I'm sorry for all the posts but....

[Mathias]

As none of you know right now i am a real shifter, one of the oldest, at least in spirit. I am descendent from an ancient french bloodline of lycanthropic men. Many of them appearing in the lore you speak of, the oldest of my ancestors, Ademil, a french cobbler was bitten by a wolf while walking in the forests, he soon became what many in my line are. His grandson came to america, and started my direct line. I am not sure how but as a man of science, the genetic changes made to my ancestry started from a viral infection that came about as a result of the wolf bite. There was no magic involved yet i am what i am because the virus that has altered my ancestors is still in my genetic code. I feel terrible exitement under the full moon, often so intense i can no longer bear it. I am often brought to my senses far from my home with little memory other than when i change, my hair elongates slightly, not dramatically, and my eyes become a bright yellow, as well my muscular changes, they fill with blood and expand past capacity.
If any of you wouldl like to comment please do so and if you are ever in arizona you have a home with me

[Xzengrim]

Wow. That sounds like something out of a book. A fiction book.

But anyway... How do you know all that, about your family? What do you do, when the moon is full? Do you consider yourself different from humans? How does the virus work? I had a theory about that, once and ago. I proposed that the virus was a catalyst for lycanthropy. That the genes had to be there to begin with, but that a virus could turn them on and make them work. ANyway, that's what I thought.

Also of little importance: I don't like the French. I've been to France before, and they were mean to me. But then again, I'm German. I don't know if I have a special bloodline or anything. Probably not. But in the Black Forest you never know!

[Mathias]

Well actually you are entirely correct, the virus works like this, as i am told, but yet only minor lab work has been done at the local college on my blood. You see the wolf centuries ago had a local virus that i believe still exists in most wolfs from europe, as it has survived my ancestors in the genes so shall it to the wolf. the Virus was locally held in the saliva of the wolf, of course it is hard to tell if it is as potent, in todays european wolves. I believe ( on a side not that the werewolf virus appeared at the perfect time, right in the age of magic ending and the age of discovery beginning, so that it would get lost in time, but still survive. The virus infects the human psyche somehow, which leads to various side effects, IE lycanthrope which i believe to be the mental state, and an odd reaction to adreniline which is the swelling of muscles and sudden change of eye color, as well, a condition known as hypertrichosis is spawned from this which allows hair to grow rapidly. Though that sympton is only available durring a transformation. There is still so much i do not know. I do know this though, the moon is the key, you must see the moon to trigger the fullest of effects.
As for my ancestry, i know because it has survived in journals and in dreams, i am not permitted to read the journals because i am the youngest of my line, that and i do not speak french, and therefore wouldn't understand. but i have heard the stories from my grandfather, translated over.
Ask and you shall know,
Mathias

[Xavious]

A fiction book.

Truth can be stranger than fiction (and it has been several times in history). If I'm ever in Arizona I'll be sure to visit.

[Ahroun]

The comment i would give is that, just as Mathias, my hair grows way too much, fast and strong.
People ask me if i do hair extentions and so, and now i find funny, but before i used to find it weird (i had no idea what the reason could be). But specially this 2 years, is when it grew the most.
Apart from that, i also get way too excited with the full monn, or days around it (specially a bit before).

As about my eyes, they do change colour, from dark bruin to bright green. But this never happens in minuts. Usually is in fases, like a couple of days or something. I never payed much attention to that.

Maybe the thing that was most hard to ever accept (tough i still do it) was <marking my territory>. I always hated bathrooms, and when i am near Nature... :eek: there i go! Often i even go back to the same place too...
Anyway, this time i was in my land, my mother told me (one time i had to <go to the outside toilet>) that i was just as my grandfather used to be, when alive: he always had to go outside too, and no one ever understood why... :shrug:

As about virus... that i know nothing.

[Xzengrim]

Eyes and hair are a dreadfully far cry from a wolf.

Although, in that respect I have those problems as well. I get in trouble at work continually for showing up "unshaven" even though I shaved just two or three hours before I left the house. That, and I've got that kind of beard that goes up under the eyes, as well as connects to the hair on the back of the neck, 360 around the head. That doesn't help.

My eyes change color as well, but in cycles. They're dark brown normally, but every once in a while they get these little dots of blue. The blue turns lighter and lighter, until the coloring around it turns bright lemony yellow. So instead of dark brown like I usually have, sometimes I have yellow-amber, with little flecks of blue.

As for the moon, my Virus Theory does not give it any *particular* credence. I believe that shifts are triggered by an almost epiliptic reaction within the centers of the brain that control the shift. This can be brought on purely within the mind, but moreoften is brought by certain wavelengths of light. The full moon, I think, bears such a wavelength.

[GhostBat]

I noticed one problem in your post about the full moon Mathias. You stated you must "see" the full moon for any effects to take place. It is true the full moon affects all creatures on Earth because it bends the electromagnetic field surrounding the Earth similar to the tides, so many beings become "excited," and this is basic physics. However, the effects wouldn't change wether you were staring directly at the moon or not. Actually, I remember watching many werewolf movies that depict a man looking at the moon and suddenly transforming. I see no scientific compatibility with your statement.

[Xavious]

I noticed one problem in your post about the full moon Mathias. You stated you must "see" the full moon for any effects to take place. It is true the full moon affects all creatures on Earth because it bends the electromagnetic field surrounding the Earth similar to the tides, so many beings become "excited," and this is basic physics. However, the effects wouldn't change wether you were staring directly at the moon or not. Actually, I remember watching many werewolf movies that depict a man looking at the moon and suddenly transforming. I see no scientific compatibility with your statement.

You might not but I do. The moon is only reflecting light from the sun. The sun has rays that affect people. In theory the moon has a sort of ray that is not strong enough to reach earth and must be carried by the sun rays. The virus and moon rays might somehow correspond with each other resulting in transformation. But like I said it's just a theory.

[Xzengrim]

The moon does affect people in some capacity. It's been proven over and over again that when the moon is full there is a *dramatic* increase in the number of calls to 911, the numbers admitted to emergency rooms, the number of incidents police officers are called to. People just go nuts.

I think it's because there's more light. There's actually something about the dark that makes the human brain get ready to turn off and sleep. But when it's bright outside, they just keep running. Of course, they don't realize that it's too dark and too late for their shenanigans, and they hurt themselves.

[GhostBat]

So you're saying, Xavious, that because the moon reflects the suns rays it somehow affects the virus? A bold statement considering the virus isn't effected during the day, when the suns rays are reaching the Earth directly. Another matter to consider is "the moon having rays." The moon is nothing more than a massive object orbitting Earth. It's dead. If it was an active object, as in having chemical reactions, then yeah, it would emit rays. Not to mention that fact that even if the moon somehow did emit rays, the suns rays would oveshadow them because you yourself said the moons rays were weak. Xzengrim's post makes more sense, and could contribute to the gravitational pull of the moon, but I doubt that could stand alone as the reason.

[Xavious]

So you're saying, Xavious, that because the moon reflects the suns rays it somehow affects the virus? A bold statement considering the virus isn't effected during the day, when the suns rays are reaching the Earth directly. Another matter to consider is "the moon having rays." The moon is nothing more than a massive object orbitting Earth. It's dead. If it was an active object, as in having chemical reactions, then yeah, it would emit rays. Not to mention that fact that even if the moon somehow did emit rays, the suns rays would oveshadow them because you yourself said the moons rays were weak. Xzengrim's post makes more sense, and could contribute to the gravitational pull of the moon, but I doubt that could stand alone as the reason.

Like I said though this is just a theory. I have another one as well. This one I came up with years ago. The gravatational pull of the moon affects all things that have water. The human body is mostly water. The full moon brings higher tides in the ocean. In theory it would do the same for the human body. Let's say instead of a virus it was a gene. The gene could be somehow linked to DNA strands. The gene is highly reactive to the gravatational pull and pulls the gene which in turn pulls the entire strand. It would change the human body.

[GhostBat]

Like I said though this is just a theory. I have another one as well. This one I came up with years ago. The gravatational pull of the moon affects all things that have water. The human body is mostly water. The full moon brings higher tides in the ocean.

Wrong again. The amount of tide depends on the size of the body having tides. Although the moon produces a considerable tide in the Earth's oceans, which are thousands of kilometers apart, it produces scarcely any in a lake. That's because no part of the lake is significantly closer to the moon than any other part, so there is no significant difference in moon pulls on the lake. Similarly for the fluids in your body. Any tides in the fluids of your body cause by the moon are negligible. You're not tall enough for tides. What micro-tides the moon may produce in your body are only about one two-hundredths the tides produced by a 1-kilogram melon held 1 meter above your head. So basicly, the tides produced by the gravitational pull from a melon held above your head is MANY times stronger than those produced from the moon.

Let's say instead of a virus it was a gene. The gene could be somehow linked to DNA strands. The gene is highly reactive to the gravatational pull and pulls the gene which in turn pulls the entire strand. It would change the human body.

Which brings me to this statement, proving you don't have any knowledge in this field. Genes ARE linked to DNA strands. In fact, DNA strands are made of genes. Not to mention EVERYTHING is reactive to the gravitational pull of the moon. Going even farther, not only the moon but everything around you including desk, chair, computer etc. are pulled to each other and to you, as well as by you. The only reason you are unable to see this is because the Earth's gravitational pull is much stronger. Back to basic physics; genes, DNA and viruses are all far too small to be affected by the moons pull. If you would like proof refer to the law of gravitation represented as an equation:
F=G(m1m2)/d^2

[Xavious]

Wrong again. The amount of tide depends on the size of the body having tides. Although the moon produces a considerable tide in the Earth's oceans, which are thousands of kilometers apart, it produces scarcely any in a lake. That's because no part of the lake is significantly closer to the moon than any other part, so there is no significant difference in moon pulls on the lake. Similarly for the fluids in your body. Any tides in the fluids of your body cause by the moon are negligible. You're not tall enough for tides. What micro-tides the moon may produce in your body are only about one two-hundredths the tides produced by a 1-kilogram melon held 1 meter above your head. So basicly, the tides produced by the gravitational pull from a melon held above your head is MANY times stronger than those produced from the moon.



Which brings me to this statement, proving you don't have any knowledge in this field. Genes ARE linked to DNA strands. In fact, DNA strands are made of genes. Not to mention EVERYTHING is reactive to the gravitational pull of the moon. Going even farther, not only the moon but everything around you including desk, chair, computer etc. are pulled to each other and to you, as well as by you. The only reason you are unable to see this is because the Earth's gravitational pull is much stronger. Back to basic physics; genes, DNA and viruses are all far too small to be affected by the moons pull. If you would like proof refer to the law of gravitation represented as an equation:
F=G(m1m2)/d^2


Actually several months ago scientists performed tests and surveys about the effect of the moon on people and found that the moon does affect some people. The surveys said that on the full moon more people must go to the hospital. This wasn't based on just one city but many cities across the U.S. Like I said I only have theories. I'm not saying it's right or wrong because I have no proof. That's why I call them theories.

[GhostBat]

I agree completely that the full moon affects people, and animals as well. If you would care to read my previous posts more carefully, you would understand why. But to save you the trouble I will repeat it here. The moon's gravitational pull bends the Earth's tides, yes, but also the electromagnetic field around the Earth. This bending of the electromagnetic field affects the behavior of all living creatures, including humans.

[Xavious]

I agree completely that the full moon affects people, and animals as well. If you would care to read my previous posts more carefully, you would understand why. But to save you the trouble I will repeat it here. The moon's gravitational pull bends the Earth's tides, yes, but also the electromagnetic field around the Earth. This bending of the electromagnetic field affects the behavior of all living creatures, including humans.

Not to cause any further argument I would like to say that I know about the electromagnetic feilds. I have even constructed some (very fun to make especially the side effects if you hold it a long time).

[Primal]

People! what is lacking is a basic understanding of biology. Virus are not even living they are simply genetic material encased in protein. A protein delivery system inserts viral genetic material into a living cell and copies of the virus are then produced by the host cell. In some cases viral DNA can be incorporated into host DNA on a permanent basis but this kind of viral mediated genetic exchange generally only occurs in very simple bacteria. The only way I could see this happening is if a pregnant woman was bitten and the virus then incorporated genetic material into the undifferentiated cells of the fetus. And these changes to DNA effected brain development causing the physiological responses you have described, when triggered by certain light wave lengths. However moon light is in fact just sunlight so the wavelengths in question would be also present during the day. It is far more likely that the normal physiological responses to full moon trigger the viral DNA produced physiological changes. This said the possibility of this occurring are practically nil, especially when he said it was a male relative that was bitten.

[GhostBat]

Well there you have it, both physics and biology disprove any credible evidence of this ever happening. I doubt anyone could argue with that, though I'm sure at least one person will try.

[Mathias]

I noticed one problem in your post about the full moon Mathias. You stated you must "see" the full moon for any effects to take place. It is true the full moon affects all creatures on Earth because it bends the electromagnetic field surrounding the Earth similar to the tides, so many beings become "excited," and this is basic physics. However, the effects wouldn't change wether you were staring directly at the moon or not. Actually, I remember watching many werewolf movies that depict a man looking at the moon and suddenly transforming. I see no scientific compatibility with your statement.

ah my friend, werewolves, p-shifters there is nothing for our story to stand on as far as p shifting there is no real evidence. just believers. now as for the moon, i am glad you are putting science (as i am a man of science) to my story, and having a great deal of fun with it all, but listen, there is much of this worl science will never account for. These things lay behind our eyes, in our minds, we are only now beginning to realize them, our human collective conciousness is more powerful than anything on this planet. I will explain this if i need to but if you are as intellectually gifted as you appear you will understand.
goodnight

[GhostBat]

Ah, the wise one speaks. I refuse to accept that things happen because they just "happen." To accept that would be to allow oneself to remain in ignorance. Understanding how things around you work, and why, is to understand yourself. That is the purpose of life, for me, at least. Cause and effect is a universal law that applies to everything, and to just "believe" something, and follow it blindly, is the epitome of stupidity. If something occurs, there is a process and reason for it happening. In this way science is able to explain everything in this universe because it's purpose is to discover the why's and how's. However this is my opinion, you're free to think what you will.

[Ahroun]

I refuse to accept that things happen because they just "happen."

Don't forget many things are simply Facts. No matter the reason, they are unchangeable.

[Wraywolf]

Please ghost bat. Stop using that font. It hurts the eyes.

[GhostBat]

Don't forget many things are simply Facts. No matter the reason, they are unchangeable.

I agree. Laws of the universe are simple facts that are unchangeable, and are the foundation of science. But consider this: a child asks his mother, "why is the sky blue?" and the mother replies, "because it is." That child is led to believe that is a simple fact, but in reality there is a reason why. Humanity needs to grow up and realize some things we believe to be facts may not actually be.

[Ahroun]

But accepting that tought,then we also have to wonder if the Laws of the universe are a fact or not. Because following that Logica, then there would be no facts at all.
Everything indeed has a reason to be. A cause.
Maximum i would say then is that we call/consider facts what we have no explanation for.

Anyway, Facts will always be a Fact, cause i do not believe we will be smart enough, or grow enough, to find all the answears :wavey:

Hugs!
Ahroun

[GhostBat]

Again, I agree with you that we do not truly know if the laws of the universe are facts or not. However, they are proven to work in explaining what we perceive and therefore are a reliable basis to rely on.

[Primal]

The sky is blue because air absorbs all light in the spectrum except for blue light, which it reflects. However why is every flake of snow an entirely individual complex geometric design? Why is it I can see energy flowing around and between living things. Swarms like gnats and ants are in fact one organism when viewed in this way. Why is it dreams…. your dreams show you future events that you then recall as that I have been here before feeling? How is it the earth sings her sweet songs to me and shows me the faces of her children in the clouds? Why is it the more I learn about the world the more I realize how feeble the explanations of science are? Why is it I know that you know that we are all part of something bigger then we are on our own. Why is it when I love the forest it loves me back? Science can only flail around in the darkness and occasionally run into ideas that sound a bit right. We then slap a load of evidence on these ideas and fool our selves into thinking they are set in stone. One thousand years ago It was a law that the earth was flat. The truth lies in the middle ground If a cell is round due to air pressure it is because the mother/farther/group consciousness, made air.

[*WolfSpirit*]

The answer to your questions, Primal, is that we do not truly know any of those things. However, a large majority of what you asked lies in the same region as "if a tree falls in the forest with no one around to hear it, does it make a noise?" I believe the point Ghost Bat was trying to make was everyone is a blind person fumbling around and not knowing where they are headed, while science is a cane providing some basic knowlegde of that.

[spawnofFenrir]

There is always a chance that it has nothing to do with the moon and that it just happens at the same time as the full moon unlikely but just a suggestion

[silenceowl]

Don't forget many things are simply Facts. No matter the reason, they are unchangeable.

nothing is unchangeable Ahroun,
everything changes no matter how rock solid they may seem.

[Mathias]

Ah, the wise one speaks. I refuse to accept that things happen because they just "happen." To accept that would be to allow oneself to remain in ignorance. Understanding how things around you work, and why, is to understand yourself. That is the purpose of life, for me, at least. Cause and effect is a universal law that applies to everything, and to just "believe" something, and follow it blindly, is the epitome of stupidity. If something occurs, there is a process and reason for it happening. In this way science is able to explain everything in this universe because it's purpose is to discover the why's and how's. However this is my opinion, you're free to think what you will.

Look at it from my point of view, it is our beliefs that carry us through, and there are many things that do "just"happen. Things we can only theorize about, now if in 20 years our sciences go so far as to recognize p shifters and there link w/ the moon as being something almost unexplainable that in actuality it a reality then wouln't you feel stupid. BTW we follow blind leads in life all the time, our jobs everything about humanity sugguests we do things simply because they are. I do not need to explain myself but then there are the beliefs that carry us through life. Christian faith and all the other crap that goes w/there just are things that if enough of us believe in our collective minds carry us through, my belief in my abilities do not require your approval this argument you all have carried on is just one example of you people trying to assume something unto yourselves that is out of your control. You cannot change what is under no system of control in the first place.

[Xzengrim]

It is unlikely that lycanthropy is tied directly to the full moon. After all, wolves do not howl at the moon (not usually, anyway). WOlves have nothing to do with the moon and could care less. They howl to their packs and to other wolves; you're just more likely to hear it when the moon is full because with the extra light the wolves are more active at night. They are more vocal and their hunting carries them farther out. They seem to howl at the moon because they tip their heads back to let the sound carry further. Of course, all animals are more active during the full moon, humans included.

That, and nothing "just happens". Even spontaneous things are the products of cause and effect. That chain of events, though, is frequently so infinitesimal and convoluted that there is no way to distinguish it from that which is truly and completely random.

[GhostBat]

I've proved my point already, which is: this thread should be in the Lore and Myth section because that is all you have to base your far reaching arguments on.

[sno raven]

a french cobbler was bitten by a wolf while walking in the forests, he soon became what many in my line are.


First and fore most, there is no virus that can be transmitted to humans by a wild animal that would make their physical body shapeshift. Unless its saliva was made of toxins or something.
If he was bitten by a wolf (or so the ledgend says, he could've just gone insane and people thought he was bit by a wolf and was turned into a werewolf) it is most likely that he got rabies. Which would cause an untreated human to, well.. act like a rabid animal! Or so they say.

Second, You've gotta be kidding me! As someone had already explained in this thread, and many a time before. The moon has little to do with wolves and they don't "howl at the moon". Yes, the moon has a proven affect on ALL of us. It may be a slight affect or a major one. I did hear that there are statistically more crimes committed during the full moon phases. Something with the chemicals in our brain reacting to the gravitational pull. (Someone correct me if i'm wrong).

I do have to say that it IS possible that your family could have lores and ledgends behind it, but it doesn't mean that your ancestors were TRUE werewolves.. or other beings. Lets face it, ALOT of people were nutso back then not to mention uneducated. With all those witch and werewolf (yes) trials. I could go into detail with that but I'll safe it for another time.A.

Everything that you have said in your first post here sounded like you took it straight out of a book. And if I do say so myself, you sound alot like that WerewolfTobias guy. Although, you aren't claiming to have killed anyone yet. But thats a good question, have you?

Therianthropy (the closest thing to a real werewolf without going into psychotic lycanthropy) is spiritual. Its a part of you yes, but there hasn't been any proof that its genetic because its part of your spirit. Many therians can dream shift and mentally shift. But it is scientifically, and if you use your commonsense, impossible to do. If it was possible, it would take a tremendous amount of energy just to shift slightly. Since changing bone structure is pretty hard to do. The way a humans skull is compared to that of a wolf (or any animal) suggests that if a physical shift HAD occured the individual would probably not live through it. Not to mention the other organs of the body. Being squished to a tiny size and then enlarged again would be seriously fatal. And if a theory proposed that the organs did not change size, just consider a human sized heart fitting inside the tiny chest cavity of a cat. Instant death. Or close to it. Even lungs, or the brain.

In conclusion. Shapeshifting is impossible. If you think you have a spiritual and emotional connection to wolves you still may be a therianthrope. Otherwise, don't waste your time. And ours.

[Deeper Shade]

I believe in aura and charkas. I believe humans are capable of things that science can’t explain. There is an energy to everything and if you would open up your senses you would realize this, and you would be the better person for it. I can also see energy between living things.

As for my proof that there is aura so I don’t get jumped by Gb. Take martial artist. NOT THE STUPID FUCKED UP AMATURES. I mean like real ones. They are able to do things with there body science cant explain. Like for instance Bruce lee's 1in punch. Scientist said it wasn’t possible but he knocked a 190lbs guy six feet through the air. Bruce lee and all exceptional martial artists believe in a power within themselves. If humans could ever learn how to use this power. Life would be simpler.

( Go ahead and bash all you want)

[blueeyes]

-.-

We all know that the moon causes the tides by its gravity, but in order to examine other phenomenon attributed to it, we must quantify the gravitational effect of the moon on an object on the surface of the earth.
Thanks to the brilliant work of Sir Isaac Newton, we can, through the following formula, Fg=(G*Mmoon*Mobj)/(r^2), in which Fg is the gravitational force of the moon, Mmoon is the mass of the moon, mobj is the mass of the object in question, and r is the distance between the center of mass of the moon and the center of mass of the object. Given that G = 6.673 * 10-11, the mass of the moon is 7.35 * 10^23 kg, the mass of a 180 lb human is 81.6 kg, and distance between a human standing on earth’s surface and the center of mass of the moon is, at closest, is 3.57 * 10^8 m, the total force on an adult human by the moon’s gravity is .0314 Newtons, or, in English units, .00706 lbs, or .113 ounces. This is less force than the weight of a sheet of paper.(ed: that's less gravatational effect than holding a book over your head. It affects the sea because the sea is big, while you or I are both not.)

You will note that the distance from the moon to the earth does not play a part in the phase of the moon. This means, according to the above equation, the gravitational effect is always the same, regardless of phase (technically the moon does move in an elliptical orbit with an eccentricity of .0549, but the apogee and perigee, when it is furthest and closest, do not correlate to specific phases, and vary throughout the year as the earth moves in its orbit).

In fact, you will note that, while the moon orbits the earth every 28 days, the earth completes a revolution every 24 hours, meaning the distance between a person on the earth’s surface and the moon varies with a 24 hour period, not a 4 week period (high tides occur every 12 hours because the properties of fluids cause a corresponding bulge to appear on the side of the planet most distant from the moon). If the moon’s gravity did cause any effect in people, that effect would be every 24 hours.

If there's any affect from the phases of the moon, I assure you that's it is all in your head and your view of what werewolves should act like.

There are some pieces of evidence supporting the existence of auras. There's also a bunch showing auras don't exist, including one 'well-accepted reader' getting a 40% rate in a positive-negative test she designed herself.

Now, if you want to start a conversation on auras, please take it to a fresh thread in the right forum. I'd rather we not spend a hundred posts talking about wolves and the moon and kill an otherwise interesting topic.

[Darth Cluich]

I agree with blue. I just lost 20 IQ points reading the drivel that's been posted here over the past few days. That's 20 IQ points I can't afford to lose! :p

[Cuttail]

Who can?

[DarkWolf]

Why was this thread resurrected again?

Read the rules: Discuss P-Shifting in a different forum, this isn't the place to repeat that same annoying debate.

Moon things is a mythological aspect: Myth & Meta

Auras can be discussed here, but are irrelevant to this thread as Blueeyes said.

P-Shifting is either, Myth & Meta, Biology or LARP.

For a THIRD time: Leave dead topics dead.