Response to pagans, wiccans, christians

[LV426]

Well damnit after I just spent time researching I am gonna bloody well post this.


I would like to point this out because MOST of the christian population fails to see this. They believe all "witchcraft" is the work of Lucifur. Ok- So Wiccans and Pagans have the triple goddess....christian s have the triple god: Maiden, mother, crown- Jesus, holy ghost, God.
Pagans believe in the powers of energy, but then again so do christians.
Did Adam and Eve have belly buttons?
I have a very...odd idea of how the virgin mary because pregnant. Its just...I dunno I thought of it one day. Incubus (male seducer) who comes to young girls in their dreams and has sex with them. This is...just kinda my idea...
Anyways...


As far back as the beginnings of religion, there was female oriented worship. Females were respected and revered as a sex because they were the ones that could bring forth life. Men were incapable of this but because they didn't understand why women could bring forth life from their bodies, they treated them differently which led to a kind of worship. The Goddesses appear in all forms and many different religions. The various forms of the goddesses represent the forms of women. The Maiden, a young virtuous creature that blossoms and beckons to the eye, purity presented for all to admire. The Mother, a warm woman who is gentle yet firm, loving and kind, but harsh and commanding when needed. The life giver, the total embodiment of all that a woman can be. The Crone (not crown), is the last phase of woman, the wise one, the teacher of the young, a woman who has passed beauty and strength and who slowly fades. She is no longer a life giver but the embodiment of death. She is the glimpse to the young that life is not eternal and death is but a shadow away.

The christian trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is not the same but was created in a more male driven world. Christianity and its worship of a dominant male figure has been in existence less than two thousand years. In contrast, the female trinity of the maiden, the mother, and the crone is stated to have been worshipped for between twenty and thirty thousand years, easily ten times the age of Christianity, and only relatively dominated by a patriarchial belief system. But the Father has no faces, He is God. The all supreme being that has no other sides but the one face of God. There is his Son, Jesus, who some consider to be a facet of God but in fact is a separate entity who was in fact human. The Holy Spirit has no true form, it is the surreal concept of God that enters a person's life and keeps their faith strong. God although considered to be androgynous is characteristically considered male. Christianity has always sought to be more acceptable to the masses and so it has taken many practices and incorporated and mutated those practices to be more acceptable to non christians in efforts to convert them.



Now then we have Lucifer (not Lucifur). Lucifer is the destroyer. he is considered all things evil and wrong, but what is evil? According to christian doctrine, God is the only one that is capable of creation. So therefore Lucifer does not create evil, nor was he created evil. In fact Lucifer is one of God's highest Arch Angels. There are many discrepencies as to what happened but essentially when Lucifer challanged God on a few positions God got pissy and decided that Lucifer could not stay in heaven. So he sent Lucifer away. I suppose it is what we refer to as hell, but Lucifer does not create evil. God creates evil. So what is evil?

The only reason that SOME christians call Witches, Pagans, and other non christian religions, is the work of Lucifer is because they are very narrow minded and do not read their bible. Yes according to christian doctrine those who do not worship the one and only God are sinners but they are not the work of Lucifer. The only reason that people use that excuse for persecution is because it is easier to claim someone is evil in order to be their downfall than it is to just say they are wrong. No one cares really if someone is wrong but if you bring in Satan, Lucifer, Devil worship, or evil into the equation, well as the Bible says, christians are sheep and where one goes the rest usually follow.


Now as for your Incubus theory. In all the recordings of incubi there has never been a case of pregnancy. There are ways for a woman to become pregnant without actually breaking the hymen. So yes one can be a virgin and be pregant. Besides an incubus is not out to impregnate, they are out to steal the energy that is emitted by a human soul. Well in theory, there is no real proof that incubi exist. Or God for that matter.

Now I am not sure what power you refer to in both christianity and paganism. Perhaps you would like to elucidate.

[Kirin Fenrir]

I don't mean this in any offensive manner, but the previous thread was probably closed for a reason...most likely to prevent a brewing flame-fest. Making a new post to reply to it renders that decision useless, and thus it begins anew.

But, there's not anything I can do about it, so here's to hoping the replies remain civil.

[Chaoil]

"Christianity and its worship of a dominant male figure has been in existence less than two thousand years."
I disagree, but I would like to know your sources.

If you're making contradictory statements towards Leah's note, I think it's possible you might have misunderstood. Then again, I could be wrong.

"As far back as the beginnings of religion, there was female oriented worship."

"In contrast, the female trinity of the maiden, the mother, and the crone is stated to have been worshipped for between twenty and thirty thousand years, easily ten times the age of Christianity, and only relatively dominated by a patriarchial belief system."

Considering how much we know about the romans, a people who wrote all sorts of crap down, in comparison to other peoples prior to that, I think such statemenst are probable, but improbable to determine...In otherwords, that's like creationism, you can't prove it. Don't most people say man worshipped things like the sun in the beginings of religions?

"Now as for your Incubus theory. In all the recordings of incubi there has never been a case of pregnancy. There are ways for a woman to become pregnant without actually breaking the hymen. So yes one can be a virgin and be pregant. Besides an incubus is not out to impregnate, they are out to steal the energy that is emitted by a human soul. Well in theory, there is no real proof that incubi exist. Or God for that matter."

Merlyn, Does his mom being impreggered by a spirit count?
Now, someone had told me "virgin" meant someone who was not legaly married, in that culture at the time.
Virgin also used to mean someone who was never kissed, so I'm told. Now it means someone who has not had sex...and considering all these girls having alternate versions of sex(anal, oral..ect) to keep their "virginity", it seems to becoming something to do with the hymen still being present.

Does it really matter who's right? I like Leah's theory. Your historical data is dependant on bias men who dug up anthropoligic stuffs and fabricated theories built upon hypothesis built upon more such "facts"...we can never completely know for sure what went on 20-30k years ago. That's like proving the existance of God.


I think Leah's main point may have been to state that what a lot of Christians teach is similiar to Paganistic teachings, in certian respects.Merely that there is still remenance of the whitch 'trials' and conflicts between certian religious groups("Christian" and "Pagan" ones).

Seems to me the trinity concept, as well as many others(Prayer beads ect.), has been deluded and blurred with the Pagan ideas the Church stole.
The relationship between Christ and God is the same relationship He expresses to have with His followers. I in Him, You in Me, Me in you...ectectect....R eference:John 14-15 (read it all, or don't take this into note)

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him"


I agree, there was a lot of respect for women...and goddess worship...Esp. by the celts, prior to "Christian" history...But to say so many many thousand years ago....I dare not claim anything as a fact.
As for the powers of energy, I think Leah was reffering to Spiritual dementions, I could be wrong.(PS: I am a bit of a femminist myself.)

[Kishi-Garou]

Religion is something you do every day.

Think, the word "religiously."

If anyone ever really tried to understand wicca, they're not worshipping goddesses and gods. They're opening up their own selves, and attempting to commune to natural things through their self archtype. Why else would a shaman have 'spirits come into him.'

Christianity is a belief, and a faith. You die, you go to hell, or you don't. Jesus saves. Thats it. I don't care. Jesus rocks, Buddha rocks.

There are really no differences. We're all the same. We all want to understand, and we try to understand in our own ways. Some people don't try. Some people try too hard.

Some just can't look underneath.

That is how it is. There are no differences, we are all related.

[MexicanJewLizard]

I enjoyed your post, Lycan.

Leah, seriously, I know this is your fourm and all but there are some people here don't exactly like "bashing" of their religion. Hold it down a little. :)

Just to point things out, the Christian God is one, trinity. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. 3 Supreme beings in one. Not 3 as some people would like to say. When the Christians pray (not Catholics) they pray to the Father. The Catholics aren't exactly Christian, just one of the many branches of them. They pray to the Saints, Mary, Jesus, and so on. Religions have their own faith, and I am not one to judge which is wrong or right. I believe as long as people don't go out and distroy anyone elses lives and just try and be a posotive person, then they're on the right track.

[GothicRogue]

question- why did we give Lucifer so many different names? Could we not stick with one? Devil, satan, the beast? I'd also like to point out that Lucifer is still suppose to be the most beautiful of the angels and not some dark firey beast. Movies, cartoons even some christians view him like this.

[MexicanJewLizard]

question- why did we give Lucifer so many different names? Could we not stick with one? Devil, satan, the beast? I'd also like to point out that Lucifer is still suppose to be the most beautiful of the angels and not some dark firey beast. Movies, cartoons even some christians view him like this.

Technically he's not called lucifer anymore. God gave him that name. When he was cast out from heaven he got the title surpent. So he gets a lot of other names, from other Christian groups. But to call him Lucifer is just....well... incorrect.

[Kirin Fenrir]

So we should call him "The artist formerly known as Lucifer."


Anyway, I've particular opinion on Satan; my religious views don't include him as even existing. But whether or not he does, one cannot simply shove aside the moral of the story here...the sin of vainity. One I think that all the people getting face lifts and Botox(sp?) injections would do well to remember.

There's a surprising amount of good morals in the Christian Bible. Just skip everything that Paul says about sex and women, and it's a fairly good moral base.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go listen to "Sympathy for the Devil." This post got that song stuck in my head. :)

[DarkWolf]

question- why did we give Lucifer so many different names? Could we not stick with one? Devil, satan, the beast? I'd also like to point out that Lucifer is still suppose to be the most beautiful of the angels and not some dark firey beast. Movies, cartoons even some christians view him like this.

Lucifer: "The bringer of light" also means "the morning star". A holy name.

Satan: Given to Lucifer when he challenged God, it means "The Accuser"

Devil: Another word for "Angel", or "fallen angel".

And he was never considered a serpent to whoever said that. That is norse mythology, not christianity, as it was Thor's duty to battle the Serpent. When Angel Lucifer was cast down to Hell, he was then a Satan Devil (the accuser fallen angel).

Hope that helps.

[Kay]

question- why did we give Lucifer so many different names? Could we not stick with one? Devil, satan, the beast? I'd also like to point out that Lucifer is still suppose to be the most beautiful of the angels and not some dark firey beast. Movies, cartoons even some christians view him like this.


Excuse me, since you closed the thread before i could even respond. b ut WE didnt give Lucifer these names, I'm sure they are written out somewhere. Why do we have nicknames?????? Can't we just stick with one?????? Apparently not.and in YOUR opinion, he's to be the most beautiful 'angel'....and to Christians he is evil, because he betrayed our God.....in the bible...Something you've claimed you read. I agree with Lindsay. Please stop trying to say that Christians changed YOUR religion and stuf, because I know that's what your fishing for....that Christians changed this and that.....so seriously as Lindsay said, please stop bashing religion...just because youre the person for the religion category, doesn't mean you can go off and bash other peoples beliefs...its offensive...and you sure as hell already offended me.Thanks "hun"

[MexicanJewLizard]

And he was never considered a serpent to whoever said that. That is norse mythology, not christianity, as it was Thor's duty to battle the Serpent. When Angel Lucifer was cast down to Hell, he was then a Satan Devil (the accuser fallen angel).

:rolleyes:

[Chaoil]

Excuse me, since you closed the thread before i could even respond. b ut WE didnt give Lucifer these names, I'm sure they are written out somewhere. Why do we have nicknames?????? Can't we just stick with one?????? Apparently not.and in YOUR opinion, he's to be the most beautiful 'angel'....and to Christians he is evil, because he betrayed our God.....in the bible...Something you've claimed you read. I agree with Lindsay. Please stop trying to say that Christians changed YOUR religion and stuf, because I know that's what your fishing for....that Christians changed this and that.....so seriously as Lindsay said, please stop bashing religion...just because youre the person for the religion category, doesn't mean you can go off and bash other peoples beliefs...its offensive...and you sure as hell already offended me.Thanks "hun"
Christmas, Easter, All Saints Day(with it's Hallowseve)...I could sit here giving you verses from the King James bible that distintly say "Don't worship God this way", "Don't call your priests Father". She has the right to say she thinks Romanism stole these ideas, and I have the right to think it is a sin. Neither one of us hate you, neither one of us are trying to hurt you, I don't think anyway.

[Chaoil]

Christmas, Easter, All Saints Day(with it's Hallowseve)...I could sit here giving you verses from the King James bible that distintly say "Don't worship God this way", "Don't call your priests Father". She has the right to say she thinks Romanism stole these ideas, and I have the right to think it is a sin. Neither one of us hate you, neither one of us are trying to hurt you, I don't think anyway.
Ohh yeah, and Lucy is never mentioned in any of my bibles. As far as I have been shown references, it that concept of Satan was interprated from metaphors in revolations. But there are probably more than that, so, if anyone knows where those ideas of lucy came from, let me know.

[LV426]

Christianity and catholicism didn't exactly steal the pagan holidays. In efforts to convert non christians over they sort of incoroporated the pagan observances and added their christian flavor to them. Yuletide became Jesus' birthday, Easter became the resurrection of christ, Halloween, well not every one refers to Halloween as All Saints Day so that is a secular tradition. I was raised Southern Baptist but Halloween was never religious unless some stupid woman in the church claimed it was the Devil's holiday. :rolleyes:

It wasn't that they were taking over the pagan traditions so much as trying christianity to seem more paganistic. The church wanted to convert more people so they adopted traditions and observances that parrallelled the pagans.

The holy ghost is also a fairly recent addition. I believe it came forth because in the dark ages people tended to believe in spirits, ghosts, demons, and other scary creatures. So the church added Casper the friendly ghost, er I mean the Holy Ghost, to the equation. And all the other creatures that went bump in the night, werewolves, vampires, wraiths, ect., were the minions of Satan and only God could save them if they went to church and prayed for forgiveness.



Ok now I am addressing the serpent issue. There was a serpent in the garden of eden. You know the one, he made all us females look bad because he convinced Eve to eat that stupid apple. Well ok it wasn't an apple it was a fruit from the tree of knowledge that Godf told them not to eat. But hey I don't like being stupid, so I would have eaten that fruit with or without the serpent. Now some believe that that serpent was Satan. Now it doesn't say anywhere that that serpent was Satan. It just says that the serpent was there to guard the tree of knowledge and tempted Eve. It was blatantly stolen. There have been trees that have been guarded by Serpents Dragons in quite a few religions. Usually trees of knowledge or wisdom, or other special trees that people really want to get to. Now there is a difference because whereas the other dragons and serpents tried to eat the people that wanted the fruit from the trees this one was giving it away. Somehow people began to see that Serpent as Satan and it just rather stuck. Most people don't like snakes anyway and it was easy to just let that poor snake take the heat and be considered evil.

Ah well as I have stated before, christianity is a young religion so I suppose that it wasn't as creative as the earlier religions.

[GothicRogue]

Do you believe Christianity is a man made religion?
And How much of the bible do you really believe. That one book alone is several thousands of years old so how many times has it been re- written? At one point God was viewed as an all fearing man- then he was changed into someone you love and wanted to be with. I find that odd.

[Chaoil]

The Holy Ghost a new creation? So you believe that a lot of the text in those Bibles is fairly new. So there wasn't a "Little Helper" Christ sent down in the original text?
"Steal" or not, by point is Romanism took and used paganistic concepts, like Prayer Beads. And aparently you just said so yourself when you said it took along a "Ghost".

I disagree, I think the Holy Spirit, was just that, and mentioned in the original text.

As for the Snake thingy:
Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

[Chaoil]

Do you believe Christianity is a man made religion?
And How much of the bible do you really believe. That one book alone is several thousands of years old so how many times has it been re- written? At one point God was viewed as an all fearing man- then he was changed into someone you love and wanted to be with. I find that odd.
If you are suggesting there are defects in this ancient text...I agree whole heartedly!!

I am most certian there are misunderstandings and defects in the translation of the Bible. Language changes, it would be silly to think it didn't.

Probably not as many as there would be in other, nonreligious texts that existed as long...
The corrupt men in power throughout christianity would most likely not be the ones translating it. It seems to me, the deticated monks, and few individuals driven to spending years translating a really old book would be die-hard Christians, and not likely to fuck it up for sheer jollies. Of course, over a few thousand years you have to expect mistranslations and other defective entities. I agree that the book is not pellucid, and people often interpret it differently.


God was supposed to have Hated the hate in the earth, the sick things we do. The world is a cruel sick place, so why would a God allow it to exist? Allowing it to exist is the same as bringing it about. Well, originally, we had the whole flood thing: Kill all the people who are real sickos, the ones who want nothing but to inflict suffering. But then, Oh wait, there are some people on earth that still know Love. Ok, so let them live. But ack, their offsping are just as bad as the ones before!
So why was God seen as someone to fear by Christians? Well, we're Human.Being human we are often Cruel to eachother, we make life miserable, we make life hell. What do you do when someone hurts someone you love? God loathes that aspect of us, and wants to rid us of it...So hmmm....why not kill all the sickos? and why not rid the world of any of the people who decide they don't give a shit and are full of wickedness?

God is Love, but if you know Love, you know It has wrath.But Killing everyone would not be the Answer. Thus you have Christ, The Way to rid the world of hate, selfishness, and anti-love, the way out.Also a way to illistrate the issue.

My scope on it^....Why? Why wasn't there already a Christ at the begining of it all then? There was. But without this world of suffering, what would be the point? And how could there be very much Love if there was never hate, pain, or the absence of Love to endure or to forgive? If there was always just Love there would be no such thing as Love. Same as if there was only a light, or if there was only Hot, or if there was only wet. They can't exist without dry, cold, and dark. So for Love to exits it must allow there to be hate.

This is Just was I personally believe. And if there is ever a time I do not want to offend anyone, it's among this post.

[LV426]

If God hated all the wrong things about earth and his creations then why did he create the capacity for those bad things to exist?

I mean if you go by what the Bible says, God created everything. If he created everything then he is responsible for all the hate and the sacrifices and the murder and the death. He is solely responsible for it so how can he possibly complain about how people live their lives. If there is only one god then why would HE have allowed other gods have existence in the minds of man? You see all these images and idols, they only cmae into existence because God created them. I mean if you go by the Bible humans don't create because they can't create, only god can create. I guess we are like workers in a factory assembling whatever god tells us to.


Oh yes and as for Revelations, you do realize that Revelations is a very young part of the Bible. It is the new testament and I believe was written to encourage people to live pious lives.

You see what many people cease to remember is that the Bible has been written by human hand. It has also been changed by Kings and Priests, and Popes, and others who carried some semblance of power. Rulers have always found it easier to reign if a god backs up their power.

All religions are man made, people need religion to make them feel that their lives are more important than they really are. It's sort of why people want to believe in Aliens and the Supernatural, because we can not possibly be alone, or can we?

[MexicanJewLizard]

The Holy Ghost a new creation? So you believe that a lot of the text in those Bibles is fairly new. So there wasn't a "Little Helper" Christ sent down in the original text?
"Steal" or not, by point is Romanism took and used paganistic concepts, like Prayer Beads. And aparently you just said so yourself when you said it took along a "Ghost".

I disagree, I think the Holy Spirit, was just that, and mentioned in the original text.

As for the Snake thingy:
Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Once again, I was right DarkWolf. Thanks for pointing that out for me Kyle.:)

[Chaoil]

"If God hated all the wrong things about earth and his creations then why did he create the capacity for those bad things to exist?"
I already answered this, you cannot define "Light" without the word "Dark". Same with "Good" and "Bad".

[DarkWolf]

Once again, I was right DarkWolf. Thanks for pointing that out for me Kyle.:)
Oh give me a break, so I missed one or two lines from a book featuring thousands.

Anyway I just think this whole God thing is more psychological than divine.

[GothicRogue]

awww Lindsay lighten up on the poor guy *grins*

[purinpuff]

It's "Revelation" :D

I was thinking about those male and female trinities. The female one seems to be a lot more physical while the male is a lot more intangible.

Ah, well. No matter what people worship, the women are nothing. I mean, just look at religions and their strong women... and then look at the people who follow them. Oh, we women and our emotions and lunacy. Oh, and we cause men's problems. You have to avoid us at all costs, of course.


Whatcha gonna do...

[blueeyes]

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". That would be much more relevant if it were a correct translation, of course.
Most humans dislike the concept of witchs and pagans because of xenophobia and fear of those with power, particularly power they don't understand. It's not because of a couple lines in religious texts or a glowing light in the sky (or on a bush).

[purinpuff]

That reminds me of a funny little exchange of words on the topic.

I was told that a "sorceress" was baisically someone who predicted the weather and stuff.

I told this to someone else who said, "So are you supposed to kill weathermen?"

When I related this to my teacher, he said something like, "That's brilliant."

[MrHappy]

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". That would be much more relevant if it were a correct translation, of course.
Most humans dislike the concept of witchs and pagans because of xenophobia and fear of those with power, particularly power they don't understand. It's not because of a couple lines in religious texts or a glowing light in the sky (or on a bush).

that all depends on who you talk to you cant really bunch a group up like that but ya

[FocusedWolf]

This is a very interesting thread...i love it when someone give opinion from a differant perspective...it like redefines your own.

Hmm what if the devil is like what neo is...:rolleyes:...li ke some sort of anomaly, maybe not even a actual being, but a flaw in perfection....weird. ...it is hard to understand the mind of something perfect...ok lets not...hmm...a (god)being/energy/or-name-for-the-occuracne-that-IF-IT-CAN-HAPPEN-it-will syndrome that resulted in the creation of matter...that in turn created life. Hmm religion is how we place ourselves in the universe, like explain our existance so that our minds can work.

"matter can be neiter created nor destroyed"

Hmm obviosly matter can be created lol...Man this is confussing me...

ok lets do it from the quantom thoery thing perspective...life was created because it existed...like its entire run from beginning to end occured already becase it was possible to in some dimension like anywhere from the 4th deminsion to infinity, or anywhere between...a valley in existence was carved...and it became filled with the-things-dreams-are-made-of(life)...therefore life(the value of life is the same as the value of dirt when where talking about the creation of all, maybe life is just a sideffect) exists because the rules/entire quantam thing of this universe deemed it possible...so who created the universe? Or is the universe subject to the same rules of creation, like their are other universes born because it was possible...man this is confussing lol...

What this would mean, being that the universe is a continioussly expanding and collapsing big-bang entity that will "destroy" all that exists inside (the universe is expanding, but scientests have determined that it is slowing down...it may slingshot close)[hmm i guess universes rub? like when they expand it compresses another? hmm that maybe] that we all have lived the exact same lives over and over and over because their is no deviation in the creation of life and how it ends...because remember before life existed their was a blueprint on how it would end and that program has been running for eternity.

Hmm we need neo to set us free lol.

[Ankesanmun]

There are many views on the you have saddled and I dare say you have done it beautifuly.

I wrote a paper on the origins of Witchcraft and it started of with the our perseptions of a given deity which happened to be a female that is why you had these little statues with big breast and big hips and little heads form the Paleolythic age to signify the importance of growth and fertility.

It was much later that the God aspect came into play and this on a level of Son Consort and Father.

There is a broad term regarding Christianity and this being that most of their religious holidays are taken directly form the Pagan traditions Chrismas is Yule and Ostara is Easter.

As for Lucifer I do not belief that he is a devil with horns, goats legs and a pitch fork (I mean common who is going to take anyone serious if they are trying to take over the world with a garden implement). And as a Pagan I do not believe in the Devil

Good and Evil needs to exist and the on can not exist without the other there has to be a balance at all time. These are actually forces far beyond our understanding and that is why we have called it something insignificant to understand this better. I do not belief that God created Evil I believe that He is both be cause nature is both so maybe God is both God and the Devil and we simply choose to see either the one side or the other.

There is common thread through all religions and that is that there is always (well in most cases anyway) a Trinity of some sort.