Pair Use The Force For Jedi Religion

[Ves]

Two self-styled Jedi Knights are stepping up an intergalactic campaign for formal recognition. Umada and Yunyun, also known as John Wilkinson and Charlotte Law, want the UN to acknowledge "The Force" is worthy of being called a religion. The couple claim to be part of the UK's fourth largest religious group, after 400,000 people recorded their faith as "Jedi" in the 2001 Census.

They say that as a religion, they deserve tolerance and respect. November the 16th is the annual International Day for Tolerance.

And as part of a global battle worthy of Luke Skywalker's efforts against the Empire, the band of self-styled Jedis want the UN to re-name the day as Interstellar Day of Tolerance.

More people claim their religion to be Jedi in England and Wales than those who follow Sikhism, Judaism and Buddhism. And the cause has global support.

There are also 70,000 Jedi knights in Australia, 53,000 in New Zealand, and 20,000 in Canada.

This is Umada and Yunyun's letter to the UN Association:

To whom it may concern,

For the last ten years the United Nations has marked today as the International Day of Tolerance.

While we support this important work, we feel the UN needs to move with the times.

In the 2001 UK census, 390,000 people identified themselves as Jedi Knights, making us the fourth largest religion in the country.

We have a proud heritage dating back 195,000 years to our first Jedi, the blue haired, blue eyed Kaja Sinis, who was born on Coruscant.

Like the United Nations, the Jedi Knights are peacekeepers, and we feel we have the basic right to express our religion through wearing our robes, and to be recognised by the national and international community.

We therefore call upon you to change the 16th November to the United Nations Interstellar Day of Tolerance, to reflect the religious make-up of our twenty-first century civilization.

Tolerance is about respecting difference where ever it lies, including other galaxies. Please don't exclude us from your important work.

May the Force be with you.

From here (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/16112006/140/pair-use-force-jedi-religion.html)

I can see what they're getting at, but I fear they're being a bit too clever for their own good.

[DL Lycan]

Theres one major difference between this and Christianity; Star Wars can be proved to be the work of one mans imagination. I say let them believe what they want, But I find no logic in taking "Jedi Knight" as a religion.

[ulfheadnar]

Theres one major difference between this and Christianity; Star Wars can be proved to be the work of one mans imagination. I say let them believe what they want, But I find no logic in taking "Jedi Knight" as a religion.


I don't see a problem with it. Look at scientology and how many people follow that. It was MADE UP by L. Ron Hubbard. It's one of the more popular "religions" in Hollywood and other areas of the world.

[Morgrim]

Yes, but you cannot call something 'international' unless other nation is also involved. So how can you call something interstellar before settling around another star? (And if they can then they need to talk to some scientists, pronto!) :D

[DarkHunter]

Maybe Lucas was inspired by the "Will of the Force?" He may REALLY have been recording events of another galaxy.

Its not so ridiculous when you consider how many people actually believe in the Bible. I mean, there's no proof thats anything other than people's imaginations were involved in the writing of THAT (and if you start pointing out the followers of the Bible I'll start quoting the current numbers of the Jedi not to mention the Star Wars fans out there).

Though listening to some Jedi talk, their religion is pretty good, based on a movie or not.

Though the "interstellar" thing is a bit much.

[DL Lycan]

In my opinion, It's about on par with making Klingon an official language, And asking for equal rights for races who are not part of the federation.

[Okamiotoko]

It would be interesting to dialogue with a so called "Jedi Knight" to see their doctrines, theology, and philosophy, IF they have any.

PS: I liked how this topic jumped immediately to Christianity.

[DarkHunter]

As far as theology is concerned: http://www.thejediismway.or g/

If enough people regularly used Clingon, then it deserves to be a language. I don't believe people do so its justified in not being an official language. Then again, enough people list Jedi as their religion and I've talked to some people who were genuine about it.

[LV426]

Ahem!

It's KLINGON, not Clingon.

[Okamiotoko]

Very interesting. I do I have one question though: why do they belive all this stuff? I can't see a basis for it, besides Geroge Lucas. I mean, Christians assume Jesus was God, and follow his teaching. Buddhist belive buddha was, well, buddha, and follow his teaching. Jews belive God has given them commandments. Muslims have Mohammad and all the other prophets. But, I fail to see where these tenants came from. I assume jedi's belive that the force is "God", but where does this other stuff come from?

[LV426]

It's no different from Scientology. Scientology was made up by a science fiction writer. The majority of people are sheep and need a guide to live their lives so they turn to religion, Any religion, to give their lives meaning.

[J.L.R.]

Maybe Lucas was inspired by the "Will of the Force?" He may REALLY have been recording events of another galaxy.

Its not so ridiculous when you consider how many people actually believe in the Bible. I mean, there's no proof thats anything other than people's imaginations were involved in the writing of THAT (and if you start pointing out the followers of the Bible I'll start quoting the current numbers of the Jedi not to mention the Star Wars fans out there).

Though listening to some Jedi talk, their religion is pretty good, based on a movie or not.

Though the "interstellar" thing is a bit much.

Actually, 90% of the books of the Bible can be traced to real people, during real events. The last 10% have assumed writers, such as many theologens credit Paul as the penman for Hebrews, while the work itself while Pauline in style, doesn't explicitly point to Paul...

It is beyond ignorant to even compare Jedi to Christianity. The Bible wasn't just made up. The events and the people the Bible speaks of really existed, and can be archeologically traced. That isn't the question... Most people don't argue that. Now whether the Bible was inspired by God or not, is where the line is drawn...

The Force isn't based on real people or real events. It is complete fiction. George Lucus was inspired by various religions of the world such as Buddhism as well as Christianity in creating his own beliefs for his world, but it is clearly fictional. All this is are fans who love Star Wars so much they want to make it real, even though no matter what the hell they do, it will not be real...

[GhostBat]

It is beyond ignorant to even compare Jedi to Christianity. The Bible wasn't just made up. The events and the people the Bible speaks of really existed, and can be archeologically traced.

The best lies are wrapped in truth.

But hey, who wouldn't want to walk around in Jedi robes 24/7? It's like the epitome of geekyness! :p

[chriz]

Actually, 90% of the books of the Bible can be traced to real people, during real events.

You need to provide some kind of citation for this. I don't think it's anywhere near 90%.

[IIFerinusII]

I hate when people are so stupid. I don't care what religion they make up or are part of, but to be asking to make it a recognized religion just shows how insecure they are about themselves. These people just want to get famous (because they apparently can't live without others apporoving of what they are doing and following them). Our governments have enough to deal with, stop asking for stupid things that distract them.


"We have a proud heritage dating back 195,000 years to our first Jedi, the blue haired, blue eyed Kaja Sinis, who was born on Coruscant."
Wow, their basis of the first Jedi doesn't even have a logical basis. A blue haired, blue eyed Coruscantian (if that is what you call an inabitant of that...planet) I wonder if they consider the Blue Man Group to be prophets?
If I ever meet a "Jedi Knight", I hope to god that some kid with one of those $10 lightsabers from walmart walks by so that I can grab it from him and duel the jedi.

[Morgrim]

I doubt that most of the people on the cenus list actually practise "Jediness" (or whatever the plural is). I know that before the Australian census a few months ago there were all sorts of joke emails going around, and the "put your religion as Knights of the Jedi Order" one was very popular. I'd say most people put it down as a joke.

It would be interesting to compare how many put down the "Ancient Order of the Dark Lords of the Sith" instead, for similar reasons. :D

[IIFerinusII]

I doubt that most of the people on the cenus list actually practise "Jediness" (or whatever the plural is). I know that before the Australian census a few months ago there were all sorts of joke emails going around, and the "put your religion as Knights of the Jedi Order" one was very popular. I'd say most people put it down as a joke.

It would be interesting to compare how many put down the "Ancient Order of the Dark Lords of the Sith" instead, for similar reasons. :D

Oh man, I would have loved to be the people who read those things. The strange things that people must put down as a joke lol. :D

[Morgrim]

Well, they do release census papers, minus the first page (which give personal information). ;)

However, I don't think they do so for something like 100 years? Maybe 50, I can't remember.

[IIFerinusII]

Well, they do release census papers, minus the first page (which give personal information). ;)

However, I don't think they do so for something like 100 years? Maybe 50, I can't remember.

My time is too precious to take the time to go look at them no matter what year they come out in.

[DarkHunter]

Actually, 90% of the books of the Bible can be traced to real people, during real events. The last 10% have assumed writers, such as many theologens credit Paul as the penman for Hebrews, while the work itself while Pauline in style, doesn't explicitly point to Paul...

It is beyond ignorant to even compare Jedi to Christianity. The Bible wasn't just made up. The events and the people the Bible speaks of really existed, and can be archeologically traced. That isn't the question... Most people don't argue that. Now whether the Bible was inspired by God or not, is where the line is drawn...

The Force isn't based on real people or real events. It is complete fiction. George Lucus was inspired by various religions of the world such as Buddhism as well as Christianity in creating his own beliefs for his world, but it is clearly fictional. All this is are fans who love Star Wars so much they want to make it real, even though no matter what the hell they do, it will not be real...


The Force has no more evidence or reality to it then God. They are equal as far as things go.

The Bible is admittedly historical at some points. But there is a vast majority of it that has no historical backing other than "Well THIS place EXISTED." Furthermore some important figures of the Bible (cough cough Jesus cough cough) are in debate over whether they existed or not.

Its not a matter of making Star Wars real or not. Its more of applying the philosophy held by certain Star Wars characters to real life. Recognizing truth within a story and applying it to real life happens all the time. Its how the word "parable" came to be used. Ask your Jesus about that one.

[Okamiotoko]

The Force has no more evidence or reality to it then God. They are equal as far as things go.

Subjective. I think there is more evidence for God than the force.



Its not a matter of making Star Wars real or not. Its more of applying the philosophy held by certain Star Wars characters to real life. Recognizing truth within a story and applying it to real life happens all the time. Its how the word "parable" came to be used. Ask your Jesus about that one.

So, its not a religion then. Its a philosophy?

[DarkHunter]

Subjective. I think there is more evidence for God than the force.





So, its not a religion then. Its a philosophy?

And I believe they are equal. I'm sure we could debate this. I'm tempted to start a whole new thread for the evidence of God.

Religion, philosophy. Who cares what you call it. Philosophy is somewhat part of a religion so if they want to call it "Religion" then its their deal. I'm sure it qualifies according to some definition (the one i use being from religioustolerance.o rg)

[Okamiotoko]

And I believe they are equal. I'm sure we could debate this. I'm tempted to start a whole new thread for the evidence of God.

Religion, philosophy. Who cares what you call it. Philosophy is somewhat part of a religion so if they want to call it "Religion" then its their deal. I'm sure it qualifies according to some definition (the one i use being from religioustolerance.o rg)

A philosophy typically is complete rationalism, with no faith assumptions. A religion can use critical rationalism, but can never be completely rationalized. There will always be a "leap of faith" so to speak. Also, philosophies aren't granted religious status.

All religion has philosophy, not all philosophy has religion.

[J.L.R.]

DH... what have you been smoking? :D

Who is debating if Jesus was really alive or not? As far as I know, NOBODY, except the most retarded of people, denies that Christ was a real man... The only debatable thing is if, His testemony of Himself, being the Son of God, was true or not. Jesus was HISTORICALLY crucified, and once again that can be traced.

Pontius Pilote was a real man... Matthew, Mark, Luke, John... were real men... In fact the New Testement, in comparison to other works of the ancient world, is the best preserved manuscript of that era... or should I say manuscripts... (John Edwards :"Is Christ the Only Savior.")

The fact is the places and peoples the Bible speaks of are there... Once again, to toss the Bible aside as man made fiction is simply... well... dumb.. You may not agree with their point of view, but even the most skeptical of archeologists aren't going to have the gal to remove the historical accuracy of Biblical texts... Once again, if you don't believe that it is God inspired, that is left to your beliefs, but to argue that the book is clear fiction is as I said dumb...

However, when it comes to Star Wars, the entire saga was never written about real people or places or cultures, nor was it written in a format to be a biography or religious document. It is clearly ficticious... sorry guys... put your light sabers away... George Lucus wrote a wonderful Space Opera, but that is all it was.

You may dislike Christianity or the Bible DH, but don't let that cloud your mind from truth, because you may think you are sounding smart, but honestly its just coming out rather lame...

[DarkHunter]

And the Bible and and the account of Jesus's life is still filled with inconsistencies (historical ones) as well as fantastic events. Basing your life on a book somewhat historical, but overall full of things that can't happen (whens the last time YOU saw a man come back to life after being dead for three days) is no different than basing your life on the work of George Lucas.

Sure George Lucas isn't historical. Sure its fictional. But does that make the way of life set out by the Jedi stupid? Not neccessarily.

[DL Lycan]

The bible wasn't written to be a blockbuster at your local theatre house back in the day, It was written for the purpose of basing a religion upon it. "The force" Was made up to be part of an, albeit very succesful and popular, movie. It was in no way intended to be taken as real, and was not designed for use in a mainstream religion.

Why base a religion on events that happened a long time ago, In a galaxy far far away? So until I see a little green short dude, Moving a space ship with the sheer power of his midgetness, Then the essence of the force, In being a something that surronds all living creatures, shall remain a complete work of fiction in my view.

It was written AS fiction, and has never been denied to be so, Unless by these Star Wars fanatics with nothing better to do with their lives than delude themselves with movies.

[DarkWolf]

A hobby's a hobby. If they aren't harming anyone leave the little deluded people to their games. It's almost cute.

[J.L.R.]

And the Bible and and the account of Jesus's life is still filled with inconsistencies (historical ones) as well as fantastic events. Basing your life on a book somewhat historical, but overall full of things that can't happen (whens the last time YOU saw a man come back to life after being dead for three days) is no different than basing your life on the work of George Lucas.

Sure George Lucas isn't historical. Sure its fictional. But does that make the way of life set out by the Jedi stupid? Not neccessarily.

The four Gospels, that depict Jesus' life, death, and ressurrection, were written between 25 to 50 years after the events recorded. While Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are credited as the actual authors, since the style of each book reflects their education and standing amongst other Jews, it is almost certain that they themselves didn't write the books, but had associates. Psycologically speaking the four Gospel's read as books written from remembered events, as to purposefully created. Considering the time period, and Jesus Christ's promise of return, it is a possibility that His followers literally believed they were in the supposed "last days" and that His actual return was imminant. This is of course backed up by St. John's last statement at the end of Revelations. Revelation 22: 20 "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen, Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
The disciples, even with their teachings, believed that Jesus was going to come back very soon. Even in their lifetime, but as they began to age, they knew that if they didn't record the life of Christ much of the important details would either be lost or misunderstood.

You mention inconsistancies... I guess you are referring to the death of Judas Iscariott... Once again, you will find minor inconsistencies in the Gospels, but ONCE again, under the careful eye, it paints an important message... Embarrassing material. Meaning... These are the works of folks who want to pull the wool over people's eyes, because if they were con artists trying to perpetuate a new religion, they would want everything to be the same... but the Gospel's aren't... Their style is completely different from one to the other, while their message is the same. In fact if you think about it, each carries an important theme that better lays the foundation of Who Christ was, and His mission...
Historically speaking anyone who tried to devise an occult, did everything they could to remove any doubts about what they were saying... Mohammed, for example, while writting the Fatwe's, made it a law up front, that if anyone disagreed or stated they were false, would be killed, and he killed many people for doing so. This is historical. He stated that His teachings were of Allah, and that anyone who disagreed or found fault was an infidel and quickly put to death...

No such command is in the Gospels nor recorded in the entire New Testement.

Adolf Hitler was the same way. He murdered anyone who disagreed with him. His word was surpreme and not to be debated.

Once again, none of the writers of the Gospels make such a challenge. Why? They weren't trying to create a religion, but merely remembering what each of them experienced. Now whether you believe their report is up to you.

Even that isn't enough... The claims of the Gospels are backed by historical events, such as the Taxation mentioned at the supposed birth of Christ. The Harods were a reigning party during this time. Historian and by the way non-Christian, Flavius Josephus recorded the events surrounding Christ's crucifixion that a "man of miracles" was crucified...

You can find this information for yourself. You might have to look further than the internet, but it is all there...

[J.L.R.]

Well now... the internet can be useful... who knew...

http://home.houston.rr.com/apologia/sec5p4.htm

[chriz]

Who is debating if Jesus was really alive or not? As far as I know, NOBODY, except the most retarded of people, denies that Christ was a real man... The only debatable thing is if, His testemony of Himself, being the Son of God, was true or not. Jesus was HISTORICALLY crucified, and once again that can be traced.

Again, please provide some citation or evidence for this. Where is this evidence that proves the Biblical Jesus existed (outside the Bible, of course)?

[J.L.R.]

Again, please provide some citation or evidence for this. Where is this evidence that proves the Biblical Jesus existed (outside the Bible, of course)?

Did you see my link?

Then again, Chriz... where is the proof that he didn't exist?

[LV426]

I have a pink elephant in my garage. You can't see him because he gets scared if I open the door, but he is there. If you don't believe me, prove I don't have a pink elephant in my garage without opening the door.

[GhostBat]

Then again, Chriz... where is the proof that he didn't exist?

I just have to say something, because this is really bugging me. That statement is just one big fallacy.

[J.L.R.]

Okay I pulled this from a Times mag...

THE EVIDENCE
# The Gospels say that Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem, grew up in Nazareth, preached and performed miracles in Galilee and died on the Cross in Jerusalem

# In his Antiquities of the Jews at the end of the 1st century, Josephus, the Jewish historian, refers to Jesus as “a wise man, a doer of wonderful works” who “drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles”

# Muslims believe Jesus was a great prophet. Many Jewish theologians regard Jesus as an itinerant rabbi who popularised many of the beliefs of liberal Jews. Neither Muslims nor Jews believe he was the Messiah and Son of God

# Tacitus, the Roman historian who lived from 55 to 120, mentions “Christus” in his Annals. In about 120 Suetonius, author of The Lives of the Caesars, says: “Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, Emperor Claudius expelled them from Rome.”

[chriz]

Okay I pulled this from a Times mag...

THE EVIDENCE
# The Gospels say that Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem, grew up in Nazareth, preached and performed miracles in Galilee and died on the Cross in Jerusalem

You can't use the gospels as proof of the validity of the gospels.

# In his Antiquities of the Jews at the end of the 1st century, Josephus, the Jewish historian, refers to Jesus as “a wise man, a doer of wonderful works” who “drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles”

Josephus has been widely discredited. He makes a whole bunch of references to Jesus as his Lord, despite being a reverent Jew. This suggests his writings were rewritten after his death by individuals with a Christian agenda.

# Muslims believe Jesus was a great prophet. Many Jewish theologians regard Jesus as an itinerant rabbi who popularised many of the beliefs of liberal Jews. Neither Muslims nor Jews believe he was the Messiah and Son of God

This is similar to your first piece of evidence. You can't use the fact that people have faith in something as proof that that something existed. The whole point of faith is to believe in spite of evidence to the contrary.

# Tacitus, the Roman historian who lived from 55 to 120, mentions “Christus” in his Annals. In about 120 Suetonius, author of The Lives of the Caesars, says: “Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, Emperor Claudius expelled them from Rome.”

The Christians as a sect were well-established in Rome by AD55. Emperor Nero (who died in AD68) was probably their worst nemesis, and is undoubtedly the Beast mentioned in the Book of Revelation (which is a recounting of the burning of Rome, not a prediction of the end of the world).

[DarkHunter]

Inconsistencies? I've found a list of about a hundred or online. I'm sure we could poke holes in some of them, but all of them? And not simply minor things either.

Don't records exist of crucifixtions around that time? Can you find Jesus's name in them? Or better yet just plain Roman historians who could tell us about the man who died and was rumored to have risen from the dead? What about other Jewish historians? And not people in the name of Christ, but actual references to Jesus the man as he lived.

And if I recall, archeaologically didn't they prove that Nazareth didn't actually exist until after Jesus died? Though if I'm wrong about this little tidbit, don't crucify me. I dan't remember where I heard this.

BUT. To the topic at hand.

If people want to believe what the Jedi believe, then let them. Its their right (in some countries anyway). If people inject a little fantasy, talking about blue haired Jedi and little green men, then let them have at it. Most of them openly acknowledge the events as fictional, using the Jedi from the films as a basis for their way of life. They talk as if they had existed in order to strengthen their faith in what they believe.

Its not anybody's right to try and tell them they can't have their religion. It is valid in the sense that it is not a cult (meaning a religion that requires you to be part of a group to be a member, exhtorts you, among other things). Sure maybe this "Interstellar" day is nonsense, but thats no reason to try and tear up their way of life.

[LV426]

Circular logic can not be used to prove anything.

If you believe this then I invite you to [URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDp7pkEcJVQK iss Hank's Ass[/URL]

[DL Lycan]

As I said before, Let them have their belief, I just don't see any sense or logic in it, So theres not much basis for getting it authorised and recognised.

[draccancain]

ok personally i think if they wanna belive a man made religion so be it after all christianity is a man made religion (and before i get posts of no its not blah blah blah the bibles real read on) 1 most things that happened in the bible are quite correct jesus lived etc etc but a lot of the plots etc are twisted jesus`s statuts as the son of god was given to him by a pagan emperor, Rome was in turmoil this new fond religion called christianity was threating all walks of life and they were growing in numbers so the pagan Emperor Constantine with the council of nicea put the bible together from various authors of which most of it was true but they CHOSE what to put in they CHOSE what day christmas etc was on they CHOSE the 10 commandments and they CHOSE jesus`s holyness this was done to save the empire (fat lot of good that did thopugh really the christians werent happy and well we know history) the bible (and yes i have read it quite a number of occasions!) wants us to believe mary magdalene was a whore (yes yes i know all very da vinci code but its factual (about the only thing in that book lol) when in fact she was jesus` wife (no i dont know if they had kids) the long and the short of it is christianity is man made to suit some ones needs mostly true but some plot twists in there, as perhaps are all the religions i personally am a druid (i was roman catholic thats how i know this stuff) and as far as i am aware there is no written record of who started druidism/paganism/wican (as the muslims and christians belived us heratics and burned us, mutilated us and destroyed our works) just on that point totally irellavant but i dont see many pagans or jews going on religious murder sprees through out history only 3 religions to my knowledge have done that christian, muslim and sikhism odd that

so jedi `ism is yet another man made religion with thousands of followers so i say cant do any worse with other religions and anyway we will only find out the true religion if there is one when we die so who cares tell us when you die lol scuse the typing im 23 hours through a 36 hour on call shift so just a bit tired will redo when i finish work and have slept for a couple of days

[Ves]

Yep they were definitely too clever for their own good methinks.

I suspect what they were getting at was not so much that there's a bunch of people that think they're Jedi (who would surely have their illusions shattered by their inability to control minds, perform acts of telekinesis, and build lightsabers), but that people should be free to practice whatever religion they desire, and to adorn themselves in the trappings of that religion without fear of mistrust or persecution - regardless of what that religion may be.
In short I think it's based off the current fad in making people not wear thinks like veils or crosses or whatever, so that no-one gets offended.

Either that or they're nutters.