Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

[LV426]

Television evangelist Falwell dies at 73

By SUE LINDSEY, Associated Press Writer 7 minutes ago

LYNCHBURG, Va. - The Rev. Jerry Falwell, the folksy, small-town preacher who used the power of television to found the Moral Majority and turn the Christian right into a mighty force in American politics during the Reagan years, died Tuesday at 73.


Falwell was found without a pulse in his office at Liberty University and pronounced dead at a hospital an hour later. Dr. Carl Moore, Falwell's physician, said he had a heart condition and presumably died of a heart rhythm abnormality.

Driven into politics by the 1973 Supreme Court ruling that established the right to an abortion, Falwell founded the Moral Majority in 1979. One of the conservative lobbying group's greatest triumphs came just a year later, when
Ronald Reagan was elected president.

Falwell credited the Moral Majority with getting millions of conservative voters registered, aiding in Reagan's victory and giving Republicans control of the Senate.

"I shudder to think where the country would be right now if the religious right had not evolved," he said when he stepped down as Moral Majority president in 1987.

Fellow TV evangelist Pat Robertson, himself a one-time GOP candidate for president, pronounced Falwell "a tower of strength on many of the moral issues which have confronted our nation."

The rise of Christian conservatism — and the Moral Majority's full-throated condemnation of homosexuality, abortion and pornography — made Falwell perhaps the most recognizable figure on the evangelical right, and one of its most controversial ones, too.

Over the years, Falwell waged a landmark libel case against Hustler magazine founder Larry Flynt over a raunchy parody ad, and created a furor in 1999 when one of his publications suggested that that the purse-carrying "Teletubbies" character Tinky Winky was gay.

Matt Foreman, executive director of National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, extended condolences to those close to Falwell, but added: "Unfortunately, we will always remember him as a founder and leader of America's anti-gay industry, someone who exacerbated the nation's appalling response to the onslaught of the
AIDS epidemic, someone who demonized and vilified us for political gain and someone who used religion to divide rather than unite our nation."

The 1980s marked the religious conservative movement's high-water mark. In more recent years, Falwell had become a problematic figure for the GOP. His remarks days after Sept. 11, 2001, essentially blaming feminists, gays and liberals for bringing on the terrorist attacks drew a rebuke from the White House, and he apologized.

Falwell's declining political star seemed apparent when he quietly led in and out of the Republican Party's 2004 national convention. Just four years earlier, he was invited to pray from the rostrum.

The big, blue-eyed preacher with a booming voice started a fundamentalist church in an abandoned bottling plant in Lynchburg in 1956 with just 35 members. He built it into a religious empire that included the 22,000-member Thomas Road Baptist Church, the "Old Time Gospel Hour" carried on TV stations around the country and 7,700-student Liberty University, which Falwell founded in 1971 as Lynchburg Baptist College.

From his living room, he broadcast his message of salvation and raised the donations that helped his ministry grow.

"He was one of the first to come up with ways to use television to expand his ministry," said Robert Alley, a retired University of Richmond religion professor who studied and criticized Falwell's career.

Falwell had once opposed mixing preaching with politics, but changed his views, and founded the political lobbying organization Moral Majority. It grew to 6.5 million members and raised $69 million as it supported conservative politicians and campaigned against abortion, homosexuality, pornography and bans on school prayer.

Falwell became the face of the religious right, appearing on national magazine covers and on television talk shows. In 1983, U.S. News & World Report named him one of 25 most influential people in America.

"Dr. Falwell was a man of distinguished accomplishment who devoted his life to serving his faith and country," said Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), a GOP presidential contender who during the 2000 primaries referred to Falwell and the Rev. Pat Robertson as "agents of intolerance." McCain has since distanced himself from those comments.

In 1984, he sued Hustler for $45 million, charging that he was libeled by an liquor-ad parody that quoted him as saying he lost his virginity to his mother in an outhouse.

A federal jury found the fake ad did not libel him, but awarded him $200,000 for emotional distress. That verdict was overturned in a landmark 1988
U.S. Supreme Court decision that held that even pornographic spoofs about a public figure enjoy First Amendment protection.

With Falwell's high profile came frequent criticism, even from fellow ministers. The Rev. Billy Graham once rebuked him for political sermonizing on "non-moral issues."

Falwell quit the Moral Majority in 1987, saying he was tired of being "a lightning rod" and wanted to devote his time to his ministry and Liberty University. But he remained outspoken and continued to draw criticism for his remarks.

In 1999, he told an evangelical conference that the Antichrist was a male Jew who was probably already alive. Falwell later apologized for the remark but not for holding the belief. A month later, his National Liberty Journal warned parents that Tinky Winky, the children's TV character, was a gay role model and morally damaging to children.

Falwell was re-energized after family values proved important in the 2004 presidential election. He formed the Faith and Values Coalition as the "21st Century resurrection of the Moral Majority," to seek anti-abortion judges, a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage and more conservative elected officials.

In 1987, Falwell took over the PTL (Praise the Lord) ministry in South Carolina after the Rev. Jim Bakker got caught in a sex and money scandal. Falwell slid fully clothed down a theme park water slide after donors met his fund-raising goal to help rescue the rival ministry. He gave it up seven months later after learning the depth of PTL's financial problems.

Largely because of the sex scandals involving Bakker and fellow evangelist Jimmy Swaggart, donations to Falwell's ministry dropped from $135 million in 1986 to less than $100 million the following year. Hundreds of workers were laid off and viewers of his television show dwindled.

Liberty University was $73 million in debt and on the verge of bankruptcy, and his "Old Time Gospel Hour" was $16 million in debt. By the mid-1990s, two local businessmen with long ties to Falwell began overseeing the finances and helped get companies to forgive debts or write them off.

Falwell devoted much of his time keeping his university afloat. He dreamed that Liberty would grow to 50,000 students and be to fundamentalist Christians what Notre Dame is to Roman Catholics and Brigham Young University is to Mormons.

Falwell's father and his grandfather were militant atheists, he wrote in his autobiography. He said his father made a fortune off his businesses — including bootlegging during Prohibition.

As a student, Falwell was a star athlete and a prankster who was barred from giving his high school valedictorian's speech after he was caught using counterfeit lunch tickets his senior year.

He ran with a gang of juvenile delinquents before becoming a born-again Christian at age 19. He turned down an offer to play professional baseball and transferred from Lynchburg College to Baptist Bible College in Springfield, Mo.

"My heart was burning to serve Christ," he once said in an interview. "I knew nothing would ever be the same again."

Falwell had made careful preparations for a transition of his leadership to his two sons, Jerry Falwell, Jr., now vice chancellor of Liberty University, and Jonathan Falwell, executive the pastor of Thomas Road Baptist Church.

Falwell is survived by his wife, Macel, his two sons and a daughter, Jeannie Falwell Savas. Funeral arrangements were not immediately known.

Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, a Mormon whose own faith has become an issue during his run for the presidency, said Falwell "built and led a movement based on strong principles and strong faith," and "the legacy of his important work will continue through his many ministries where he put his faith into action."

[DarkHunter]

Television evangelist Falwell dies...

...and in a completely unrelated (:rolleyes:) incident, a party at my house.

Hail Satan :beerchug:

[Shield_Wulf]

...and in a completely unrelated (:rolleyes:) incident, a party at my house.

Hail Satan :beerchug:

I'm there, and I'll bring some booze.

[RQ]

If Hell exists, and there's no special, particularly painful part of it set aside for televangelists (oh why not - fundamentalists in general. It would be great to see the looks on their faces) I will be sorely disappointed. Something about lying to the desperate in order to turn a profit.

[J.L.R.]

The irony of those words is the fact if there was a Hell, then the fundamentals would be right, and it would be you who were sorely disappointed. :D

[Stephen Knight]

The irony of those words is the fact if there was a Hell, then the fundamentals would be right, and it would be you who were sorely disappointed. :D

LOL very well stated.:D :D :D

[blueeyes]

Don't say bad things about dead people til they've been buried. It's just not polite, and you can never tell.

The man was a man. He left more than one mark, and made acquaintances with and without making friends. He choose to avoid pragmatic concepts, instead sticking with what he believed despite the disagreements. He tried to create change.

Can't really say much more than that, for now.

[MorganaFang]

Now I can understand Blueeye's sentiment to look for some good in the recently necrofied. But you know, the guy was a jerk straight to the bone. True he tried to create change, but at the same time he back stabbed a lot of his own people in order to get his way.

If people want to dance while they're flopping the body into the gave, I say let them. I am sure he would have done the same for many people.

[Goth Girl]

De mor tu is nil ni si bo num. Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris. Absum!

[RQ]

The irony of those words is the fact if there was a Hell, then the fundamentals would be right, and it would be you who were sorely disappointed. :D How would they be right? Fundamentalists aren't the only wacky group to believe in Hell or some other place of punishment for those who have transgressed on Earth.

[MorganaFang]

How would they be right? Fundamentalists aren't the only wacky group to believe in Hell or some other place of punishment for those who have transgressed on Earth.

I'mma gonna havta agree der :D

Outside the fundy world a lot of religions and different variations of Christianity believe in a very cruel alternative to heaven and rebirth for after one dies.

[Vendetta]

Don't say bad things about dead people til they've been buried. It's just not polite, and you can never tell.
I've never understood this. I don't think there's a bad time to say bad things about bad people.

He choose to avoid pragmatic concepts, instead sticking with what he believed despite the fact that it was biased, racist and often defamatory.
Fixed it for you there.

[Goth Girl]

De mor tu is nil ni si bo num. Not just when they're buried. It is improper to speak ill will of the deceased at all.

[MorganaFang]

De mor tu is nil ni si bo num. Not just when they're buried. It is improper to speak ill will of the deceased at all.

Is he going to come back?

The guy reaped what he sew. The idea should be not to leave people capable of saying mean things at all.

[Vendetta]

Is he going to come back?

The guy reaped what he sew. The idea should be not to leave people capable of saying mean things at all.
Yeah, what she said. I kind of confused about what exactly is improper to speak ill of people dead OR alive. I mean other than quoting some ancient Latin, does anyone have a good reason?

Also, I hate to invoke Godwin's Law, but does this also mean we aren't allowed to say bad things about Hitler? Idi Amin? Pol Pot, et al?

[DarkHunter]

This is silly. If someone is a stupid jerk, dying doesn't make it any different. Dying doesn't magically atone for who you were. You still were a jerk. If Jerry's Ghost wants to discuss it, then thats one thing. But till then I don't feel the need to mince words about a jackass, alive or dead. Its hypocritical to suddenly have a change of heart like that. If you still disagree with everything he was and stood for in life, then there's no reason to act all holy and talk like he was a good person.

[Aeolus]

I've never understood this. I don't think there's a bad time to say bad things about bad people.




I remember that when I recieve word of your death.


Falwell was a firm moral center for our country and, unlike other politicians and media personalities, he voiced his views without the use of insults and obnoxious statements. I am feeling our country has sustained a great loss.

[YoungFang]

I've never heard of the guy but he sounds like an arse, other than that i don't really care.

[J.L.R.]

Well Young Fang, a lot of people call him an ass, bigot, and whot not, simply because he voiced his opinion against homosexuals, and other things that were Biblically taught against. Truth be told, he has EVERY just a bit of right to say what he feels as those who are fore it, just that most people, even on this board, can't stand anyone who disagrees with them...and their choice of lifestyle.

He never incited violence, nor violence against anyone who believed different. He backed his beliefs by the Bible, of which is just as valid, if more so, to base one's beliefs on, as any other source...

[Aeolus]

Well Young Fang, a lot of people call him an ass, bigot, and whot not, simply because he voiced his opinion against homosexuals, and other things that were Biblically taught against. Truth be told, he has EVERY just a bit of right to say what he feels as those who are fore it, just that most people, even on this board, can't stand anyone who disagrees with them...and their choice of lifestyle.

He never incited violence, nor violence against anyone who believed different. He backed his beliefs by the Bible, of which is just as valid, if more so, to base one's beliefs on, as any other source...

That sums up my experience on forums. Lots and lots of people who label themselves liberals and act like they have absolute morals when someone disagrees.

Well voiced on that last part, too. Although Darwin was agnostic he believed the bible to have the most accurate moral teaching of any piece of literature.

[Goth Girl]

Tho he did do some back-stabbing. And I never said he was a good guy. Sure some of what he did was good but then he also treated some people badly. That doesn't mean we all have a right to bite his head off when he died. And my thoughts on it. We should have respect for our deceased. Just cuz I hate this or that person doesn't mean I'm going to go dance on their graves when they die. It is improper and disrespectful no matter how awful they were when they were alive. Even Hitler deserves some respect. Even if he was a maniac we have learned mutch from him. And now we can try to keep the same thing from happening in the future, even though I highly doubt anyone living today would do anything. Well, you asked me about why I believe in the old Latin saying and all I just think that we should have some respect for the dead and a little understanding for their lives, no matter how cruel or sadistic they were. I also don't believe in mourning for the dead but that one's just me.

[Stephen Knight]

I've never heard of the guy but he sounds like an arse, other than that i don't really care.

boy that was deep

[J.L.R.]

Tho he did do some back-stabbing. And I never said he was a good guy. Sure some of what he did was good but then he also treated some people badly. That doesn't mean we all have a right to bite his head off when he died. And my thoughts on it. We should have respect for our deceased. Just cuz I hate this or that person doesn't mean I'm going to go dance on their graves when they die. It is improper and disrespectful no matter how awful they were when they were alive. Even Hitler deserves some respect. Even if he was a maniac we have learned mutch from him. And now we can try to keep the same thing from happening in the future, even though I highly doubt anyone living today would do anything. Well, you asked me about why I believe in the old Latin saying and all I just think that we should have some respect for the dead and a little understanding for their lives, no matter how cruel or sadistic they were. I also don't believe in mourning for the dead but that one's just me.

However, the huge difference betweent Jerry Fallwell and Adolf Hitler, is that Jerry didn't do anything awful, other than stepping on a few left winger toes. In short, he is no worse or better than the likes of Ted Kennedy.

It is unfair to Jerry to even place him in the same catagory as Hitler, because Jerry, as a person, was a great guy. Jerry isn't even like that ole Pat Robinson, who just spues rubbish and uses tragic situations, much like those yokals from Kansas, to get headlines, Jerry basically just taught against certains ways of life. He didn't condone acts of violence against anyone, nor did he preach hatred against gays. He simply taught against it. He backed his views by the Bible, and anyone could confirm that his views were Bible based, and not that he was simply using the Bible to justify his stands. In short he wasn't twisting the Bible in order to intice violence as the Ku Klux Klan or Black Panthers due, he was simply stating what the Bible stated in bold black letters.

So in short, he ain't a bastard for stating that America is a sinful nation and needs to repent.

I've heard many skeptics state that he abused the media and forced his own beliefs down other people's throates, but yet there isn't any evidence, other than the skeptic's say so, to prove this. He, as far as I know, wasn't in any scandel. The testimonies of those around him, conclude he was a great man of moral character. Even now, they haven't found evidence that he was hypocritical in his stances, meaning that he lived one life on screen, and live another off screen, as is seen with many televangilists. So in short, we can only conclude, unless real evidence is submited, that he was genuine.

I don't have a problem calling a guy or girl a jackass whether they are alive or not, if the shoe fits, but to act like Jerry Fallwell was a bastard because you simply disagreed with what he said, is for the birds.

[Vendetta]

Tho he did do some back-stabbing. And I never said he was a good guy. Sure some of what he did was good but then he also treated some people badly. That doesn't mean we all have a right to bite his head off when he died.
Why don't we have this right? I assume if we had this right before he died, it's still in effect after he's dead. Also, any good you think he did is purely a matter of subjective opinion. I'm sure there are a lot of people who don't think he did ANY good and was a downright bastard.

And my thoughts on it. We should have respect for our deceased. Just cuz I hate this or that person doesn't mean I'm going to go dance on their graves when they die. It is improper and disrespectful no matter how awful they were when they were alive. Even Hitler deserves some respect. Even if he was a maniac we have learned mutch from him. And now we can try to keep the same thing from happening in the future, even though I highly doubt anyone living today would do anything. Well, you asked me about why I believe in the old Latin saying and all I just think that we should have some respect for the dead and a little understanding for their lives, no matter how cruel or sadistic they were. I also don't believe in mourning for the dead but that one's just me.
Yes we should have understanding of the dead. Understand that some of them were just plain dicks and don't deserve our sympathy dead OR alive. I like how you focused on Hitler; what about Idi Amin or Pol Pot, huh? Yes, I'm sure some Jews would have no problem sympathizing and understand Hitler.

Also, understanding someone doesn't mean that you can't aknowledge them for being, as you put it, "cruel or sadistic" and saying so, even AFTER they have died. Death doesn't endow people with some magic ability not to be talked about.

Also, I'm not engaging in ad hominem here, but please learn to spell. Your post hurts my eyes.

[DarkHunter]

I think its overboard to call him Hitler. I had never heard of him torturing and killing millions of people. Besides, Hitler was a political genius.

The truth be told, Jerry entertained some very Pagan ideas. The fact that he blamed 9/11 not ONLY on Homosexuals, but Pagans, Atheists, Abortion, and a variety of other folks is foolish. It was called "Ma'at" and was the principle of Truth and Morality of a country back in the days of old Kemet. It was the chief duty of the Pharoah to maintain Ma'at or suffer the wrath of the gods.

Sound like anyone? Of course Jerry retracted the statement, but I think it was more to cover his own ass than anything.

It isn't like he was saying we are a sinful nation. Of course we are. We are a sinful species according to Christianity. And its okay to think that. But to blame innocent people like the Pagans and Homosexuals for a terrorist attack that killed three thousand people isn't something that you can just sell off.

If you want to keep going though, Jerry also was one of the first to institute "Hell Houses" where they take you on a tour of sin and into their narrowminded view of "Hell" during Halloween. They portray doctors who perform abortions as cold and uncaring people and the process a decidely quicker one than it actually is. As if anybody can wander in off the street and get one. Imagine that.

I'm all for being strong in your beliefs, but that man was ridiuclous.

[J.L.R.]

Well not everyone agrees with Jerry, and not every Christian for that matter. I would have to look up his actual statements in regards to 9/11, however, if I remember correctly, many pastors made statements in regards to the moral state of America at that time period. If his were along those lines, then he wasn't, in short, blaming innocent people for the actual incident, but the "sin" itself. In short it is America's imorality that has brought this upon ourselves... yatta yatta... Of course, I am not saying that saying such things, even if it is true, during times of tragedy, or using tragedy to push a point, is the right thing to do...

We also have to remember that Jerry Fallwell is a human being, like the rest of us, and we all make mistakes, especially when we are emotional. Look at what Rosy O'Donald believes. She still says that 9/11 is a government conspiracy. Nobody takes such statements seriously, unless they are just THAT polarized.

I remember Pat Robinson blaming Hurricane Katrina on American evilness. Then again, who listens to Pat Robinson anyway... :D

[Goth Girl]

I hate the internet. I always get taken outta context. I wasn't really comparing Jer and Hitler, just trying to use them to state my point. But whatever. I'll leave you all alone after this post and bow out on my own. But in reguards to Jer and homos. It doesn't say in the Bible to hate the gays like he did. I find him very wrong for that. Tho I still don't think we should call him names for it. Everyone is wrong at some point or another. See ya.

[MorganaFang]

I hate the internet. I always get taken outta context.

Heres a huge reason why I'm not posting much in this thread, though I personally don't feel Falwell was my cup of tea as a person I cannot think of saying anything in defense of my way of thinking that would not be taken as a hypocritical or being the most derogatory of things these days, a self righteous liberal.

See, that's called actually thinking of what the possible responses would be prior to posting. This is also something you have to do if you are going to write professional letters, emails to your bosses or coworkers, etc. In order for things to be taken in the context you want them to be taken, put them into that context. It is not completely other people's failing that they misinterpret what you are saying.

[Aeolus]

Most professionals nowadays DON'T think about how people will react.

Of course it's stupid to collate Falwell with Hitler.

He did something very admirable, standing on his own for what he thought was right, that's sort of the idea in this country. Just because it wasn't a left-winger blowing his mouth off again doesn't mean it was bold-faced tyranny.

Further, as others have said, he never did anything truly violent and never told anyone else to in his name; that alone should earn respect and stand as evidence for his character.

There are lots of reasons for respecting the dead with your words, and goth girl already touched up on those reasons briefly: first, no man or woman is absolute evil, there are positive and negative effects of human actions (although sometimes more good than bad) and humans have the capacity to perform 'good' or 'bad' deeds. Second, the dead cannot defend their own character and I find it pathetic when people try to put words in their mouths or slander their dignity. There are many other reasons but I won't go into them now.

[Vendetta]

He did something very admirable, standing on his own for what he thought was right, that's sort of the idea in this country. Just because it wasn't a left-winger blowing his mouth off again doesn't mean it was bold-faced tyranny.
No one said anything about tyranny. Also, how is standing up for what you believe in admirable when the majority of what you believe in denigrates and belittles others?

I find it pathetic when people try to put words in their mouths or slander their dignity.
No one NEEDS to put words in Falwell's mouth, he already said quite a bit (http://thinkexist.com/quotes/jerry_falwell/) that speaks VOLUMES about the "man".

[Stephen Knight]

when the majority of what you believe in denigrates and belittles others?

Exactly what evidence are you basing this off of? :confused:

[RQ]

Exactly what evidence are you basing this off of? :confused:Let me help you, since you are clearly too lazy to click the link provided by Vendetta. The quotes range from the unbelievably bigoted:
“Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions”

"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals”

“The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country”

"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being”

"God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve”

To the pathetically funny:

"There's been a concerted effort to steal Christmas.”

“Textbooks are Soviet propaganda.”

[Stephen Knight]

Let me help you, since you are clearly too lazy to click the link provided by Vendetta.

I wasn't too lazy, I just missed it. OH, WAIT, I was clearly too lazy too look closely. that satisfy yer complex?



The quotes range from the unbelievably bigoted:
“Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions”

"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals”

“The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country”

"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being”

"God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve”

To the pathetically funny:

"There's been a concerted effort to steal Christmas.”

“Textbooks are Soviet propaganda.”

So what's everybody's problem with him? I don't agree with a few of his quotes but the guy spoke his mind. What's the big deal?

[RQ]

So what's everybody's problem with him? I don't agree with a few of his quotes but the guy spoke his mind. What's the big deal?
"Speaking one's mind" does not give you clear license to pubicly be a bigoted hateful monster to everyone you meet, or would you disagree with that too? Should we just accept everything that everyone says, all the time, without question, simply because they have the right to express their opinions? I'm not saying he wasn't entitled to them, but that doesn't make them respectable, polite, moral, correct, or in any way something to aspire to. In fact, quite the opposite.

[Stephen Knight]

I'd like to disagree. :D



Why doesn't it. Lotsa people do it. Besides he didn't come across that way to me.

[Stephen Knight]

Don't forget red, you would come across to him probably the same way he comes across to you.

[RQ]

Don't forget red, you would come across to him probably the same way he comes across to you.Thankfully, he won't be giving opinions on anything anymore.

[Stephen Knight]

Thankfully, he won't be giving opinions on anything anymoire.

now that's just mean.

[MorganaFang]

now that's just mean.

I'd say hilarious, and it's your own fault for putting that up there.

[Stephen Knight]

Now be nice lil girl. ;)


all in good humor, but it's your own fault for putting it up there. :D

[MorganaFang]

Now be nice lil girl. ;)


all in good humor, but it's your own fault for putting it up there. :D

Right, I should expect an 18 year old to reply to my posts calling me little girl. Especially when nothing I said ties together with being a little girl. I'll keep that in mind.

Falwell is dead, people can do what they want he obviously won't get offended.

When I'm dead I expect there to be a few people that are going to be enthused about it. I really don't care by then I will be rotting flesh with worms crawling through the remnants of my brain.

I'm sure the man himself felt the same way. The fact that he continued, until his death to say and act the way he did shows he really could have given a shit about anyone dancing on his grave because to him he was going to heaven so what happens down below doesn't matter.

[Stephen Knight]

Actually what happened down below did matter to him or he wouldn't have continued like he did.


and I'm sorry, yer a big girl not a lil girl :D

[RQ]

and I'm sorry, yer a big girl not a lil girl :DYour manners are appalling.

[Stephen Knight]

Your manners are appalling.

(Bows respectfully) Forgive my insults madame. (walks out bowing several more times during departure)

[J.L.R.]

No one said anything about tyranny. Also, how is standing up for what you believe in admirable when the majority of what you believe in denigrates and belittles others?


No one NEEDS to put words in Falwell's mouth, he already said quite a bit (http://thinkexist.com/quotes/jerry_falwell/) that speaks VOLUMES about the "man".

The PROBLEM with these quotes that you so happily linked is that they are just quotes, and partial quotes at that. Again, you don't have the entire statement at hand, so you can't rightly judge what he is saying.

Issue is, A. you don't know where he was when he said this material. B. You don't know his temperment, C. You don't know his location... so all you have is a bunch of mixed and matched quotes of which have so happily been arranged to make the man look as stupid as ever.

The fact of the matter, how many of us watch constantly what we say while in conversation. What if there were people who disliked us greatly, who were just looking for a reason to put dirt on our name. I am a very nice guy, and I try as I might to be nice to everyone, but if I had anti-Josh people following me around all the time just looking for any tidbit of information to trash my name or make me look a fool, then I'm sure they could gather and twist a bunch of quotes on me to, and that just about goes for anyone.

[DarkHunter]

I guess I'll start speaking my mind indiscriminately. Apparently if you do that you are considered greater for every thousand people you offend, are permitted to accept money from old ladies' life savings to buy expensive suits and fund a program that only helps inflate your own ego, and have your own church for potential tax evasion. Imagine the possibilities! Then I can say stupid shit and deliberately misunderstand people because they disagree with me.

[RQ]

(Bows respectfully) Forgive my insults madame. (walks out bowing several more times during departure)Your remarks weren't clever enough to be insulting. Also, it's "madamoiselle." Furthermore, in addition to being inept at manners and insults, you are also bad at sarcasm. :D

[Vendetta]

The PROBLEM with these quotes that you so happily linked is that they are just quotes, and partial quotes at that. Again, you don't have the entire statement at hand, so you can't rightly judge what he is saying.

Issue is, A. you don't know where he was when he said this material. B. You don't know his temperment, C. You don't know his location... so all you have is a bunch of mixed and matched quotes of which have so happily been arranged to make the man look as stupid as ever.

The fact of the matter, how many of us watch constantly what we say while in conversation. What if there were people who disliked us greatly, who were just looking for a reason to put dirt on our name. I am a very nice guy, and I try as I might to be nice to everyone, but if I had anti-Josh people following me around all the time just looking for any tidbit of information to trash my name or make me look a fool, then I'm sure they could gather and twist a bunch of quotes on me to, and that just about goes for anyone.

How exactly do you suppose those quotes were taken out of context?

"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked and when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad...I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who try to secularize America...I point the thing in their face and say you helped this happen."

"Nah, just kidding!"

Yeah, I don't think so. Also, that site I linked wasn't some evil liberal conspiracy website, it's just website with quotes from prominent people.

EDIT: Actually, strangely enough, it IS an [u]Atheism website (http://www.positiveatheism. org/hist/quotes/foulwell.htm) that actually attributes these quotes, so you get a better idea of CONTEXT. There, happy? No of course you're not because we're attacking a dead guy. You know what's funny, it doesn't even have anything to do with him being religious. There are lots of religious Christians I know and a respect. Just not Falwell.

[Stephen Knight]

If you guys wanna insult Falwell go ahead. You're only lowering yourselves to his standards. (or what you claim to be his standards.)

It's amazing the arguments we come up with to defend our "right" to toss around insults like 5 year olds.

[Vendetta]

If you guys wanna insult Falwell go ahead. You're only lowering yourselves to his standards. (or what you claim to be his standards.)

It's amazing the arguments we come up with to defend our "right" to toss around insults like 5 year olds.
Uhhh, who's insulting him? I'm just saying he said some pretty bigoted things and that I don't particularly care for the man or what he stood for.

[J.L.R.]

He was a bigot because he spoke out against homosexuality, abortion, and other far left agenda motives? I think not... Granted, I will readily admit that some of the things he said were off the wall, but nothing any more inflamatory than you hear from the Liberal world...

Various headliners of the Liberal front have called Christians the American Taliban. Called our Soldiers terrorists to the Iraqis. Bush was responsible for 9/11 and purposely allowed it in order to justify a war in Iraq so he could get more oil...

Come now...

The man was a Christian, as a REAL Christian, he is going to be against Homosexuality, he is going to be against abortion, and he has every right to believe that acceptance of such practices is eroding the moral frabric of our culture, just as MANY liberals get hostile towards Christians, fearing that we, as a people, want to brain wash and control the world...

I don't care if people like him or not... I don't know him personally, so I am indifferent. What does bother me though, is people bashing him, calling him names, just because he preached, peacefully I might add, against issues that most Americans are divided on anyway.

I could understand frustrations with his character, if he protested funerals, or called for the assissantions of foreign leaders, like Pat Robinson, or even spoke Hitleresque rhoetric and the annilation of races or beliefs he deamed improper... but he didn't. He pointed out, albiet very boldly, against characteristics in man and our country that Biblically speaking, was eroding the fabric of morality in our country. You don't agree, that is fine. Jerry Falwell is not perfect, and I do readily agree that from what I've read about the guy, he had some issues, but that does not make him a monster, a bigot, a bastard, diserve to be tortured in everlasting fire... it just makes him human...

[Shield_Wulf]

Well J.L.R. even if he wasn't violent and all he was still a bigot. Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
- big·ot·ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective
- big·ot·ed·ly adverb

Like I said he my not have been violent or spouted hated but by definition he is.

[MorganaFang]

This is a reach but the realest of Christians would probably be *cough* Christ himself? Supposedly he had this saying about doing unto others as others would do on to you. Granted bashing Falwell ain't earning me any points any way but I highly doubt that the most real Christian ever born would have been down with a person so filled with hate towards a group of people. At least this is what I was taught in Sunday school to believe about Jesus Christ.

It is not about the fact that Falwell was an overzealous Christian filled with too much of "god's love." No, the guy was unfoundly unforgiving in saying slanderous insults about large groups of people. That's not filled with god's love that is being ignorant and hateful.

Tammy Faye Baker is also an overzealous Christian but at the least the woman is tolerant and kind. She admits to not understanding a lot of people but she will not be so out right cruel in what she says to them or about them.

[LV426]

He was a bigot because he spoke out against homosexuality, abortion, and other far left agenda motives? I think not... Granted, I will readily admit that some of the things he said were off the wall, but nothing any more inflamatory than you hear from the Liberal world...

Various headliners of the Liberal front have called Christians the American Taliban. Called our Soldiers terrorists to the Iraqis. Bush was responsible for 9/11 and purposely allowed it in order to justify a war in Iraq so he could get more oil...

Come now...

The man was a Christian, as a REAL Christian, he is going to be against Homosexuality, he is going to be against abortion, and he has every right to believe that acceptance of such practices is eroding the moral frabric of our culture, just as MANY liberals get hostile towards Christians, fearing that we, as a people, want to brain wash and control the world...

I don't care if people like him or not... I don't know him personally, so I am indifferent. What does bother me though, is people bashing him, calling him names, just because he preached, peacefully I might add, against issues that most Americans are divided on anyway.

I could understand frustrations with his character, if he protested funerals, or called for the assissantions of foreign leaders, like Pat Robinson, or even spoke Hitleresque rhoetric and the annilation of races or beliefs he deamed improper... but he didn't. He pointed out, albiet very boldly, against characteristics in man and our country that Biblically speaking, was eroding the fabric of morality in our country. You don't agree, that is fine. Jerry Falwell is not perfect, and I do readily agree that from what I've read about the guy, he had some issues, but that does not make him a monster, a bigot, a bastard, diserve to be tortured in everlasting fire... it just makes him human...


It's a sad day when a supposed christian holds up a fundamentalist nutcase as a real christian.

My grandfather lived his life according to the supposed teachings of Jesus Christ. He is and was the closest thing to being a real christian that I ever saw in life. While he may have disagreed with what people believed and how they lived he NEVER preached against them or judged them against his own beliefs. He would never have been outspoken and condemned homosexuals to hell. He would never have said that a woman who had an abortion was a sinner. He may not have believed it was the right choice but in his own words: "God will be their judge when it's their time, it's not for me to presume what god has to say but to better my life by living it the best way I can."

If ANY real christian can stand up and say that they are such and yet stand up for what Fallwell stood for then I feel sorry for your god because you have just denied everything about him.

[Vendetta]

He was a bigot because he spoke out against homosexuality, abortion, and other far left agenda motives? I think not... Granted, I will readily admit that some of the things he said were off the wall, but nothing any more inflamatory than you hear from the Liberal world...

Various headliners of the Liberal front have called Christians the American Taliban. Called our Soldiers terrorists to the Iraqis. Bush was responsible for 9/11 and purposely allowed it in order to justify a war in Iraq so he could get more oil...
So I'm kind of confused, your logic is that he wasnt' a bigot because there are equally offensive bigots on the left? How exactly did this become a political issue? Well, I mean, other than the fact that we're talking about Falwell, a man who notoriously mixed politics and religion, wantonly.

[J.L.R.]

It's a sad day when a supposed christian holds up a fundamentalist nutcase as a real christian.

My grandfather lived his life according to the supposed teachings of Jesus Christ. He is and was the closest thing to being a real christian that I ever saw in life. While he may have disagreed with what people believed and how they lived he NEVER preached against them or judged them against his own beliefs. He would never have been outspoken and condemned homosexuals to hell. He would never have said that a woman who had an abortion was a sinner. He may not have believed it was the right choice but in his own words: "God will be their judge when it's their time, it's not for me to presume what god has to say but to better my life by living it the best way I can."

If ANY real christian can stand up and say that they are such and yet stand up for what Fallwell stood for then I feel sorry for your god because you have just denied everything about him.

Your Grandfather sounds like an exceptional man, and I am certain he was.

Maybe I am speaking another language... or I guess I am not making myself clear...

I will try again...

I don't agree with everything Jerry Falwell says, nor his methods... I am pretty sure you can find other posts I've written about him off and on this board before. My Grandfather knew him personally, and a long time ago, he was a huge supporter in my Grandfather's ministries, but they didn't even see eye to eye on a lot of things.

Yes Jerry Falwell was outspoken, but he was also 73 years old. He told people exactly what was on his mind, without tack, but then again, most older people I know are like that too a fault. Even so with my Grandfather, who is 70 years old. He says things today, he never said 20 years ago, but his patience is waning...

Doesn't make it right of course, but here is the point I am leading to.

None of you know the hardships of the ministry. The only reason I know, is because my Grandfather is a preacher, and has been for some 57 years. My Grandfather is the most kind, caring, generous person on the face of the planet, outside of LH's late Grandfather. :) He loves people, and even those who don't believe like us. I remember once a neighbore of ours, who is not a Christian, and quite the anti-Christian themselves' lawn mower broke. My Grandfather took his lawn mower over there and MOWED his lawn for him. He is just that kind of man...

You see though, it doesn't matter how loving and caring he is, because he is a preacher, a Christian preacher at that, he has come under a lot of fire. He used to be nearly as big as Jerry Falwell, as far as the ministry goes, and in truth he was probably bigger in many ways. He was cream of the crop, the United States most sought after missionary, and was often booked three to four months in advance. People loved him, and still we can go to almost any country, and meet somebody who was touched by his life in someways or another. It is really a small world...

However, organizations like the GLBT, Women's LIB, and their alike, went after my grandfather like wasps to a bee hive. My Grandfather never did anything to anyone of these people. He even had friends who were gay. We used to have Mexico Connection parties at two lesbians house. They knew he disagreed with their lifestyle, but he loved them, and they loved him... However, these people of whom, never met him, never talked with him, were nailing him. It was disgusting. I have no respect for these organizations, because they all act high and mighty, as if they care about rights and crap, when all they care about is forcing their own dogma down others throats and killing anyone who disagrees... He recieved death threats, they spread aligations of child molestation, and to a man who probably spent several hundred thousands dollars to help better children's lives across the world, it was a deep personal attack, that almost led him to bite the bullet. He admits that he almost pulled the trigger several times. NONE of the things they stated were true. Not a one. They hated him because he was a Christian and a pastor, who wouldn't say what they wanted him to say.

So yah, I can sympathize with Jerry. Yeah, he stated some quake things, but the guy was probably constantly getting hit left and right. My Grandmother told me he use to be very loving, and she even told a story where a couple came to him and asked what they should do with their son, who chose to be gay. Jerry's words were, you should love him...

In short, Jerry Falwell wasn't always like the way he is pictured by special interest groups.

My Grandfather got out of the lime light, once they started attacking his children, so I can't imagine the nastiness Jerry was getting hit with before he died. I believe he was already suffering from depression due to his massive weight gain...

And even with some of Jerry's more quirky comments, what did he state... Homosexuality is a sin... abortion is a sin... Biblically speaking they are sin... then again... the Bible also states...

"For all have come short of the glory of God."

as the Bible states..

"For God so Loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him, might be saved."

The facts stand as this, Jerry Falwell did say some outrageous things, but none of you know or can even guess the bullshit he was going through. Then again, I know a lot of celebs that state equally outrageous things. Is it then justifiable to slame Christians, Conservatives, and our alike? I mean, even on this message board, many folks have proven themselves to be completely intolerant of my views and beliefs. Oddly enough almost every other thread in the religion column has to do with somebody's pet peeve with my religion, and with a selection of a few people, most give their conclusion, that Christians are thupid, so they are wrong...:D

Is Rosey O'Donall a bigot? By the definition used on this msg board she is. She is completely intolerant of Christain views, and often, as seen on the View, when you statements are questioned, she resorts to personal insults against her Christian co-host...

Do I think she is a bigot... No... She just doesn't like Christians, nor our beliefs.

[MorganaFang]

Falwell said really shitty things prior to being "attacked" by groups.

Yes being constantly bombarded by people being hateful only generates more unkind things in a person but that does not give them the right to be hateful back. Religious leaders are the role models of society, in most cases. If the issue was he was being so ferociously attacked he should have just removed himself and been the better man not generating any more hate.

That is hard, I know, but I like to believe Christianity in it's basic form teaches tolerance, if Falwell had not said and done the things he did I am highly dubious anyone would have come after him. He only perpetuated things anyways by having to "attack" those people back.

It's one thing to fight for what you believe in, but this man hated minorities, women's rights over their own bodies and homosexuals... Hell he even hated kids television shows and I really doubt Tinkie Winkie came after him and assaulted him with his purse so Falwell could be justified in saying crap about him.

[LV426]

So apparently that "turn the other cheek" was just a suggestion. As long as someone is hurling insults at you it's ok to be a bigot and inspire hatred towards others.

[Aeolus]

So apparently that "turn the other cheek" was just a suggestion. As long as someone is hurling insults at you it's ok to be a bigot and inspire hatred towards others.


I try to turn the cheek but I am probably not very successful. I challenge YOU to try and override the natural tendency to lash out when attacked for an extended period of time. People forget that Christians are human, too, and we make mistakes.