world history, killing people right and left, every day more and more bodies were being discovered, yet it still only killed a forth of the world's population. Even if the climate does a 180 on us, quite a few humans should still be around.

And as for the bombing thing, it didn't happen during the Cold War, where global tentions were much higher than they are now and the world pretty much was completely divided into two opposing groups (Communs and Capitals), so I highly doubt it would happen now.

Don't count your chickens before they fry, Rose. Just because we haven't met with something that didn't wipe us out doesn't mean we won't.

It's called benefit of the doubt. And I know that a few of them are just acting reformed to get out, but it's called the court doesn't go easy on repeat offenders. Now, for Death Row convicts, the jurry has to be pretty sure the person did it and was cruel enough to deserve the death penalty, and if the person makes their appeal, it's usually because there wasn't enough evidence against them, and a chance of innocence still means that the person could in fact be innocent.

I'm not willing to say someone's reformed till there's daisies blooming in their wake. Maybe a lot of 'em really want to reform, but if I don't know them like the back of my hand, I'm not about to test the waters. People that're feigning reform to get out most likely know the pressure's on. The fact that they'd still go for it means they either don't care or have some scheme to keep it out of the authorities' sight. If they're on death row, the jury was likely pretty sure of the evidence, which had to have been unassailable for it to pass for a death sentence. Maybe there's a chance of innocence, but there's also a chance of just being scared like hell to be on death row, and find out the line's actually moving. Even if it's:

http://images.intomobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/mini_me.jpg

Just a little prick.

[Sinanju]

If they're on death row, the jury was likely pretty sure of the evidence, which had to have been unassailable for it to pass for a death sentence.


No but I'm sure its comforting for the general population to think so!

[Chiron Jackal]

I'm not willing to say someone's reformed till there's daisies blooming in their wake. Maybe a lot of 'em really want to reform, but if I don't know them like the back of my hand, I'm not about to test the waters. People that're feigning reform to get out most likely know the pressure's on.
Do you realize how paranoid that sounds?

And don't you think the large amount of supervision found in prison combined with people with a genuine knowledge of psychology and human behavior would be able to spot genuine reform pretty well?

[Ves]

And don't you think the large amount of supervision found in prison combined with people with a genuine knowledge of psychology and human behavior would be able to spot genuine reform pretty well?
Not really wishing to be arguing against you because I believe that people should be allowed the chance to reform...
But...

If this was that effective, then 0% of parole cases would go on to re-offend, whereas I'm fairly sure the figure is distressingly nowhere near that.

[Vendetta]

Not really wishing to be arguing against you because I believe that people should be allowed the chance to reform...
But...

If this was that effective, then 0% of parole cases would go on to re-offend, whereas I'm fairly sure the figure is distressingly nowhere near that.
The problem is with recidivism is that there's a whole lot MORE going on than just an unwillingness to reform in a good number of cases.

[Chiron Jackal]

If this was that effective, then 0% of parole cases would go on to re-offend, whereas I'm fairly sure the figure is distressingly nowhere near that.
Except that we tend to let people out when their time is up, not when they've proven to be upstanding citizens.

[Sinanju]

Except that we tend to let people out when their time is up, not when they've proven to be upstanding citizens.

More like we tend to let them out early because we don't have prison space due to us throwing people in for stupid-ass reasons. and when they do serve their full time we generally just give them 50 bucks and a bus ticket and say, "ok, be good out there man!"

[Zombie]

Anything these murderus monsters get is far more humane than the way they killed their victims. Example- is it humane to be stabbed to death? Is it humane to be hacked to pieces? Is it humane to be raped, then strangled or shot?

These people dont deserve compassion, only contempt.

-Z :mad::mad:

[Chriz]

Anything these murderus monsters get is far more humane than the way they killed their victims. Example- is it humane to be stabbed to death? Is it humane to be hacked to pieces? Is it humane to be raped, then strangled or shot?

These people dont deserve compassion, only contempt.

I can agree with the emotion, and I don't think it's a bad thing to feel contempt for such people, at least most of them.

But the legal system is the legal system precisely because it's not based on emotion. If all we needed were our feelings to tell us the right thing to do, we wouldn't need laws, or even much civilization.

[Piscean Mora]

The Bill of Rights and the Amendments that follow were all freedoms devised for us so that we could live as an independant nation. Until you infringe on someone else's rights. In my opinion, the appeals process only should be exercised if there is a REASONABLE doubt that the person convicted of such a crime did not commit it. When I say reasonable I mean that there is no actual physical evidence other than somebody's word. Look at the Salem Witch Trials.

The death penalty convicts should not be labeled as victims. Their families are well within their rights to dispute the matter but the victims families are also in pain. Therefore the process should not be dragged out so thoroughly.

If I ever received the death penalty I would skip appeals and request a firing squad. But then if I did the crime to deserve the penalty of death, I wouldn't deserve to choose how I died.

[Sinanju]

The death penalty convicts should not be labeled as victims.

Irrelevant opinion until the time comes when we stop throwing so many innocent men into prison. Absolute certainty is needed for a death penalty conviction.

[Chiron Jackal]

The death penalty convicts should not be labeled as victims.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/ThrasherCub/victim.png

As being executed qualifies as being "destructive or injurious" the dictionary disagrees with you.

Face it, with the possible exception of merciful euthanasia, anyone being killed is a victim. We just don't want to acknowledge it because then might feel bad.

[Piscean Mora]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/ThrasherCub/victim.png

As being executed qualifies as being "destructive or injurious" the dictionary disagrees with you.

Face it, with the possible exception of merciful euthanasia, anyone being killed is a victim. We just don't want to acknowledge it because then might feel bad.

The literal definition does not always apply.

The way I see it, a predator becoming the prey is just another part of the food chain, and it necessary to keep going on.

[Klark]

The literal definition does not always apply.

The way I see it, a predator becoming the prey is just another part of the food chain, and it necessary to keep going on.

Who is eating the death row people?

[Vendetta]

Who is eating the death row people?
Insert soylent green joke here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sp-VFBbjpE).

[Chiron Jackal]

The literal definition does not always apply.
Exactly what I said; it doesn't apply when it makes you feel bad.

Also, soylent green is delicious.

[Sinanju]

The literal definition does not always apply.


Sounds to me that it's more like you you don't want to use any language that makes you feel guilty about state-run killings, despite what the literal meaning is.

[Piscean Mora]

My big thing is why does it matter how painfully you die? I mean, when it's over, you're dead. Sure it would suck to go through the process but it's not like you're going to come out of it crippled or scarred. You're DEAD.

[Vendetta]

My big thing is why does it matter how painfully you die? I mean, when it's over, you're dead. Sure it would suck to go through the process but it's not like you're going to come out of it crippled or scarred. You're DEAD.
Because we're not monsters. It's called humane for a reason, look it up.

[Piscean Mora]

Humane, animalistic, we all die.

[Vendetta]

Humane, animalistic, we all die.
Uhh yeah, when I said look it up, I wasn't being facetious.

But then I guess we all know how you feel about dictionaries and their definitions.

[Piscean Mora]

Instead of worrying about the definitions of words we should be talking about why we even bother to be humane, since that's the issue that really matters. What is it to be humane in our society?

[Chiron Jackal]

My big thing is why does it matter how painfully you die? I mean, when it's over, you're dead. Sure it would suck to go through the process but it's not like you're going to come out of it crippled or scarred. You're DEAD.
True, it's not like it's very likely that these people are going to have to spend very long dealing with their condition.

However, if I were to start punching you in the face for a short amount of time I imagine you'd still prefer no punching to short-lived punching, no?

Instead of worrying about the definitions of words we should be talking about why we even bother to be humane, since that's the issue that really matters.
How are you to discuss something if you don't actually know what it is you're discussing?

What is it to be humane in our society?
Look it up: instant answer. Seriously, "humane" doesn't have a terribly complicated definition, and if people would stop compulsively splitting pseudo-philosophical hairs it'd be relatively easy to see what in our society does and does not qualify as humane.

So.... step one, look up "humane."

[Miss Teatime]

Consider this?

You have a Pedophile that is taking up your tax dollars, sitting away in prison, waiting for parole or to die. No matter what medical castration they provide to these pedophiles, they are mentally messed up individuals that will never be able to live a 'normal' life in society. They will never fully integrate back in-- So...do you want them eating up tax dollars, on the streets again with the chance of repeating their previous offences...or just end their suffering along with ours and give them the lethal injection?

Personally I believe once you've been sentences to death, you should die within that week. None of this waiting around for years. Thats just ridiculous.

[Klark]

Um, yeah. Pedophiles aren't given the death sentence unless they killed the child. Murder is the only crime, I believe, punishable by death in all states.

[Miss Teatime]

Um, yeah. Pedophiles aren't given the death sentence unless they killed the child. Murder is the only crime, I believe, punishable by death in all states.

Perhaps I'm a little too stern. I believe the death penalty should apply to more than just murder. Murder can be considered a blessing to the victim in some circumstances.

[Vendetta]

Personally I believe once you've been sentences to death, you should die within that week. None of this waiting around for years. Thats just ridiculous.
Really? So you believe that we NEVER convict anyone who is actually innocent?

THAT'S the reason we don't just execute people right after they are convicted. Because you know, someone might actually be innocent. Also, we have this little thing called "due process", perhaps you've heard of it?

[Tempest]

No matter what medical castration they provide to these pedophiles, they are mentally messed up individuals that will never be able to live a 'normal' life in society.

Castration, whether done chemically or by physically removing the testicles, is actually a very effective treatment for pedophilia because it drastically lowers the sex drive. If you can eliminate the risk of them being repeat offenders, why kill them? Plenty of people have had terrible life experiences or mental illnesses that have rendered them incapable of leading "normal lives". Should we kill them, too, just so we don't have to concern ourselves with them?

[Vaultdweller]

I would think the bigger concern is the debate over whether the death penalty should even TRY to be humane.

And yeah, I think lethal injection is plenty humane.

I don't mean to sound accusatory here, but weren't you the one that so strongly advocated the abolition of retributive justice altogether?

[MorganaFang]

If we can do it to animals shelters who are at times more sane then some people we should allow it for people.

Totally humane.

Though for rapists and murders I'm totally pro the most painful means of death possible. As I've said before I have no respect for people who do not respect another's right to live.

[Cahalith]

I agree with you about people who don't respect other peoples right to live, and in some cases right to die.

However, I know that death in many ways is a release not a punishment. I used to sit with people while they die. I used to work with hospice patients, who at the point I was their when all they wanted to have done was assisted suicide (which i am sure is illegal in my state).

I know that this is off subject slightly but sometimes there are cases of murder where the person was murdered out of sympathy.

I think it happens more commonly in older couples with failing health. =/


Dying with dignity is important to some people, and is just as important as the respect of life. At least that is something my mom has told me. Personally I don't know how i feel.

I think its important that people who don't respect life learn to respect it.

[Vendetta]

Though for rapists and murders I'm totally pro the most painful means of death possible. As I've said before I have no respect for people who do not respect another's right to live.
Well, we're already disrespecting them by taking away their right to live.

My dislike of inflicting pain and torture on a person isn't from my caring for the perpatrators. I just don't think we make ourselves any better by engaging in things like that. Looking into the abyss, etc...

[Szayel]

If they are on death row, then I think anything that involes death is "humane" enough for them. Lethal injection seems like the easy way out.