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LV426
10-28-2003, 05:14 PM
Social Darwinism refers to a set of theories which proponents argue govern the natural sociological relations of humanity; these theories are derived from Darwin's theory of evolution. Critics argue that these theories are used to legitimize social inequality. The term is credited to Herbert Spencer; in Progress: Its Law and Cause (1857) he argued:


"this law of organic progress is the law of all progress. Whether it be in the development of the Earth, in the development of Life upon its surface, the development of Society, of Government, ..., this same evolution of the simple into the complex, through a process of continuous differentiation, holds throughout."

Spencer's work talked openly about race and class, and even went so far as to rank various societies on a linear scale of progress. English culture, of course, was placed at the top; Irish were classed as "barbarians", and all the other races and cultures of the world similarly ranked. While such notions of unidirectional "progress" are not really supported by ideas of evolution, the 1859 publication of Darwin's Origin of Species gave his work more popular acclaim, as did the fact that his work served to justify many of the hard-to-justify political causes of the day, especially British imperialism. At the time, it was popular to speak of the "white man's burden" to take over more "primitive" cultures and help them progress to a more "evolved" (that is, British) state.

Spencer's work also served to revive the ideas of Hobbes and Malthus. Malthus's 1798 An Essay on the Principle of Population, for example, argued that as increasing population must outgrow its food supply, it was "natural", and inevitable, to allow the weakest to starve. Some historians have suggested that the Malthusian theory and similar concepts were used by the British to justify the continued export of agricultural produce from Ireland, even as the Irish were suffering from famine, in particular the Great Famine of 1845-1849.

Jonathan Swift savagely satirized this sort of "scientific" reasoning in his essay A Modest Proposal, pointing out that advocating cannibalism would have similar "beneficial" effects in controlling overpopulation.

These ideas have been discredited on many grounds: first, they bear little or no relation to the real science of evolution, other than by borrowing and misinterpreting a few of its ideas. "Survival of the fittest", for example, was used by Darwin and other biologists in a very narrow sense to explain why certain traits of animals evolved, while the popular misconception was that "fitness" was associated with "progress" or "advancement" or "superiority", and that the inferior were simply abandoned. In fact, those who are best adapted to pass on their genes often do so through some sort of cooperative arrangement or even an equivalent of self-sacrifice for the next generation.


In 1996, the debate was powerfully advanced by the publication of Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond, wherein the author made a compelling argument amply supported by data that all observed differences of technological and social development among populations resulted from environmental factors.

Darwin's work never committed the naturalistic fallacy of assuming that the existence of such natural processes implied that it was morally right to encourage them, nor did he ever attempt to extend his theories from biological systems to social systems, which is a leap far beyond what is supported by the science.

Because Social Darwinism came to be associated with racism, imperialism, eugenics, and pseudoscience, those criticisms are sometimes applied (and misapplied) to any other political or scientific theory that brings them to mind. Such criticisms are often leveled, for example, on evolutionary psychology, even though its scientific basis is stronger and it makes no political or moral claims. Similarly, capitalism, especially laissez-faire capitalism, is often equated with social darwinism because they adopt a "sink or swim" attitude toward economic activity. Capitalists argue that since there is plenty of work to be done, their economics have nothing to do with "letting the weak starve". Likewise, other individualist political movements are often attacked by calling their views "Social Darwinism" whether they actually espouse such theories or not.

Chaoil
10-28-2003, 09:11 PM
This has nothing to do with Social Darwinism, but can you answer this..?

Considering everything rounded out:
Say you have a harsh enviornment, harder to survive. Say it requires more physical strength and cunning.

Then you have an easy enviornment, easier to survive and expand, less threats to life.

Say you put organisms of the same quality and quantity in both enviornments. Look at them a couple thousand years later, which would be more physically stronger according to Darwinism? Would they be the same?

Wolf-Bone
10-29-2003, 06:55 AM
What I could never understand was their hatred for the Irish. I mean, they're white, aren't they? it doesn't make any sense to me. Then again I never exactly did any extensive research on that particular culture clash.

Chaoil
10-29-2003, 04:06 PM
What I could never understand was their hatred for the Irish. I mean, they're white, aren't they? it doesn't make any sense to me. Then again I never exactly did any extensive research on that particular culture clash.
Ack!! I hate this assumtion!
As if skin colour mattered. I am not anglo(anglo means engish, angle(land)/eng(land))!

See, now I'm Gaelic[ also French and Native American(perhaps some german], But people call me an anglo[which is stupid in istelf, because angle is the correct singular spelling]. Pisses me off.

Why do they hate the Irish? Simple. The Irish had a great system, the english considered it barbaric(I personally think it's better than their crappy feudal system). Just because they both have light coloured skin doesn't mean sh*t.

But, the pregidous, I think, goes back to Rome, and is an ancient war between the Celtic confederate feudal system and Romes corrupt "democracy".

Xzengrim
10-29-2003, 07:27 PM
This is true. Not all conflicts are based on skin color (obviously). Grim also feels slighted by the fact that "caucasian" means "without a race." I've got a race! It's German. But you're not allowed to be proud of that, so I guess I've got no race.

That, and I don't like dogs. I feel they're inferior to wolves, and I don't really want to deal with them. But I don't suppose there's anything I can do about that.

Xzengrim
10-29-2003, 07:33 PM
Actually, the thing about social Darwinism is that it's natural selection of peoples and races. Basically, it's a trumped up version of manifest destiny that says that the first race to trample the others and make it to the top gets the sovreign right to call them all barbarians and put them to work in the mines. I would support it, but only if whatever group I was in got to win.

And that's the rub of it. Many people throughout history have tried to 'use science' to prove which race it better than the others. And lo and behold... it's always whatever group THEY"RE in! Amazing. I would only believe it if it was something out of left field. Like if a British guy "used science" and discovered that the 'master race' was Eskimos, and we should all do what they say. That would be amazing. If it's whatever group the guy who conducted the study is in, you know he's just a dirty liar.

LV426
10-29-2003, 08:08 PM
Although Social Darwinism has been used incorrectly and as a tool of racism it's beginning purpose was not such. When applied to an ecological system it proves quite well that the strongest of a species survives.

Humans evolved along a different path, they made it easier for the deformed, dedficient, and infirm to survive. Especially now, society is burdened by those who do not take care of themselves, either by choice or design.

As I see it humanity is losing it's edge over the animals because we have enabled laziness and stupidity to proliferate. Sadly our species is becoming nothing more than a parasitical creature. In allowing those who are not as productive in society to survive by enabling their survival we have weekened the species.

Now this has nothing to do with race, color of skin, eye color, hair color, or sexual preference. It is a simple fact that there are members of society that make litte contribution to society nor to their own lives. They are either lazy or incompetant and yet we as a society continue to allow them to continue in such a fashion either leading to their breeding more lazy or infirm individuals, or they incite others to be just as lazy.


Somehow I think if we put a bit of Social Darwinism into play and did not assist these people in their situation then they would either die out or at least make an effort to better their situation and themselves. There are some people that with a helping hand, bounce back and make a life and those I commend, but the rest are a waste of space, time, money, and effort.

Stupid peope should be euthanized.


Anyway I am sure that someone is going to scream that I am a cruel and heartless person. I'm not really heartless, I just don't pay attention to it.

lordragoon
10-29-2003, 08:54 PM
The only part I can agree with is killing off the stupid people, but that would leave a huge mess to clean up, and no one intelligent wants to be stuck burying (or cremating, ect.) for the rest of their life.

Anyway, if you boil Social Darwinism's racial aspects down, you'd find that the best race is, in fact, a mix. After all, increased resistance to disease, inherited knowledge, and (since beneficial traits tend to require only one gene) abilities. So the guys with the white costumes can go somewhere else and burn crosses.

I can't favor the rest, though. Many 'bad' genes are directly related to good ones.

LV426
10-29-2003, 09:21 PM
The only part I can agree with is killing off the stupid people, but that would leave a huge mess to clean up, and no one intelligent wants to be stuck burying (or cremating, ect.) for the rest of their life.




Dead bodies make good fertilizer.

lordragoon
10-29-2003, 09:31 PM
But they take a while to decompose.
...
...
Killing all stupid people just isn't feasible. Logistics get too difficult. And they might protest ::snicker::
It's hard to define stupid, after all. It's not like you can just kill everyone with a 100 IQ or less, because then half the survivors would have a 100- score. (Most IQ tests base themselves off the 'average person', which means IQ 100 = top 50%) Anyway, what did you get on that thread, LycanthropicHowl?

Chaoil
10-29-2003, 11:07 PM
A new economic, political or....perhaps merely a new Legal theory, such as Anarcho-Capitalism. plus ridding ourselves of Welfair would help solve the problem. Stupid people can be helpful, it's the dead weights and ones that sit around living off of others while being miserable that may be the problem.
But frankly, I don't care.

LV426
10-30-2003, 09:11 AM
Honestly IQ tests are ridiculous. They don't tell how intelligent someone is. I mean there are people that have memorized entire libraries but couldn't find their way out of a paper bag with a flamethrower. I just think that some of the stupid people could be weeded out of society in a natural selection kind of way. We, the intelligent and far superior people quit supporting their dumb asses and let them make their own way. They either siink or swim.

I also don't agree with keeping people alive who should be dead. I mean what is the sense in spending money on a vegetable? Or putting babies on machines to keep them alive and then when they come off the machines they are a burden to everyone.

Ah well I am mean I guess.


Oh and Dragoon, what do you mean by "what did you get on this thread?"

silenceowl
10-30-2003, 09:53 AM
I dont remember where i heard this but, if we want to get rid of all the stuid people we should just take all the warning lables off of everything.

let it work its self out.
:p

Chaoil
10-30-2003, 12:19 PM
"We, the intelligent and far superior people quit supporting their dumb asses and let them make their own way. They either siink or swim. "
Like I said, no welfair, no taxes and absolute private property.

lordragoon
10-30-2003, 02:53 PM
I asked how you did on Ender's IQ test thread - I figured that way you wouldn't do the standard and set the bar at one slot below you.
I do agree when it comes to people who are vegetables. It just makes sense to me - I wouldn't like to live longer just see the same wall for another year or so. I like silenceowl's idea, too.

LV426
10-30-2003, 08:54 PM
Oh I didn't take the online IQ test, they aren't accurate at all and really don't apply to me anymore.

lordragoon
10-30-2003, 09:24 PM
Some of them don't really depend on age, like the ones that use only pattern recognition and logic. Those apply to all ages. As for the accuracy of IQ tests... well... it's just a good way to look at things from a distance.
Anyway, if you're talking more about stupidity on the level of self-extermination, then it doesn't matter.

GothicRogue
10-30-2003, 11:05 PM
What in the hell does anyones IQ have to do with the MAIN IDEA of this forum let alone thread?
Please..inlighten me....

Kishi-Garou
10-31-2003, 08:00 AM
*cough* Its ENlighten.

Maybe we should devise a plan, where monthly, people are chosen to join in on a pit of gladitorial combat.. with rabid animals. I don't mean rabid little squirrels, I mean rabid alligators, tigers, lions, seamonkeys..

This will really show who's the best.

GothicRogue
10-31-2003, 01:50 PM
Can I be the seamonkey?

Xzengrim
11-03-2003, 02:57 PM
It's true. Darwin said that "It is not the strongest who survive, but those who are the most responsive to change."

From a purely biological standpoint, though, the strongest is whoever lasts the longest. Plain and simple. It is possible to argue that in the purely animalistic sense, then, women are stronger than men (because they live longer). And if you wanted to take it further, you could say that bacteria are stronger than all of us; since there is not really one original bacterium that live and dies, it just divides into two again and again, producing race after race of clones.

And then from another standpoint, if we're talking about being responsive to change... who is more responsive to change than a werewolf? That's a whole lot of Change!