My Atheistic Rant

[Necro Mortis]

Can anyone find more examples of this (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0028/0028_01.asp) kind of thing?
I find it hilarious.
Sorry, I just can't stand the way Christianity demonises things. Maybe I'm just not meant to follow a religion but the way Christianity sometimes goes about things in such a pig headed and arrogant way, it just grinds my gears.
Also, I love the way they pop up sites like these, this one is called the ChildCare Action Project (http://www.capalert.com/capreports/) which is a personal favourite of mine. It's hilarious. I would have thought it a real joke if not for the fact they replied to an e-mail I sent them. They rate films to their own scale like traffic lights, from green to red.
Fair enough, they rate films and inform helpless parents about the content so they can decide wether or not to let their children see these mind warping hetaeristic films but let me give you an example.

Wallace and Gromit in the Curse of the Were-Rabbit. I thought it was a decent film and more than suitable for children but CAP thought:

Wallace and Gromit in the Curse of the Were-Rabbit starts off appearing much like the also British films of Harry Potter with a flair that reeks of sorcery and witchcraft. But I guess that was to set the mood expected of the unholy nature of lycanthropy.

Seriously, it's fun to think of the most innocent film you can and see how they rate it. Alternatively, look up the most horrific film you can think of and see how long the list of sins are. You might be surprised.

[Aeolus]

Can anyone find more examples of this (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0028/0028_01.asp) kind of thing?
I find it hilarious.
Sorry, I just can't stand the way Christianity demonises things. Maybe I'm just not meant to follow a religion but the way Christianity sometimes goes about things in such a pig headed and arrogant way, it just grinds my gears.
Also, I love the way they pop up sites like these, this one is called the ChildCare Action Project (http://www.capalert.com/capreports/) which is a personal favourite of mine. It's hilarious. I would have thought it a real joke if not for the fact they replied to an e-mail I sent them. They rate films to their own scale like traffic lights, from green to red.
Fair enough, they rate films and inform helpless parents about the content so they can decide wether or not to let their children see these mind warping hetaeristic films but let me give you an example.

Wallace and Gromit in the Curse of the Were-Rabbit. I thought it was a decent film and more than suitable for children but CAP thought:

Wallace and Gromit in the Curse of the Were-Rabbit starts off appearing much like the also British films of Harry Potter with a flair that reeks of sorcery and witchcraft. But I guess that was to set the mood expected of the unholy nature of lycanthropy.

Seriously, it's fun to think of the most innocent film you can and see how they rate it. Alternatively, look up the most horrific film you can think of and see how long the list of sins are. You might be surprised.


Oh, you think Chick is bad? He's only one (http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/2003/occult-rpg.htm)

Chick is moderate compared to some religious individuals. However, not all Christians are anywhere near this legalistic, and many actually find Chick's tracts fairly repulsive. People like Chick do not represent the entire body of Christians, or even so much as one denomination.

Is this what has you on your aggravating little crusade?

[Necro Mortis]

Is this what has you on your aggravating little crusade?

That and all the other Anal crap they try and force down peoples throats.

[Tempest]

lol...I looked up X-Men, one of my favorite movies.

Key to the manifestation of the powers of the mutants was their puberty, as if we would expect anything else of modern entertainment. It couldn't be electric shock, a head injury, or birth on another planet like a regular super heroes and super villains -- it had to be puberty.

Oh noes, puberty!!11 We might have to actually tell little Jonny how the world REALLY works instead of telling him babies come from storks!

[Necro Mortis]

heh, puberty, the root of mutation!

Wanton Violence/Crime (W):
WWF style violence
skeletons and body parts
graphic animal attacks
bluebird exploding due to high pitched note
defensive fighting
impalement with an arrow
knife blade to throat threat
dragon eating a character
inflation of a snake by mouth to make an animal shaped balloon
torture of a character (gingerbread man)
graphic expressions

Impudence/Hate (I)(1) (http://www.capalert.com/capreports/shrek.htm#footnote%2 01):
flatulence
persecution based on outward appearance
five uses of the three/four letter word vocabulary
urinating on a campfire
crotch injury with a crunch
bathing in what appears to be manure (which could conveniently be thought of as mud)

Sex/Homosexuality (S):
brief rear male nudity, twice
sexual innuendo
dragon kissing the bare bottom of *****

Drugs/Alcohol (D):
drinking

Offense to God (O)(2) (http://www.capalert.com/capreports/shrek.htm#footnote%2 02):
two uses of God's name in vain but without the four letter expletive

Try and guess what film this is!

[DarkWolf]

Shrek.

I am so glad my parents aren't religious. If this CAP crap was anything to go by or taken seriously then the only thing people are allowed to watch would be Sesame Street. Then again, I'm sure they'd find fault with even that.

I am so very, immeasurably, pleased to not be religious or give a care about some deity - I can actually enjoy good movies then.

[Necro Mortis]

Shrek.

If this CAP crap was anything to go by or taken seriously then the only thing people are allowed to watch would be Sesame Street. Then again, I'm sure they'd find fault with even that.

You're kidding, right?
With all those anthropomorphic loons runing around? Big bird would be burned for being the work of satan, as would snuffalufagus and Kermit and even miss piggy.
It all reeks of witchcraft to me!

[Hitodama]

Ooohh! We can make a game outta this!

Wanton Violence/Crime (W):

firearm threats, many, once to the head
threats of murder with battery acid
strong-arming
attempted murder by explosion, multiple
attempted murder by gunfire, many
attempted murder by choking
gun battles
extortion
entrapment
impersonating a police officer
car theft
threat with life to perform
vehicular assault
action violence
admission of murders
fighting
death by great fall

Impudence/Hate (I)(1):

51 uses of the three/four letter word vocabulary
congratulating divorce

Sex/Homosexuality (S):

excessive cleavage
dressing to maximize the female form and/or skin exposure
sexual comments, talk, innuendo
neon nudity
adults in underwear
crude talk
anatomical references
suggestive eye movement
sexual suggestions, multiple
vulgar gesture
genital humor
offers of sexual favor
much rear female nudity
bending over "humor"

Drugs/Alcohol (D):

smoking
drinking

Offense to God (O)(2):

mockery of religion
reincarnation as routine
one use of God's name in vain with the four letter expletive and six without

Murder/Suicide (M)(3):

gunfire murders, five

These guys...They just don't understand the modern world, and heres a scary thought...What if one of these looneys was elected El-prisidente?

[WareW-Believer]

What if one of these looneys was elected El-prisidente?
I sence an overthrow of the government then.

I noticed American Grafiti isn't on the list. It must be a good movie then.

The Extraordinary League of Gentleman:

Wanton Violence/Crime (W)
action violence, frequent, some intense
wanton destruction to intimidate
orders to kill, repeatedly
gunfire to kill, intense, repeatedly, many with multiple firearms
impalement deaths, some graphic
gunfire to injure
threats by multiple firearms, repeatedly
many deaths by gunfire, blade, explosion, incineration and other means, some graphic
long fight sequences, repeatedly
seeing a man riddled through with auto gunfire with no consequences, graphic
knife at woman's throat
gun battles, many
reckless gunfire
beast violence
action violence, intense, repeatedly
knife impalement
attempted murder, repeatedly
graphic decay of human flesh

Impudence/Hate (I)
seven uses of the three/four letter word vocabulary
excusing piracy
lust for blood

Sexual Immorality (S)
open face kissing (Oh no! Kissing!)
sexual innuendo, including as threat of rape
inappropriate touch

Drugs/Alcohol (D):
drinking (Casual)

Offense to God (O)
ethereal beast goading the living
four uses of God's name in vain without the four letter expletive
miraculous healing of graphic injuries that would be fatal, repeatedly
vampirism
death by vampirism
vampirism to kill
immortality
shape shifting transformations, repeatedly, some graphic
idolatry
witchcraft and seeking after it

Murder/Suicide (M)
suicide by poison
murder by tank run-over
gunfire murder, many
multiple murder by explosion
stabbing murder

[Necro Mortis]

open face kissing (Oh no! Kissing!)

Not just ANY kissing, Open face kissing

[LV426]

101 Dalmatians

COMMENT: The central theme was about a bad girl's desire to kill dogs to get their coats. Animals have been used to clothe humans for thousands of years. But what made objective analysis of this movie difficult was the dogs were well personified with human personality traits by the script writers and choreographers, thus giving the viewer the sense that to kill the dogs would be akin to killing human babies. While many people indeed seem to value their dogs more than humans, we cannot permit elevatation of the dog to human status. God clearly gave us dominion over the beasts of the earth. If we were to elevate the dog to human status, we would indeed be lowering the human to the dog level. Thus, I cannot justify derating the movie based on plotting to kill dogs. It would be different if the dogs were actually killed in the movie. But please realize that while God has given us dominion over the beasts of the earth, i.e., they are here for our use, the arey NOT here for us to abuse!

Other examples of unacceptable behavior included:

* portrayal of a child having the desire to annihilate as a normal and acceptable desire
* rule by fear and intimidation
* gross examination of a dog to determine its gender
* masked violence (hearing the sounds after display of activities which logically end in violence)
* abduction and imprisonment to control and to gain unlawful entry
* firey endangerment of humans
* display of electric shock to private regions



Sigh!

[YoungFang]

Heheh Scary Movie gets 0.

[Tempest]

Thus, I cannot justify derating the movie based on plotting to kill dogs.

CAP promotes puppy slaying!! :eek:

The Lion King:

Wanton Violence/Crime (W)

attempted eating of animal character
threat of violence, repeatedly
coercing to kill
planning murder
imagery of nazi-esque servitude
physical assault, repeatedly
order to kill
threat to kill
animal attack to kill, repeatedly
trickery to kill
fight to the death
animal killing

Impudence/Hate (I)

deceit with the young, betrayal, repeatedly
adolescent lie to mother
sneaking to defy parents
song of freedom from accountability
defiance of parental authority endangering one's own health and the health of another
lies, repeatedly, especially to deflect accountability and to falsely place guilt
violence during protective actions
"It's to die for"
coaching to run away
gross-out humor: eating insects
"You don't deserve to live"

Sexual Immorality (S)

Homosexual suggestion by "Want me to dress in drag?"

Drugs/Alcohol (D):

none noted

Offense to God (O)

"circle of life" - we all will die once and live twice, but not in reincarnation or the ecological cycle
use of "gene pool" to suggest evolution
shamanism/witchcraft, repeatedly
astrology
"fool" [Matt. 5:22]
image of Zen meditation
consulting the dead
five uses of Jesus' name in vain

Murder/Suicide (M)

murder of character




This was a "red light" movie (rated G-13, meaning a PG-13 equivilant movie).... The Lion King....
I have to wonder how these people watch movies. Do they sit on their couch with perfect stature and a pen and paper? And when there's like a car chase or something, do they write notes down with a frown and a shake of the head and don't actually get into the movie at all? Seriously what is wrong with these people? They've denied themselves any sort of enjoyment, or it seems that way.

[J.L.R.]

My goodness if these "Christians" keep going at it like this, they might actually end up banning the Bible! :D

[BlackRosePhantom]

Homosexual suggestion by "Want me to dress in drag?"

And how is dressing in drag was a homosexual behavior? Wow, these bastards are lower than I thought (and I thought they were very low to begin with).

[Necro Mortis]

I'm glad so many people share my view.

Transformers got a zero too.

Wanton Violence/Crime (W)
military ordnance
action violence, many, of varying intensities
police gunfire
massive defensive gunfire
theft
traffic chaos with endangerment
vehicular assault
admission of theft
firearm threats, repeatedly
attempted murder
physical assault
multiple talk of sacrificial suicide
multiple deaths in air battle

Impudence/Hate (I)
20 uses of the three/four letter word vocabulary, 8 of them by teens
two uses of the most foul of the foul words
massive tattoos
script reference in a PG-13 film requiring knowledge of an R-rated film
teen denying what he had done
lie
facial piercing
trespassing, twice
portrayal of police as idiots
cruel deceit
dog urination
teen deception
teen use of situation ambiguity as chance to use lies as defense of his wrongdoing
"Parents ... very irritating"
extortion
teens with familiarity with R-rated films

Sexual Immorality (S)
vulgar posture
porn pics in teen's room
camera angle to force viewer on private parts
rude gaze
sex request innuendo
dressing to maximize the female form and/or skin exposure
innuendo re: intercourse, repeatedly
below navel skin threatening exposure of that which follows, repeatedly
pose to force viewer on private parts
excessive cleavage, repeatedly
teen in underwear
sexual reference
sex reference and talk re: masturbation
parents expressing joy upon finding a girl in their boy's bedroom
adult in underwear
series of verbal threats to include sexual innuendo
teen girl lying atop a teen boy (clothed) making out

Drugs/Alcohol (D):
none noted

Offense to God (O)
24 uses of God's name in vain without the four letter expletive, 19 of them by a teen
insult of Jesus (counterfeit use of WWJD)

Murder/Suicide (M)
impalement murder, three

[LV426]

(counterfeit use of WWJD)


LMAO

[J.L.R.]

In reality these people have little to do with Christianity as they do using the Bible as a pittiful foundation for their own freakish views of what we should and should not watch.

Even Chronicles of Narnia got a -100 because it depicted saytrs, talking animals, and violence... I guess these folks were NEVER read bed time stories and must be quite resentful to the world. It is really sad.

These are the people that would probably state that the Passion of the Christ would be suitible for children to watch but not that horrid Wallace and Gromit.

In a word that sums up my entire feelings...
Mormons... er... Morons! :D

[Keltzon Mar'thik]

LOL

Wow guys. I am Catholic, and I just gotta say:

That website is the biggest load of bull**** I have ever seen. I mean, I've heard of crazies...but man, this just takes the cake. Anchorman a 26? TRANSFORMERS GOT A ZERO? I WATCHED THAT MOVIE THREE TIMES!

I have come to the only logical conclusion: The editors have never been laid.

[Pickle Tickler]

LOL

Wow guys. I am Catholic, and I just gotta say:

That website is the biggest load of bull**** I have ever seen. I mean, I've heard of crazies...but man, this just takes the cake. Anchorman a 26? TRANSFORMERS GOT A ZERO? I WATCHED THAT MOVIE THREE TIMES!

I have come to the only logical conclusion: The editors have never been laid.

EVER.

[DarkHunter]

In a word that sums up my entire feelings...
Mormons... er... Morons! :D

I've seen nicer Mormons than this. This is more like those lovely folks at Exposingsatanism.org

[J.L.R.]

I've seen nicer Mormons than this. This is more like those lovely folks at Exposingsatanism.org

Dude I've seen nicer rabid dogs than this guy... :P

With all his ranting, I'm surprised he even owns a tv vcr, dvd, or anything electronic as electricity is of the devil. :D

[BCvonRayfus]

I can't believe how you're all taking this!! I hope you all realize that anybody who watches Disney movies is going straight to the flaming depths of Hell!!! It CLEARLY states that in the book of Matthew!





















:D

[BCvonRayfus]

This should be moved to the humor section; as sad as this is to me -as a Christian- it's actually pretty amusing...

[Keltzon Mar'thik]

He does have a section located on his home page where he talks about why he writes what he writes. Something like "You make other Christians look bad" or some sort of title...

And to tell the truth, some of it makes sense I suppose. Well, in order for his arguments to make sense, you kinda already have to be a Christian, with similar viewpoints as him. If you are a non-believer, then yeah: He's a complete wack-job.

[Necro Mortis]

This should be moved to the humor section; as sad as this is to me -as a Christian- it's actually pretty amusing...

Although it is amusing I don't want this moved to humor. My rant is about religion and should be treated thus.

[Pickle Tickler]

He does have a section located on his home page where he talks about why he writes what he writes. Something like "You make other Christians look bad" or some sort of title...

And to tell the truth, some of it makes sense I suppose. Well, in order for his arguments to make sense, you kinda already have to be a Christian, with similar viewpoints as him. If you are a non-believer, then yeah: He's a complete wack-job.

I'm a Christian, and this guy IS a complete wack-job. He's friggin' pyscho. Seriously, if kids weren't exposed to this kind of thing, they wouldn't know how to handle it the minute they were exposed to the real world.

My kids will know what the proper names for all of their body parts are, and all the cuss words (fluently, of course) by the time they are three. After then, when they can think about whether or not they want to use them, it's up to them.

[Cheater388]

With journalistic freedom and/or free speech, the minute I saw this thread, I wanted to see if I could find a way around it so that producers could request a deletion of an article reviewing their movie because of loss of sales of that movie.

Could Someone PM me a website with the general book of American rules on it? It gets too complicated with all the states having different sets of rules.

I'm just thinking I could try, even if I don't know much about this that well.

[J.L.R.]

Although it is amusing I don't want this moved to humor. My rant is about religion and should be treated thus.

I don't see how your complaint has anything to do with real Christianity or religion for that matter, as it has to do with this bozo's abuse of religion as a whole.

[Necro Mortis]

I don't see how your complaint has anything to do with real Christianity or religion for that matter, as it has to do with this bozo's abuse of religion as a whole.

I direct you to my first post, this thread isn't just about the CAP website.

Can anyone find more examples of this (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0028/0028_01.asp) kind of thing?
I find it hilarious.
Sorry, I just can't stand the way Christianity demonises things. Maybe I'm just not meant to follow a religion but the way Christianity sometimes goes about things in such a pig headed and arrogant way, it just grinds my gears.


I said I can't stand the way Christianity demonises things. It may have been more accurate to say the way some Christian fanatics demonise things.
What do you mean it has nothing to do with religion? It has EVERYTHING to do with religion or more accuratley, I suppose Christian propaganda.

[J.L.R.]

I direct you to my first post, this thread isn't just about the CAP website.



I said I can't stand the way Christianity demonises things. It may have been more accurate to say the way some Christian fanatics demonise things.
What do you mean it has nothing to do with religion? It has EVERYTHING to do with religion or more accuratley, I suppose Christian propaganda.

However, you're rant has little to do with Christianity as a religion, as it does some of the more crazy methods some of its adherents use to show their faith, or lack there of.

The Bible doesn't demonize anything. It DOES, however state what is right or wrong. If you disagree that is your choice.

In Christianity we do have people who try to show how "godly" they are by having the biggest mouth and rant endless about pointless things, such as Harry Potter, fantasy movies in general, and or liking or owning snakes is of the devil... That has little to do with the Bible, and more to do with those people not having enough grounding in their own religion to look out their door.

Think of it this way, it was Scandinavian Christians who first recorded down the Norse mythology (Norse Mythology: A History). They realized that their mother religion would be wiped out had somebody not recorded it. They did so. If the religion as a whole demanded them to wipe out all traces of their culture, as Islam does once it invades another culture, we would not have Norse legends today.

The fact is, I don't see why this message board is so anti Christian. If you want to gripe about religions gone bad, you should look more closely at Islam then. You don't see Christians blowing themselves up and murdering countless hundreds of people do you? No... The attrocities of the Ottoman Empire far drwarf any Roman Catholic conquest or inquisition. In fact it is estimated that hundreds of millions have died through history due to the abuse of Mohammed's Quran... (Sword of the Prophet). When you consider that an estimate of a little over hundred thousand died at the bloody hands of evil men using the guise of Christianity.

Or what about Atheists... Let's not start on the attrocities of the Atheist push through Russia under the banner of Communism. They believed that religion was a fundamental evil as well, and they murdered countless thousands if not more for practicing religion. Or what about China and its horrific massacers of its own people for protesting its Non-Religious-non freedom for that matter, views. Or what about early Darwinists who massacred thousands of aboriganies in Australia believing they were subhuman and not quite up to evolutionary standards with modern men?

If that is not enough we could go back to the Mayan Empire who made human sacrifice and blood sport a daily event, just like you would watch a sitcom, or the Romans who butchered countless thousands during their reign of power. Shoot, even Nero bragged about lighting the streets of Rome with the bodies of Christians he'd set on fire.

A bad person is a bad person, regardless of religion, Athiest included. Bad people are bad people. You bitch about Christian propagunda like it is a vile virus, and yet look at all the terrible things, just on this board that has been said about the Bible and Christianity in general. Much of which is unfounded, and or simply put stupid.

I tell you right now, if I had an anti-wicca, (or whatever other religion rant) I would be crucified, however I know in Whom I believe, so I simply don't care, nor do I want to waist my time.

When I hear people bashing Christians constantly, I begin to wonder if they themselves are conflicted within.

Sure you may not like what somebody says, but as I frankly put, sometimes it has little to do with an actual belief, than that person's own prejudice.

[Keltzon Mar'thik]

Nicely put sir, and I think I want to run down the median on this...

This post does seem like it was originally meant to bash Christianity, while giving a prime example of an arrogant fanatic to bolster the insult. And rightly so. This group of people is not what most Christians are like, but unfortunately, they are there. So before anyone gets angry about this counter-argument, understand that this thread was not specifically targeting the CAP website. The thread-starter said it himself.

Pickle Tickler...there is a fine line between being tolerant and being stupid. I'm not saying you're stupid; I'm saying that teaching young children swear words at age three and teaching them about sex is NOT in any way a good thing. Especially as a Christian. There are a few things up to interpretation in the Bible, such as the idea of sex before marriage. Even though I'm Catholic, I don't believe in sex being a sin, as long as you actually care for the person, and love them for more than just the sex or their body. What will you be teaching your children? Be careful when you get around to it. There are a lot of not-so-sincere people out there. But once you have children yourself, I'm sure you'll be able to understand a little bit better why parents try to protect their kids.

Okay, so it's morning, so I can't think of anything else to say... >.<

[Necro Mortis]

The reason why I have focused on Christianity the most is because of my original point. Probably due more to the fact I live in a Christian country and I do have this kind of thing thrust at me a lot. Why should I comment on other religions? I was focusing on Christianity because I probably know more about it than another religion so it would be foolish of me to start flaming religions which I have little or no contact with, it would be irrelevant. And surely it’s up to me if I bash a religion or not? It’s up to people like you to defend it and not get pissy about it.

I thought the way some people show their religion DID have to do with, well, religion. Anyway, these people aren’t trying to show off how devout they are, they’re trying to influence, instruct and guide people to be better ‘Christians’. The way they go about it, I find laughable, but these aren’t the only examples I’ve seen of this kind of thing.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t despise Christianity or Christians but I do have a problem with how narrow-minded they can be as well as their methods of doing so. There have been SO many occasions where I get incredibly frustrated because having an argument with a religious person ends up with them saying ‘It’s just a matter of faith’. Good for you for having faith but DAMN IT give me something justifiable, don’t just use the omnipotent impotent excuse that ‘God dunnit!’.

You bring up lots of examples of massacres that religion has caused and then examples of atheistic slaughter. I am not condoning the fact that it was wrong but you cannot deny that this killing was substantially less than is caused by the presence of any religion. Even the holocaust came down to one groups view on religion. The crusades were pretty brutal too but I don’t want to start a flame war about who killed who.

Since I was young I have had to sing Christian songs in school and the ‘Religious Education’ classes were only about the bible and the promotion of Christianity with things like Chick so yeah, maybe you have a point that I do have some internal conflict about it, can you blame me? For some reason when I see people preaching about anything I have nothing but contempt for them. I’m glad that they feel so passionate about their religion they feel the need to stand in the street and hand out leaflets to people but I just get pissed off. Who wants to hear them spout off about something which happened so long ago that we should now judge ourselves and others with. Maybe it’s just because I don’t ‘get it’. What is the appeal to religion anyway? Is it comfort that others around you are worshiping the same deity? Is it the comforting thought of there being an afterlife or maybe people just don’t wanna believe that they have evolved from monkeys? Perhaps you just want a name behind that little voice in your head telling you what’s wrong or right.
As much as people like to preach their religion I like to preach my lack of it. I may one day find a religion I can agree with, maybe, but until I give in and go mainstream I want to live my life by rules that I have put in place due to my morals, not that of a particular deity.

I am tolerant of Religion but that doesn’t mean I can’t speak up now and then. After all, religious charities and organisations do a huge amount of good all over the world so they can’t be all bad. Can they? ;)

[sai-fujiwara]

Think of it this way, it was Scandinavian Christians who first recorded down the Norse mythology (Norse Mythology: A History). They realized that their mother religion would be wiped out had somebody not recorded it. They did so. If the religion as a whole demanded them to wipe out all traces of their culture, as Islam does once it invades another culture, we would not have Norse legends today.
*Thanks her Norse ancestors for doing this*

Even though I'm Catholic, I don't believe in sex being a sin, as long as you actually care for the person, and love them for more than just the sex or their body.
Umm... No one has ever said that sex was a sin. It is an "abomination" to have sex before marriage, because really there are way too many risks involved in it. I mean, if you get pregnant, then the person you had sex with leaves you or vise versa, then it is wrong, because you two never really loved each other in the first place. My mom would rather me have sex when I marry, and so would my dad. But my parents are understanding enough to know that if I do have sex before marriage, then they would rather it be with a condom.

(As a side note- Endros, do what my dad did. When your kid goes to school, teach your child every bad word there is and its meaning, and explain to them why it is bad to say these words. My dad didn't do it with me, alas, I had to learn through trial and error. ;))

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t despise Christianity or Christians but I do have a problem with how narrow-minded they can be as well as their methods of doing so. There have been SO many occasions where I get incredibly frustrated because having an argument with a religious person ends up with them saying ‘It’s just a matter of faith’. Good for you for having faith but DAMN IT give me something justifiable, don’t just use the omnipotent impotent excuse that ‘God dunnit!’.
Yes, there is a lot of narrow mindedness about Christians. Like for instance, I once visited several churches in a racist, redneck area. One church insulted my mom and dad for not being officers in the military, and thus saying that they didn't know squat because of this sad fact. Another church denied befriending me because I went to a rival school, which I despised.

Its not just there. I can count many reasons why some Christians are narrow minded and use the bible (or half of it) to defend their own claims, but omit the other part that says that what they are doing is wrong.

You do have to admit, this happens in every religion, in every country. I'm thinking that it is just human nature to be narrow minded when it comes to something you really believe in.

(I do have to admit, I hate it when Christians declare that the United States was founded on Christianity. Goddammit, the hell it was! The United States of America was founded on freedoms (including freedom of religion) and on capitalism. NO Christianity. They might get that from the laws, but for god's sake, it was philosopher's views and beliefs that we all born with our own rights that caused these laws to be made (among other things), along with the fact that if we do not agree with our government, we shouldn't be held back by laws to protest.

*little Christian's rant about Christianity*)

[Keltzon Mar'thik]

Umm... No one has ever said that sex was a sin.

Heh, I know, this is going somewhere off the main topic, but whatever! These are all good topics. In a Christian sense, the Bible teaches that sex is used to procreate-it is in fact one of the two reasons we are to have sex. The other reason? To fully commit yourself to your "other half", in both body and soul. To have sex before marrying your one true love is considered committing adultery, one of the ten commandments that never should be broken. However, I believe that if you truly love the woman, then anyone has a right to share a piece of their soul. Yes, this belief is highly contestable and a bit shaky, but from what I know of the Bible, my viewpoint on sex is not against God's will.

I do have to admit, I hate it when Christians declare that the United States was founded on Christianity. Goddammit, the hell it was! The United States of America was founded on freedoms (including freedom of religion) and on capitalism. NO Christianity. They might get that from the laws, but for god's sake, it was philosopher's views and beliefs that we all born with our own rights that caused these laws to be made (among other things), along with the fact that if we do not agree with our government, we shouldn't be held back by laws to protest.


Yes, I know, I must attempt to be one of those Christians who protests this. The United States was founded by PURITANS. These men wanted a nation where people can live free of the evils of monarchism or hierarchy or whatever it's called. The founding fathers of our nation were Christians, hence the blessing of "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. I know a lot of people are protesting those words today, calling it an insult. My usual response is, "Well, our government has been working for years now, and it was founded by Christianity. We've done everything we can to make your decisions 'free' to choose when it comes to religion. Don't ever ask us to change ours. It's our country. You don't like it? Leave."
A bit pig-headed? Probably. But it's also the truth. And honestly, it's not a big deal.

Necro, in response to "What is the appeal to religion?"

I didn't choose Catholicism when I was younger. I was put through classes like yourself. And up until I was about 16, I had a believe in God, but the doubt was still there. The story is horribly long, and a bit too much for some people to hear (aka they don't believe me), but I can tell you this: I know God exists. It's a knowledge and no longer a belief for me. And I agree with you: The idea of a belief in something you can't see, hear, smell, touch...a bit too unreal. I found my answer though, because I went looking. As the phrase is put, God won't come knocking on your door, especially when you won't get up to answer it (insert Jehova's Witness joke here). You have to search for him. And nowadays, sadly, it is WAY too hard to do that.

[Tempest]

I'm saying that teaching young children swear words at age three and teaching them about sex is NOT in any way a good thing.

Ok, first of all, your kids will likely hear every swear word in the book by the end of their first week of school. When I was 4, I swore at my mom and really had no idea what the word meant. I think it's reasonable to tell your kids these words before they hear it from someone else, and let them know that they aren't words they should use because they're bad (or whatever you want to say to discourage your kid from running around saying 'fuck you'...yes this does happen I've seen it). And about sex, why on earth is that wrong to tell your kid about? Do you think a better solution would be to tell them some fantasy story about where babies come from, then have them get laughed at in school because they don't know what sex is? I really don't understand what this sex taboo thing is for. Do you honestly think that just because kids are armed with knowledge of the human body that they are going to go out and be little sluts at age 12? More likely they will do that if you never talk to them about it. My parents never hid sex from me, I always knew the truth and I was honestly amazed when I found that some kids had no idea how babies were made.

As for this whole "sex before marriage" thing, I really don't get why Christians find that this is wrong either. Sex is not just for making babies and if you think that the only other reason it's for is to "share your soul" with your partner (give me a break) well you're lying to yourself. Most people have sex because it's enjoyable. And really, if God did not want us to have sex for reasons other than making babies why would He make it so good? I won't deny that sex definately creates a bond (in most cases, some people sleep around so much that they seemingly don't feel anything for the ones they have sex with), but this whole "sharing your soul" crap makes me sick. Is that what you're thinking about when you have sex? "Oh wow, honey, I really feel close to you now! Like we're sharing the same soul!" *puke* In my opinion there is absolutely nothing wrong with having sex before marriage and if you are at all smart, you will accept that your kid will, almost definately, get laid before they even propose. I was very very "no sex until marriage" until I found someone that I loved. I was ready, and I have no regrets over it, even though I'm no longer with him and frankly I hate him. To me and I believe many women, losing my virginity was extremely painful, and had I waited until the wedding night to do it, I would never have enjoyed myself. Plus I now know what I like and don't like and am more skilled at pleasing my partner. Justify abstinence for me. That adultery theory is bullcrap. How do you know when you've met your "one true love" if such a thing exists? I've fallen in love with everyone I've dated, fully head over heals. Hell even if I get a ring before having sex, there is still the possibility of divorcing and remarrying. Will you go to hell for commiting adultery then?
I dislike many Christians because many of them hold these super conservative, nonsensical, impractical morals that just are outdated. Sorry but you can teach your kid abstinece until marriage and hide sex from them until your death, but you know what? It's not gonna change them and if they decide that they want to have sex, they're gonna do it. Seriously, you're talking to the girl who went through modern "sex ed" which basically is just "don't have sex it's bad mmmmk??".
Get with the times. And please, get realistic.

The founding fathers of our nation were Christians, hence the blessing of "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. I know a lot of people are protesting those words today, calling it an insult. My usual response is, "Well, our government has been working for years now, and it was founded by Christianity. We've done everything we can to make your decisions 'free' to choose when it comes to religion. Don't ever ask us to change ours. It's our country. You don't like it? Leave."


Wow this is another reason I really don't like Christians. You deny people's concerns with having their children, whom they are chosing to raise atheist, HAVING to say "under God" every day in school? And not only do you deny it but you use the idiotic excuse "well our government is working and it was founded on Christianity so respect that and if you don't like it get out of America." WOW. That's intelligence right there. You've done everything to make our decisions "free" when it comes to religion....but we aren't giving in on "under God"!!!! Give me a break. It's not the "Christians country"...it's the people's country (theoretically). And those people include people of every religion, and atheists. Are you so arrogant that you won't consider taking two words out of the Pledge of Alligience? I had to say it, I had to stand up to recite the freaking Pledge every day. I hated it. I skipped "Under God" but I felt weird because literally everyone else was saying it. I agree with taking it out. Can anyone say "seperation of church and state"? Obviously, you don't understand this concept.

[J.L.R.]

Ok, first of all, your kids will likely hear every swear word in the book by the end of their first week of school. When I was 4, I swore at my mom and really had no idea what the word meant. I think it's reasonable to tell your kids these words before they hear it from someone else, and let them know that they aren't words they should use because they're bad (or whatever you want to say to discourage your kid from running around saying 'fuck you'...yes this does happen I've seen it). And about sex, why on earth is that wrong to tell your kid about? Do you think a better solution would be to tell them some fantasy story about where babies come from, then have them get laughed at in school because they don't know what sex is? I really don't understand what this sex taboo thing is for. Do you honestly think that just because kids are armed with knowledge of the human body that they are going to go out and be little sluts at age 12? More likely they will do that if you never talk to them about it. My parents never hid sex from me, I always knew the truth and I was honestly amazed when I found that some kids had no idea how babies were made.

As for this whole "sex before marriage" thing, I really don't get why Christians find that this is wrong either. Sex is not just for making babies and if you think that the only other reason it's for is to "share your soul" with your partner (give me a break) well you're lying to yourself. Most people have sex because it's enjoyable. And really, if God did not want us to have sex for reasons other than making babies why would He make it so good? I won't deny that sex definately creates a bond (in most cases, some people sleep around so much that they seemingly don't feel anything for the ones they have sex with), but this whole "sharing your soul" crap makes me sick. Is that what you're thinking about when you have sex? "Oh wow, honey, I really feel close to you now! Like we're sharing the same soul!" *puke* In my opinion there is absolutely nothing wrong with having sex before marriage and if you are at all smart, you will accept that your kid will, almost definately, get laid before they even propose. I was very very "no sex until marriage" until I found someone that I loved. I was ready, and I have no regrets over it, even though I'm no longer with him and frankly I hate him. To me and I believe many women, losing my virginity was extremely painful, and had I waited until the wedding night to do it, I would never have enjoyed myself. Plus I now know what I like and don't like and am more skilled at pleasing my partner. Justify abstinence for me. That adultery theory is bullcrap. How do you know when you've met your "one true love" if such a thing exists? I've fallen in love with everyone I've dated, fully head over heals. Hell even if I get a ring before having sex, there is still the possibility of divorcing and remarrying. Will you go to hell for commiting adultery then?
I dislike many Christians because many of them hold these super conservative, nonsensical, impractical morals that just are outdated. Sorry but you can teach your kid abstinece until marriage and hide sex from them until your death, but you know what? It's not gonna change them and if they decide that they want to have sex, they're gonna do it. Seriously, you're talking to the girl who went through modern "sex ed" which basically is just "don't have sex it's bad mmmmk??".
Get with the times. And please, get realistic.



Wow this is another reason I really don't like Christians. You deny people's concerns with having their children, whom they are chosing to raise atheist, HAVING to say "under God" every day in school? And not only do you deny it but you use the idiotic excuse "well our government is working and it was founded on Christianity so respect that and if you don't like it get out of America." WOW. That's intelligence right there. You've done everything to make our decisions "free" when it comes to religion....but we aren't giving in on "under God"!!!! Give me a break. It's not the "Christians country"...it's the people's country (theoretically). And those people include people of every religion, and atheists. Are you so arrogant that you won't consider taking two words out of the Pledge of Alligience? I had to say it, I had to stand up to recite the freaking Pledge every day. I hated it. I skipped "Under God" but I felt weird because literally everyone else was saying it. I agree with taking it out. Can anyone say "seperation of church and state"? Obviously, you don't understand this concept.

Actually, a major correction needs to be addressed. Under God was NOT an original part of the pledge of allegiance, it was actually added in the mid 20th century as an affirmation of our standing and allowance of religion in comparison to the atheist Communist mantra that religion was evil and needed to be eradicated in order to promote the unity of the Nation.

Also note that the stating of "One Nation Under God" must not be led to imply that it is closed to all other interpretations of what god is. It is simply a statement that we are a nation of faith. Atheism whether people like it or not, is a religion of its own. In Atheism humanism, or the concept of man, is god. I could totally understand if the pledge stated, "One nation under the Christian God..." however it simply states god. Take it as you'd like.

Also, separation of Church and State was a proclomation by Thomas Jefferson, and as far as I know, was never really a constitutional addition. The whole concept in reality was not to ban religion from government, but to prevent a totarian church from running everybody's life. The Church of England had total control over the religion lives of the people. Our founding father's did not wish for any institution to have that power to decide when and where or even if, a person should practice their religion.

As far as "Christian Nation" goes, whether you admit it or not, or even like it or not, western culture was largely based upon Christian principles: for bad or worse. The Bible certianly had a huge influence in the development of our country. Then again you have to look at our founding father's. Most of which were Christian or at least had a great understanding of the faith. This is evident in the Priamble, Declaration of Indepence, and multitudes of their own written works.

It can be safely stated then that our nation was founded upon Christian principles. To simply deny this because you don't like Christianity is just plainly ignorant. That is the truth.

This of course does not mean that they intended the USA to be a sole Christian country. It is also evident that they left things wide open for people to practice their religion any way they wish (within reason of course) They looked at the faults of England and were determined not to make those same mistakes.

80% of the United States believes in some sort of God, of that 80% a good 65% come from a Christian background (including Catholics) 15% remain for undecided, and only 5% represent those who completely deny any sort of higher being.

[Vendetta]

Also note that the stating of "One Nation Under God" must not be led to imply that it is closed to all other interpretations of what god is. It is simply a statement that we are a nation of faith. Atheism whether people like it or not, is a religion of its own.
Except that atheism has little or nothing to do with faith. I'm pretty sure if you asked most atheists, they'd take umbrage at the suggestion that atheism is a "religion". Also, I'd point out that we are NOT supposed to be a nation of faith, but a nation free from religious (or really ANY) persecution.

I could totally understand if the pledge stated, "One nation under the Christian God..." however it simply states god. Take it as you'd like.
Hmmm, so Hindus aren't welcome, nor are any other polytheistic religions? Sounds biased to me. Religious freedom means religious FREEDOM. Not just freedom to practice monotheistic religions like Christianity, Judaism or Islam.

Also, separation of Church and State was a proclomation by Thomas Jefferson, and as far as I know, was never really a constitutional addition. The whole concept in reality was not to ban religion from government, but to prevent a totarian church from running everybody's life. The Church of England had total control over the religion lives of the people. Our founding father's did not wish for any institution to have that power to decide when and where or even if, a person should practice their religion.
Wow, are you making an argument for the other side? Because you JUST negated your own point. There IS a seperation of church and state, and you said WHY it's there.

As far as "Christian Nation" goes, whether you admit it or not, or even like it or not, western culture was largely based upon Christian principles: for bad or worse. The Bible certianly had a huge influence in the development of our country. Then again you have to look at our founding father's. Most of which were Christian or at least had a great understanding of the faith. This is evident in the Priamble, Declaration of Indepence, and multitudes of their own written works.
I doubt ANY of the Christians from that era would recognize what people today pass off as Christianity, so I don't really see what your point is. The nation wasn't founded with the ideal of Christianity, it was founded with the ideals of freedoms of ALL sorts, regardless of which book they got it from.

80% of the United States believes in some sort of God, of that 80% a good 65% come from a Christian background (including Catholics) 15% remain for undecided, and only 5% represent those who completely deny any sort of higher being.
I'm not doubting your numbers, but do you have sources?

[BlackRosePhantom]

Actually, a major correction needs to be addressed. Under God was NOT an original part of the pledge of allegiance, it was actually added in the mid 20th century as an affirmation of our standing and allowance of religion in comparison to the atheist Communist mantra that religion was evil and needed to be eradicated in order to promote the unity of the Nation.

It was either 1953 or 57 in which the words "under god" was put in, and man is not god. Humans might have created the image of god from their imagination, but they are not god, nor does one exist (because science can disprove just about any aspect of any religion and what is written in their holy book, be it the Koran, Bible, Torah, etc.). "Under god" shouldn't have even be put in it to begin with no matter what the circumstances because the word "god" 1) is many used in Christian terms (Jews say Hasheem and Muslims say Allah), 2) offends atheist AND pagans (can't forget about them can we), and 3) does give a sense that the government supports Christianity above other religions.

P.S. Tempest, I do the same thing, and whenever back in 8th grade (can't say for this year since it's just started) there was a substitute in the room I'd get in trouble (especially when the ex-nun, but still religious, sub) and have to explain about me being an Atheist and all that crap so I wouldn't get a lunch detention (which is another reason why it should not be in the Pledge of Allegiance).

[Rascaduanok]

I love the way so many Christians act in such a terrified reactionary way to any hint of sex… yet seem content with the Bible which contains so many war crimes, carnage, atrocity, raping and pillaging. Good, that.

[Layira Aura]

Wow this is another reason I really don't like Christians. You deny people's concerns with having their children, whom they are chosing to raise atheist, HAVING to say "under God" every day in school? And not only do you deny it but you use the idiotic excuse "well our government is working and it was founded on Christianity so respect that and if you don't like it get out of America." WOW. That's intelligence right there. You've done everything to make our decisions "free" when it comes to religion....but we aren't giving in on "under God"!!!! Give me a break. It's not the "Christians country"...it's the people's country (theoretically). And those people include people of every religion, and atheists. Are you so arrogant that you won't consider taking two words out of the Pledge of Alligience? I had to say it, I had to stand up to recite the freaking Pledge every day. I hated it. I skipped "Under God" but I felt weird because literally everyone else was saying it.

I hate to be the one to point out technicalities, but in this instance, I feel it necessary. Now I don't agree with some of the Christian rules and such(even though I myself believe in 'God'), but I still feel that those two little words aren't a big deal. The teachers cannot MAKE you say the Pledge of Alleigance. I do not say it, simply because(as my mom puts it), I would be 'pledging my loyalty to a piece of cloth'. And sadly, that piece of cloth represents our country....which is corrupted in more than one way.

...and man is not god. Humans might have created the image of god from their imagination,but they are not god, nor does one exist ......

"Under god" shouldn't have even be put in it to begin with no matter what the circumstances because the word "god" 1) is many used in Christian terms (Jews say Hasheem and Muslims say Allah), 2) offends atheist AND pagans (can't forget about them can we), and 3) does give a sense that the government supports Christianity above other religions.

P.S. Tempest, I do the same thing, and whenever back in 8th grade (can't say for this year since it's just started) there was a substitute in the room I'd get in trouble (especially when the ex-nun, but still religious, sub) and have to explain about me being an Atheist and all that crap so I wouldn't get a lunch detention (which is another reason why it should not be in the Pledge of Allegiance).

It shouldn't be in there, according to you(the atheist), because of those things. Doesn't THAT seem a bit biased. (Talk about pot calling the kettle black! Oops, that might seem racist. We'd better come up with a new word so we don't offend anyone!!)

If I DID offend anyone, I'm sorry. But that is the attitude of some people these days. So again, if I offended you...I apologize.(It wasn't meant to be personal.)

Another thing; like I said to Tempest; if you don't want and/or didn't want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, then don't. You can stand up, giving RESPECT to OTHER PEOPLES' RELIGION, like we're supposed to.(oh gasp, is that possible??:eek: Maybe its too much to ask??) You can keep your mouth shut and during that time and think whatever you want. And if it bothers you SO much, then do something else about it. Maybe if its so much trouble, you can go to the principal of your school and rant to them about it.

Okay....to the more important topic:

What is the exact definition of 'god? Let's look it up from an average dictionary. I've added in my own tidbits as well...in the ()'s and bolded for us with bad eyes;)

God /gɒd/ –noun

1.the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe. (this does NOT say "the Christian god")

2.the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam. (oh look, the 'God' of Islam. Again not Christian.)

3.(lowercasehttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) one of several deities, esp. a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs. (This refers to something along the lines of a Greek or Roman god. Yet, not Christian.)

4.(often lowercasehttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy. (Again, not Christian. This is more of a symbolic definition.)

5.Christian Science. the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle. (Here it is! One of the last relevant definitions on the page.)

Another few I found:

1. God

a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.


b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality. (Again, this is more the Greek or Roman version of 'god')

3. A very handsome man. (NOT Christian:eek: )

4. A powerful ruler or despot. (Wow...not Christian!)


And if you want to check MY credibility, I will most certainly post my link.

http://dictionary.reference .com/browse/god


My point? Simple. The word 'god' can refer to a bunch of different things. The term "God" is used in Christianity because that is a name that is written in the Bible. There are several names used to him, and all are for different reasons. (such as Lord, God, etc.)Just because "God" is most oftenly called such in the Christian religion does not mean that it is the only name and only definition.

Besides, who says that 'god' is a figment of our imaginations? We cannot in any way prove that...therefore that statement is irrelevant.

(because science can disprove just about any aspect of any religion and what is written in their holy book, be it the Koran, Bible, Torah, etc.).

Oh really? Would you like to share any instances in which this is true? I am very interested in that, if it is true. But let me ask this; is the information credible? Or is it biased? Maybe from an atheist source just trying to rat on Christianity? I would like to see information on that one.

Most of the 'miracles' described in the Bible(I'm not familiar with other religious texts, unfortunately) are symbolic of Jesus' teachings and the ways of the religion. Now, they might have very well happened, or they may have not. However, since they are not scientifically proven to be true(or not), you cannot say that "God" doesn't exist. The Bible states that people lived to be several hundred years old, so who's to say that the miracles of the Bible really didn't happen? And since science and religion have two COMPLETELY different outlooks on life, you can't even compare the issues because you'd be questioning faith.

Now... 'God' is a GENERAL term. 'Under God' could mean a different thing depending on which Gods/Goddesses you may believe in. However, we have a right to practice whatever religion we want. And to say(not saying you did say, just pointing out a popular attitude)that Christians are given 'special privileges' or that this country is a Christian country is bogus. We get as spit on as every other religion, but we have such a large population of believers that it recieves more attention is all.

Lastly....on the subject of the CAP website. I think those people need to get lives...honestly, it's just horrible. If those people are so concerned about changing the world, maybe they should go over to Africa and help the starving people....or developing a cure for cancer. Because that seems a little more important than a child hearing about sex(up to a certain level of course. Kids just can't go around watching porn..but that'd be the parents fault) or seeing violence on TV. It's a ridiculous waste of time and it just makes Christians look bad.(not saying they're the ONLY ones who do that...but still.)

[Vendetta]

Another thing; like I said to Tempest; if you don't want and/or didn't want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, then don't. You can stand up, giving RESPECT to OTHER PEOPLES' RELIGION, like we're supposed to.(oh gasp, is that possible??:eek: Maybe its too much to ask??)
I think it's too much to ask someone to respect something that doesn't offer them much respect in return. Also, I don't recall anything in the US Constitution that says we have to respect people's religions. Their rights, certainly, but not their (often misguided) beliefs.

What is the exact definition of 'god? Let's look it up from an average dictionary. I've added in my own tidbits as well...in the ()'s and bolded for us with bad eyes;)

God /gɒd/ –noun

1.the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe. (this does NOT say "the Christian god")

2.the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam. (oh look, the 'God' of Islam. Again not Christian.)

3.(lowercasehttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) one of several deities, esp. a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs. (This refers to something along the lines of a Greek or Roman god. Yet, not Christian.)

4.(often lowercasehttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy. (Again, not Christian. This is more of a symbolic definition.)

5.Christian Science. the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle. (Here it is! One of the last relevant definitions on the page.)

Another few I found:

1. God

a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.


b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality. (Again, this is more the Greek or Roman version of 'god')

3. A very handsome man. (NOT Christian:eek: )

4. A powerful ruler or despot. (Wow...not Christian!)


And if you want to check MY credibility, I will most certainly post my link.

http://dictionary.reference .com/browse/god
Wow, I'm glad you can use the internet. I'm not sure what your definitions have to do with anything, other than clouding the subject.

My point? Simple. The word 'god' can refer to a bunch of different things. The term "God" is used in Christianity because that is a name that is written in the Bible. There are several names used to him, and all are for different reasons. (such as Lord, God, etc.)Just because "God" is most oftenly called such in the Christian religion does not mean that it is the only name and only definition.
When 'Under God' (NOTE: the capitalization there genius? That invalidates about half of your definitions) was added to the pledge, what God do YOU suppose they were referring to?

Besides, who says that 'god' is a figment of our imaginations? We cannot in any way prove that...therefore that statement is irrelevant.
I love when people try to turn the "proof" argument around. You inherently CANNOT prove God's existence, that means I don't HAVE to prove s/he/it doesn't exist. Also, how do you prove the NON-existence of something?

Oh really? Would you like to share any instances in which this is true? I am very interested in that, if it is true. But let me ask this; is the information credible? Or is it biased? Maybe from an atheist source just trying to rat on Christianity? I would like to see information on that one.
I'm sorry, you want PROOF that the miracles in the bible aren't possible? Have you ever even OPENED a physics book? I know you're young, but surely they teach you the sciences in school these days.

Most of the 'miracles' described in the Bible(I'm not familiar with other religious texts, unfortunately) are symbolic of Jesus' teachings and the ways of the religion. Now, they might have very well happened, or they may have not. However, since they are not scientifically proven to be true(or not), you cannot say that "God" doesn't exist.
Wait, I'm confused, since they are not proven how CAN they be true? Am I missing something in your "argument"?

The Bible states that people lived to be several hundred years old, so who's to say that the miracles of the Bible really didn't happen?
Good point. Hey now that you mention it, who's to say the shit in those Harry Potter books didn't reazlly happen?!?

And since science and religion have two COMPLETELY different outlooks on life, you can't even compare the issues because you'd be questioning faith.
We're not allowed to question faith? Blind, unquestioned faith has led mankind wrong so many times, I can't even begin to count. Please to read history book.

Now... 'God' is a GENERAL term. 'Under God' could mean a different thing depending on which Gods/Goddesses you may believe in.
First it says God, singular and masculine. I don't think there's much question about this. Stop trying to put your own spin on this, and stick to facts.

We get as spit on as every other religion, but we have such a large population of believers that it recieves more attention is all.
Oh you're right, you poor Christians and your history of being subjugated. Boo hoo.

OK, I'll give you the whole Romans and being fed to the lions thing sucked, but I'm pretty sure you've had it pretty good in the last few centuries, let alone the last millenia.

[Tempest]

I hate to be the one to point out technicalities, but in this instance, I feel it necessary. Now I don't agree with some of the Christian rules and such(even though I myself believe in 'God'), but I still feel that those two little words aren't a big deal. The teachers cannot MAKE you say the Pledge of Alleigance. I do not say it, simply because(as my mom puts it), I would be 'pledging my loyalty to a piece of cloth'. And sadly, that piece of cloth represents our country....which is corrupted in more than one way.

No they cannot make you say it, however they can cause you embarassment and discomfort by pointing you out and asking why you don't say "under God" or don't say the Pledge at all. And I have a better idea. How about we take out "under God" and if you want to add it you can. Now, you can define the word "God" until you are blue in the face, but you STILL don't address the polytheistic religions (particularly the ones with several dieties being the focus, such as the Hinduism--Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva), Goddess religions (these DO exist you know), atheists, or those who are undecided as to if there is a Supreme Being or not. With the growing popularity of Paganism, particularly Wicca, with teenagers, I'd say that it's really only a matter of time before the Pledge is either changed or just taken out of schools all together.

And if it bothers you SO much, then do something else about it. Maybe if its so much trouble, you can go to the principal of your school and rant to them about it.

Yes because the principal listens SO much to the ONE 15 year old who comes to his office to say that he doesn't like to say "under God". Hell, EVERYONE listens to that sole 15 year old. Sheesh, you'd think that you'd know how little one adolescent can do in the public school system. Or, maybe your school is different.

My point? Simple. The word 'god' can refer to a bunch of different things. The term "God" is used in Christianity because that is a name that is written in the Bible. There are several names used to him, and all are for different reasons. (such as Lord, God, etc.)Just because "God" is most oftenly called such in the Christian religion does not mean that it is the only name and only definition.

Yes, now all you atheists, just pretend that when you say "under God", you just mean that cute boy that you secretly have a crush on who sits in the back of the class. There, all solved!!!

Edit - I whipped out my Oxford Concise Dictionary of World Religions (which is not so concise) from my Comparative Religious Thought class I took earlier this year. I don't believe that atheism is a religion, but there are a lot of different definitions of the word, and some of them would lead us to believe that atheism is in fact a religion. My book lists quite a few and comes up with the conclusion that "Religions are organized systems which hold people together." It also looks at word religion itself, which could have been taken from two different roots. Relegere, to gather things together or to pass over the same ground repeatedly, or religare, to bind things together. Does atheism really bind people together? Do atheists have RELIGIOUS ceremonies that bring them together as a people? Is atheism an organized system of belief (and please don't say "yes because none of them believe in God...this is silly. There are no doctrines for atheism, no sacred texts, no mythology, and really nothing else that ALL religions--unless I'm mistaken--have)? No, no, and no. So, according to my book (which Oxford is pretty...reputable to say the least), atheism is NOT a religion. Just something interesting I thought I'd bring to the conversation.

[Necro Mortis]

Except that atheism has little or nothing to do with faith. I'm pretty sure if you asked most atheists, they'd take umbrage at the suggestion that atheism is a "religion".

I take umbrage alright. Let me just help clear something up for a few of you.

Atheism is NOT a religion. It's very name by definition is the absence of theism.
Please clarify how you can possibly class it as a religion.

[Layira Aura]

I think it's too much to ask someone to respect something that doesn't offer them much respect in return. Also, I don't recall anything in the US Constitution that says we have to respect people's religions. Their rights, certainly, but not their (often misguided) beliefs.

I did not say that you had to respect their beliefs. I said that you should respect their religion the same way you would respect their race or color. Meaning, not being ignorant and prejudice. (Althought I know we aren't perfect, people should try.)


Wow, I'm glad you can use the internet. I'm not sure what your definitions have to do with anything, other than clouding the subject.


I was trying to point out how when you say 'god', it does not always mean the Christian God.


When 'Under God' (NOTE: the capitalization there genius? That invalidates about half of your definitions) was added to the pledge, what God do YOU suppose they were referring to?


Obviously, it was referring to the writer's god. It was a Christian who wrote it, most likely, but if it had been an Islamic person...do you think it would have said Allah? Probably. But no. That's because its America we're talking about here. Since when have you seen a person of office that's not American? Right, never.

I love when people try to turn the "proof" argument around. You inherently CANNOT prove God's existence, that means I don't HAVE to prove s/he/it doesn't exist. Also, how do you prove the NON-existence of something?

Again you are making it seem like I said something I did not. I said that you can niether prove nor disprove of God's existence, and saying that all of it doesn't exist is using the concept of your "proof" argument.

I'm sorry, you want PROOF that the miracles in the bible aren't possible? Have you ever even OPENED a physics book? I know you're young, but surely they teach you the sciences in school these days.

Well, actually no. I haven't taken physics yet. :p Any of the other religious texts have just as much of the same stuff. And the miracles were just examples. I mean, we all know that Jesus of Nazareth really did exist. But the religious piece is still a mystery...according to you.

Wait, I'm confused, since they are not proven how CAN they be true? Am I missing something in your "argument"?

Many years ago people thought we couldn't travel to the moon, and now we can. It wasn't proven that we couldn't, yet it wasn't proven we could. Same thing in this case.

Good point. Hey now that you mention it, who's to say the shit in those Harry Potter books didn't reazlly happen?!?

No one. And that was a little childish to bring up an obviously fiction story to "prove" your "point".


We're not allowed to question faith? Blind, unquestioned faith has led mankind wrong so many times, I can't even begin to count. Please to read history book.


There you go AGAIN! I did NOT say that. I said that you'd be questioning faith against science, and doing so is a battle never to be won. Since nothing of faith can be proven, you can't compare the two. Science is based on facts and assumptions. While faith is not.

First it says God, singular and masculine. I don't think there's much question about this. Stop trying to put your own spin on this, and stick to facts.

True, but its interpretation of the word that counts.


Oh you're right, you poor Christians and your history of being subjugated. Boo hoo.

OK, I'll give you the whole Romans and being fed to the lions thing sucked, but I'm pretty sure you've had it pretty good in the last few centuries, let alone the last millenia.


It's the same thing as every other religion, all the persecution and such. It's not just Christians.

No they cannot make you say it, however they can cause you embarassment and discomfort by pointing you out and asking why you don't say "under God" or don't say the Pledge at all. And I have a better idea. How about we take out "under God" and if you want to add it you can. Now, you can define the word "God" until you are blue in the face, but you STILL don't address the polytheistic religions (particularly the ones with several dieties being the focus, such as the Hinduism--Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva), Goddess religions (these DO exist you know), atheists, or those who are undecided as to if there is a Supreme Being or not. With the growing popularity of Paganism, particularly Wicca, with teenagers, I'd say that it's really only a matter of time before the Pledge is either changed or just taken out of schools all together.

I understand that completely. Still, if its that much of a problem then either deal with it or do something about it.


Yes because the principal listens SO much to the ONE 15 year old who comes to his office to say that he doesn't like to say "under God". Hell, EVERYONE listens to that sole 15 year old. Sheesh, you'd think that you'd know how little one adolescent can do in the public school system. Or, maybe your school is different.


Apparently, the subject is a big deal. Then if a bunch of kids, (and their parents) complain to the school, something can happen. It wouldn't be ONE 15 year old who made a problem. Things change when people complain enough. And yes, my school is different....because my parents yell and scream at the teachers and principals if they do something wrong. And trust me, I am not a spoiled kid who gets whatever I want....so my parents only do something like that if its really imporant.

Yes, now all you atheists, just pretend that when you say "under God", you just mean that cute boy that you secretly have a crush on who sits in the back of the class. There, all solved!!!

If you want to take it that far...then go ahead. Honestly, its your choice.

[Layira Aura]

I think it's too much to ask someone to respect something that doesn't offer them much respect in return. Also, I don't recall anything in the US Constitution that says we have to respect people's religions. Their rights, certainly, but not their (often misguided) beliefs.

I did not say that you had to respect their beliefs. I said that you should respect their religion the same way you would respect their race or color. Meaning, not being ignorant and prejudice. (Althought I know we aren't perfect, people should try.)


Wow, I'm glad you can use the internet. I'm not sure what your definitions have to do with anything, other than clouding the subject.


I was trying to point out how when you say 'god', it does not always mean the Christian God.


When 'Under God' (NOTE: the capitalization there genius? That invalidates about half of your definitions) was added to the pledge, what God do YOU suppose they were referring to?


Obviously, it was referring to the writer's god. It was a Christian who wrote it, most likely, but if it had been an Islamic person...do you think it would have said Allah? Probably. But no. That's because its America we're talking about here. Since when have you seen a person of office that's not American? Right, never.

I love when people try to turn the "proof" argument around. You inherently CANNOT prove God's existence, that means I don't HAVE to prove s/he/it doesn't exist. Also, how do you prove the NON-existence of something?

Again you are making it seem like I said something I did not. I said that you can niether prove nor disprove of God's existence, and saying that all of it doesn't exist is using the concept of your "proof" argument.

I'm sorry, you want PROOF that the miracles in the bible aren't possible? Have you ever even OPENED a physics book? I know you're young, but surely they teach you the sciences in school these days.

Well, actually no. I haven't taken physics yet. :p Any of the other religious texts have just as much of the same stuff. And the miracles were just examples. I mean, we all know that Jesus of Nazareth really did exist. But the religious piece is still a mystery...according to you.

Wait, I'm confused, since they are not proven how CAN they be true? Am I missing something in your "argument"?

Many years ago people thought we couldn't travel to the moon, and now we can. It wasn't proven that we couldn't, yet it wasn't proven we could. Same thing in this case.

Good point. Hey now that you mention it, who's to say the shit in those Harry Potter books didn't reazlly happen?!?

No one. And that was a little childish to bring up an obviously fiction story to "prove" your "point".


We're not allowed to question faith? Blind, unquestioned faith has led mankind wrong so many times, I can't even begin to count. Please to read history book.


There you go AGAIN! I did NOT say that. I said that you'd be questioning faith against science, and doing so is a battle never to be won. Since nothing of faith can be proven, you can't compare the two. Science is based on facts and assumptions. While faith is not.

First it says God, singular and masculine. I don't think there's much question about this. Stop trying to put your own spin on this, and stick to facts.

True, but its interpretation of the word that counts.


Oh you're right, you poor Christians and your history of being subjugated. Boo hoo.

OK, I'll give you the whole Romans and being fed to the lions thing sucked, but I'm pretty sure you've had it pretty good in the last few centuries, let alone the last millenia.


It's the same thing as every other religion, all the persecution and such. It's not just Christians.

No they cannot make you say it, however they can cause you embarassment and discomfort by pointing you out and asking why you don't say "under God" or don't say the Pledge at all. And I have a better idea. How about we take out "under God" and if you want to add it you can. Now, you can define the word "God" until you are blue in the face, but you STILL don't address the polytheistic religions (particularly the ones with several dieties being the focus, such as the Hinduism--Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva), Goddess religions (these DO exist you know), atheists, or those who are undecided as to if there is a Supreme Being or not. With the growing popularity of Paganism, particularly Wicca, with teenagers, I'd say that it's really only a matter of time before the Pledge is either changed or just taken out of schools all together.

I understand that completely. Still, if its that much of a problem then either deal with it or do something about it.


Yes because the principal listens SO much to the ONE 15 year old who comes to his office to say that he doesn't like to say "under God". Hell, EVERYONE listens to that sole 15 year old. Sheesh, you'd think that you'd know how little one adolescent can do in the public school system. Or, maybe your school is different.


Apparently, the subject is a big deal. Then if a bunch of kids, (and their parents) complain to the school, something can happen. It wouldn't be ONE 15 year old who made a problem. Things change when people complain enough. And yes, my school is different....because my parents yell and scream at the teachers and principals if they do something wrong. And trust me, I am not a spoiled kid who gets whatever I want....so my parents only do something like that if its really imporant.

Yes, now all you atheists, just pretend that when you say "under God", you just mean that cute boy that you secretly have a crush on who sits in the back of the class. There, all solved!!!

If you want to take it that far...then go ahead. Honestly, its your choice.

[BlackRosePhantom]

Obviously, it was referring to the writer's god. It was a Christian who wrote it, most likely, but if it had been an Islamic person...do you think it would have said Allah? Probably. But no. That's because its America we're talking about here. Since when have you seen a person of office that's not American? Right, never.

I just want to point a few things out. First, it's Muslim. Islamic is an adjective that mean "of Islam", like Islamic art. Islam is the religion the Muslim people practice. Second, the man that added the words "Under God" was indeed Christian. Third, since when can't Muslims (or Islamics) be Americans? I know other kids that are Muslim and they prefer to use the word Allah instead of god.

And for my referance...
http://dictionary.reference .com/browse/Islamic

[Tempest]

Obviously, it was referring to the writer's god. It was a Christian who wrote it, most likely, but if it had been an Islamic person...do you think it would have said Allah? Probably. But no. That's because its America we're talking about here. Since when have you seen a person of office that's not American? Right, never.

Umm since when does American = Christian? I mean, damn I know Christianity is popular, but are you not understanding that you can be a non-Christian and still be American?

I mean, we all know that Jesus of Nazareth really did exist. But the religious piece is still a mystery...according to you.

:rolleyes:

No one. And that was a little childish to bring up an obviously fiction story to "prove" your "point".

You totally missed his point. The Bible IS, to those who aren't blinded by religion, obviously a fictional story. It's MYTH. Yes that's right. MYTH.

Science is based on facts and assumptions.

Science is based on assumptions? Wow that's a new one.

I understand that completely. Still, if its that much of a problem then either deal with it or do something about it.

What an original argument! Hun, if I picketed for all my causes and opinions and problems with this government, I would have no time, no money, and no life.

Apparently, the subject is a big deal. Then if a bunch of kids, (and their parents) complain to the school, something can happen. It wouldn't be ONE 15 year old who made a problem. Things change when people complain enough.

Yeah, let's get enough parents and kids together who aren't Christian in my tiny, population of 4,000 town, and then try to change my super conservative, ran-by-Christian school system. It surely will work! Except for the minor problem that out of the 700 kids in my high school, perhaps a dozen were NOT Christian. Personally, I no longer CARE per say about the Pledge. I haven't had to say it for over a year...being that I'm not in high school anymore. But I do have a right to post my opinion on the matter, and am allowed to have an opinon as to how it SHOULD be, despite the fact that it doesn't affect me at this time.

If you want to take it that far...then go ahead. Honestly, its your choice.

Again you missed my point. Or maybe you are like Aeolus and need sarcasm to be pointed out to you.

[Pickle Tickler]

My only regret is that I can only thank you but once, Vendetta.

Layira, are you a Christian?

[Layira Aura]

I just want to point a few things out. First, it's Muslim. Islamic is an adjective that mean "of Islam", like Islamic art. Islam is the religion the Muslim people practice. Second, the man that added the words "Under God" was indeed Christian. Third, since when can't Muslims (or Islamics) be Americans? I know other kids that are Muslim and they prefer to use the word Allah instead of god.

And for my referance...
http://dictionary.reference .com/browse/Islamic

I apologize for the mistake. I know what the term means, I just didn't write what I was thinking. Muslims can be American, I'm just saying that we've never seen someone who wasn't Caucasian making decisions in America. I know several Muslims as well, but they don't have a problem with the Pledge. They just don't say it.

Umm since when does American = Christian? I mean, damn I know Christianity is popular, but are you not understanding that you can be a non-Christian and still be American?

I never said that. An American is a person who lives in America. I meant an American born Caucasian.


:rolleyes:

Umm...was there a point to that? He did exist, look in a history book under the fall of the Roman empire. He was mentioned.


You totally missed his point. The Bible IS, to those who aren't blinded by religion, obviously a fictional story. It's MYTH. Yes that's right. MYTH.

I have my disagreements with parts of the Bible, yes, but I am entitled to my opinion as much as you are.

Science is based on assumptions? Wow that's a new one.

Okay...bad word choice. Maybe a better term would be...un detailed studies? Seriously, science can be wrong about a lot of things.

What an original argument! Hun, if I picketed for all my causes and opinions and problems with this government, I would have no time, no money, and no life.

Exactly, which is why some things, like saying the Pledge, can be avoided.

Yeah, let's get enough parents and kids together who aren't Christian in my tiny, population of 4,000 town, and then try to change my super conservative, ran-by-Christian school system. It surely will work! Except for the minor problem that out of the 700 kids in my high school, perhaps a dozen were NOT Christian. Personally, I no longer CARE per say about the Pledge. I haven't had to say it for over a year...being that I'm not in high school anymore. But I do have a right to post my opinion on the matter, and am allowed to have an opinon as to how it SHOULD be, despite the fact that it doesn't affect me at this time.

I understand what you mean. You have all the right to post your opinion. Just like I do. And I think changing the Pledge is silly....we should just get rid of the whole darn thing!!

Again you missed my point. Or maybe you are like Aeolus and need sarcasm to be pointed out to you.

I was being sarcastic too. I wasn't missing anything.

[YoungFang]

Umm...was there a point to that? He did exist, look in a history book under the fall of the Roman empire. He was mentioned.

Um, I think you'll find most athiests would dispute that.

[sai-fujiwara]

Yes, I know, I must attempt to be one of those Christians who protests this. The United States was founded by PURITANS. These men wanted a nation where people can live free of the evils of monarchism or hierarchy or whatever it's called. The founding fathers of our nation were Christians, hence the blessing of "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. I know a lot of people are protesting those words today, calling it an insult. My usual response is, "Well, our government has been working for years now, and it was founded by Christianity. We've done everything we can to make your decisions 'free' to choose when it comes to religion. Don't ever ask us to change ours. It's our country. You don't like it? Leave."
A bit pig-headed? Probably. But it's also the truth. And honestly, it's not a big deal.
O_o Indeed, it was founded by Christians. But my point was not that it was founded by Christians, my point was that the laws and the principals in which this country was based on was not Christian at all.

I know it is not a big deal, but I just like to point it out.

Besides, none of the founding fathers were Puritans. In that day and age, all the denominations of the church were rivals, thinking that their way was the best way to get to heaven. It still is like that, but.. *shrug*. Some could say that the Mormons are not Christians, or that in that day and age the Puritans were not truly part of Christianity, same with Quakers.

In my opinion, the founding fathers were actually really smart men, leaders, who could set aside their differences for what they believed was right. They saw the evils that were coming from the king and they really saw that people had a right, if not a duty, to rise up and take command instead of being enslaved by the laws of a greedy monarch, forced to really starve because they could not trade or work the way that would most benefit them, along with being prosecuted because they just happened to disagree with something the governor said, or their overseer thinks.

Bah, I've had enough of this topic.

I apologize for the mistake. I know what the term means, I just didn't write what I was thinking. Muslims can be American, I'm just saying that we've never seen someone who wasn't Caucasian making decisions in America. I know several Muslims as well, but they don't have a problem with the Pledge. They just don't say it.
True... We've never seen someone who was not Caucasian, male, and Christian as president (or vice president I think).

But I've seen females make decisions to protest and work hard for female rights. Same with those people of darker skin (if you want to call them African Americans, then call me Norwegian American. Its been forever and some of y'all haven't even seen Africa. We're all human anyway.) have made decisions that led up to a dramatic change.

Might I add that in America, there is no official religion, language (well, I might be wrong on this one), race, or law against any of these. Only qualm I have is with the idiots who think that there is and who want to desperately change it when they are proven wrong.

(Though, I gotta admit, things like separating church from state is a right thing to do.)

*finishes rambling*

[Pickle Tickler]

Layira, and anyone else who may be a Christian that is involved in this thread, answer my fucking question. Are you a Christian or not?

[Tempest]

A history book is not proof.

I'm not denying the existence of a prophet named Jesus. I'm denying the existence of a prophet Jesus who preformed miracles and bullshit like that. Jesus, in my eyes, was just like Muhammed or Buddah. A prophet, a religion icon, sure someone to be looked up to and someone to listen to. But he did NOT frolic around making water into wine and shit like that.
So anyway, your history book may mention Jesus, but that doesn't mean he was the Son of God.

Also I'd like to point out that my eye roll was in response to
But the religious piece is still a mystery...according to you.
Come on kids, let's stop blindingly accepting things with no proof whatsoever.

[Layira Aura]

Layira, and anyone else who may be a Christian that is involved in this thread, answer my fucking question. Are you a Christian or not?

At times, yes. I am not an extremely religious person anyway, so it doesn't matter much to me.

A history book is not proof.

I'm not denying the existence of a prophet named Jesus. I'm denying the existence of a prophet Jesus who preformed miracles and bullshit like that. Jesus, in my eyes, was just like Muhammed or Buddah. A prophet, a religion icon, sure someone to be looked up to and someone to listen to. But he did NOT frolic around making water into wine and shit like that.
So anyway, your history book may mention Jesus, but that doesn't mean he was the Son of God.


That's what I was referring to. That my history book does mention Jesus, but it being a history book(meant for school) it mentions nothing about him being the Son of God. So, yes, I can agree with that part.

[J.L.R.]

How many of you have been out of the country? I've travled the world, set foot in many different countries and experienced a wealth of culture. Expensive yes, but I love to travel, and I love to visit new places. I always have.

India is considered a Hindu nation, even though there are literally thousands of minor religions and secs in the country. The majority is Hindu...

Isreal is a Jewish nation, even though there is a surprising large quantity of Muslims, and minor Christians.

Thailand is largely a Buddhist...

So why does it pain an atheist so much that somebody refers the United States as a Christian Nation?

As I quoted earlier, of which was taken from a NBC broadcast, by the way, 65% of the USA practice one form or another of Christianity, or at the very least consider themselves to be Christians.

For this reason it is not surprising that you could probably find several Christian churches in your city. Where I live, there is literally a church on every block. Life Church, has two plants in Oklahoma City, with a regular attendance of nearly 12,000 every Sat and Sun. There are churches that seat more. I've seen them in Seatle, WA.

You can not argue what our fore father's were thinking, but arguement alone. Most of them were Christians, and most of them carried a Christian perspective on how to run a country, whether right or wrong. You don't know, at all, for a second, that they weren't intending to create a "Christian" nation. In truth, they praticed Christian indoctrination fluently...

History reveals that our fore fathers were intolarent of other religions... (Salem Witch Trial), mistreatment of Indians and their culture... When they wrote that all men are created equal, most of those who branded it, were slave owners. In short to be considered equal, you had to fit certain qualifications. This had little to do with actual Biblical principle, than their own views and concepts.

Up until the 1960's, Bible reading and Christian led prayer was a common practice in public schools. Your Grandparents can atest to this.

Even in Presidential elections, there hasn't been a president, as far as my knowledge goes, that hasn't used Christianity, or a Christian persona to help swing a vote. Even President Clinton, would attentively go to church, just to be seen going to church to help sway the Christian votes.

Benjirmen Franklin once quoted, "That I man could not even hold council if he didn't know the Ten Commandments."

By of which, also until recently could be seen in our own court houses.

And as far as I know when a person testifies, he or she STILL has to swear upon a Bible... as far as I know... they might have changed that, but I'm not sure.

Also, if that is not enough, again until relatively recently, most buisnesses were closed on Saturday and Sunday, again a very Christian concept.

So by in large the USA is considered a Christian country, as I've already stated the Bible was a huge focal point in the lives and decisions of those who crafted our country. We can argue what they wanted or not, but I think history, unless you are blind, gives better insight to what they really thought, than idle prattle.

What certianly gripes me about this whole conversation is the open refusal to believe that the Bible and its tenents played any sort of role in the building of this country. This is skepticism at its worse.

It is about as bad as seeing some loony Christian deny in the existance of extint Dinosaurs as a huge Darwinistic hoax. I think everybody should be a little skeptic, but to the point of blindness is simply absurd.

The evidence I have laid before you tells me, that our fore fathers wanted to create a country were all (of whom they considered) men could live life and work as they please. I believe they wanted to grant religious freedom, however I also feel that they were also short sighted in that retrospect, as they were heavily biased to their own personal beliefs, and that being Christianity. Yes they said everybody was free to practice what they wanted, but I believe, based upon history, that it was easier said that done.

As for God being capitalized in "Under God." Again this is really something trivial to gripe about, because even before I was a Christian, I never really thought about it. It just didn't mean anything to me, and was something to say before class. However, being that some small minute few of our citizens out there seem totally repulsed by the phrase, I find it more so amusing... For what is more disturbing one person having trouble saying the word god, or a school of 600+ students in California protesting not being able to say the Pledge of Allegiance because that one person was offended... hum... Smells of Marxist to me... I've lived in countries where I was the minority religion, whether Islam in Morocco or Bhuddists in Thailand. I fully respected their customs, and even upon entering their temples, removed my shoes out of reverence for their beliefs. Never once was I offended by their customs or practices. I have a friend who is a Witch, not a Wicca practicionar, an actual witch. Her beliefs and rituals never onced offended me. I've stood in the minority, and I've been there. I know what I believe is true (true to me that is, just so none of you that are frail to heart burst), so why should I get offended...

It isn't that I feel that other people's feelings don't matter, but ultimately they do. However, I do find it perplexing that some people get offended over stupid things. I'm no different with this than those yokals who protest Harry Potter books.

Is it that an Atheist just can stand the thought that there might be something out there greater than themselves? Humanism is a very old religion. For those who don't know. Humanism is a religion of man, with it being, man is god. In the Atheist construct man has conquered god and the old ways, and has transcended to a new evolutionary platform. He is master of his destiny (or her). If there is no god, then man has to be god. He is the creator, the attributar of truth and justice, for he (or she) is the maker of right and wrong, good and evil.

I dunno... even though I have a tendency to write a bit poetically at times, it certianly sounds a bit religious to me, even if written in a more mechanical from rather than my prose.

Finally, as for Tempest's statement...

What is easier to believe that all life in its full complexity and purpose was created by mere random chance/ A leading physicist (non Christian mind you) once stated that it would be easier to cast a dart from one side of the galaxy to the other and hit a bulleye 10 milimeters in diameter than for life to have started by random chance. (this quote in case you are interested is found in a book called, "The Science of God, by Gerald S. Shreoder, of whom is not a Christian)/ or that our world and the worlds that be was designed and created by an Almighty entity, of Whom had His hand in every aspect of its Creation.

It isn't blindness to see grass, birds, trees, or stare at the great expance of space and marvel and believe that there is something out there greater than oneself... to me, that would be logical...

I hear many complaints, especially on this board about Christians... Christianity this... Christianity that... it is almost a broken record. The same thing could be said about Christians griping about other people as well... Believe me I hear junk all the time, but I have found a common logic for myself and I am very happy with it.

The truth is there are really stupid people out there. Stupid people who do stupid things hiding under the guise of religion, or whatever they choose. If it wasn't religion, seriously they would find something else to be a scapegoat for their ignorance and mean spiritedness. Christianity is often the scapegoat for such lunatics, because Christianity is wide spread in most of Europe and the Americas. In other parts of the world you have Extremist Islamists, or Communistic kooks...

Shit happens and you deal with it. Let their bull role off your back and get on with your life, because there are a LOT better things to do than grip about everybody else and everybody else's dog.

[Tempest]

How many of you have been out of the country? I've travled the world, set foot in many different countries and experienced a wealth of culture. Expensive yes, but I love to travel, and I love to visit new places. I always have.

India is considered a Hindu nation, even though there are literally thousands of minor religions and secs in the country. The majority is Hindu...

Isreal is a Jewish nation, even though there is a surprising large quantity of Muslims, and minor Christians.

Thailand is largely a Buddhist...

Minor detail, you don't have to travel to know these things.

So why does it pain an atheist so much that somebody refers the United States as a Christian Nation?

Because unlike other countries we are supposed to seperate church and state? It's undeniable that we are prodominately Christian, however 65%, as you say, of America having one religion is nothing in comparison to 80% of India being Hindu. We don't have an official religion, and to insinuate that laws that contain Christian background should exist simply because a majority are Christian is pretty simple minded.

I fully respected their customs, and even upon entering their temples, removed my shoes out of reverence for their beliefs. Never once was I offended by their customs or practices. I have a friend who is a Witch, not a Wicca practicionar, an actual witch. Her beliefs and rituals never onced offended me. I've stood in the minority, and I've been there. I know what I believe is true (true to me that is, just so none of you that are frail to heart burst), so why should I get offended...

I'm glad that you respect other's religions. However, I don't see how entering a temple (a place intended for WORSHIP) is at all akin to a country. Removing ones shoes to show respect when entering another's place of worship =/= Having every child in America say "under God" every day. How is that respecting other's religion? Respecting someone's religion has nothing to do with saying "under God". Nothing. I'm not understanding where you are coming up with this conclusion.

However, I do find it perplexing that some people get offended over stupid things. I'm no different with this than those yokals who protest Harry Potter books.

I'm not offended over it. As I said, it doesn't even affect me at this time. However, I have a right to say how I feel on the matter, just like you and everyone else. Just because someone posts an opinion does not mean they take offense or would defend their belief with their life.

Is it that an Atheist just can stand the thought that there might be something out there greater than themselves? Humanism is a very old religion. For those who don't know. Humanism is a religion of man, with it being, man is god. In the Atheist construct man has conquered god and the old ways, and has transcended to a new evolutionary platform. He is master of his destiny (or her). If there is no god, then man has to be god. He is the creator, the attributar of truth and justice, for he (or she) is the maker of right and wrong, good and evil.

Humanism is NOT a religion, it's a philosophy that is INCORPERATED into some religions.

What is easier to believe that all life in its full complexity and purpose was created by mere random chance/

I have never brought my personal religion into this argument. I'm not sure where you even got that I'm atheistic. I don't consider myself anything and don't have any distinct opinion on any religious matter, except that I'm definately not Christian. Thanks for...whatever...try ing to make me see things in a religious way? Mk. Well your little schpeal to me really had nothing to do with me at all.

[blueeyes]

As a note, the actual requirement is not separation of church and state, but "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...". Even Jefferson and Madison, from whom we get the phrase 'separation of church and state', were deists.

Jefferson went so far as to speak of an Abrahamic diety during his second inaugural address and wrote: "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice can not sleep forever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference!"

In many ways, they believed that a guiding force was very much a direct reason that any republic could survive. It's important to remember that the main concerns at the time where more worried about the English system, where religion had effectively been commandeered by the government, than anything else.

Sorry. I don't particularly care what people believe, and I think it's very important for some people to have something to believe in, and other to limit their belief, but "we are supposed to seperate church and state" is just one of those lovely combinations of logical fallacies that make discussion remarkably difficult.

[Pickle Tickler]

At times, yes. I am not an extremely religious person anyway, so it doesn't matter much to me.

But you do have faith, correct?

This is the part that irks me. When Christians, (or any religion for that matter) feel the need to clarify their faith with facts. I find that hypocritical, because then it does not sound as if you have faith, it is that you think you know. And I think that's where the idea that our religion is superior, blah blah blah, stems from. Or part of it at least. In Christianity, at least, I know some people draw that from the first four Commandments, which can be grouped into loving our Lord above anyone or anything else, and having faith in him and only him.

On the other hand, the whole idea that people want to find facts about the Bible to help spread their religious faith, in some ways that is just as bad. In some cases, it may seem like we are trying to subconsciously (and not so subtly) trying to shove our religion down others throats. It is important to know these things, but it is also important that we don't forget the real reason we even have a belief or a religion at all: faith.

[J.L.R.]

But you do have faith, correct?

This is the part that irks me. When Christians, (or any religion for that matter) feel the need to clarify their faith with facts. I find that hypocritical, because then it does not sound as if you have faith, it is that you think you know. And I think that's where the idea that our religion is superior, blah blah blah, stems from. Or part of it at least. In Christianity, at least, I know some people draw that from the first four Commandments, which can be grouped into loving our Lord above anyone or anything else, and having faith in him and only him.

On the other hand, the whole idea that people want to find facts about the Bible to help spread their religious faith, in some ways that is just as bad. In some cases, it may seem like we are trying to subconsciously (and not so subtly) trying to shove our religion down others throats. It is important to know these things, but it is also important that we don't forget the real reason we even have a belief or a religion at all: faith.

The fact though is this, the Bible is very different from almost, if not, every other religious text, as it does follow actual historical events, or has a point of view of an event, such as the Beginning, Global Flood, Exodus... We can find factual basis for all of these, not to mention the Isrealites were a real nomadic shepherding people at one time.

It isn't some sort of document that was forged out of thin air, as some ignorantly and very blindly speculate, but a record of beliefs, movements, and workings of an actual people. We can, for the most part find evidence archeologically of the existence of David, Solomon, and many of the other personas in the Bible. Again people who suggest that it was simply made up, is only fooling themselves, because it wasn't.

Even the older more traditional accounts of the Global Flood, and Creation, follows a more natural course, than some of the more stupindess god vs god versions.

Well it is geographically doubtful that an actual GLOBAL FLOOD, had actually occured, is it quite possible that a massive flood did occure that would have flooded the, then, known, earth. This tale could have been spread down through the ages, by word of mouth...

Even so, the truth as it stands is that, if every thing in the Bible could be proven to have occured (obviously not all of it can as of yet) that doesn't mean that there is an existence of God, only that the Bible can seen as a credible source of ancient history.

Yes, many Christians push the validity of the Bible as proof that God, indeed, does exist, but you simply can't. You have faith, in the fact that God was the mover and maker of the events, but that is all.

It isn't wrong to ask questions and search for answers, nor does it show a lack of faith. Even God stated in the Bible, "Speak to the earth, and she shall teach thee." You're not to believe the Bible blindly, but search the world, study, and learn...

[sai-fujiwara]

The fact though is this, the Bible is very different from almost, if not, every other religious text, as it does follow actual historical events, or has a point of view of an event, such as the Beginning, Global Flood, Exodus... We can find factual basis for all of these, not to mention the Isrealites were a real nomadic shepherding people at one time.
Watch the history channel. They did a documentary explaining the plagues of Egypt, how they happened, when they happened, etc.

I think that the painting sheep's blood on your door was just a bluff, really...
Yes, many Christians push the validity of the Bible as proof that God, indeed, does exist, but you simply can't. You have faith, in the fact that God was the mover and maker of the events, but that is all.
And be a Muslim rip off? No way, God has told me that he exists. When God is the one to tell you this, you don't just write it off. *slightly sarcastic remark*
It isn't wrong to ask questions and search for answers, nor does it show a lack of faith. Even God stated in the Bible, "Speak to the earth, and she shall teach thee." You're not to believe the Bible blindly, but search the world, study, and learn...
.O.

If you could find the actual passage to this, I will love you forever (which I already do).

[blueeyes]

I think it's Job 12:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2012:8;&version=9;), although I'd swear it's the sort of passage that pops up in more than one location.

I believe that there are other religious texts with a factual basis, such as portions of Buddhist religious texts are believed to be grounded around history, although this is oft