Beliefs

[Comrade_Alexei]

For most of my life, though I am a fervent communist, I have believed in the Pagan goddess Luna. To me She is the source of the wolf spirit which we all share.

[Lysander]

Was Luna pissed off that people were landing probes and spaceships on her face?

[ThrasherCub]

I'm pretty sure wolves are the source of wolf spirits.

I also enjoy that you say "though you are a communist" as if being pagan doesn't mix with being communist.

[Tsuki Aikoka]

hmmm...i don't know about that...i get all my wolf spirits from a special can at waqlmart for a buck fifty...you sure that luna person has anything to do with it?

[Comrade_Alexei]

I'm pretty sure wolves are the source of wolf spirits.

I also enjoy that you say "though you are a communist" as if being pagan doesn't mix with being communist.

The reason I say that is many people believe theoretically a communist should also be atheist.

Lol ha ha ha The Goddess is not the moon lol and anyway wolf spirits are cheaper at Zellars

[ThrasherCub]

The reason I say that is many people believe theoretically a communist should also be atheist.
Those people must not be terribly well read.

If Thelema were the national religion it would result in communism. Same goes for Buddhism.

Most Communists being atheist doesn't mean anything more than, currently, the majority of individuals active in communist groups are atheist.

I, for example, am a flamingly Thelemic communist.

[John 677808]

For most of my life, though I am a fervent communist, I have believed in the Pagan goddess Luna. To me She is the source of the wolf spirit which we all share.

Your saying you live in Soviet Canuckistan, though you still worship the Goddess Luna.

[ThrasherCub]

Your saying you live in Soviet Canuckistan, though you still worship the Goddess Luna.

I would love to visit the Union of Soviet Socialist Canadian Providences.

I'm still curious about how "we all share" the spirit of the wolf and what that has to do with Luna.

[UNODRAGONE]

I would love to visit the Union of Soviet Socialist Canadian Providences.

I'm still curious about how "we all share" the spirit of the wolf and what that has to do with Luna.

I tried my best to find an answer to how we all share a wolf spirit but yeah that one I came up empty on besides the whole "beast in all of us" scenario but again that can be any animal not necessarily a wolf. The only thing I really found in reference to the moon and wolves was the RPG game White wolf. But as far as the moon and wolves, wolves howl at night, full moon or no full moon so that one, besides the mythical reasoning behind it (wolves singing to mother Luna) I'm at a lost with as well but I did find these interesting websites :)

http://forums.white-wolf.com/viewtopic.php?t=6425 0

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/PT/M17.html

http://groups.msn.com/AwakingTheSpiritReal m/yourwebpage87.msnw

[Comrade_Alexei]

I never said beliefs are rational lol Luna (the goddess) is merely a face of the divine. The reason we are all here is because we all share a common interest. (It is called WEREWOLF.COM) That there is the wolf spirit, a belief in some kind of wild spirit which exists in us all. As to the other accusations I am a Marxist-Lennist to quote Marx "Religion is the opiate of the masses" anyway, I do believe in some kind of spirit that can join us all.

[ThrasherCub]

The reason we are all here is because we all share a common interest. (It is called WEREWOLF.COM)
Actually there are several members here who don't even like werewolves, and none of us shares interests with every other member.

That there is the wolf spirit, a belief in some kind of wild spirit which exists in us all.
Why is it a wolf spirit though? Why not something else wild?

"Religion is the opiate of the masses"
I prefer Kerry Thornley; "If organized religion is the opium of the masses, then disorganized religion is the marijuana of the lunatic fringe."

[DarkHunter]

I never said beliefs are rational lol Luna (the goddess) is merely a face of the divine. The reason we are all here is because we all share a common interest. (It is called WEREWOLF.COM) That there is the wolf spirit, a belief in some kind of wild spirit which exists in us all. As to the other accusations I am a Marxist-Lennist to quote Marx "Religion is the opiate of the masses" anyway, I do believe in some kind of spirit that can join us all.


Marx is probably one of the more famous communists. But if you remember your Marx, he said that Egypt was probably the first Collectivist State, yet Egypt was also a Theocracy (state solar cult) with a variety of local cults. If Egypt typifies Communism as Marx suggests, than religion seems to have a place (other than a Communistic worship of the State itself). Marx just didn't like organized religion because it was used as a balm to the downtrodden. The old Atheist, "This is controlling me!" gag.

[MorganaFang]

I never said beliefs are rational lol Luna (the goddess) is merely a face of the divine.
"The face" needs to exist outside the realms of a few people's fantasies in order for it to be truly "divine".

Luna is the goddess of the moon, a roman goddess, any other tribes would probably find the name quite distasteful for that fact.

I'm curious how you came across worshiping an misnamed
figure.

There are "wolf goddesses" but none matching what you have described, in my findings. I'd be happy to be enlightened.

The communist thing is moot.

[LV426]

Communism only works for bees and ants and others of the insect world. Oh and the Borg.

[ThrasherCub]

Oh and the Borg.
Hey the future Roddenberry painted in Star Trek looks pretty communist.
Communism doesn't work because it would require that people do things for reasons like "betterment of the world" rather than "get me more stuff!"

I'm a Communist, but if they tried to make this a Communist state, I'd fight it tooth and nail. So long as we've all got the "me me me!" attitude it would not only fail, but be a pretty miserable and painful failure.

[Comrade_Alexei]

"The face" needs to exist outside the realms of a few people's fantasies in order for it to be truly "divine".

Luna is the goddess of the moon, a roman goddess, any other tribes would probably find the name quite distasteful for that fact.

I'm curious how you came across worshiping an misnamed
figure.

There are "wolf goddesses" but none matching what you have described, in my findings. I'd be happy to be enlightened.

The communist thing is moot.

Comrade whatever name one uses to worship the goddess is irrelevant. As long as one believes in her, the rest is generally interchangeable. As for your comment about the goddess needing to exist outside some peoples fantasies... Show me one divine figure these days that can truly manifest.. Beliefs are for each person to decide for themselves and ridiculing them is not only a waste of time but extremely nonconstructive. I do agree about the comment on he creation of a communist state in the current world. The world seems to still not be ready for the idea. The dictatorship of the proletariat seems just as much a fantasy as that which we worship some days :(

[ThrasherCub]

the rest is generally interchangeable
Study more magick. Magick tends to be the way one can interact with deities with actual results that you don't have to guess about ("I got my job because I prayed to God!... Either that, or they happened to look at my resume!").

And if the symbolism and whatnot are wrong, nothing occurs. These interchangeable god identities only work if you view them as personifications of internal aspects, not external beings.

Otherwise it's like me shouting "Hey, Moppo!" and expecting you to answer, simply because that's what I decided to name you.

[Pickle Tickler]

For most of my life, though I am a fervent communist, I have believed in the Pagan goddess Luna. To me She is the source of the wolf spirit which we all share.


Why does everyone seem to think that Paganism is actually in itself a religion? The term pagan was originated to mean "not in the Christian faith". So a Muslim is technically a pagan. Pagan also means hick, or low person.

[UNODRAGONE]

http://www.religioustoleran ce.org/paganism.htm

:)

[Vendetta]

Pagan also meant, in ancient LATIN, hick, or low person.
Fix'd for ya there.

[The Dragon-King]

I disagree with all of you. Communism is a waste of time, but so is capitalism. If you don't like werewolves, why are you on werewolf.com. and paganism is a relgion. it's just one that nobody agrees with anymore.

[MorganaFang]

so is capitalism.
Says the boy who gainfully expresses his opinions through a paid for service of the internet, and a computer. Pointless eh. haha!

If you don't like werewolves, why are you on werewolf.com.

Because it is not a site about werewolves and it is not a requirement to like werewolves to be on here either. In fact the more tr00 w3r3s that hop on here the more and more the admins are considering to make it a requirement to totally hate werewolves.

So there you go, thanks for playing.

[ThrasherCub]

I disagree with all of you. Communism is a waste of time, but so is capitalism. If you don't like werewolves, why are you on werewolf.com. and paganism is a relgion. it's just one that nobody agrees with anymore.

1- You have offered no reason to say communism is a waste of time (NOTHING is as big of a waste of time as equality, right?)
2- You're currently reaping the fruits of capitalism, you oblivious twit.
3- I love werewolves. I also believe they exist. Piss off.
4- Look up paganism. It is not a religion.
5- Many people agree with the ideas of paganism. People who actually know about it just dislike the many practitioners and followers of pagan religions who are utterly uneducated on the subject.

You are a perfect case in point.


Edit: Here, now you don't have to look it up yourself. I even highlighted for you.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/ThrasherCub/pagan.png

"Attitude in." IN a religion. Not a religion itself. You have lost.

[DarkHunter]

Capitalism is the natural state of humanity. Personal gain, stratification.

If Paganism signified one, unified religion than the Odinists, Kemetics, Wiccans, Druids (who weren't Wiccans no matter how much Wiccans say they were), and Greek mythology revivalists (mainly reviving Pan who they construe to be the same as Cerounous (the case might be made, I don't know;I probably spelled that horribly). They aren't the same religions, obviously. They are along the same class/grouping of religions, but they aren't the same. Thus Paganism is an umbrella term, not a true religion.

[ThrasherCub]

I asked a friend earlier why in the world people think paganism is a religion, and I actually got an answer.

There's this trend now of just making your own pagan religion by taking different myths and traditions and just mashing them together into a dysfunctional Frankenstein faith.

Obviously it doesn't have a name since you made it up, so when people ask what religion you are most people will just say they're pagan, not saying that "paganism" is their religion, but rather describing their religion in one word - specifically that they believe in multiple gods and are implying that it is primitive or nature-based.

So the belief that paganism is a religion is a misunderstanding of statements made by people who don't know what they're doing.

"Paganism is a religion" has a family tree reaching back to multiple brands of Stupid.

I love it.

[The Dragon-King]

Look, if I'm wrong then so be it. However, I was merely stating that if you consider anarchism government, then you must consider paganism a religion. It falls under the same principle.
And Thrasher, I wasn't refering to anyone in paricular when I said that if you hated werewolves why you were on werewolf.com, I was just saying that it is stupid to be on a website that has something you hate in its name.
And lastly Thrasher, I am NOT reaping the fruits of capitalism. I am at school. The "fuits of capitalism" rotted a long time for my family.

[Faolan]

Look, if I'm wrong then so be it. However, I was merely stating that if you consider anarchism government, then you must consider paganism a religion. It falls under the same principle.

How on Earth can you say that? We just showed you the definition of the word "Pagan" yet your still classifying it as a solitary religion? Paganism is as stated before an umbrella term for any number of faiths that are categorize as anything outside of Abraham. Furthermore "Anarchism" doesn't work as a system of government, it is a state of no government. This can only work on the most smallest of levels however even then a form of government will arise. That is just how civilization works. True anarchism is then thus complete self reliance, meaning you provide every aspect of your life and thus your needs by your own power. You grow your own crop, you raise your own cattle, you protect your own belongings and furthermore you will have to have no reason to keep money. Keep this in mind as well, once you have a family, and better yet your neighbors have their own families, a system of government will rise regardless because then these families will dispute about what is "theirs".


And Thrasher, I wasn't refering to anyone in paricular when I said that if you hated werewolves why you were on werewolf.com, I was just saying that it is stupid to be on a website that has something you hate in its name.
And lastly Thrasher, I am NOT reaping the fruits of capitalism. I am at school. The "fuits of capitalism" rotted a long time for my family.

No one here hates "werewolves"... We hate people who call themselves real "werewolves" yet can't be willing to prove it. That aside you are in school, that school (which I'm assuming is a public facility) is paid by your families taxes, and thus is also paid by the "fruits of Capitalism". Thats right, for every dollar you spend on video games and porn thats more money from taxes and also from the taxes in the stock market is given back to the state (or federal) to pay for your schools, public services, and protection. If you so hate the system of capitalism in this country then leave the country and find citizenship elsewhere.

[MorganaFang]

And lastly Thrasher, I am NOT reaping the fruits of capitalism. I am at school. The "fuits of capitalism" rotted a long time for my family.

No you still are, the computer was paid for the benefit of your education.

Whether you paid for it or not is irrellevant, someone did. It was not earned through some fight or barter system.

Also there is always something that you still bought, for instance the clothes you wear, the hair cut, hair style, the ideal of anarchism being cool, pretty much everything in the USA (even anywhere else) is benefiting from capitalism.
If you don't understand that then you probably don't understand what true anarchy is. Because in order to know something you're in favor of you must be intimately aware of what your oposition is about.

[ThrasherCub]

Look, if I'm wrong then so be it. However, I was merely stating that if you consider anarchism government, then you must consider paganism a religion. It falls under the same principle.

And I explained that anarchism is NOT a government.

Let me say it again.

ANARCHY IS NOT A GOVERNMENT

So thank you for agreeing that paganism isn't a religion, just like anarchy isn't a government.

And Thrasher, I wasn't refering to anyone in paricular when I said that if you hated werewolves why you were on werewolf.com, I was just saying that it is stupid to be on a website that has something you hate in its name.
The people here DON'T hate werewolves. We hate idiots who think they're werewolves.

There's a difference. Pull your head out.


And lastly Thrasher, I am NOT reaping the fruits of capitalism. I am at school. The "fuits of capitalism" rotted a long time for my family.

Are you naked, dying of starvation and living under a bridge?

If the answer to any of the above is "no," then you are currently enjoying the result of capitalism.

I can't believe how entirely ignorant you are. Go away.

[Anarchistwarrior]

By definition, anarchy is not a government. Fortunately, I have only heard a few people refer to an "anarchist state", so I haven't had to correct too many people in my short life. A government, by definition, governs (i.e., controls) people. Anarchy does not. Hahaha, perhaps anarchy should be considered not a type/ of government, but a level. That is, 0%. Heh.

As for the near impossibility of escaping capitalism, well, that's pretty obvious. The economy is, fundamentally, what defines a society: the definition and relationship of classes, the relations of trade. That said, you can form economic systems outside of the capitalist system - there is, in every Western country, a secret world of real anarchists: hitchhiking, squatting, growing their own food, making their own music, stealing, running, evading, fighting, and helping each other out.

No one can fully live up to their ideals, but people can try. I mean, you can say that DK isn't living up to his ideals, but, well, he may be closer to them than you are: as communists, I assume that you believe in authority, and at least one person said that they would even fight against their own communist ideals? Haha, that sounds an awful lot like the mainstream communists in Spain that fought against a communist revolution because Spain wasn't ready - which, haha, lead to Franco taking power for decades. I can see a parallel in the United States, where many people who believe one thing choose to sit back while someone or something they don't like is installed.

In any case, I'm not gonna pretend I'm living to the perfect ideal of anarchy, but I am trying to get there, recognizing hypocrisies and correcting them wherever I can. Besides, if you do some stuff to fight the state, you're doing a lot more than other people. Going to protests, stealing food, helping out at a soup kitchen, and so on are good stuff, and, yeah, you're paying rent at a house - everyone has to! You're paying for food - everyone has to! (That said, if you steal some of it, that's a small attack on capitalism.) You're working - everyone has to! (That said, you can steal from your workplace, too, if it's a corporate shithole.)

I can only wonder: how many of you that have critiqued DK also perform politically important actions? If you don't because you're apathetic, then excuse if me I don't sympathize with you having given up on the possibility of change - if you can live with oppression, cruelty, systemic violence, and poverty without feeling a need to wake up and fight back, then go ahead, I guess, and don't be angry when the revolution forgets you as much as you've forgotten the people. If you haven't done anything because you're not brave enough, well, work on it; bravery can be learned. If you don't because you're against those tactics, then cobble together some tactics of your own that actually work. And if you don't do what I described because you don't share my ideals - equality, freedom - then may we see each other on opposite sides someday!

Oh, and finally: paganism is an umbrella term for a variety of religions, belief systems, sets of traditions, and various other things, and it's one of those words that is hard to define without someone taking issue with you over it. :)

[ThrasherCub]

I can only wonder: how many of you that have critiqued DK also perform politically important actions?

I can only wonder why correcting someone who made statements that don't make sense to anyone educated warrants us get questioned.

Either way I do my part in order to create a Will-centered society, the necessary precursor to the state of society I ultimately aim for.

[Faolan]

Anarch, personally I hear what you are saying. However I must say the main reason people don't act out politically is that it's not out of fear entirely, but also out of shear laziness. I hear people spouting on and on about how they don't like something in our government (local or otherwise) however they do squat about it. Now I am not going to spell out what I personally do in turn because I don't need to defend myself on this issue. I do wish however that more people would wise up and use their own constitutional rights in this nation (USA) of ours to make a change. Heck you can cause a change right now if you make enough phone calls and letters to your congressmen.

Off subject, the main reason I guess people have been hard on DK is obvious. He has constantly grated on the nerves of those around him with his assumptions about his tr00 w3r3ness.

[Anarchistwarrior]

You should read up on the Situationist International! You've got to question everything, criticize everything, criticize everyone on all things - particularly yourself! In any case, I think my question was fair: do you think revolution, talk revolution, or make revolution? We can only speculate about DK, 'cause I don't think he's claimed to have firebombed a police station yet, but I am trying to think positively: he organizes strikes against his school, is vegan, steals groceries every chance he gets, graffitis revolutionary messages in alleyways, attacks every injustice he sees, disobeys laws that don't make sense to him, doesn't buy CDs that come from major record labels, and MORE.

And, also, DK: if you don't do these things, you should! Hell, we all should, and a lot more. We always have room for improvement. Haha.

EDIT: just caught the post above me! It wasn't there when I started writing. :)

Okay, his tr00 w3r3ness obviously doesn't have empirical truth to it. But, frankly, I don't really care if he wants to believe he's a werewolf or not, if it makes him happy. Personally, I believe that, in my past life, I was a Japanese soldier, born in the 1920s, that fought in World War II in the theatre of Indochina. Do I have shred of evidence? No. Do I care? No! It makes me happy. Hahaha, perhaps it IS annoying that he constantly goes on about it, but whatever. I don't believe him, but it doesn't bother me.

Also, as I said: apathy is the worst. I am going to have to question your tactics if you are writing Congressmen, but I can accept that it has a place. Do I consider it particularly effective? No. Do I consider it enough? No. But it's something. That's a good start. However, it's also lazy to be at one level of political activity, and say, "Well, man! I sure am doing all I need to do now. I can sit back and feel self-righteous!" I will use the example of a vegetarian. She believes in animal rights, so she stops eating meat. Sweet! Now she never has to worry about animal rights again. Hell, go a step further: she's vegan! Now she really never has to worry again. A step further: she pickets fur farms and all that jazz. SWEET. NOW SHE NEVER HAS TO WORRY AGAIN. NOTHING ELSE BADS HAPPENS TO ANIMALS EVER.

My point is that she is NEVER doing enough. None of us EVER do enough. We have to recognize this, and constantly challenge everything, especially ourselves. We also have to be willing to accept criticism and challenges from others.

[ThrasherCub]

You've got to question everything, criticize everything, criticize everyone on all things - particularly yourself!
I like that the only one here who doesn't appear to be questioning lots of stuff is DK, the guy you keep sticking up for.

do you think revolution, talk revolution, or make revolution?
All of the above. Just because it's not loud in-your-face and likely to fail doesn't mean it's not there.

But, frankly, I don't really care if he wants to believe he's a werewolf or not, if it makes him happy.
The problem is he seems to think others should acknowledge his were-ness too.



And why to I get the intense feeling I do a lot more than you do?

[Anarchistwarrior]

Hahaha. I tend to stick up for underdogs. This actually might be a failing, but, heh, I don't know. He's a seventeen-year-old that identifies as an anarchist, and I suppose I feel affinity with him, being also that. And, while I don't think I am, I could very well be defending him beyond the point of logic. So, until he reenters the conversation - which he probably will, tomorrow, during the school day - I shall not be mentioning him again.

And I don't mean to criticize your form of revolution any more than anyone else's, but its necessary to criticize everyone, while, at the same time, offering them some critical support.

In any case, I think this thread might have gone a bit off-topic, too political? I am partially to blame, of course, so I think I'll back off from this one.

[The Dragon-King]

Thank you, AnarchistWarrior, for your support. I am in your debt.
Faolan, I can't prove anything without somebody telling me that, if it's a picture, that it was doctored, or if it was in words, that I made it up, just like you can't prove that we (werewolves) do not exist for the same reason.
These "fruits of capitalism" everyone talks about is a load of crap. capitalism is the rich robbing from the poor and putting the money in their own pockets, and so is democracy.
What paganism is does not matter, what matters is what people believe it is. That is the basis of all religion: belief. So, that said, if somebody believes that paganism is a religion, then it is a religion.
Lastly, I don't want people to acknowledge my wereness, I merely do not want them to call me a moron for my beliefs.

[UNODRAGONE]

Thank you, AnarchistWarrior, for your support. I am in your debt.
Faolan, I can't prove anything without somebody telling me that, if it's a picture, that it was doctored, or if it was in words, that I made it up, just like you can't prove that we (werewolves) do not exist for the same reason.
These "fruits of capitalism" everyone talks about is a load of crap. capitalism is the rich robbing from the poor and putting the money in their own pockets, and so is democracy.
What paganism is does not matter, what matters is what people believe it is. That is the basis of all religion: belief. So, that said, if somebody believes that paganism is a religion, then it is a religion.
Lastly, I don't want people to acknowledge my wereness, I merely do not want them to call me a moron for my beliefs.


Couldn't resisit....I believe I am God, now bow down to me :) I completely agree with you not wanting someone to call you a moron for your beliefs, but what you must understand is when you state your a true werewolf, the members here are going to group you in the category of idiot adolescent trying to seek attention because that is what all the "true werewolves" here have done. If your a werewolf, it needs no proof to anyone seeing how a group of strangers should not matter to you, and it needs no defense, I'd be damned if I'm going to sit here and defend my beliefs because I shouldn't have to, there MINE no one has the right to tell someone what they should or shouldn't believe or whether they are right or wrong except God and even him I question on that one with the whole free will thing. In any case, you have stated your a werewolf, leave it at that if you hope to gain any ounce of respect on here, people will try to tear you apart for it if you fight them on it and there is no reason for you to fight them, the only person whose opinion should matter to you is your own. :wavey:

[Anarchistwarrior]

Totally agree with the above.

And paganism isn't religion. It is very possible - likely - that a few people have a few very set ideas, and call themselves the Church of Paganism or whatever, but that doesn't mean anyone should consider paganism a religion any more.

[UNODRAGONE]

Totally agree with the above.

And paganism isn't religion. It is very possible - likely - that a few people have a few very set ideas, and call themselves the Church of Paganism or whatever, but that doesn't mean anyone should consider paganism a religion any more.

Get your flame gear ready :)

[Anarchistwarrior]

Hahahaha. I thought that, in THAT particular statement, I'm agreeing with basically everyone else? :p

[Tempest]

I can only wonder: how many of you that have critiqued DK also perform politically important actions?

I vote. Which is more change than your petty thefts, graffiti drawings, and fires can ever provoke.


What paganism is does not matter, what matters is what people believe it is. That is the basis of all religion: belief. So, that said, if somebody believes that paganism is a religion, then it is a religion.


This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. Just because someone believes in something does not make it true. Some people believe that the prosecution of the Jews in WWII was a conspiracy and never happened (with my luck you will be one of these people). Does that make it true? Nope. I don't know why I bother with you people. You're so dense.

[The Dragon-King]

Look everyone, I don't care what any of you say: I don't agree with anything any of you have said, except AnarchistWarrior. Oh, and Anarchist, how long have you been an anarchist. Just wondering, because I've been anarchist since I was 12.
UNO, nobody's opinion matters to me, with the exception of me and my girlfriend, and she believes I'm a werewolf, so that's all that matters. And, by the way, what you said was what I was saying. Nobody has a right to call anybody else a moron. I have called nobody here a moron and you will never see me call anybody a moron.
And FYI Tempest not only do I believe that the persecution of the Jews was real, I resent the fact that the Nazis (who, by the way, would not have liked me) killed them. And I don't appreciate being called dense by someone who doesn't even know me.

[ThrasherCub]

These "fruits of capitalism" everyone talks about is a load of crap.
I don't want to be arrested. Every day you go without me hitting you directly in the side of the head is a day in which you're enjoying one of the benefits of our capitalist society.

What paganism is does not matter, what matters is what people believe it is.
I believe you can fly, and that by not flying you are insulting God. Please jump off of your nearest bridge. Failure to do so would indicate that what matters is not what people believe, but what is real. And I know you'd never go back on your word.

Now start jumping.

That is the basis of all religion: belief.
I told you to look up "religion" and you appear to have failed to do so. Here's the definition:

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Paganism does not have set beliefs on anything as it is merely, and I'm quoting this from the dictionary too, a spirit or attitude in religious or moral questions.

The definition of religion clearly shows that paganism does not count. Hell, the definition of PAGANISM clearly shows that it's not a religion.

Stop the ignorance.

Lastly, I don't want people to acknowledge my wereness, I merely do not want them to call me a moron for my beliefs.
If you didn't want people to acknowledge it you wouldn't have brought it up. Simple as that.

Look everyone, I don't care what any of you say
Then go away.

Oh, and Anarchist, how long have you been an anarchist. Just wondering, because I've been anarchist since I became an angsty teen with no understanding of how anything in society works.
Fixed.

Nobody has a right to call anybody else a moron.
Free speech and my honest opinion. I have the right to call a moron a moron. If you don't like it you have the right to go away.

And FYI Tempest not only do I believe that the persecution of the Jews was real, I resent the fact that the Nazis (who, by the way, would not have liked me) killed them. And I don't appreciate being called dense by someone who doesn't even know me.
But you ARE fucking dense. I'm not even sure you understood the point of her statement.

[Anarchistwarrior]

To Tempest: as Emma Goldman said, "If voting actually changed anything, they'd make it illegal." I am not certain which country you are from, but if it is the United States, than you are voting for the Democrats - pro-business, neoliberal, support existing economic structures - or the Republicans - pro-business, neoliberal, support economic structures. If you are Canadian, similar differences can be seen between Liberals and Conservatives, and even the NDP largely agree with the status quo. If you are British, then you've got Labour and the Conservatives - a similar situation. Frankly, almost every liberal democracy is in a similar boat.

Voting is the most impotent form of democracy you can take. Real democracy is lobbying, protesting, picketing, writing letters, graffiti, symbolically breaking the state, and more. The American Revolution would never have happened without a hell of a lot of criminal activity; Gandhi's supporters broke laws everywhere; the Jews in Nazi Germany frequently stole food in order to survive. Heh, I wouldn't consider the Jews thieves; the real thieves are the ones that prevented them having enough food in the first place, and, even if it was only a small attack on that system of organized thievery, then it was at least something.

In any case: I think that my deed will cause a thousand times more change than your vote possibly could. In the example of the Ukraine in 2004, a man was elected - a reactionary, bad man who wanted to get closer ties to Russia. The other guy isn't all that much better, but he is a bit better, and the way HE got into power was massive demonstrations, general strikes, criminality, a few isolated fires, and more.

And for DK! I've been considering myself an anarchist for a little bit over a year, I guess. I was, originally, a no-good commie, but it came to pass that Marxism just didn't sit right with me. Having worked with the youth wing of the Communist Party of Canada, I left that group with a bad, authoritarian taste in my mouth. As I read into anarchy more, I became more... in line with that kind of thinking.

[ThrasherCub]

"If voting actually changed anything, they'd make it illegal." I am not certain which country you are from, but if it is the United States, than you are voting for the Democrats - pro-business, neoliberal, support existing economic structures - or the Republicans - pro-business, neoliberal, support economic structures.
You forget that some people actually like the idea of pro-business neoliberals who support economic structures.

And you're right, voting alone won't get us a new system since it's part of the system. But it CAN get us closer to a stage in which we'll be ready to leave this system behind.

You're blindly fighting a system too big to overthrow rather than using it to your advantage. You're just another revolutionary which will do nothing but give your group a bad name, thereby making it harder to reach your goal.

Real democracy is lobbying, protesting, picketing, writing letters, graffiti, symbolically breaking the state, and more. The American Revolution would never have happened without a hell of a lot of criminal activity; Gandhi's supporters broke laws everywhere; the Jews in Nazi Germany frequently stole food in order to survive.
The revolutionaries in the American Revolution were greater in number and seemed to have a better grasp on things than you, Gandhi's supporters actually understood what they were doing, and the Jews would have died of starvation.

Your examples aren't nearly as like in nature to your silly fight as you think. Read more.

In any case: I think that my deed will cause a thousand times more change than your vote possibly could.
Correct. It will reaffirm the idea that anarchists are simply rebellious teens without any respect for people's property or feelings. Way to go.


Tell me, what would you do if you found that someone had covered your house, car, and possessions with "I *heart* Bush!" labels?

[---Arawn---]

Are you naked, dying of starvation and living under a bridge?

If the answer to any of the above is "no," then you are currently enjoying the result of capitalism.


I would just like to add: if he replied "yes" to any of those question it would still be the result of capitalism. You know, capitalism makes you richer and everyone else poorer... So when you see hungry, naked, and homeless people, it's also the result of the capitalism...
Although communism wouldn't change much that...

[ThrasherCub]

It could be the result of capitalism. It could also just be the result of being an idiot, in which case being naked under a bridge would probably be the best-case scenario in several other societies.

[Faolan]

Thank you, AnarchistWarrior, for your support. I am in your debt.
Faolan, I can't prove anything without somebody telling me that, if it's a picture, that it was doctored, or if it was in words, that I made it up, just like you can't prove that we (werewolves) do not exist for the same reason.

Alright then. But did I PERSONALY ever say to you that you need to prove it? No I have not. I made an observation and stated it so don't feed words into my mouth boy, I've been more then courteous so far.


These "fruits of capitalism" everyone talks about is a load of crap. capitalism is the rich robbing from the poor and putting the money in their own pockets, and so is democracy.


That maybe your perceptive but your statement is not fact, it's your opinion. So thus being an opinionated statement it becomes subject to all sorts of responses. If you wish to bring more into your subject then do so with facts, otherwise be prepared for other people's opinionated responses.


What paganism is does not matter, what matters is what people believe it is. That is the basis of all religion: belief. So, that said, if somebody believes that paganism is a religion, then it is a religion.

I see it isn't getting through to you. What I said is clearly this... the subject of "paganism" is as catch all as a statement as the word "Occult". This does not make it a religion. Faith in something is just that "Faith!", not some religious doctrine or church.


Lastly, I don't want people to acknowledge my wereness, I merely do not want them to call me a moron for my beliefs.

No offense but from what I have observed in this thread, other threads, and from other members of this forum you seem to go out of your way to defend yourself on this subject. I'm not attacking you, I'm just telling you and anyone who cares to listen what I see.

Voting is the most impotent form of democracy you can take. Real democracy is lobbying, protesting, picketing, writing letters, graffiti, symbolically breaking the state, and more. The American Revolution would never have happened without a hell of a lot of criminal activity

I can't help but agree with you full hardly about this. First of all, just to let you know. To not vote, and thus not to exercise on of the founding principles of democracy is in my opinion an outrage. As for the rest (lobbying, protesting, etc...) they are important as well. I'm however not one to break the laws unless of course I see the law is unjust. I'm glad to hear that you have a grasp on this issue. However unlike the Sons of Liberty, we don't have the advantage of a more recognizable enemy. Neither do we have their discipline. On the individual level there is the will, the way however isn't clear as you may think it is. Now I'm not trying to discourage you, just trying to clear things up from my point of view.

[DarkHunter]

To think this was briefly about religion.

[Anarchistwarrior]

Ah, I may vote... Just to say I did. If it doesn't make a difference anyway (which I am certain it does not), it's not gonna hurt either way. I won't be of voting age for a few more months, anyway, so I'll worry then. I will be voting for the least of the evils - haha, or, if one of the crazy-hilarious parties runs in this riding, then I may vote for them. Like the Animal Rights Alliance. :)

To Thrashercub! Anarchists and autonomists are more numerous in number than you think! A little-known fact: more relief for victims of Hurricane Katrina has been provided by local anarchist organizations then any other group, local, federal, or foreign. The protests at every G8 summit, at Montebello in August, at London this past September, in the wake of the closing of Ungdomshuset by the Danish government, and in classic examples like Seattle, Hong Kong, Mar del Plata, Miami, and Quebec City are showing that anarchists are gaining numbers and gaining strength: if they were not, then the authorities would not consider us as much of a threat, and we wouldn't hear about the "Black Block International Terrorist Organization" or the Green Scare.

Many Jews did die of starvation in the ghettos of Poland and Germany, before concentration camps came into the picture in a big way. Most Jews that didn't starve had to supplement their food supplies through relentless stealing! You should read Maus.

Gandhi, while a hero in my eyes, did not win India's independence through pacifism alone. Before the British got distracted with a certain German dicator, and had to pull some of their resources from Asia to Europe, Gandhi's supporters were making absolutely no progress, while the real threats to the British Empire before that point had come from Ghadar and Juguntar, armed revolutionary organizations. Even during and after World War II, pacifism ALONE could not have secured Indian independence just like that; the Indian National Army and Azad Hind government, while deplorable and pseudo-fascist, posed a military threat that allowed the British to see Gandhi as less of a threat and more of someone to give grudging respect to.

I disagree strongly with the accusation that I have no respect for feelings. With feelings in particular, I try to be very empathic person, but capitalist economic systems are neither empathic with me or with others, and are a cause, if not the main cause, of unhappiness in almost every single person that I know. The homeless, the chronically poor, the kids stuck in deadend jobs - even if they don't consider themselves anarchists, or even political whatsoever, they tend to support my ideals (most, at least), and agree that what I stand for would be, at the very least, a lot better than what we have today. It's this system, and those on the top, that don't respect the feelings of others: desires to have reliable access to information, good food, clean air, green spaces, useful education, leisure time, etc.

As for property, well: property is theft, as Proudhon said. Classical liberalism is entirely based around the concept of property, the right for one person to have when another does not, and the right to do whatever he will with what he has. This is incredibly harmful, and it SHOULD be challenged everywhere! There is a difference between property and a possession, mind you. Your possessions you actually use, basically, and, typically, they are harder to share. The shirt you wear fairly often is a possession, as is your backpack, whereas your couch is to some extent yours, but maybe it should be shared with your friends, or even with couchsurfers passing through. It's a blurry line, of course, but common sense usually works. I don't mind trespassing on a private beach; how can you own any of the Earth that should belong to us all? On the other hand, I'm going to ask my friend before I drink her juice or smoke her pot; chances are she'll give it to me, just as I'll give some to her, if she has the courtesy to ask for some of mine.

Bush labels on my stuff? I think I'd be a bit upset, I guess, if they were possessions I use everyday. If it happened to some warehouse I happened to own somewhere far away, well, I'd be unhappy with the political sentiments of the artist, but whatever. Not a big deal. In any case, I don't write graffiti on houses. It's bad form. :p

EDIT: Two things!

Darkhunter is right. Maybe we should make another thread, in politics, or tie it into the existing "Anarchy" thread, because this is quite off-topic.

Secondly: I'm not just another revolutionary. No one is "just" anything, and thinking in those sorts of terms masks the diversity between different human beings. "He's just fucked up," "she's just a slut," "he's just another another politician"... These don't help anyone form a critical and developed understanding of another person.

[DarkHunter]

Ah, I may vote... Just to say I did. If it doesn't make a difference anyway (which I am certain it does not), it's not gonna hurt either way. I won't be of voting age for a few more months, anyway, so I'll worry then. I will be voting for the least of the evils - haha, or, if one of the crazy-hilarious parties runs in this riding, then I may vote for them. Like the Animal Rights Alliance. :)

To Thrashercub! Anarchists and autonomists are more numerous in number than you think! A little-known fact: more relief for victims of Hurricane Katrina has been provided by local anarchist organizations then any other group, local, federal, or foreign. The protests at every G8 summit, at Montebello in August, at London this past September, in the wake of the closing of Ungdomshuset by the Danish government, and in classic examples like Seattle, Hong Kong, Mar del Plata, Miami, and Quebec City are showing that anarchists are gaining numbers and gaining strength: if they were not, then the authorities would not consider us as much of a threat, and we wouldn't hear about the "Black Block International Terrorist Organization" or the Green Scare.

Many Jews did die of starvation in the ghettos of Poland and Germany, before concentration camps came into the picture in a big way. Most Jews that didn't starve had to supplement their food supplies through relentless stealing! You should read Maus.

Gandhi, while a hero in my eyes, did not win India's independence through pacifism alone. Before the British got distracted with a certain German dicator, and had to pull some of their resources from Asia to Europe, Gandhi's supporters were making absolutely no progress, while the real threats to the British Empire before that point had come from Ghadar and Juguntar, armed revolutionary organizations. Even during and after World War II, pacifism ALONE could not have secured Indian independence just like that; the Indian National Army and Azad Hind government, while deplorable and pseudo-fascist, posed a military threat that allowed the British to see Gandhi as less of a threat and more of someone to give grudging respect to.

I disagree strongly with the accusation that I have no respect for feelings. With feelings in particular, I try to be very empathic person, but capitalist economic systems are neither empathic with me or with others, and are a cause, if not the main cause, of unhappiness in almost every single person that I know. The homeless, the chronically poor, the kids stuck in deadend jobs - even if they don't consider themselves anarchists, or even political whatsoever, they tend to support my ideals (most, at least), and agree that what I stand for would be, at the very least, a lot better than what we have today. It's this system, and those on the top, that don't respect the feelings of others: desires to have reliable access to information, good food, clean air, green spaces, useful education, leisure time, etc.

As for property, well: property is theft, as Proudhon said. Classical liberalism is entirely based around the concept of property, the right for one person to have when another does not, and the right to do whatever he will with what he has. This is incredibly harmful, and it SHOULD be challenged everywhere! There is a difference between property and a possession, mind you. Your possessions you actually use, basically, and, typically, they are harder to share. The shirt you wear fairly often is a possession, as is your backpack, whereas your couch is to some extent yours, but maybe it should be shared with your friends, or even with couchsurfers passing through. It's a blurry line, of course, but common sense usually works. I don't mind trespassing on a private beach; how can you own any of the Earth that should belong to us all? On the other hand, I'm going to ask my friend before I drink her juice or smoke her pot; chances are she'll give it to me, just as I'll give some to her, if she has the courtesy to ask for some of mine.

Bush labels on my stuff? I think I'd be a bit upset, I guess, if they were possessions I use everyday. If it happened to some warehouse I happened to own somewhere far away, well, I'd be unhappy with the political sentiments of the artist, but whatever. Not a big deal. In any case, I don't write graffiti on houses. It's bad form. :p

I'm sorry, I'm not a moderator, but what the hell? Isn't this a political rant?

Go over to China if you don't like private property. Or maybe Russia (they'll probably be communist again sooner or later). Travel back in time to ancient Mesopotamia where you didn't own land, you simply worked and lived because the government was nice enough to let you.

All people have the opportunity to acquire property. Its not as if its something only promised to some specific class of people? Do the Elite of society tend to have more than others? Yes but most of these Communistic rants neglect to mention the fact that at some point, a man worked his ass off to own that. The very ideal of the "proletariat" being REWARDED and becoming something more than just a working man. But that never enters in.

Most anarchists would be eaten alive in a world that was truly anarchistic. Thats just a simple fact. You could argue these people have "strength in numbers" but then doesn't that suggest the eventual formation anew of a Government? I'm all for personal responsibility, but complete and total anarchy is a joke and a dream, same as communism.

Political pipe dreams are as foolish as Spiritual Pipe Dreams. Stop playing to ideals. Concentrate on changing your Subjective Universe and if you are strong willed, the Objective Universe will follow suit.

[Anarchistwarrior]

I will answer your post in the "Anarchy" thread of the Politics forum. :)

[ThrasherCub]

Doesn't matter much since I imagine this thread will have part or all of it moved to the political section, possibly merged with your anarchy thread.

I might reply more fully later - to be blunt I feel somewhat like I'm talking to a 9 year old since you'll completely miss the point of things said in direct response to things YOU said, thereby indicating that you don't even know what point you're trying to make.

Now, if there's so damn many anarchists, why can't you get a little done though our current political system? If there's so many of you then there should be enough to get things put on ballots. If you instate more liberal ideas and practices you'll be able to move this society closer to an anarchistic society, making the leap to being government-free easier and less scary.

[---Arawn---]

Ah, I remember when I was young and believed in anarchy. It is so beautiful, where everyone cares with everyone, and no government is needed :~
Then I grew up and saw that it is completely utopic and just bullshit... Like any governement still not put into practice (communism included [if you don't know, communism never existed in modern countries, just socialism])...

Don't worry, those anarchs will eventually have a job and learn how good is to have YOUR money and YOUR stuff, and how good is to be protected by a governement...

[Tempest]

First of all, yes voting DOES indeed change things. Perhaps you need to be able to see the bigger picture in order to see this, but yes, a single vote matters. The high school I graduated from (isn't there a word for this? I can't think of it) is so poor that they can't afford bussing and, if the next levy doesn't pass, will have to merge with another school just to be able to pay the bills. Now why do you think that that school is so poor? It's because people voted against the levy. And people who were for the levy didn't bother voting. I think one time it was 2% away from passing (this thing has failed at least 6 times). Voting makes a difference. Had those people who were too lazy to show up to vote showed up, maybe my school wouldn't be so poor, cutting classes and lessening the education of an entire generation of my town. Oh and education, libraries, all those good things you learn about anarchy from? These things, my friend, are the benefits you reap from the capitalism you hate.

A little-known fact: more relief for victims of Hurricane Katrina has been provided by local anarchist organizations then any other group, local, federal, or foreign.

Where is your source for this? I find your random throwing out of "facts" with no sources amusing. Also, I definately intend to ask my boyfriend about this, who was one of those volunteers for the Hurricane Katrina relief project.

Many Jews did die of starvation in the ghettos of Poland and Germany, before concentration camps came into the picture in a big way. Most Jews that didn't starve had to supplement their food supplies through relentless stealing! You should read Maus.

Why did you bother mentioning this? We covered this and it has nothing to do with anarchy. If everyone stole food guess what? Human society would collapse and we would all starve. Laws exist because of morals, and morals exist because we need them as a species to live productive lives (I learned this yesterday in my Ethics class, I'm so proud that I can apply my knowledge).

I disagree strongly with the accusation that I have no respect for feelings.

Yes because randomly stealing things from people's businesses (which they invested more money and time in than you can know) would NEVER hurt anyone's feelings. Again I see your complete lack of the ability to see the bigger picture. It's not a necessary evil, do not even try to give me that. You aren't "sticking it to the man" by stealing and burning buildings. FYI the government DOES NOT CARE. Guess who does care though? The owner of that building you burned or who's products you took. "Well the government does it" is not an excuse either. Yes let us replicate on a small scale what the government we hate and wish to overthrow is doing. (sarcasm)

As for property, well: property is theft, as Proudhon said. Classical liberalism is entirely based around the concept of property, the right for one person to have when another does not, and the right to do whatever he will with what he has. This is incredibly harmful, and it SHOULD be challenged everywhere!

Again, you are not going to challenge anything by stealing. NO ONE CARES. Except the one you took it from.

Darkhunter is right. Maybe we should make another thread, in politics, or tie it into the existing "Anarchy" thread, because this is quite off-topic.

YOU THINK??? Maybe you shouldn't have started a political rant in the Beliefs thread. And yes yes I know I am guilty for prodding along the discussion, so sue me (oh wait that would be using the democratic system...).

Basically you spew things that sound intelligent, superfically, but you don't know how to see the bigger picture, you don't know how to be realistic, and you don't know how to apply what you seem so sure of. Now, someone merge this with the anarchy thread so we can continue this conversation without further hyjacking this thread.

PS. Anarchy cannot work because it requires everyone in the entire area to be like-minded and that just won't happen. Ever.

PPS. Reading your posts is like reading long passages from a textbook. Makes me wonder if you actually are just quoting your textbooks to sound smart. Also you manage to talk a lot without actually saying anything. Meaning, you ramble on and on and yet provide little to no evidence or information relating to what you quoted.

[Anarchistwarrior]

I, personally, did not turn this into a political debate. There were elements of a political debate earlier, when Comrade Alexei mentioned that he was a communist, and the validity of being a communist and some kind of religious practioner were debated. At the beginning of the second or third page, anarchism was introduced into the discussion by Dragon King, and, perhaps foolhardily, I defended him after he was put under sustained flame attack. In any case, I am to blame for routinely saying fundamentally illogical things that no one likes to hear (haha), and that's why I agreed with Darkhunter when this was pointed out to me. As for the rest of your points, I'll be sure to reply in the "Anarchy" thread. :)

[Tempest]

As for the rest of your points, I'll be sure to reply in the "Anarchy" thread. :)

Why bother? This thread has been completely off-topic for 4 of 6 pages. Why stop now? Just let the mods merge the threads and keep things in sequential order by continuing the discussion here.

And you are correct, our communist friend should have never brought up communism in a Religion thread, Dragon King should never have started in on how capitalism doesn't work either, but you have contributed the most to this threads' derailing, with your huge and frequent posts. But anyway, the thread was derailed and it will be fixed. I'm guilty of pulling threads off-topic too so I can't be too mean to you :)

[Anarchistwarrior]

Hahaha. Okay, I WOULD have done that, but I was writing my huge, frequent post when you posted this. I agree, now, that I might as well have continued in this thread, but, well, it's done now. :p

[ThrasherCub]

PS. Anarchy cannot work because it requires everyone in the entire area to be like-minded and that just won't happen. Ever.

Hey look! Someone talking about anarchy who actually understands it - and it isn't me this time! WOO!

Everyone, think about that for a moment - That anarchy would require us to be much more like minded. Why do you think we have a government in the first place? Everyone had different ideas on what to do and how things should be done, and so at best no one worked together, but much more often people fought over who was right. The job of the government is to speak with authority and say "yes, this way is right." so we'll all shut up and work together.

Remember my example with the class project? You're in a group, there's two different ways of going about the project, the group is split in two as to which way is better, and each group is positive that they are right. Since it's a group project it obviously won't work unless you all do it together, so how do you propose that this is solved without resorting to some very simple form of government?

[Rainheart]

What Thrasher says is true. No form of government is perfect when taken from paper and put to the real test, but to have absolutely no government whatsoever is neither tangible nor sensible. There must be some level of order in human life for there to be a level of productivity. Order is also a part of human nature, no matter how little or how much it shows in each individual.