Religious conflicts

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

I have been doing some thinking about all those religious conflicts that has happened and are still raging. I noticed that most of the conflicts are between the jews, christians and muslims. Take for example the crusades, todays holy wars and the holocaust (although the last one never was a real conflict, only a massacre) But what I don't understand is why three religions which basicaly worship the same god have to constantly be at each others throats. The jews and christians both share there holy book, and the koran states that jews and christians have also recieved the word of god and should be treated with respect. So why do they fight? Is religion only used like som kind of political tool?:confused:

[ThrasherCub]

So why do they fight?
Because they're all 100% sure that they are right and therefore they're all 100% sure that everyone else is wrong, and this pisses off God. They're all too busy being "right" to think about how God might actually feel about killing someone because their version of "thou shalt not kill" is different than yours.

The Quran actually tells the Muslims to drive the heathen faiths into the ocean, Christians are trying to stamp down the ever-present influences of the devil, and the Jews are the chosen of God.

[J.L.R.]

Actually, the Holocaust had little to do with actual religion, and more so to Hitler's megalomaniacism. His parents were anti semetic and blamed all their nations woes on the Jews. This hatred blossomed in Hitler's mind. Early 20th century Germany was facing a terrible depression because of their loss in World War 1. The Jews, who were rather wealthy landholders, shop owners, were easy targets even though many of them were suffering along their other fellow Germans. There has always been a dangerous underlying antisemetic under current in Germany, and Germany's situation helped to bring things to a head. While Hitler did dabble in various religions to create his own "Master Religion for the master race" it had little to do actual existing religions...

The Crusades, as well as many of the conflicts today have little to do with Islam, Judaism, or Christianity, as it has to do with land and possession of land. During the Crusades, the city of Jerusalem of the site of many conflicts, where Muslims and Christians both won and lost the capital city several times. It is still a high tension spot, as all three religions claim ownership of the land. In reality, the Jews have the largest and more rightful claim as the original land was conquered and controled by the Jews until its capture by the Babylonians in, I believe 500 BCE. Muslims claim ownership because Mohammed was supposedly taken by Allah and brought to Jerusalem where he supposedly met Moses and Jesus of whom gave him the Quran. Historically there isn't any proof that Mohammed ever stepped foot in Jerusalem whether magically or physically. Christians of course lay some sort of claim, while not as strong as both Jews or Muslims because of the actions of Christ in those parts. In fact the only reason "Christians" got into the mix during the Crusades was because of the threat of Islam, of which by this time period was sweeping across Europe. It was dark times where each party was guilty of murderous acts.

In the end conflicts like this, even today, have little to do with actual belief, as it has to do with greed, of which affects all people and all religions regardless. One doesn't have to be a Muslim to be a murderer. Religion isn't to blame for twisted actions, but the perversness of some people's hearts...

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

In the end conflicts like this, even today, have little to do with actual belief, as it has to do with greed, of which affects all people and all religions regardless. One doesn't have to be a Muslim to be a murderer. Religion isn't to blame for twisted actions, but the perversness of some people's hearts...

Thanks, J.L.R. That actually made it a lot clearer to me.:)

[ThrasherCub]

Thanks, J.L.R. That actually made it a lot clearer to me.:)

Agreed. I always sucked with history so I could only address it from a purely religious stand point.

[J.L.R.]

In reality it is easy to blame religion as a means of creating violence. When you look at mammoth movements such as the Crusades, often considered a dark mark on the Christian's part, even though the Crusades in general had little to do with early Christian concepts, as Christ never once condoned His disciples to do violence. This is fully illustrated with Christ's rebuking of Peter after Peter cut the ear off of Malcus, a soldier who came to take Jesus prisoner. The Crusades, in reality was a response to a violent uprising of Islamic militantism that was quickly spreading across much of Europe. In short some of the early Muslim leaders were unbelievably violent men, who freely raided, enslaved, and murdered anyone they could come across. This isn't true of all Muslims of course, because there were noble Muslim warriors who faught for his people, but honored those who he captured, such as Salhudin, who not only was a great leader but a nobleman as well. However such nobleman were rare on both parties. Early reports sighted Muslims entering churches and blinding and butchering priests alive as they dragged their bleeding dying corpses out of the churches. When the Pope heard such atrocities he launched, and more often than not, unsuccessful crusades to reacapture much of the lands that were taken... While the warring religions certianly added color to these battles, such wars had been going on for thousands of years.
Look at Persians vs. Spartans/ Grecians. Goths vs. Romans.
Monguls vs. much of Europe... As said, while religious bias may add flavor, the reality is there are certain tribes of people who just don't get along, and THEY'VE never gotten along.

[ThrasherCub]

As said, while religious bias may add flavor, the reality is there are certain tribes of people who just don't get along, and THEY'VE never gotten along.
True, there are many peoples who would have the desire to fight regardless of religious view point. In those cases religion is mostly used as a way to validate (or further validate) their actions. If you tell yourself something for long enough you start to believe it, especially if you really want to believe it. And wouldn't you rather think of what you're doing as "cleansing the world for God" than "pillaging our crappy neighbors"?

[Rascaduanok]

The Quran actually tells the Muslims to drive the heathen faiths into the ocean
No it doesn’t. Provide sources to back up your spurious claim.

Lovecraft man: Christians and Jews only ‘share’ a holy book because the first Christians began their lives as Jews. Jews documented their nationalist history extensively (though most likely from their captivity in Babylon onwards, and thus drawing upon Babylonian myths and legends too) and certainly knew their religion thoroughly. They proved eloquent in these matters and consummate at exegesis, midrash and religious debate.

So when people presented Yeshua‘ (Jesus) as THE Messiah expected by the Jews they had a fight on their hands, not least of which because nothing in Judaism predicted a messiah who would die before emancipating them.

As I’ve stated, the earliest Christians naturally came from Jewish stock. Accordingly they drew upon Jewish history (they had to so that others would engage them in debate). Gentile Christians, therefore, had to subsume the entire Tanakh as their Old Testament in order to establish Jesus’ place within history — only to break him away from it.

[ThrasherCub]

No it doesn’t. Provide sources to back up your spurious claim.

Ta Ha 20.97:
He said: Begone then, surely for you it will be in this life to say, Touch (me) not; and surely there is a threat for you, which shall not be made to fail to you, and look at your god to whose worship you kept (so long); we will certainly burn it, then we will certainly scatter it a (wide) scattering in the sea.


You can have this one too:

The Cow 2.191:
And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[Rascaduanok]

Ta Ha 20.97:
He said: Begone then, surely for you it will be in this life to say, Touch (me) not; and surely there is a threat for you, which shall not be made to fail to you, and look at your god to whose worship you kept (so long); we will certainly burn it, then we will certainly scatter it a (wide) scattering in the sea.


You can have this one too:

The Cow 2.191:
And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Thought as much. Typical out of context quotations. The latter means nothing except, like the Bible, a record of events happening at the time. In that case, part of a declaration of war after repeated massacres by those opposed to the early muslim ummah (community) and attempts to extirpate them. I note how, like most people wanting to cast Islam in as negative a light as possible, you miss out THE VERY NEXT LINE:

“but if they stop then God is most forgiving and merciful… If they cease hostilities there can be no further hostility, except towards aggressors.”

As for the first quote, it simply relates the words of Moses to the Egyptians who wanted to oppress the Hebrews, but nice attempt to twist it. KTHANX BYE.

[ThrasherCub]

THE VERY NEXT LINE:

“but if they stop then God is most forgiving and merciful… If they cease hostilities there can be no further hostility, except towards aggressors.”

Meaning, if they convert then you don't have to kill them.

Your understanding is impeccable. :rolleyes: And for the record, I have no desire to cast Islam in a negative light.

[jordanhitler]

Meaning, if they convert then you don't have to kill them.

Your understanding is impeccable. :rolleyes: And for the record, I have no desire to cast Islam in a negative light.

Score one for the Christians... come on Muslims get back in the game!

Sure, there might be some negative things in the Qur'an, but its not like it has any more negativity in it that the bible, there are PLENTY of things you could find in the bible to shove any christian into a spiritual corner forcing him to go completely off topic into something that doesn't really make sense than compromise his own beliefs.

One could argue that despite what the Qur'an says in verse such and such or chapter so and so, Islam is about the unity and peace between humanity and the common goal to love and do good to one another and all that jazz. On the other hand, if that is the case, then why practice Islam at all knowing that people have different religions and beliefs if your goal is love, peace and unity knowing that selective religions can only lead to war and violence?

Just something to think about

[ThrasherCub]

Sure, there might be some negative things in the Qur'an, but its not like it has any more negativity in it that the bible
Not only that, but at least the Qur'an is honest about it. The Bible records a violent past, but the New Testament is all about love and goodness and that whole "turning the other cheek" thing. Lots of "good Christians" nowadays go against the teachings of the Bible pretty hard.

[Rascaduanok]

Yeah, but the old ‘…and you!’ argument is a logical fallacy and doesn’t deal with the topic under discussion.

[DarkHunter]

Christianity has just as bloody a history as Islam. They're both "missionary" religions, apparently. They happen to be religions that are missionary "By the Sword." Though again, this was probably more political and a means for control.

Islam and Christianity have magical places in history, being taken up by the most violent men and groups in history. Charlemagne, Vlad Tepes, various leaders of the KKK, Bloody Mary, King Philip, the Ottoman Turks, the Shiites and Sunnis (okay, Islam made them Shiites and Sunnis, but they're violent as hell over something political), and Torquemada. Hitler may have been Catholic at some point (though you can't blame Catholics for Hitler, because the Nazis really were doing their own Germanic neopaganism thing).

And I can't help but bring this up....have there ever been Satanists who've done stuff like this? No because idiotic mass murderers are by default not allowed in our religion.

[jordanhitler]

Yeah, but the old ‘…and you!’ argument is a logical fallacy and doesn’t deal with the topic under discussion.


Typical response to conceal your defeat

[Rascaduanok]

Typical response to conceal your defeat

:rolleyes: No, both you and DarkHunter have correctly noted that Christianity has also had a very bloody history. But that wasn’t the point under discussion. Under discussion was 2 extracts from the Qur’an seemingly signifying Islam’s bloody history.

How can you say what you have done in response to my saying I wasn’t going to do a childish mirror response of “So what? Christianity’s just as bad!”??? Ridiculous.

[jordanhitler]

:rolleyes: No, both you and DarkHunter have correctly noted that Christianity has also had a very bloody history. But that wasn’t the point under discussion. Under discussion was 2 extracts from the Qur’an seemingly signifying Islam’s bloody history.



First of all its not that big of deal, seconldy, yes, Islam does have a bloody history, hell, Islam has a bloody present! Ask me to back this up, go ahead, ask me.

[J.L.R.]

Christianity has just as bloody a history as Islam. They're both "missionary" religions, apparently. They happen to be religions that are missionary "By the Sword." Though again, this was probably more political and a means for control.

Islam and Christianity have magical places in history, being taken up by the most violent men and groups in history. Charlemagne, Vlad Tepes, various leaders of the KKK, Bloody Mary, King Philip, the Ottoman Turks, the Shiites and Sunnis (okay, Islam made them Shiites and Sunnis, but they're violent as hell over something political), and Torquemada. Hitler may have been Catholic at some point (though you can't blame Catholics for Hitler, because the Nazis really were doing their own Germanic neopaganism thing).

And I can't help but bring this up....have there ever been Satanists who've done stuff like this? No because idiotic mass murderers are by default not allowed in our religion.

I think I've already covered this, but bad people are bad people no matter the belief. Also note, you can't even compare the violence wrought in the Crusades and the Inquisition in comparison to the Islamic movement. Both were done out of ignorance, especially the Christians, as Jesus never said to butcher other people or force them to believe in Him... The Crusades, historically were fired off because of Islamic violence in the Holy Land.

When you consider that Crusades and Inquisition cost an estimate of little over 1,000,000 human lives give or take a thousand, in comparison to 10 + million butchered during the Ottoman Empire, there isn't much of a comparison. Shoot Sadam Hussien killed little over a million people, and he's secular...

Evil people have always abused power in order to do what they want. People bitch about the folks who've misused Christianity for their own gains, well what about the Emperor System in Japan, where countless Japanese lost their lives in WWII for the crazy crusade of their Emperor... Lets look at the Ceasors. They held almost god like power with their people, and many of them were corrupt.

You can't blame religion for the atrocities of the Communist governments in both China and Russia, both governments were anti religion, and yet the human condition wasn't resolved.

There are millions of good Muslims out there, and while I disagree with their religion, they aren't evil people.

We all have the power to make good or bad decisions, to do good or evil. Those who work evil will always try to find means to justify their actions. A theif blames society for his or her actions... a murderer blames the victim, a child molestor blames his mental state, or his parents, for his crimes. It is nothing new, and I'm sure there will be other quacks... Pat Robinson... Andrew Jackson... Osama bin Laden... who will use belief as a means to rally support, but always in the end, they will fall, and the few good, will remain...

Again, blaming religion is merely creating a scape goat. Put the blame where blame lies... human error...

[ThrasherCub]

There are millions of good Muslims out there, and while I disagree with their religion, they aren't evil people.

:beerchug: Agreed! Good people and bad people both come from all number of faiths. Though for me to say I "disagree" with their religion isn't quite right, but it's close enough. :)

[BoxedCat]

I'm gonna go ahead and jack this thread, seeing as how my roommate of 2 years is a Muslim. After having several candid discussions with him, I'm come to realize that most religion is based off of the same basic principles. When we watch CNN and see idiots proclaiming to be the prophets of Allah, he explains the mindset of the fanatics and how different it is when compared to the normal population.

Because they're all 100% sure that they are right and therefore they're all 100% sure that everyone else is wrong, and this pisses off God. They're all too busy being "right" to think about how God might actually feel about killing someone because their version of "thou shalt not kill" is different than yours.

The Quran actually tells the Muslims to drive the heathen faiths into the ocean, Christians are trying to stamp down the ever-present influences of the devil, and the Jews are the chosen of God.

Wow. Just wow. I hope you've saved a little bit of your rhetoric for the troo w3r3s, because that's where that sort of mindset comes from. The Koran is essentially the same as the Bible, outside of the New and Old Testament not being accepted as a result of historical ambiguities. Outside of the whole 6000-year earth creation thingy, of course. Well hell, at this point it all doesn't make sense, but at least we all follow the same moral code.......right????

[BoxedCat]

First of all its not that big of deal, seconldy, yes, Islam does have a bloody history, hell, Islam has a bloody present! Ask me to back this up, go ahead, ask me.

What religion was it that went ahead and asploded some big 'ol FBI building?

I ain't even touching the Crusades, y'all, those are, like, too, like, close to the present. My family is still in mourning over that stuff, so don't even think about bringing it up around me. I've got a whole cadre of lawyers just waiting to hit my ass up when my BFF is around (since he was there) to tell you that the Jews did it all. Seriously. Hitler was there too.

[ThrasherCub]

1 - Use the "Edit" button.
2 - I showed your posts to two different people, including a college professor. All three of us, upon finishing reading your strange rambles said "What the hell?" Please make your points more clear.
3 - Please make it clear when you're using sarcasm or not.

The Koran is essentially the same as the Bible, outside of the New and Old Testament not being accepted as a result of historical ambiguities.
We can't tell if you're being sarcastic about the Koran being essentially the same (and if you are, what point you are trying to make), and if you're not being sarcastic we can't figure out what's wrong with you that you can't see how little sense that statement makes.

[jordanhitler]

What religion was it that went ahead and asploded some big 'ol FBI building?

I ain't even touching the Crusades, y'all, those are, like, too, like, close to the present. My family is still in mourning over that stuff, so don't even think about bringing it up around me. I've got a whole cadre of lawyers just waiting to hit my ass up when my BFF is around (since he was there) to tell you that the Jews did it all. Seriously. Hitler was there too.

I'm not sure you were entirely stable when you wrote this post.

[DarkHunter]

I think I've already covered this, but bad people are bad people no matter the belief. Also note, you can't even compare the violence wrought in the Crusades and the Inquisition in comparison to the Islamic movement. Both were done out of ignorance, especially the Christians, as Jesus never said to butcher other people or force them to believe in Him... The Crusades, historically were fired off because of Islamic violence in the Holy Land.

When you consider that Crusades and Inquisition cost an estimate of little over 1,000,000 human lives give or take a thousand, in comparison to 10 + million butchered during the Ottoman Empire, there isn't much of a comparison. Shoot Sadam Hussien killed little over a million people, and he's secular...

Evil people have always abused power in order to do what they want. People bitch about the folks who've misused Christianity for their own gains, well what about the Emperor System in Japan, where countless Japanese lost their lives in WWII for the crazy crusade of their Emperor... Lets look at the Ceasors. They held almost god like power with their people, and many of them were corrupt.

You can't blame religion for the atrocities of the Communist governments in both China and Russia, both governments were anti religion, and yet the human condition wasn't resolved.

There are millions of good Muslims out there, and while I disagree with their religion, they aren't evil people.

We all have the power to make good or bad decisions, to do good or evil. Those who work evil will always try to find means to justify their actions. A theif blames society for his or her actions... a murderer blames the victim, a child molestor blames his mental state, or his parents, for his crimes. It is nothing new, and I'm sure there will be other quacks... Pat Robinson... Andrew Jackson... Osama bin Laden... who will use belief as a means to rally support, but always in the end, they will fall, and the few good, will remain...

Again, blaming religion is merely creating a scape goat. Put the blame where blame lies... human error...

I don't blame religion. I'm just saying. If you're going to attack one for its history, you have to attack the other. I know plenty of Christians that I like that would never do this sort of thing. And I know some Muslims who are the same way.

As always, I blame human stupidity. The root of all "evil" (everything I hate), and the cause of all the world's problems.

[ThrasherCub]

As always, I blame human stupidity. The root of all "evil" (everything I hate), and the cause of all the world's problems.

The mentality which causes people to act out against others due to their religion is almost always rooted in stupidity, and when it isn't the person in question is generally just plain psychotic on some level and religion happened to be the thing they latched on to.

This refers to people who really do act out due to religion, not people who use it as an excuse.

Though that mentality is often times caused by stupidity too. Isn't stupidity on the list of sin-like things in Satanism?

[John 677808]

Religious conflicts come and continue, though they all work in one unity, which is to keep depraved homosexual's under control.

[philodox]

Religious conflicts come and continue, though they all work in one unity, which is to keep depraved homosexual's under control.

So what the hell is keeping the depraved heterosexuals under control? Football?

[John 677808]

So what the hell is keeping the depraved heterosexuals under control? Football?

Yeah I would think in this case, that or perhaps heavy drinking in clubs and bars.

[Rascaduanok]

I’ve read a very interesting book lately — not completely. I’ve only reached ½–way through. Daniel C. Dennett’s Breaking The Spell. He has a very evolutionary position for his views on religion, and obsesses about cultural transmission of ideas, themes, etc. (called ‘memes’, yes like those you get online). Good stuff, leading up to why people evolved a sense of the supernatural, and why this ended up ‘hijacked’ by religious sensibilities.

He does raise some very pertinent questions about studying Religion scientifically — thoroughly and exhaustively.

[DarkHunter]

The mentality which causes people to act out against others due to their religion is almost always rooted in stupidity, and when it isn't the person in question is generally just plain psychotic on some level and religion happened to be the thing they latched on to.

This refers to people who really do act out due to religion, not people who use it as an excuse.

Though that mentality is often times caused by stupidity too. Isn't stupidity on the list of sin-like things in Satanism?

Stupidity is the "Cardinal Sin" of Satanism. Its the source of all unhappiness and failure in Life. And the joke goes that if there were an international underground of Satanists trying to take over the world, they'd be engineering a virus to make stupidity painful :D