Spirits in Witchcraft

[Stephen Knight]

We shall move the thread here until someone else decides we are slightly off topic and resorts to insults to make us move it to yet another section of the forum.

Where do the spirits used in witchcraft (and/or wicca) come from?

[MorganaFang]

We shall move the thread here until someone else decides we are slightly off topic and resorts to insults to make us move it to yet another section of the forum.

Where do the spirits used in witchcraft (and/or wicca) come from?

The earth, wiccans or other pagans usually have a central focus that the earth has it's own soul along with everything else.

[Stephen Knight]

So an inanimate object, like a cup, has a sprirt? Or just things that generate energy like plants or animals or people?

[MorganaFang]

So an inanimate object, like a cup, has a sprirt? Or just things that generate energy like plants or animals or people?

Some people are wacky enough to think so, but mostly it's all things that generate energy.

[Stephen Knight]

are spirits neutral or are there good and bad spirits and how do we know?

[Stephen Knight]

Whoa! Morgana, yer a girl! All this time I thought I was talkin to a guy!

Apologies Madame.

[Shield_Wulf]

are spirits neutral or are there good and bad spirits and how do we know?

Some believe they are neutral, while others make put them into the good/bad area. And some times it's hard to tell if the are there to help or hurt, you just have to be careful.
And if it's cool I am reposting what I wrote early here:

Note: I don't know everything on this topic, this is just what I have leaned though talking to people and some reading I've done, and not all working are Witchcraft(that is just a term one uses to place something in to a group). Well it would depended on the Religion first. Okay, lets take the believe of the Druid first. The spirits the would have worked with those of Animal and planets, some time those of the Element. With the believes of the Native people of the US, they would also work with the Spirits of Planets, Animal, and the the Spirits of the Element, and with the Spirits of there Ancestors. One other religion I kind of know about is Shinto. There also worship and work with spirit like the one I've already menched above.
This is only IMO and if any one else would like to add to this and can corrcet me please do.

[DarkWolf]

Whoa! Morgana, yer a girl! All this time I thought I was talkin to a guy!

Apologies Madame.
And the fact her screenname starts "Morgana", a woman's name, didn't tip you off?

Anyway,

From what I understand about the spirits is that it was the alternative to the polytheistic variety of the monotheistic excuse: instead of "god did that" for monotheism or "one of the gods did that" of polytheism the spirit thing was "a spirit did that". In witchcraft the idea was to call upon the relevant spirits to aid you in your magical workings. They stem from the source of all things the chaos that gave forth life et cetera.

This is why I keep mentioning how witchcraft and wicca are different. In Wicca they're not spirits. They're regarding as either elemental beings usually that of your own creation. There are wiccan rituals that allow you to envisualise the elements around you and taking form. The idea being that you gain an elemental to help guide and protect you throughout life. Wicca is not spirit based like witchcraft (witchcraft stems in MANY different ways and spirits, gods, demons, elementals and all sorts of things can be involved. There's no real limit since witchcraft is not a singular thing but general category of things). It's like how Christians believe God aids them in or they have guardian angels. So Wicca have their version in the form of elementals. They are not spirits, they are not technically alive in any way and are simply a sentience forged of your energy. It serves little purpose beyond peace of mind.

Wicca is primarily about "Mother Earth" and from there came Gods and other deities. These are not spirits.

[MorganaFang]

Whoa! Morgana, yer a girl! All this time I thought I was talkin to a guy!

Apologies Madame.

Haha no need for apologies, that is kind of why I picked the avvy. To throw people off.

I suppose since DW is being a grump about acting like wiccan and witch craft are the same I'll stick to that.

Wicca as opposed to witch craft, deals more with energy, and cumulating good energy from the earth and it's inhabitants. For the most part.

Witch craft is more a general deal because technically voodoo and any other pagan religion is considered witch craft. Witch craft is a practicing of casting spells, making herbs, potions, familiar, whatever. It does not necessarily entail evil things.

The term witch craft just became a derogatory term out of ignorance or fear. In reality a lot of pagan based religions are earth friendly and good power generating.

There are some pagan, or witch oriented spiritually though that acknowledges that there is a darker power and it is an individual's choice to embrace that dark side or not.

Spirits can be both good or bad, it depends on how people react to them or what function they serve.

I'm a little tired to go digging up references but I may in the future put up beginner facts to wicca, voodoo, druidism, fae, and whatever else I have.

I can even pull up some references that time some of the spirituality's with christianity.

[DarkWolf]

I suppose since DW is being a grump about acting like wiccan and witch craft are the same I'll stick to that.I prefer the term "anal retentive". Thank you. :p

[MorganaFang]

I prefer the term "anal retentive". Thank you. :p

But grump makes you sound a weird kind of angry cuddly creature. Like a little pissed off mole that you cannot help but love.

[DarkWolf]

Suffice to say: I still prefer the term anal retentive. (o.O)

Anyways, 'nough of my off-topicness, spirit talking, go!

[DarkHunter]

A bit off topic: Wicca is a religion that essentially worships nature. Witchcraft is a religious practice that attempts to control some force (in this case a "Spirit") to some affect in the world (for most Wiccans, often healing or wellness or something of that sort).

A bit closer to home:

Wicca usually has a focus on the Earth. It is not exactly an inanimate object and some people have speculated that the Earth itself might qualify as a living thing. Even if the Earth itself doesn't, the collective lifeforce expended by various organisms is what the Wiccan would be drawing on.

Stephen its rather ignorant to tie Wicca and Satanism together. Most Wiccans would get offended and about every Satanist I've ever met or heard of would be too.

Satanism and Wicca are drastically different. If you were well read, you would no doubt be aware of this fact.

Its true that Satanists practice a form of witchcraft. Of course Satanic magic draws on one's own inner Dark Force (Satan). See? Two different things.

[Layira Aura]

Ok, I'm going to try and explain this with as little confusion to myself and others, so bear with me! :D


Well, say you have a pencil. True, it is inanimate and does not give off energy directly. But the things that make up the pencil, the atoms and molecules and all that technical stuff, do give off energy because it is "living", or was. So, yes the pencil itself does not actually have a spirit, but the things that make it up do give off energy because they are still "alive".

Again, it's hard to explain.

So, Wiccan and Witchcraft. Well, as everyone else has said, Wicca relates to the elements and the earth. Wiccas bend elements((not literally)) and use them to help them, however, the elements themselves aren't doing the work. It is the energy that they provide that a Wicca seeks. These elemental "spirits" are everywhere, you could even say that since an element has life, an individual spirit. Kind of life a human. Witchcraft doesn't really have anything to do with elementals, it has more to do with the aid of the spirits to do their will. Or, sometimes using spells or potions to enhance the natural power of their being. But, because someone is using spirits, this does not mean that the spirits are nessacarily bad or good, they take more of a neutral position unless tampered with. I suppose that if someone bad was using a spirit to do bad things, then that spirit could be considered bad too. and vice versa.

That's my take, do what you will. ((But don't butcher it too much!:D ))

~*Layira*~

[Stephen Knight]

A little bit about me: I have been born and raised 100% Christian. I’ve been saved since I was five and have gone to church as long as I can remember. I naturally have a lot of confidence in my religion as I have studied it and been raised on it.

Now, most people (especially ones my age) would be compelled, once they see people who are into Wicca or worship Satan, to say good-bye to this forum. Then everyone here would say there goes another stupid close-minded Christian freak. However, I’ve been trying to stay as open minded as possible about these things, hence my continuous questions about Wicca.

So given an understanding of my background, here are my questions:

To those who believe in Satan: Why this side? Why not God’s side? What made you change your mind?

To those in Wicca: What makes you so sure the powers you are dealing with are from the earth and not a demonic entity?

To those in witchcraft: Does witchcraft, as you see it, deal with satanic and demonic powers, or something else? And if they are demonic what makes you so sure you have control?

It will do me no good to stand here and pound an imaginary pulpit, as many of you have made your decision and won’t be straying from it. What I do ask for in the answering of these questions is a bit of respect. Save the stupid petty insults and the jabs at Christianity and please answer my questions with some intelligence and thought. I wish to understand a point of view that pretty much every other Christian I know strays away from.

Thanks, :cool:
Stephen

[DarkWolf]

To those who believe in Satan: Why this side? Why not God’s side? What made you change your mind?Usually the same reasons for why you believe in God and why you don't like Satan. Change of mind? Why do you think they had to change their minds to believe in Satan? Why does believing in Satan mean they take his side? Believing in something doesn't mean you're taking that side.

To those in Wicca: What makes you so sure the powers you are dealing with are from the earth and not a demonic entity?The same question applies to you and the answer is probably similar. What makes you so sure that 'God's words' are actually from God and not from something else entirely?

To those in witchcraft: Does witchcraft, as you see it, deal with satanic and demonic powers, or something else? And if they are demonic what makes you so sure you have control?Witchcraft never deals with Satanic powers. There are instances of demonic energy but you have to realise they don't go by the Church's twisted version of what a demon is. A demon means any supernatural entity greater than human but lesser than deity. It was your Church that decided it was evil. Witchcraft largely doesn't go by a Church's twisted meanings. Also control is not guaranteed which is why it must be practiced properly not dabbled in jokingly. There are rituals which can be done beforehand to ensure any demonic or darker energies cannot harm or control you.

I should point out that taking Satan's side, as you put it, is not actually Satanism. I should also point out that Wicca and Satan-Side-Taking and Satanism are irrelevant to this thread.

[Ves]

Interesting thread.

The thing to bear in mind (as has been pretty much alluded to elsewhere) is that "witchcraft" refers to possibly hundreds of different forms, quasi-religions, actual religions, practices and gawd knows what else. Extend this to "magick", which is what I suspect the OP was actually thinking of, and the number gets even higher.
Some of these forms deal with spiritual entities, spiritual energies, and so forth. Some of them absolutely do not (though offhand I admit I'm having trouble thinking of one that doesn't).
For most (such as my own practices) dealing with spirits is merely a part of the whole. Shamanism and certain High Magicks on the other hand are pretty much all about the spirits. Shamanism (which itself can be found as part of other practices - Gypsy magick for instance is mostly about herbology and talismancy, but can involve a little shamanism too) is a lot about the natural spirits to be found around the area, and conversing with those spirits. High magick can involve the invokation of Angels - one does not summon an angel, one essentially invites it to appear and hopes it's not pissed off when it arrives.
It's just not as cut and dry as "are there spirits in witchcraft".

Similarly, whether the spirits we deal with are good or bad is not so simple. Sure some are out and out evil, some are ultimately very fluffy. More often it's a shade of grey than something so simplistic as good or evil just as it is with people - even Jesus wasn't 100% good (despite what certain people would have you believe).
If one conjures a spirit and it's nice, it certainly doesn't mean that spirit will be nice if you summon it again. Especially if something happens to affect what's important to it such as a tree spirit who's forest is being burnt down by human ignorance.

Would magick require the conjuration of an "evil" spirit? Again there's no hard and fast rule covering all magick, but in my form, this would really rather depend on what you're trying to achieve. If you're using spirits to lay a curse on some poor sod, you ain't going to do with with a fluffy bunny spirit.
While many forms at least recognise an equivalent of the Devil (if not necessarily in the form of Lucifer), that does not mean they worship it any more than Christians do. They just might have a better understanding of what it is within their own belief structure.

[Stephen Knight]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Here is my next question then:

Bearing in mind that I’m a Christian and understanding my viewpoint.

What makes you so sure that the "spirits" be it a tree spirit, a good spirit, a bad spirit, are the spirits that you say they are and not simply a demon?

Remember, in Christianity demons know the bible from the first to the last word. So their ultimate goal (since they have already made their decision to reject God) is to separate as many souls as they can from Him. Not necessarily hurt you as bad as they can right off the bat. So as far as I see it they could make people believe they were a tree spirit or whatever else and as long as that person never accepts Christ, well then they will burn in hell anyway so the goal's accomplished.

Obviously the above is not the viewpoint of those who practice this type of stuff. Which is why I’m continually pecking away. I would like to see the other side better.

Stephen

[Ves]

Bearing in mind that I’m a Christian and understanding my viewpoint.
I understand your viewpoint, fear not.
I will say though, I think you need to stop allowing your Christianity to colour your judgement on this thing. Else you'll never truly understand what's. I know that's not an easy thing to do but it's not impossible.
If it helps I will say that one of if not the most devout Christians I know is alsoa practicing Ceremonial Mage (prolly helps you believe when you've had a chat with the Archangel Gabriel).

What makes you so sure that the "spirits" be it a tree spirit, a good spirit, a bad spirit
Truth be told, on paper you can't. It's kind of instinctual really. Most people who deal with the spirit will probably be unfortunate enough to have dealt with what you call a demon at some point. I certainly have, my friend I mentioned above sometimes goes out hunting them down. I can't really say how you can tell the difference, you just can.

So as far as I see it they could make people believe they were a tree spirit or whatever else and as long as that person never accepts Christ, well then they will burn in hell anyway so the goal's accomplished.
You appear to assume that no worker of magick will accept Christ. Which as I've already said is wrong. Granted you'd never see any of the Christians that work magick I know say they've "accepted Christ", but that's just how Christianity tends to work in my country (we just assume that if you're a Christian, you've accepted Christ, no need to go banging on about it).
Seeing as how simply consorting with spirits does not necessarily turn you from your religious leanings on it's own, demons wouldn't gain anything by getting people to do it. Indeed ironically the thing that usually forces practitioners of magick to turn their backs on Christianity is the church itself! The Devil need do nothing but sit back and watch as Gods own servants do his work for him.

I would like to see the other side better.
Last year I was having a chat with a Freemason about Freemasonry - my family used to be Freemasons and I'm very interested in their beliefs and so forth. This guy gave me some advice and I think that it applies to you too - "you'll never get the answers you seek from the outside".
If you're interested in magick, try it. Be careful, DON'T f**k about with spirits until you know what you're doing, start with basic energy manipulation, some ritual magick (you can fit this into your own beliefs - proper Christianity should have ritual in it), a little herbology and healing. Try a bit of Kabbalah, maybe even read up on Dr. John Dee. I would steer clear of the likes of Crowely initially - even though he was about summoning Angels, he was a bit on the out there side.
Don't be afraid of it, and keep your own pace. God will not punish you quite as quickly as you seem to think.

And in case you're thinking it, I'm not some clever internet demon trying to tempt you ;)

[DarkWolf]

What makes you so sure that the "spirits" be it a tree spirit, a good spirit, a bad spirit, are the spirits that you say they are and not simply a demon?I've covered this. Please read my post. Ves also covered this in a non-direct way so please read his post too.

Remember, in Christianity demons know the bible from the first to the last word. So their ultimate goal (since they have already made their decision to reject God) is to separate as many souls as they can from Him. Not necessarily hurt you as bad as they can right off the bat. So as far as I see it they could make people believe they were a tree spirit or whatever else and as long as that person never accepts Christ, well then they will burn in hell anyway so the goal's accomplished.And remember, in Witchcraft Christianity holds no sway at all. We're not talking about Christianity. We're talking about witchcraft which doesn't go by your religion's twisted definition of a demon. The demons in witchcraft and in christianity are VERY different. There is no point in trying to bring Christianity into this discussion. Demons, angels, spirits and such as in Witchcraft are all completely different from christianity's definition. In Witchcraft there is no singular God, the bible means nothing, there is no Christ, there is no saving, and demons are not intent to send you to hell or heaven.

If you want to "see the other side better" then stop trying to view it from a Christian standpoint else you'll never see the "other side" at all.