my views on christianity

[wickedly_torn]

look the main thing i would like to talk about here is the bible first off, whether God told him to or not, man created the bible, and its pretty much a story passed down with time being changed every now and then..right? on a second note did any one ever stop and think that with the rising of magic people became afraid so they had to make up this religion to keep people in thier place pretty much and by saying magic is evil and youll go to hell it scares people into thinking not to do it.right? i DO NOT mean to offend anyone these are clearly my own thoughts.

[Pickle Tickler]

First off, we don't even know if magic exists or not. Secondly, that's not really the point of Christianity, although that is a truth in the eyes of some Christians (such as my mom, for example). Plus, there is probably already a thread for this somewhere.

Welcome to Werewolf.com :)

[wickedly_torn]

First off, we don't even know if magic exists or not. Secondly, that's not really the point of Christianity, although that is a truth in the eyes of some Christians (such as my mom, for example). Plus, there is probably already a thread for this somewhere.

Welcome to Werewolf.com :)


oh ok well thanx for the reply!:)

[Aeolus]

Uh, nope, magic has been around for a while, I think that you are using a typical pagan outlook toward the early Roman Catholic Church as control freaks on witch hunts, though they were.

In any event, that is not the pinnacle of Christian belief and in fact plays a very small part. We are not to rely on supernatural forces outside of God. That is it. It has to do with the dark nature of beings and forces that are not of God, and it shows a lack of trust in Him.

Christians don't focus very much on attacking magic users anymore, at least not for the most part. They have an actual message to get across, you know.

[Tempest]

Uh, nope, magic has been around for a while...

And you know this for sure HOW?
Maybe in myth but I assume you are talking about "real magic"?
If so...





>.>

[Pickle Tickler]

I think that he did mean the theory of magic, Tempest.

Other than that misconception, most of what Aeolus said covered it pretty nicely. It's not really a bother anymore, but it is still somewhat considered a sign of a covenant with the Devil. Or else a being that is in the Devil's service.

[Aeolus]

I think that he did mean the theory of magic, Tempest.

Other than that misconception, most of what Aeolus said covered it pretty nicely. It's not really a bother anymore, but it is still somewhat considered a sign of a covenant with the Devil. Or else a being that is in the Devil's service.


Add to that modern folks' affixation with the devil and demonic forms of the idea of magic, and you have a good reason for Christians to feel somewhat apprehensive about the subject. In any case, it's not the focal point of our religion.

[DarkHunter]

look the main thing i would like to talk about here is the bible first off, whether God told him to or not, man created the bible, and its pretty much a story passed down with time being changed every now and then..right? on a second note did any one ever stop and think that with the rising of magic people became afraid so they had to make up this religion to keep people in thier place pretty much and by saying magic is evil and youll go to hell it scares people into thinking not to do it.right? i DO NOT mean to offend anyone these are clearly my own thoughts.

Waaaaaa someone doesn't approve of what I believe in. Lets rant about it. Waaaaaaa

[UNODRAGONE]

Even if the notions of magic have been around for a long time, it is one, unproven and two not that 'big and scary' to make the church or said bible have to compete with it

[DarkHunter]

Even if the notions of magic have been around for a long time, it is one, unproven and two not that 'big and scary' to make the church or said bible have to compete with it

To be fair, there was a tad bit of competition even in the Biblical stories (Baal and his followers versus the Big Man), but mainly all the competition consisted of the Church killing people. Of course, by this time, most of the beliefs in this sort of thing were either beyond the range of the Church, underground (sometimes disguised as Church functions actually), or trumped up in order to seize a person's land and property (see that wonderful chapter of history called the Knight's Templar).

Were they really threatened by Paganism and magic? Not until the past hundred years or so when the paranoia and laws against it relaxed or were thrown out. Not to say that there still isn't paranoia, but thats for another thread.

[Tempest]

Ok he was talking about theoretical magic.

Again, assumptions manage to make an ass out of "u" and....mptions :)

[sai-fujiwara]

Well, I don't really read the bible all that much, so I can't really say that I am a dictionary definition of a devote Christian.

But... I have to say that I believe in magic. The word, like all words, can be a little... misinterpreted. Lets say that magic is something that cannot be explained by science. Therefore, you could say that some works of God is magic. Or you could say that ghosts, demon possessions, and pagan beliefs that you can gain power from the forces around you is also magic.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but I am not one to condemn someone to hell just because they did something we cannot explain with science, evil or otherwise.

Now, about this thing were the bible can be changed... years ago, this would be true. But nowadays, I am certain that the original text is, perhaps not available to the general public, but is available to those who have the resources and skills to interpret them. This said, you could say that the Torah is less believable than the bible, seeing as part of it was transfered from person to person orally, and people's memories could have changed it. The Muslim's Koran is less likely to be misinterpreted or changed, though it could have been originally copied down wrong.

If people are that concerned about believing in something that could have been changed, why don't they take it up with the Almighty himself? I'm sure he would be more than willing to listen to anyone's complaints or questions.

As always,

Sai

P.S.: I'm not offended at all, wickedly_torn. I'm glad that you spoke your opinions. Just... use the shift button next time, would you please?

[GhostSong]

look the main thing i would like to talk about here is the bible first off, whether God told him to or not, man created the bible, and its pretty much a story passed down with time being changed every now and then..right? on a second note did any one ever stop and think that with the rising of magic people became afraid so they had to make up this religion to keep people in thier place pretty much and by saying magic is evil and youll go to hell it scares people into thinking not to do it.right? i DO NOT mean to offend anyone these are clearly my own thoughts.My first post and its in theology, gotta love it :)

Well, you gotta look at the history and define the terms. Religion is a construct of man, spirituality is in the individual. Meaning a man can be pious and spiritual, a Religion is nothing more than an organization and all organizations have methods and a want for control of some kind.

Magic is a fairly loose term as well. Before Monotheistic beliefs (Islam, Judaism and Christianity) magic was just a means of contacting the spirits or the gods. Anyone could do it, though usually the more potent magic was regulated to specialists like Shaman's or priests. Because well, human nature creates a hierarchy of leaders and subordinates. So when the monotheists walked up to pagans and learned that anyone could contact the higher powers their own religious specialists put the breaks on that mess. Since if everyone could do what they can, they loose their power and status.

Now there are a lot of Christian anthropologists who contest this but the simple fact is that those priests were not so pious and zealous and today's Christianity is laden with Paganism. Easter and Christmas are pagan rituals on the Solstice meant to contact the higher powers for a short winter and a prosperous harvest. Eggs have long since been a symbol of rebirth and Rabbits are tied in there symbolically too. So Easter isn't about Christ's resurrection any more. Not with all the rabbits and eggs. The Christmas tree originally was a ritual performed by the Celts. The tinsel is supposed to be intestine of a stag they drape over the branches. Even in the bible it doesn't put the day of Jesus's birth in December. What those missionaries did was just pick and choose bits of the natives religion to get them to sign up. Fairly devious if you ask me.

What gets me is that modern day Christianity and Catholicism is basically the same damned thing as witchcraft. In modern day Witchcraft you worship The Goddess. Under her are a pantheon of lesser spirits that represent bits of the world. Catholicism believes in Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior. Under him are Saints, that can be prayed to for miracles representing bits of the world. In magic you chant and light candles and focus on the spirit your contact. In modern Christianity and all of its off shoots you pray and light candles. Both creates a mental state where your reaching out and trying to contact an energy of some sort. Then when you toss in malignant forces vs. Satan and demons...its like a bad rip off really. Even the pentacle the witchcraft symbol of protection was used by the Christian's early on as a ward against evil...just like witches. Whats more, in the mythology, when Jesus was born the three wisemen that came visited him were Wizards. You can even see the word "Wise" in Wizard for god sakes. They brought him Frankenscence and Mir two objects valuable in Witchcraft traditions for their magical properties.

Don't even get me started on exorcisms :).

Modern day perception of religion is so tarnished by fictional things. 666 isn't the sign of the devil. When Julius Ceasar was the leader of Rome he exiled this guy who went on to write Dante's Inferno. If you break Ceasar's name down into numerological values it comes out to be 666. Hell is described as a place devoid of god. No fire. No demons. It was in that exiled pansy's writings did he create that image and the 9 rings represent the 9 senators of Rome's Republic.

The burning times a way to take power away from herbalist and healer women who went against the patriarchal regime that Christianity seems to love. They really love to regulate women as second class citizens. I find it funny when those same mid western house wives shake their head and condemn orthodox Islam.

Before I wrap this up its also important to talk about the lineage of Christianity. Its the third in the series. First came Islam. Yep, the same one that the terrorist follow. Their prophet was Mohammad. Islam really is a good religion. Judaism was next who said Mohammad wasn't a prophet but Abraham was. Their religion evolved from the source. Then came Jesus and the Christian's said "Oh yeah he's the only prophet and he's the son of god." and from there its all history. Its all been one up-men ship.

Really, hasn't all of human history?

[Aeolus]

My first post and its in theology, gotta love it :)



Magic is a fairly loose term as well. Before Monotheistic beliefs (Islam, Judaism and Christianity) magic was just a means of contacting the spirits or the gods. Anyone could do it, though usually the more potent magic was regulated to specialists like Shaman's or priests.

That's only true of European Religions, I believe. Most of those in the Middle East had very ornate religious systems and did not leave much power to every individual. They relied heavilly on priests and shamans.

Because well, human nature creates a hierarchy of leaders and subordinates. So when the monotheists walked up to pagans and learned that anyone could contact the higher powers their own religious specialists put the breaks on that mess. Since if everyone could do what they can, they loose their power and status.

Oh, but you see, that is where you are wrong. In Hebrew religion anyone can creat amulets that ward off evil spirits and perform other such rituals. Modern Protestant beliefs teach that all have the power of a priest, church is only necessary for the fellowship of believers, and a pastor teaches the congregation. One can easilly speak to God without the aid of a priest.

Easter and Christmas are pagan rituals on the Solstice meant to contact the higher powers for a short winter and a prosperous harvest. Eggs have long since been a symbol of rebirth and Rabbits are tied in there symbolically too. So Easter isn't about Christ's resurrection any more.
Easter on it's own was a ritualistic festival performed in the name of a fertillity goddess known as Ishtar. The fact it still persists in our culture is indeed very strange, but my guess would be that Christians attempted to counter this by commemorating Jesus' death on this day. In my own childhood, we are taught not to celebrat Easter, but Jesus' death and ressurection on the cross.

Not with all the rabbits and eggs. The Christmas tree originally was a ritual performed by the Celts. The tinsel is supposed to be intestine of a stag they drape over the branches. Even in the bible it doesn't put the day of Jesus's birth in December. What those missionaries did was just pick and choose bits of the natives religion to get them to sign up. Fairly devious if you ask me.

The modern idea of Christmas is in fact very non-Christian. It centers around material gain and a number of other things that are stricly against Christian belief systems. Christmas exists in a manner that we know it as because of the media's portrayal of what it should be like and the pressure to perform special Holiday 'rituals' such as increased consumerism. Again, most Christians teach that the only reason they celebrate on Christmas day is Jesus' birth. Most of what seculars know Christmas to be is entirely different from what Christians do and has little to do with the church's influence.

What gets me is that modern day Christianity and Catholicism is basically the same damned thing as witchcraft. In modern day Witchcraft you worship The Goddess. Under her are a pantheon of lesser spirits that represent bits of the world.

That sounds somewhat like Catholicism, but Protestants are strictly monotheistic. There are not patron saints in every form of Christianity.

Catholicism believes in Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior. Under him are Saints, that can be prayed to for miracles representing bits of the world. In magic you chant and light candles and focus on the spirit your contact. In modern Christianity and all of its off shoots you pray and light candles. Both creates a mental state where your reaching out and trying to contact an energy of some sort. Then when you toss in malignant forces vs. Satan and demons...its like a bad rip off really. Even the pentacle the witchcraft symbol of protection was used by the Christian's early on as a ward against evil...just like witches. Whats more, in the mythology, when Jesus was born the three wisemen that came visited him were Wizards. You can even see the word "Wise" in Wizard for god sakes. They brought him Frankenscence and Mir two objects valuable in Witchcraft traditions for their magical properties.

Yes, it is not a hidden fact that the wisemen were part of something besides Christianity. They were supposedly actively changing their beliefs, and they were simply offering what they could to the one being praised as the young Messiah. However it is notable that the other rituals you mentioned are Catholic, and not practiced by all other Christians.

Don't even get me started on exorcisms :).

Once again, it is true that all different spiritual systems have at one time or another developed their own methods for combating evil spirits. That is almost universal in any religion.


Modern day perception of religion is so tarnished by fictional things. 666 isn't the sign of the devil. When Julius Ceasar was the leader of Rome he exiled this guy who went on to write Dante's Inferno. If you break Ceasar's name down into numerological values it comes out to be 666. Hell is described as a place devoid of god. No fire. No demons. It was in that exiled pansy's writings did he create that image and the 9 rings represent the 9 senators of Rome's Republic.

Uh, you're right, but it's no secret. The later apocalyptic literature has a lot to do with the fall of the Roman Empire and the state that it thrust upon the Hebrews and other minority religions at the time.

Before I wrap this up its also important to talk about the lineage of Christianity. Its the third in the series. First came Islam. Yep, the same one that the terrorist follow. Their prophet was Mohammad. Islam really is a good religion. Judaism was next who said Mohammad wasn't a prophet but Abraham was. Their religion evolved from the source. Then came Jesus and the Christian's said "Oh yeah he's the only prophet and he's the son of god." and from there its all history. Its all been one up-men ship.

That is just plain flat out myth, right there. Hebrews were around LONG before Muhammed started his spiritual revolution.

[GhostSong]

Yeah, for the most part I was generalizing. Kind of writing it from the position of a mostly agnostic suburban white guy who hasn't really done much but scratched the surface. When you get into the individual sects, factions and other parts of the world then you get into the giant mess of magical traditions intermixing with monotheistic faiths and all that. An internet forum isn't really the greatest place to go into depth. :)

But for the most part your right, thanks Black Doctor.

(Whats up with the Scrubs icon's on this board? I'm not complaining, in fact I'm pretty sure I could be set up in one of those Clockwork Orange TV chairs and be perfectly happy watching that show for hours and hours.)

[Aeolus]

Yeah, for the most part I was generalizing. Kind of writing it from the position of a mostly agnostic suburban white guy who hasn't really done much but scratched the surface. When you get into the individual sects, factions and other parts of the world then you get into the giant mess of magical traditions intermixing with monotheistic faiths and all that. An internet forum isn't really the greatest place to go into depth. :)

But for the most part your right, thanks Black Doctor.

(Whats up with the Scrubs icon's on this board? I'm not complaining, in fact I'm pretty sure I could be set up in one of those Clockwork Orange TV chairs and be perfectly happy watching that show for hours and hours.)


I was going to ask the same thing. Someone wanted me to use this as my avatar, and so I did. No idea what is going on there. :(

[Necro Mortis]

Christians don't focus very much on attacking magic users anymore, at least not for the most part. They have an actual message to get across, you know.
What about the huge stink kicked up by Harry Potter? I do agree with the popular view nowadays, traditional magic or worshiping was demonized by the church and Christians can't STAND imagination to do with anything remotely supernatural unless it's someone dancing on water and spiking the drink at a bar mitzvah by turning the water jug into wine.

[Aeolus]

What about the huge stink kicked up by Harry Potter? I do agree with the popular view nowadays, traditional magic or worshiping was demonized by the church and Christians can't STAND imagination to do with anything remotely supernatural unless it's someone dancing on water and spiking the drink at a bar mitzvah by turning the water jug into wine.


Not all Christians were so opposed to the Novels, only a very intense minority. I actually know many avid readers of the series who are Christian. I have already explained why exactly Christians have developed opposition to occultist traditions, and that is because they believe that God is the one who they should be relying on, not magic, and also because of the fact that there are less-than-positive forms of the occult, sometimes involving a seeming alliance with darker powers. I'm sure that the church did demonize spellcasters quite frequently during the times of more zealous crusaders, but keep in mind some of the older magical traditions were just as threatening to the people around them at the time as some Christians were.

[Necro Mortis]

I'm sure that the church did demonize spellcasters quite frequently during the times of more zealous crusaders, but keep in mind some of the older magical traditions were just as threatening to the people around them at the time as some Christians were.

I don't remember hundreds maybe thousands of Christians being burnt at the stake by supposed Witches. What traditions are these? I can't think of any.

[Aeolus]

I don't remember hundreds maybe thousands of Christians being burnt at the stake by supposed Witches. What traditions are these? I can't think of any.

Uh, there were sporadic persecutions of Christians performed by the pagan Roman government that would fit that description. They weren't witches, but they helped originate plenty of the occult practices we see now and they also helped form the literary frame that would be used by Fantasy authors much later on.

[Necro Mortis]

Uh, there were sporadic persecutions of Christians performed by the pagan Roman government that would fit that description. They weren't witches, but they helped originate plenty of the occult practices we see now and they also helped form the literary frame that would be used by Fantasy authors much later on.

A little different from what I meant but point taken all the same. literary frame? Occult practices? If you have any more info or links to back this I would be very intrigued to follow it up

[Aeolus]

A little different from what I meant but point taken all the same. literary frame? Occult practices? If you have any more info or links to back this I would be very intrigued to follow it up

Well, it should be obvious that Fantasy novelists have Greek Mythological influences; they use the names of some of the deities and creatures. As for modern occult practices, many neopagans take direct belief in old deities, though modern pagan and mystical religions are ammalgamations of several ancient pantheons and traditions. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism) is more on that, I'll try to find more in a bit, have to go eat, though.

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy) is something on mythology in modern fantasy tales.

I know they are both wikipedia, but I will get more when I have more time.

[Necro Mortis]

Well, it should be obvious that Fantasy novelists have Greek Mythological influences; they use the names of some of the deities and creatures. As for modern occult practices, many neopagans take direct belief in old deities, though modern pagan and mystical religions are ammalgamations of several ancient pantheons and traditions. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism) is more on that, I'll try to find more in a bit, have to go eat, though.

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy) is something on mythology in modern fantasy tales.

I know they are both wikipedia, but I will get more when I have more time.

Thanks, but as you know, the Greeks are different from Romans.
Just nit picking = P

[LV426]

I think this says it quite eloquently...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fDp7pkEcJVQ

[Aeolus]

I think this says it quite eloquently...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fDp7pkEcJVQ

I know that this thread has to do with someone's opinion of a belief system, but I think that there were general subjects to it, and this really doesn't have anything to do with either of those.

Also, I explained to you why this analogy just doesn't work, unfortunately you weren't listening. The whole thing relies on the similarity to Christians being Christians because of a percieved reward/punishment. However, all humans make decisions based on the consequences of an action, so unless you have a problem with anyone making any decision on a basis of whether or not they will be punished or rewarded, then I don't see the point.