Christianity meets Wiccanism [Archive] - Werewolf.com Discussion Boards

Tempest

12-03-2007, 06:36 PM

Thank you LV426.

As for the discussion, why is this called Christianity meets Wicca (fixed for you)? Kind of putting people in a box, no?

I believe in magic. I believe it is a universal force and may be the reason for some miracles. But I don't think we can access this force let alone bend it to our will. We aren't advanced enough for that. This magic is a whole new force, something beyond human capacity.

why people who study wiccanism don't believe in the bible or one single god

Well if you've actually read about WICCA you would realize it is it's own religion and thus would not follow the sacred text of a completely different religion. As for the single god thing, why should there only be one god? Why not ask why some religions only believe in one god?

Isn't it kind of magical that god created the world the way he did?

If you look at my opinion, you can see that an powerful, advanced being would be able to access magic and use it, while we humans cannot.

jordanhitler

12-03-2007, 11:04 PM

WICCA is a bit confusing, as although this white-light religion has claimed separation from the christian religion, sudo-christian attributes and certain key beliefs still exist within WICCA. For example, wiccans believe that if you cast a spell that is advantageous to yourself, it will resurface ten-fold agaisnt you and in the christian religion, several of the seven deadly sins revolve around doing things in favor of yourself, likewise, we can see several examples in the bible where this sort of action results in punishment.

Christianity is also held before wiccan, the belief and use of "magic". However, Christians simply give there "divine powers" different names, for instance, in the christian religion, bitter waffers and red wine can transform, in the middle of a congregation, into the blood and body of an etity long deceased from this world, at any time of at the will of the preist. From more practical standpoint, this sounds alot like magic to me...

So in other words, Wiccan and christianity do share many common traits, as there are few modern, or recent (last few hundred years) religions that aren't in some way affected or influenced by christianity due to is broad range of influence.

Tempest

12-04-2007, 02:57 AM

wiccans believe that if you cast a spell that is advantageous to yourself, it will resurface ten-fold agaisnt you

I am by no means a Wiccan expert, but I've never read this. First, it's three-fold. Second, many spells are designed to be advantageous to yourself. The three-fold law states that anything you put out will return to you three-fold. Karma with a twist. If you put out good, you will be rewarded with good. If you put out bad, you will be punished with bad. It has nothing to do with if you are selfish... Wicca doesn't have sins like Christianity.

in the christian religion, bitter waffers and red wine can transform, in the middle of a congregation, into the blood and body of an etity long deceased from this world, at any time of at the will of the preist.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are talking about a church I don't know the practices of or you are being metaphorical. I hope you're being metaphorical... The wafers or bread SYMBOLIZE the body of Christ, and the wine or juice SYMOLIZES the blood of Christ. I don't believe it is in any way magical or literal.

there are few modern, or recent (last few hundred years) religions that aren't in some way affected or influenced by christianity due to is broad range of influence.

I'd have to disagree with you here. Christianity has probably affected many religions, but I don't see how Wicca and Christianity have much in common at all. Other than the do not hurt people, which is in many religions, some of which predate Christianity.

ThrasherCub

12-04-2007, 12:56 PM

why magic is considered bad to some people
Because people don't understand it and/or they are taught that it is bad.

why people who study wiccanism don't believe in the bible or one single god
Varies from person to person. I'm not wiccan, but the reason I don't believe in the bible and most other religions is that I studied them and they turned out to be throughly stupid.

I'd also like to say:
Isn't it kind of magical that god created the world the way he did?
That just makes use of magic more evil in the eyes of some. It means you're trying to use power which should only be God's.

12-04-2007, 01:31 PM

I'd just like to say, for the record, that I hate this kind of new-agey crap.

So-called 'magic,' is not real.

Please, while you still can, get away from the image and ideology of this kind of crap. It's the same belief structure as any other religion - assuming you even need that kind of thing - except people will look at you (and treat you) funny for the rest of your life.

I understand wanting attention, but remember you want the good kind.

reflectivemoon

12-04-2007, 03:40 PM

It's not Wiccanism. It's Wicca.

I had heard it called both, that's all. But thanks for correcting me, I hate having my terms wrong. :D

ThrasherCub

12-04-2007, 04:21 PM

I had heard it called both, that's all.
That just means you heard it from someone who wasn't very educated.

WhiteCrowUK

12-04-2007, 05:19 PM

You know is you look at most religions, then there are core elements which are the same, which are trying to address core human questions and needs which have been there since the dawn of man.

This is why religions have a span of thousands of years, they address something deep inside us which remains unchanged as the world becomes more sophisticated.

Christianity and Paganism/Wicca do have a lot of common elements, if a person looks intelligently and with an open mind, unrestrained by dogma. I'm not going to provide you with a list here, if people are bothered they should read about Christain beliefs and Wiccan beliefs and make their own answers.

Because in the end our personal faith should always be about seeking and finding our answers ourselves.

Moonchild_Starla

12-04-2007, 06:16 PM

...this white-light religion has claimed separation from the christian religion, sudo-christian attributes and certain key beliefs still exist within WICCA.

Wicca ie. Paganism is said to have been around B.C and more than most who believe in thus said religion believe that the Christians added parts of their religion (Paganism) to their own to make it liked by more of the town's population (which at the time was mainly, what today would call "Wicca")thus converting followers to Christianity.

For example, wiccans believe that if you cast a spell that is advantageous to yourself, it will resurface ten-fold agaisnt you...

Actually they believe nothing of the sort. "Spell casting" are apart of most of their rituals/"worship". SOME do believe in the THREE FOLD LAW which simply states "do what you will as long as it harms NONE (ie. person/place/thing)" It's more of a warning that what ever you do, good or bad, will be brought back upon you; so you should (try) only do good and protect the world (which is what they are "Protectors of the Earth"/ Mother Nature). Whatever you do will be brought back upon you THREE FOLD either in this life or one to come. (They believe in recarnation)Which was introduce by Gardener as more of a KARMA suggesting law. Some if not most Pagans don't even believe in karma or the law because they believe that Gardener completely butcher their beliefs trying to get more Christains/ect. to convert to Paganism. (or atleast all the ones I know:D )

...for instance, in the christian religion, bitter waffers and red wine can transform, in the middle of a congregation, into the blood and body of an etity long deceased from this world...

Never once have I seen or for that matter heard any priest of the Christain religion transform anything or even claim to be able to "transform" anything like that. Must less during the middle of a cogregation.

Moonchild_Starla

12-04-2007, 06:30 PM

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are talking about a church I don't know the practices of or you are being metaphorical. I hope you're being metaphorical... The wafers or bread SYMBOLIZE the body of Christ, and the wine or juice SYMOLIZES the blood of Christ. I don't believe it is in any way magical or literal.

:beerchug:
:notworthy "Amen" ;)

Tempest

12-04-2007, 09:03 PM

Wicca ie. Paganism

Paganism is not a religion. Wicca is pagan but paganism is not Wiccan.

is said to have been around B.C

Actually Wicca is fairly new. Druidism has been around longer, and Wicca is a rework of Druidism, but Wicca is less than two centuries old.

SOME do believe in the THREE FOLD LAW which simply states "do what you will as long as it harms NONE

This is the last line of the Wiccan Rede, not the Three Fold Law. The Three Fold Law is: "Any energy you send out, shall return to you three-fold." This is also part of the Wiccan Rede. If you don't believe in the Wiccan Rede you are not Wiccan. Try again.

Please read more.

Drakk

12-05-2007, 02:51 AM

im new to the boards....but I am a wiccan and...as most people who are know...some people make a giant "thing" out of "magick" when all it is in reality is are rituals and prayers.....just done differently the alter tools candles etc...are common to many religeons in one incarnation or another......after all..anyone who has prayed has done the same......although there are numerous differences....i think that most people can agree on this if there at a neutral standing point......wicca and christianity basically have nothing in common that cant be said about alot of religeons....most postive ones anyway...sorry about my punctuation...i dont use any if im thinking and writing at the same time lol.....anyway what i wanna say is....after saying all that is...the ain thing setting christianity apart from wicca is the whole monotheism vs polytheism.....oh and that you can be a solitary wiccan...but i have never met a solitary christian.....sorry i ramble.....hehe..... :o

Tempest

12-05-2007, 03:40 AM

the ain thing setting christianity apart from wicca is the whole monotheism vs polytheism

I have read that Christianity could be considered polytheistic with the Holy Trinity. *Waits for J.L.R. to correct this*

you can be a solitary wiccan...but i have never met a solitary christian.....sorry i ramble.....hehe..... :o

There are plenty of solitary Christians. Going to church is not completely necessary to all Christians. You can pray and learn about God/the Bible without going to church.

ThrasherCub

12-05-2007, 01:07 PM

Wicca ie. Paganism is said to have been around B.C
Pagan religions have been around since BC, but not Wicca. Wicca is under 100 years old.

and more than most who believe in thus said religion believe that the Christians added parts of their religion (Paganism) to their own to make it liked by more of the town's population (which at the time was mainly, what today would call "Wicca")thus converting followers to Christianity.
Paganism isn't a religion and it's only what the uneducated people of today would call Wicca. Educated people are more likely to refer to it as "local pagan beliefs" or "indigenous religious practices."

SOME do believe in the THREE FOLD LAW which simply states "do what you will as long as it harms NONE (ie. person/place/thing)"
That is not the three fold law. The three fold law, oddly enough, has to do with the concept of three. Basically it's severely misunderstood karma. It's the idea that if I do something bad it will be repaid to me three times as much and if I do something good the reverse is true.

"Do what you will as long as it harms none" is a hideous corruption of "Do what thou Wilt," and has nothing to do with morals, the three fold law, or harming things.

Some if not most Pagans don't even believe in karma or the law because they believe that Gardener completely butcher their beliefs trying to get more Christains/ect. to convert to Paganism. (or atleast all the ones I know:D )
He didn't butcher their beliefs, he created them. And yes, he was trying to get people to convert.

im new to the boards....but I am a wiccan and...as most people who are know...some people make a giant "thing" out of "magick" when all it is in reality is are rituals and prayers.....
No, that is not all it is. It can be as little as that but rarely is.

just done differently the alter tools candles etc...are common to many religeons in one incarnation or another......
Alter tools, candles, and pretty much everything else are unnecessary for magick.

after all..anyone who has prayed has done the same......
Please actually study magick before speaking on it. Prayer is somewhat akin to the opposite of magick.

sorry about my punctuation...i dont use any if im thinking and writing at the same time lol.....
Thinking was not at all detected...

oh and that you can be a solitary wiccan...but i have never met a solitary christian.....
Lots Christians are solitary. It just means they don't attend church.

sorry i ramble.....hehe..... :o
I noticed. It's annoying. And since you noticed too you don't have any excuse for it.

Moonchild_Starla

12-05-2007, 01:29 PM

Paganism is not a religion. Wicca is pagan but paganism is not Wiccan.

Actually Wicca is fairly new. Druidism has been around longer, and Wicca is a rework of Druidism, but Wicca is less than two centuries old.

This is the last line of the Wiccan Rede, not the Three Fold Law. The Three Fold Law is: "Any energy you send out, shall return to you three-fold." This is also part of the Wiccan Rede. If you don't believe in the Wiccan Rede you are not Wiccan. Try again.

Please read more.

Sorry only stating my fiends views not my own... :D
She/they do not follow the Rede and claim they are Wiccan... course I also know of several people who do not follow the comandments and still claim they are Christain. :shrug:

Moonchild_Starla

12-05-2007, 01:32 PM

Going to church is not completely necessary to all Christians. You can pray and learn about God/the Bible without going to church.

I wish you could tell my Father's preacher this... it's the exact subject we got in an arguement with him over. lol

jordanhitler

12-05-2007, 01:52 PM

I wish you could tell my Father's preacher this... it's the exact subject we got in an arguement with him over. lol

One of the ten commandments is attenting the holy sabbath, to not do so seems a direct violation of the bible, so therefore if you lax to go to church, then you are either A. not a christian or B. not a very good christian and some-what of a hippocrite claiming to be a christian but not going to church.

Back to Wicca, enlighten me on this three-fold law, is this only a guideline for making people not do harmful things to others, or is it a set in stone rule of wicca? How crucial is it for a wiccan abide by this three fold law? I asked a few people who were wiccans, and they had it set in there minds that they would NOT do a self-advantageous spell, or a destructive spell, because it WOULD without a doubt come back to them three-fold.

Tempest

12-05-2007, 02:33 PM

Sorry only stating my fiends views not my own...

So in other words you have no opinion or knowledge on the subject and apparently neither do your friends. Why are you here again?

One of the ten commandments is attenting the holy sabbath, to not do so seems a direct violation of the bible, so therefore if you lax to go to church, then you are either A. not a christian or B. not a very good christian and some-what of a hippocrite claiming to be a christian but not going to church.

Almost right. The ACTUAL commandment says "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy." It says nothing about going to church just that you should keep it holy. A holy day does not require a church in my and many other people's opinion. It is only holy because you are connected to God and you can do this at home through prayer, reflection, meditation, and reading the Bible.

is this only a guideline for making people not do harmful things to others, or is it a set in stone rule of wicca?

Wicca, as far as I remember, has nothing that you absolutely must follow. Hell, even in the very name "Rede" it insinuates that there is nothing you abosolutely must follow. A rede is not like the commandments, it's just a suggestion or an advisement. It is just a guideline.

How crucial is it for a wiccan abide by this three fold law?

Like I said, I don't remember there being anything someone MUST follow. The Wiccan Rede emphasizes the last sentence "An ye harm none, do what thou wilt" and the Three Fold Law just insinuates WHY you should follow that statement.

I asked a few people who were wiccans, and they had it set in there minds that they would NOT do a self-advantageous spell, or a destructive spell, because it WOULD without a doubt come back to them three-fold.

Destructive is quite different from self-advantatgeous. Destructive would likely come back to you Three Fold, or at least you would believe so if you were Wiccan. Self-advantageous is the backbone of many spells, and who is to define exactly what is self-advantageous anyway? Like I said there are no sins in Wicca and the only thing that comes close to being a commandment is the Rede, which states "an ye HARM none" not help none.
I'd tell your Wiccan friends to use their brain.

ThrasherCub

12-05-2007, 03:16 PM

Sorry only stating my fiends views not my own... :D
Why? If you're stating someone else's views then you won't likely be able to defend them.

One of the ten commandments is attenting the holy sabbath, to not do so seems a direct violation of the bible, so therefore if you lax to go to church, then you are either A. not a christian or B. not a very good christian and some-what of a hippocrite claiming to be a christian but not going to church.
Most translations actually tell you to keep the Sabbath day holy. Some individual Christians are fed up with the churches in their area, convinced that they are not truly following the word of God. Many keep the Sabbath day holy by studying the Bible alone and spending the day doing things which allow them to reflect on their religion.

Back to Wicca, enlighten me on this three-fold law, is this only a guideline for making people not do harmful things to others, or is it a set in stone rule of wicca?
Nothing in Wicca is set in stone. Not even ancient beliefs of other religions - Wiccans often have no problem just grabbing up some belief, be it Wiccan or otherwise, and changing it to their heart's content.

How crucial is it for a wiccan abide by this three fold law?
However crucial they decide. It's just as fake as the rest of the religion.

I asked a few people who were wiccans, and they had it set in there minds that they would NOT do a self-advantageous spell, or a destructive spell, because it WOULD without a doubt come back to them three-fold.

..... What?

If I cast a spell which is destructive on someone, it will come back to me.

Party 1 (caster) does something to party 2 (target) which will come back to party 1 again.

If I (1) cast a spell which is advantageous to me (2) it will come back to me (1).

Ergo the three-fold rule says that if I perform a ritual to give myself $10 I'll get my $10 and then it'll come back to me 3-fold ($30), making $40.

Drakk

12-06-2007, 03:58 AM

...hmmm i dont suppose being born into a pagan family counts? or attending circle untill i was 20? or taking part in a covens studys......and as for....acctually studying magic" im not sure what kind your studying....but whatever it is.......its not involving asking diety for help or power?...being as any power that you have is FROM them reguardless....also. ..i dont get what you could possiably mean by "opposite of prayer" lol what kinda sense does that make? does that mean gods ask for my help? lol....anyway dont mean to be putting anyone down or anything....but....y our ideas on this subject.....are....n ot ones that mesh with my own teachings.....cant say your wrong since its not my place....haha...but. ..i can say...there are many different types of pagan....and wiccan...so....i guess your different from me heh.
oh and one last bit....
magic is not about study...you can study about magic....but you wont learn any "magic"....hehe...anyone that has been in a real circle knows what i mean....
solitary or otherwise.

Tempest

12-06-2007, 04:20 AM

...i dont get what you could possiably mean by "opposite of prayer" lol what kinda sense does that make?

Magic is using your own will and prayer is asking for divine intervention?

magic is not about study...you can study about magic....but you wont learn any "magic"....hehe...anyone that has been in a real circle knows what i mean....
solitary or otherwise.

:rolleyes: Magic is just as much about study as it is about practice. Magic is not an inate thing that anyone can do, you need to actually learn how to do it. Which requires study. But what the hell do I know since I've never been in a REAL CIRCLE.

Also, for the love of all that is holy, use punctuation. Reading your posts is annoying. Ellipses are ok in moderation but every 5 words... NO. You can always go back and make your posts read like normal language and not the rambling drivel of someone searching for the right word every 3 seconds.

Rainheart

12-06-2007, 06:52 AM

ThrasherCub

12-06-2007, 08:25 AM

...hmmm i dont suppose being born into a pagan family counts? or attending circle untill i was 20? or taking part in a covens studys......
Counts for what exactly?

and as for....acctually studying magic" im not sure what kind your studying....
Real.

but whatever it is.......
Modified Thelemic Hermeticism with an odd dash of the occasional Chaos Magick.

its not involving asking diety for help or power?...
Correct. It involves the actualization of my own Will. Other deities are occasionally involved and when they are they are ordered, not asked.

being as any power that you have is FROM them reguardless....
Incorrect. Each being has power due to the "part" of the One which they are an incarnate of. Basic magickal knowledge.

also...i dont get what you could possiably mean by "opposite of prayer"
Magick = Doing something yourself.
Prayer = Politely asking someone else to do it for you.

The actions are opposite, the lessons are opposite, the karma is opposite, the development as a person is opposite, the psychology is different and the non-manifest results are opposite.

It's pretty damn opposite.

lol what kinda sense does that make?
Perfect sense to anyone with actual understanding of the topic at hand.

does that mean gods ask for my help?
Your pathetically limited understanding is astonishing.

lol....anyway dont mean to be putting anyone down or anything....but....
For the record, you can't put me down. I'm a magician.

your ideas on this subject.....are....n ot ones that mesh with my own teachings.....
That would be because I am speaking about magick and you are speaking about some silly made-up wiccan thing.

cant say your wrong since its not my place....haha...
I'm not wrong. If you studied magick at all you'd see that.

but...i can say...there are many different types of pagan....
That there are different types of pagan beliefs is irrelevant.

and wiccan...so....i guess your different from me heh.
That you bring up wiccans is proof of our difference.

You evidently don't know what's real.

oh and one last bit....
magic is not about study...you can study about magic....but you wont learn any "magic"....
Incorrect. You can't practice magick until you've studied it first, asshat.

hehe...anyone that has been in a real circle knows what i mean....
solitary or otherwise.
There are no real circles. Just idiots who don't know magick.

You fail.

Magic is much like prayer, as they are both a way of asking a higher power to make some kind of change or event to occur.
Magick asks no one.

Moonchild_Starla

12-06-2007, 03:31 PM

So in other words you have no opinion or knowledge on the subject and apparently neither do your friends. Why are you here again?

lol I wasn't my friend was. I came here to see what all she did on my account, if your really interested. Though I'm sure your not. And my friends are Wiccan. People can worship in different ways and yet still be part of one set group. Christians do it.... they're broke up into different set groups like Nazarene, Methodist, Pentecostal... Why can't there be different views for Wiccans who were taught different ways also?

Tempest

12-06-2007, 03:46 PM

People can worship in different ways and yet still be part of one set group. Christians do it.... they're broke up into different set groups like Nazarene, Methodist, Pentecostal... Why can't there be different views for Wiccans who were taught different ways also?

You, or your friend, or whichever one you are, had misunderstandings of the very basics of Wicca! Like, when it came around, what the three-fold law is, and the misconception that paganism is Wicca. Those are pretty retarded and uneducated mistakes.
And there are different denomenations of Christianity just like there are different traditions of Wicca. But just like Christianity, there must be some degree of similarity between all traditions or else it's a completely different religion. For Wicca, this means following the Rede, belief in multiple gods and goddesses, belief in karma and reincarnation, and probably tons of other stuff I'm missing.
You obviously know nothing about Wicca, and neither does your friend. My point still stands.

Moonchild_Starla

12-06-2007, 03:49 PM

Moonchild_Starla

12-06-2007, 03:54 PM

You, or your friend, or whichever one you are, had misunderstandings of the very basics of Wicca! Like, when it came around, what the three-fold law is, and the misconception that paganism is Wicca. Those are pretty retarded and uneducated mistakes.
And there are different denomenations of Christianity just like there are different traditions of Wicca. But just like Christianity, there must be some degree of similarity between all traditions or else it's a completely different religion. For Wicca, this means following the Rede, belief in multiple gods and goddesses, belief in karma and reincarnation, and probably tons of other stuff I'm missing.
You obviously know nothing about Wicca, and neither does your friend. My point still stands.

:beerchug: Congrats you win. Though you stated before that your not an expert on the religion and I don't necessarily appreciate you calling my friends uneducated on their actual religion just because they were taught a different way by a Priestess of their religion.

WhiteCrowUK

12-06-2007, 04:18 PM

MexicanJewLizard

12-06-2007, 04:54 PM

I personally think that Christianity and Wicca aren't that different. Quite the contrary, they seem to be similar. Magic is much like prayer, as they are both a way of asking a higher power to make some kind of change or event to occur. The gods and goddesses of Wicca are synonimous to the archangels, as well. And according to a high priestess, in Wicca there is an all-powerful being called "The One," who created the gods and goddesses. This entity could be compared to God in the Christian religion. Of course, stubborn believers of either side would probably say the two religions are nothing alike. :)

Then it applies to every other religion, not just Christianity. Seems like a very broad statement; Christianity and Wicca are different but just as everything else pertaining to spirituality, there are similarities. Wicca isn't a very structured religion and has little to no concept of the major aspects of "magic(k)" in general terms i.e. magic(k)al formulas, concept of origin or most other spiritual sects within the occult.

Christianity is a very structured religion and Catholicism, and underlying participant of Christianity is extremely organized (although not in good quality), more so than the other Christian sects.

Wicca is nothing how it was in the early 1900's, and serious practitioners from the early 1900's will write, or reiterate to onlookers that the current "Wicca" movement is nothing more than a teen-witch trend.

...Extremely different than Christianity.

Tempest

12-06-2007, 06:49 PM

Though you stated before that your not an expert on the religion

Not many are, and there is a lot I don't know. I'd even venture to say that no one could be an expert on every single religion out there.

and I don't necessarily appreciate you calling my friends uneducated on their actual religion just because they were taught a different way by a Priestess of their religion.

Maybe they should think and do some study on their own? I was Wiccan for...3 years or so? From age 13-16 I believe. I read quite a bit on it and taught myself everything I know. Lots of books are full of shit but I was able to sort out most of the shit from the real stuff. Maybe your friends should do this. And they ARE uneducated because apparently, they don't even know what the Three-Fold Law is. This is something you can learn in literally any beginner book. In other words, QQ more, try educating YOURSELF instead of listening to what any "High Priestess" spoon feeds you.

ThrasherCub

12-06-2007, 07:25 PM

Christians do it.... they're broke up into different set groups like Nazarene, Methodist, Pentecostal... Why can't there be different views for Wiccans who were taught different ways also?

Most of those different Christian have to do with different interpretations of their text and then it evolved from there, each being a different philosophical view on the same thing.

Different types of Wiccans are generally the result of butchering other theologies and cramming them into Wicca without any consideration for either of them.

I don't necessarily appreciate you calling my friends uneducated on their actual religion just because they were taught a different way by a Priestess of their religion.
And I don't appreciate people who are taught fluff ideas, fail to question them thoroughly, and then spew it into the rest of the world.

Wake up. Your friends are uneducated on this.

philodox

12-06-2007, 10:51 PM

Okay, before I go into the actual topic of the thread, there's a few points that I need to reiterate.
1. It's spelled Wicca. It's not an acronym. Wiccanism is a word devised by people with a desperate need for syllables.
2. Overuse of ellipses leaves the reader with the impression that one has a problem with constant drooling on the period key.
3. Talk about what you believe. And learning...can be fun. Especially when it pertains to things you believe.
3a. Let your friends make their own accounts.

Having addressed these concerns - back in the day it was written:
So... Just wondering how this would work out.
Y'know, there's been some debate on it. Given that Christianity borrowed from the pagan religions as it began its' spread, and I'm pretty sure that Gardener was a bit liberal in his resurrection of Wicca, I'd say there's a thin area where the two could coexist.
The title is partially relevant, but it's more of a thread for:
Magic believers to meet up with magic nonbelievers
Which one are you?
Discussing differences in religion
Which ones? Monotheistic, polytheistic, noodletheistic, other?
why magic is considered bad to some people
Too many crappy episodes of Charmed. And that magic and the supernatural equate to miracles, which are the sole purview of a schizophrenic deity.
why people who study wiccanism don't believe in the bible or one single god
Wicca, dammit. And the reason for this is due to the basics of Wicca - there is simply not one god. At the very heart of it all there are two deities, the god, and the goddess - each of them equal, and having primacy during certain parts of the year. That's the one sentence version.
I'd also like to say:
Isn't it kind of magical that god created the world the way he did?
When you say things like that, you assume things that I don't. Moving right along.

DarkHunter

12-06-2007, 11:51 PM

Thrasher, I think I'd disagree with your point about Magic and Prayer, at least from my perspective. Both can use Will. Real Magic is the use of your Will, knowingly. Prayer is the use of your Will, unknowningly, shrouded in the guise of a deity (Jehovah, Horned God & Earth Goddess or whatever Wiccan Bastardization one would follow).

Prayer isn't always "magic" however. It can simply be conversation with the deity of your choice (with no intent behind it then a sort of centering on whatever you consider Divine), or it can have intent but no real Will behind it (I remember praying as a child like this, mostly because it seemed useless to me but I still was clinging to the weak and retarded remains of what could have been Christian faith).

As for Christianity and "Wiccanism" (that was for you philodox):

They have similarities. Both believe in an afterlife of some kind. Both have deities, interestingly enough, which can be construed as components of an overall One (Wicca has a God and Goddess which work in tandem, Christianity has Father, Son, and Holy Spirit which govern different things and are aspects of One). Both have a system of morality that is somewhat fluffy (As it Harm None for the Wiccans, which is absurd; and Love everybody regardless of Anything for the Christians which is somewhat more Absurd). Wicca and Christianity (if you actually read the Bible, you would find this out), are both concerned with the environment.

But there are vital differences. The fact that Christianity has very highly organized groups while Wicca is the most decentralized thing ever thought of. Wicca seems to overflow with feminine emphasis while Christianity seems to prefer Male. Christianity today doesn't seem too worried about the planet and living on it (and this is due to the whole attitude of "we don't have to care, Jesus is coming back"). Wicca doesn't have a savior coming back. Wicca doesn't seem to have a hell.

Of course, making any statement about Wicca is difficult because there are so many versions of it, many conflicting, that there's almost no point talking about it.

ThrasherCub

12-07-2007, 12:09 AM

DarkHunter

12-07-2007, 01:03 AM

Followers of prayer-heaven religions tend to disagree with you. The God is in command and prayer is little more than asking for something, and you are by and large powerless.

That's one of the things which always made me want to punch people at church.

The followers would disagree with me, but by and large, when it works, I think it is by this mechanism. I've never been interested in what the followers think about it because I know what they think. They think Big Juju really exists.

BlackRosePhantom

12-07-2007, 01:51 AM

One of the ten commandments is attenting the holy sabbath, to not do so seems a direct violation of the bible, so therefore if you lax to go to church, then you are either A. not a christian or B. not a very good christian and some-what of a hippocrite claiming to be a christian but not going to church.

OK, being raised Jewish I have a giant bone to pick with this here before I move along to the subject of this thread. First off, the "Sabbath" is really Shabbat. Shabbat is the weekly celebration of the day of rest, or the 7th day of when god created the world. Shabbat is celebrated from sundown every Friday night to sundown on Saturday. Jewish people celebrate it by gather one's local family together (all aunts, uncles, grandparents living within the city come together with your family) and having a meal on Friday night. It's a night where the family just talks and relaxes together (and it is holy so all males have to wear yamakas). Then on Saturday morning all orthies and many Conservatives (and the other levels of Judaism, which are just level of how well you keep to the word of the Torah, Orthies following it word for word never differing from it path; Conservatives just follow most of it yet feel that god will be lenient if you break it every once and awhile) go to shul (synagogue). Also, on this day you're not supposed to work at all, which orthies thinks includes turning on a light, yet their still willing to wake three miles to shul (which I consider 'working', thus making them hypocrites). OK, I've ranted long enough about this and time to move onto the real subject at hand.

Christianity and Wicca won't get along. Christians are too uptight and Wiccans from what I've read aren't uptight enough (?). Christians view magic as work of the devil because god doesn't allow humans to use anything of the supernatural, and thus if it's not from god it's from the devil. Wicca is hypocritical in the ways that ThrasherCub pointed out (three-fold guideline).

Of course, Christianity is also hypocritical because they claim to be monotheism, yet they believe Jesus to be god, WTF? Jesus is the son of god, and that means there are now 2 gods. "Jesus is and god are one and the same" they say. So god is his own father? (o_O) Or did god just take the part of Jesus that was of himself back? So that means Marry didn't see Jesus rise from the dead, only the half of Jesus's soul that went back to god... But isn't Jesus's soul still one as the Christians think? that means god consumed his son? I guess he just embarrassed his father cause we all know that the god before Jesus came into the picture wasn't a hippie, he had vengeance (even when someone is trying to defend you, if they break the rules a wee bit they get punished, you mister I've been here for thousands of years can't handle another night with the guy redoing what he messed up because he was trying to defend your law; Moses must have been real annoying then...). Now god is supposedly as forgiving as Jesus. How the heck does consuming half a human soul make you kinder? Well, this was Jesus he supposed consumed, the guy that was willing to die because he could come back to life. Well, god consumed his soul because he was being a pussy and now god is a pussy himself, ha ha. Yes, Christianity is a very hypocritical religion indeed. I don't know enough about Wicca to make an entire paragraph on its hypocriticy (though I'm sure their's more than what ThrasherCub pointed out), so you only get this paragraph from me. *put flame-tardent suit on to prepare for getting flamed by the Christians*

P.S. I though Wicca was around during the 1600s, or at least mid 1800s? I mean wasn't the word witch derived from Wiccan which is a believer of Wicca? I might just be confusing a lot of things here which is why I'm asking.

Tempest

12-07-2007, 02:23 AM

First off, the "Sabbath" is really Shabbat.

Actually, in Christianity it is Sabbath.

P.S. I though Wicca was around during the 1600s, or at least mid 1800s?

Mid 1800s, yes, but not the 1600s. More info here. (http://www.religioustoleran ce.org/wic_hist.htm)

I mean wasn't the word witch derived from Wiccan which is a believer of Wicca?

Almost. Witch comes from the Old English word wicca which means "sorcerer". Gardener used the word Wica (one c) to describe all practicioners of witchcraft in the 1930s and it did not signify any particular religion. It wasn't used to describe a religion until around 1970.
In other words, the word wicca/witch never had anything to do with a religion until recently.

BlackRosePhantom

12-07-2007, 02:29 AM

Actually, in Christianity it is Sabbath.

Well, Christains just stole it from Judaism and changed it up a bit (which they did with the entire Torah, but I'm not going to debate this).

Mid 1800s, yes, but not the 1600s. More info here. (http://www.religioustoleran ce.org/wic_hist.htm)

Almost. Witch comes from the Old English word wicca which means "sorcerer". Gardener used the word Wica (one c) to describe all practicioners of witchcraft in the 1930s and it did not signify any particular religion. It wasn't used to describe a religion until around 1970.
In other words, the word wicca/witch never had anything to do with a religion until recently.

Thanks for the information. :)

Drakk

12-07-2007, 05:17 AM

haha.....
chaos magic?......i wont even comment......lol
anyway to the people that made themselves extra annoying I can only say that i never said that you have to see it my way lol.
And what i ment by studying magic wont teach you magic is that studying will teach you some things but the only way to really learn magic is to live it.
well anyway I have no doubt that when you say "magic asks noone" that you really dont know much...:S.....
i can see you think you know alot, mabey you read a bunch of books or somthing.
I dont know alot about magic that forces or binds, simply because thats wrong.
anyway im not sure how you call quarters or even if you do....
but in the case that you do how is that not calling on elemental power? unless you bind then i dont see how you can raise enough power to do much of anything.
Oh and i guess your gonna come back with somthing.
anyway i dont care :p
im a proud pagan and your words wont change my views.
so as ive added my oppinion to the dislike of people and since im new Ill be nice and not tell you what i think of the magic YOU practice.....

Rainheart

12-07-2007, 05:26 AM

Wicca is nothing how it was in the early 1900's, and serious practitioners from the early 1900's will write, or reiterate to onlookers that the current "Wicca" movement is nothing more than a teen-witch trend.

...Extremely different than Christianity.

Christianity is nothing how it was in the times of Jesus, and serious practitioners from that time would tell you the current "Christian" movement is nothing more than a passtime now.

...Yeah, really different.

Moonchild_Starla

12-07-2007, 07:59 AM

...try educating YOURSELF instead of listening to what any "High Priestess" spoon feeds you.

Try educating MYSELF?!? What the Hades? We are talking about my friends here I've already stated they're not my effing views. I'm not listening to any Priestess. And a High Priestess seems to be kinda like a church is to Christians, so if they choose to go to the wrong one that's their call not mine nor is it YOURS to decide what is and what's not shit.

UNODRAGONE

12-07-2007, 08:09 AM

Try educating MYSELF?!? What the Hades? We are talking about my friends here I've already stated they're not my effing views. I'm not listening to any Priestess. And a High Priestess seems to be kinda like a church is to Christians, so if they choose to go to the wrong one that's their call not mine nor is it YOURS to decide what is and what's not shit.

I love how you reframed from cursing at one point and did it at another lol Sorry thats the Italian in me. Religion is a touchy subject for most and many people will tell you your religion or beliefs are wrong, but your beliefs are your own, when someone tells me mine are wrong or stupid, I shrugg it off :) Cause I know in my heart I'm right and I have a squad of angry hairless squirrels to back me up

ThrasherCub

12-07-2007, 10:55 AM

haha.....
chaos magic?......i wont even comment......lol
1 - that was a comment.
2 - Chaos Magick works better than the Wiccan excuse for magick.

anyway to the people that made themselves extra annoying I can only say that i never said that you have to see it my way lol.
*was once a wiccan*

And what i ment by studying magic wont teach you magic is that studying will teach you some things but the only way to really learn magic is to live it.
And if you do not understand that magick is pretty far from prayer, you certainly don't live it. If you think wiccan "magick" has any merit, you haven't studied it enough to even think of trying to live it.

So go study it, asshat.

well anyway I have no doubt that when you say "magic asks noone" that you really dont know much...:S.....
Magick is the bending of things to bring them into accord with your Will. It asks no one.

i can see you think you know alot, mabey you read a bunch of books or somthing.
I do much more than that, but even if all I did was read I'd still be doing a lot more than you.

I dont know alot about magic that forces or binds, simply because thats wrong.
Explain.

anyway im not sure how you call quarters or even if you do....but in the case that you do how is that not calling on elemental power?
WTF is "calling quarters?"

unless you bind then i dont see how you can raise enough power to do much of anything.
Thank you for finally admitting that you are not a magician. You don't even know where a magician's power comes from. :rolleyes:

Oh and i guess your gonna come back with somthing.
anyway i dont care :p
Then do not post here.

im a proud pagan and your words wont change my views.
I'm a proud pagan too, you twit.

so as ive added my oppinion to the dislike of people and since im new Ill be nice and not tell you what i think of the magic YOU practice.....
The opinion of a fluffy-bunny who thinks he knows stuff really won't bother me. At worse, it'll make me laugh so hard that I'll be sore afterwards.

Try educating MYSELF?!? What the Hades?
coming on here and talking about something you don't know is annoying and allowing others to use your account indicates that you endorse their beliefs. Either way, it's annoying.

that's their call not mine nor is it YOURS to decide what is and what's not shit.
No one here (except maybe Drakk) is trying to decide what is and is not real. The rest of us are just announcing the reality of what is being spoken of.

Rainheart

12-07-2007, 01:49 PM

Magick is the bending of things to bring them into accord with your Will. It asks no one.

Magic itself does not ask anyone. You ask that the higher power uses it in your favor (because you yourself cannot command it, no matter how strong you think you are.).

Thank you for finally admitting that you are not a magician. You don't even know where a magician's power comes from. :rolleyes:

I think I have a good guess: smoke and mirrors.

ThrasherCub

12-07-2007, 02:15 PM

Magic itself does not ask anyone. You ask that the higher power uses it in your favor (because you yourself cannot command it, no matter how strong you think you are.)

You evidently don't understand magick either. Yes, you can command it.

Tempest

12-07-2007, 02:47 PM

Try educating MYSELF?!? What the Hades? We are talking about my friends here I've already stated they're not my effing views.

Well see, I tend to see people's avatar and read what they post as their OWN opinion, since generally that is how it works. But then you decide to randomly let people use your account without even announcing it is not actually you and it throws me and others off. So don't act so suprised that I forgot it wasn't you who wrote that. Either way though, you should learn about this too because apparently you know nothing about this. And seriously, I can't stop you from letting other people use your account, but it makes NO sense. It's not like you had to pay for this account, or that it took an hour to make it.

And ThrasherCub, calling the quarters is some Wiccan thing that they do. They call on the guardians of the North, South, East, and West, with their respective elements, to protect their magic circle while they do rituals or magic. I only ever used the to protect, but Wiccans sometimes will ask them for help with their spells. But I ask you this, Drakk, has your magic EVER ACTUALLY worked, without any chance of it being a coincidence?

ThrasherCub

12-07-2007, 03:15 PM

And ThrasherCub, calling the quarters is some Wiccan thing that they do. They call on the guardians of the North, South, East, and West, with their respective elements, to protect their magic circle while they do rituals or magic.

So it's a fucked-up version of the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram. Gotcha.

Drakk, in the grown-up version of calling quarters, no you don't call on external power. You (as in you, not someone or something you ask) balance the elemental energies creating a sphere (Wiccans think it's a circle) of balanced energy. All things which are dangerous are unbalanced otherwise they would be in harmony with the universe which they obviously aren't or else they wouldn't be dangerous. Most unbalanced entities are repelled from the sphere like magnetic repulsion. Those who enter are made to be just as balanced as the rest of the energy thereby making them no longer dangerous.

demonic_monkey

12-07-2007, 05:22 PM

Here's an idea for you all; if you don't know what you are talking about, shut the hell up and let us adults who know what we are speaking of tell our opinions.

First, nothing in Christianity is original. All of their ideologies are borrowed from pre-existing religions. And for the love of GOD please stop celebrating Christmas in December because Jesus was born in the Spring. Costantine and the Council of Nicaea adapted the birth of "Christ" to fit in with the ancient Pagan Sabbat of Yule, when they paid homage to the rebirth of their Sun God.

Second, Wicca has been around longer than Chrstianity, as most Wiccan practices predate (and you can look ths up anywhere) Christianity. Sure, Wicca as a term didn't come into being until the early 1900's when Gardener adapted the word to his teachings, however, the practices have been around far longer than effing Gerald Gardener.

Third, and this is for your edification, I have a bit of information at hand that can straighten all of you out. The Rede is as follows:

Bide by the Wiccan Laws ye MUST,
In perfect love and perfect trust.

Ye must live and let live,
Fairly take and fairly give.

Cast the circle thrice about,
let the spell be spoken in rhyme.

Soft of eye, and light of touch,
Speak ye little and listen much.

Deosil (clockwise) go by waxing moon,
Chanting out the Wiccan runes.

When the Lady's moon is new,
Kiss the hand of her times two.

When the moon rides at her peak,
Then the heart's desire seek.

Heed the North Wind's mighty gale:
Lock the door and trim the sail.

When the wind comes from the South,
Love will kiss thee on the mouth.

When the Moor wind blows from the West,
Departed spirits have no rest.

When the wind blows from the East,
Expect the new and set the feast.

Nine woods in the cauldron go,
Burn them quick and burn them slow.

Elder be the Lady's tree,
Burn it not or cursed you'll be.

When the wheel begins to turn,
Let the Beltane fires burn.

When the wheel has turned to Yule,
Light the log and the Horned one rules.

Heed the flower, bush, and tree,
By the Lady, Blessed be.

Where the rippling waters go,
Cast a stone the truth to know.

When ye have and hold a need,
Hearken not to other's greed.

With a fool no seasons spend,
Or be created as his friend.

Merry meet and merry part,
Bright the cheeks and warm the heart.

MIND THE THREE FOLD LAW YE SHOULD,
THREE TIMES BAD AND THREE TIMES GOOD.

When misfortune is enow,
Wear the blue star on your brow.

True in love ye must ever be,
Lest thy love be false to thee.

These words the Wiccan Rede fulfill,
Harm ye none, do what ye will.

Where the hell did you keep getting wilt?

As for the Rede, it's older than your precious Commandments. The Powers cannot be commanded, in any shape, form, or fashion, so please stop saying that it is so. Magick is not done at every ritual, and they are just that, rituals. Casting a circle is essentially the same as going to church; you ask the Powers for their assistance and then depart, holding to the belief that they will acknowledge your request and choose to assist you. At the end of the circle, you thank the powers for their assistance, you do not dismiss them (you couldn't dismiss them if you tried to anyway).

By the way, magick is only a small part of Wicca, not the central core. That is a common misconception that any idiot who doesn't know S--- about Wicca could make.

As for the circle/sphere thing, do they not both have circumferences? As the circle is cast it is visualized as a sphere that protects all within both from above and below.

That's it for my rant and I hope that you all learned something. The moral of this post; speak not of what thou doesn't know.

Blessed be,
--monkey--

ThrasherCub

12-07-2007, 06:44 PM

Second, Wicca has been around longer than Chrstianity, as most Wiccan practices predate (and you can look ths up anywhere) Christianity. Sure, Wicca as a term didn't come into being until the early 1900's when Gardener adapted the word to his teachings, however, the practices have been around far longer than effing Gerald Gardener.

Incorrect! Gardener invented Wicca as a religion. It is the combination of extremely watered down Thelema with a heavy dose of malformed Celtic mythology given a feminist twist. Pagan practices, including those found in the Celtic region out date Christianity. Wicca, however, is only about 70 years old.

Where the hell did you keep getting wilt?
From the origins of your baby of a religion.

Here's an idea for you all; if you don't know what you are talking about, shut the hell up and let us adults who know what we are speaking of tell our opinions.
You don't even know how old your religion is or where it comes from. You evidently don't know what you're talking about. Please enjoy the irony of your demand and either educate yourself or shut up.

Tempest

12-07-2007, 09:47 PM

Here's an idea for you all; if you don't know what you are talking about, shut the hell up and let us adults who know what we are speaking of tell our opinions.

Ah, wonderful irony. I loves it.

Second, Wicca has been around longer than Chrstianity, as most Wiccan practices predate (and you can look ths up anywhere) Christianity.

WRONG. Did you click on my link? History of Wicca (http://www.religioustoleran ce.org/wic_hist.htm). It is a bastardization of Druidism.

Bide by the Wiccan Laws ye MUST,

Again you ignore my post concerning this.
Rede –noun 3. counsel; advice. In the very NAME it says that it's not something you need to follow. And thanks for posting the entire Rede, already read it and used to have it memorized.

As for the Rede, it's older than your precious Commandments.

LMAO. Such ignorance. The Rede is extremely new, just because it uses words like "thou" and "ye" doesn't mean it's super old and predates Christianity. More History. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiccan_Rede)

Magick is not done at every ritual, and they are just that, rituals.

Did anyone even deny this?

At the end of the circle, you thank the powers for their assistance, you do not dismiss them (you couldn't dismiss them if you tried to anyway).

Yes you do. You thank them for their time and assistance and respectfully dismiss them.

That's it for my rant and I hope that you all learned something.

Sure I learned that you know little about your own religion (I'm assuming since you used the corny ass Blessed Be at the end of your post).

The moral of this post; speak not of what thou doesn't know.

Oh, more irony!!

Try, try again.

ThrasherCub

12-07-2007, 10:03 PM

Try, try again.
Everyone, for the record that's not sarcasm.

We love correcting you stupid folk.

jordanhitler

12-08-2007, 01:30 PM

Everyone, for the record that's not sarcasm.

We love correcting you stupid folk.

People are putting way too much importance on this thread...

I need to know something crucial about Wicca. Does A wiccan (witch,warlock...) actually perform magic, or does he only believe he is performing magic in a ceremonial way in order to fulfill his dogmatic needs? In other words, is it about magic, or the belief in magic?

ThrasherCub

12-08-2007, 01:38 PM

People are putting way too much importance on this thread...
I'm just finding it amusing.

I need to know something crucial about Wicca. Does A wiccan (witch,warlock...) actually perform magic, or does he only believe he is performing magic in a ceremonial way in order to fulfill his dogmatic needs? In other words, is it about magic, or the belief in magic?
They certainly think they're performing magick, though ask a practitioner of any magickal tradition older than Wicca and they're liable to laugh. Some Wiccans get it right, but the practices themselves (such as the calling quarters thing which was mentioned earlier) are actually nothing more than placebo effect and very flamboyant prayer.

jordanhitler

12-08-2007, 01:42 PM

I'm just finding it amusing.

They certainly think they're performing magick, though ask a practitioner of any magickal tradition older than Wicca and they're liable to laugh. Some Wiccans get it right, but the practices themselves (such as the calling quarters thing which was mentioned earlier) are actually nothing more than placebo effect and very flamboyant prayer.

so there fake magicians, got it.

ThrasherCub

12-08-2007, 01:55 PM

so there fake magicians, got it.

Pretty much. Lots of Wiccan books of magick have made up attributions for things too. Pick up a few different books on Wiccan magick and you'll be sure to find lots of disagreement on the magickal properties of herbs, stones, and even on the meaning of colors. I've seen "Red" be hate, love, sexual virility, and even bad health.

Then the things they get right they don't often understand. For example on the altar there are four tools which represent the four elements. Air is represented by a dagger-like tool, though several Wiccans will replace this with a feather because "weapons are bad" or "feathers are more like air."

The element of Air is representative of cutting through illusion which obviously a feather represents like crap.

Many Wiccans also believe that the Pentacle is the best symbol in the world and works great on everything, especially healing. The Pentacle is the symbol of Gevurah, which is a raw destructive force.

And I could rant for days on the common Wiccan notion that robes should be any color but black.

DarkHunter

12-08-2007, 10:04 PM

Thrasher, most Wiccans think "inversed" means a point down pentagram. Or pentacle. Whatever word they choose.

With the pentagram, there's a whole hell of a lot of lack of research on the subject. Too much Da Vinci Code. "Goddess, sacred feminine." I guess no one remembers Pythagoras.

Everybody neglects the fact that Gardner created Wicca, saying Wicca existed before because of "a pre-Christian Goddess Cult of Wise Women" when in reality, there is no documented evidence of such a thing. There is no real way to tell what ancient Celtic beliefs and practices were. Of course if you compare Crowley's writings with the original books that Gardner wrote, the resemblance is almost uncanny. Gardner got smart and slowly rewrote things so as to be less Thelemite, but it was there. Gardner, originally, was going to establish a British O.T.O.

Sure women probably practiced folk magic back in the day. Everybody did. The Everyman practices what you could call folk magic today (Horoscopes, Tarot, Quija boards, wishbones, birth candles). Does that mean a pre-Christian goddess cult? No.

Pagans say, "Never Again", whenever anybody talks about the Burning Times, but then they neglect to remember that all conflicts cloaked in religion are really political and financial. The Knights Templar weren't killed for not worshipping Jesus. They were killed because King Philip was broke. Similarly, people weren't killed in "The Burning Times" because of religion. They were killed because they had money that the Church wanted.

REAL Magic is something that comes from within. All that higher power crap is White Light nonsense. Higher powers are avatars, archetypes. They are parts of the human psychology that can be activated and used to create change. Primarily in the Self, but also in the wider world (if you are a skilled magician; the likelihood and dispersal of such talents are on par with something like musical talent; not everybody has great musical talent and many people have known at all; lack of magical talent is just harder to prove, though there are indications on this board).

A rant, probably just reiterating everybody else's statements, but I can't help but join the fun.

ThrasherCub

12-08-2007, 10:29 PM

A rant, probably just reiterating everybody else's statements, but I can't help but join the fun.
Kinda, but you did touch on some fine subjects.

Everybody neglects the fact that Gardner created Wicca, saying Wicca existed before because of "a pre-Christian Goddess Cult of Wise Women" when in reality, there is no documented evidence of such a thing.
Entirely correct. Even if you want to buy into the idea that Wiccan really did come from ancient Celtic practices and wasn't some pseudo-celtic junk Gardener pulled out his ass one day, that doesn't mean Wicca is that old, just the practices it came from. To say so would be like saying that Christianity has been around for 4,000 years because that's how old Judaism is. Even if you want to buy into the idea that Wicca comes from those ancient beliefs, you really need to come to terms with the fact that Wicca itself hasn't been around long enough for all of the original Wiccans to die yet.

There is no real way to tell what ancient Celtic beliefs and practices were.
Yeah, a great deal of things we "know" are actually just assumptions. Someone recently PMed me asking for information on the Celtic goddess Epona, and here's what we have:
* She has something to do with horses and was probably the goddess thereof.
* Judging from the way she was incorporated into Roman myth (not the original Celtic beliefs) she had something to do with what happened to a soul immediately after death.
* She probably used to be a fertility Goddess.

Things which are more in depth than that are generally assumptions or just plain made up. The Celtic tradition is one of the ones we know least about.

Of course if you compare Crowley's writings with the original books that Gardner wrote, the resemblance is almost uncanny.
There's so much in common it's kind of alarming no one notices. For fuck's sake just look at the altar - that comes straight out of the Hermetic tradition. And the morals expressed within the Wiccan Rede are nothing more than the result of following one's Will. It's just been dumbed down a bunch and been expressed in rhyme.

Pagans say, "Never Again", whenever anybody talks about the Burning Times, but then they neglect to remember that all conflicts cloaked in religion are really political and financial. The Knights Templar weren't killed for not worshipping Jesus. They were killed because King Philip was broke. Similarly, people weren't killed in "The Burning Times" because of religion. They were killed because they had money that the Church wanted.
That, and accusing someone of witchcraft was a great way to get rid of a neighborhood enemy. Very likely a few people who genuinely practiced mysticism were burned but that's simply given the sheer number of people who were executed. "Witchcraft" was nothing more than an excuse to execute someone and a way to clear the conscience.

BlackRosePhantom

12-08-2007, 10:52 PM

That, and accusing someone of witchcraft was a great way to get rid of a neighborhood enemy. Very likely a few people who genuinely practiced mysticism were burned but that's simply given the sheer number of people who were executed. "Witchcraft" was nothing more than an excuse to execute someone and a way to clear the conscience.

That and whenever something bad happened in general, people wanted to have someone to blame in order to make themselves feel better. If a storm popped out of no where (within a half an hour), then they'd blame it on one of the rather healthy woman whom recived the least amount of damage from the strom. People just like someone to blame, especially uneducated people (like those back in the day).

philodox

12-09-2007, 02:22 PM

Here's something of a question that's been nagging:

"What was the first religion?"

I mean seriously, all the discussion about older/younger religion and who lifted whos' ideas has made me wonder. I mean, quite obviously Gardner took look and feel from multiple sources, as did Buckland and a few others. (Side note: Bucky's got a few decent ideas, but the whole viking-nostalgia kick makes me twitch.)

Question 2 that's been nagging: Why do you pray/perform magic?

ThrasherCub

12-09-2007, 02:30 PM

"What was the first religion?"
Long since dead animalistic beliefs. If you're looking for the first structured religion it would be the Babylonian one (also long since dead). As for which one is the oldest and still alive (and looks anything like it used to) it's probably Shinto.

Why do you pray/perform magic?
Because it's what I do. Same reason I enjoy coming here to tear into stupid people. It's just kind of inherent to who I am.

DarkHunter

12-10-2007, 12:40 AM

Here's something of a question that's been nagging:

"What was the first religion?"

Sun worship.

Question 2 that's been nagging: Why do you pray/perform magic?

To achieve my desires, explore my Self, explore the Universe and the wider Macroverse, as well as get more in tune with my own peculiar Nature.

ThrasherCub

12-12-2007, 03:36 PM

DarkHunter

12-13-2007, 12:08 AM

This recently came up in a religious debate (read: "Yesterday I was yelling at people who think that making random claims about wicca equates to having an ancient religion"), but a question for Wiccans with their ancient religion.

Where the hell are your God and Goddess? How come there's no record of your ancient macro-goddess until Gardener?

Or most of the other things you do. I really want to understand how you can think your religion is ancient.

Well, there's at least one account of a "supreme Earth Mothering Goddess" Type. The Minoans of ancient Crete were matriarchal (at least religiously). There was a lesser "horned god" so to speak (it was a Bull). But then, Wicca really can't claim any kind of descent from these people (Wiccans don't host bull jumping and they certainly don't slaughter bulls, eating their blood and flesh raw as a form of Eucharist).

The day I see a Wiccan do that, then I'll agree that their religion is ancient (though I still will refuse to believe in an unbroken line of descent until I see evidence).

UNODRAGONE

12-13-2007, 07:09 AM

This recently came up in a religious debate (read: "Yesterday I was yelling at people who think that making random claims about wicca equates to having an ancient religion"), but a question for Wiccans with their ancient religion.

Where the hell are your God and Goddess? How come there's no record of your ancient macro-goddess until Gardener?

Or most of the other things you do. I really want to understand how you can think your religion is ancient.

This maybe a stupid question, and my apologies ahead of time, but what exactly does it mean to be a Wiccan? I have a friend who states she is Wiccan, personally I think she just reads the books to piss people off cause I only see her read them in public places not any where else, so being the strong person that I am I like to challenge people who use religion to seem "cool" instead of because it is apart of them, hence my question.

ThrasherCub

12-13-2007, 12:59 PM

This maybe a stupid question, and my apologies ahead of time, but what exactly does it mean to be a Wiccan?

It means following the pseudo-Celtic tradition set down by Gardener. As far as I understand, generally very little is actually required other than to hold that faith, and things like magick and what not are optional.

UNODRAGONE

12-14-2007, 06:56 AM

It means following the pseudo-Celtic tradition set down by Gardener. As far as I understand, generally very little is actually required other than to hold that faith, and things like magick and what not are optional.

Thank you :) what about that whole mother Earth thing? She says she practices spells but I doubt she does

ThrasherCub

12-14-2007, 01:19 PM

J.L.R.

12-14-2007, 08:00 PM

I really don't know about the Mother Earth thing since no two Wiccans I've ever known could come to an agreement on it and when I was a Wiccan no two books could ever come to an agreement either so I just did whatever I wanted. Which seems to be what everyone does.

I've seen the Earth described as thus:

The child of the Goddess
The child of the God and Goddess
An avatar ("incarnation") of the Goddess
The local aspect of the giant macro-thing the God and Goddess are from
Something sacred the God and Goddess were sent here to protect
Something sacred people were sent here to protect
Something non-sacred people were sent here to make sacred
The direct and literal parent of every thing

And the list goes on.

The earth was created by Bob. :P

UNODRAGONE

01-03-2008, 08:21 AM

Galliard

01-03-2008, 09:50 AM

Ah, here we go.

I found out about Wicca from a babysitter when I was thirteen (e-mail me if you have to ask -.-). During high school, I followed what I could, I read books, got online and read some more when the teachers weren't looking (or my Pentacostal foster mom), and generally came to the conclusion that Wicca isn't what I feel to be true in the world... to use someone's turn of phrase, it's a watered down bastardization of several religions and practices, in my opinion. However, it got me questioning. Sometimes, that's what people need, and if Fluffy Wicca is the kick in the ass to stop being lazy and find my own truths that I needed, then that works. Now, though, I'm having problems finding things that haven't been butchered to crap. I mean, I know what I personally believe, but it's more spirituality than true religion. I don't have a set deity structure (due to the fact that I believe that gods and goddesses, no matter name or attribute, are part of the Divine Power, and are archetypes that we call on when in need of a particular aspect of the divine). While I have adhered to the Wiccan form of calling quarters, I have read here that is also a bastardization. So I want to know what the original concepts are. Those may work better for me.

In my opinion, I agree that magick is something that is used to wield one's own Will, and Ritual is that which asks. I am thinking that is where many people are confused. People may Will their deities to listen, but that doesn't mean they will grant your request. Using your own Will cuts through the red tape, but I do believe that there is Karmic return for doing so... good or bad, depending on the situation.

My friend and I have had long debates on the use of Will and Energy... he is passive and believes that things should be examined, and usually no action, spiritual or magickal need be taken. I want to expand my abilities, I want to learn, I want to practice (yes, and probably get my head ripped off in the process;) ) and I know the first step is to read, and the next step is to do, until perfected. I mean, I can sit around all day and theorize about what will happen if I do something (a ritual or spell) a certain way, but I'll never know until I try. It's not that I don't understand the need for caution when working with things bigger than myself (who knows what could happen), but the internal curiosity drive is turned on to the matter of magick and how it affects (or doesn't affect) my life and those around me. I want to learn. Could I get burned? Yes. Could it all turn out to be something that I'm completely disillusioned with? Yes. Is that a risk I'm willing to take? YES!

I also don't want to sound like an idiot (like I know I have in the past). I feel like I'm in danger of sounding like an idiot right now, but hey, I know I can rely on you guys to call me on it. :D

I believe it is Thrasher Cub that has links to Thelema (sp)? I would like to read more on it, and if you could tell me non bullshit places to go, that would be awesome. Also, I have only heard once of Chaos magick, and would like to at least read up on it. If you had links to that, I would appreciate it greatly.

Also... here's what I have experienced personally from Christians and myself (mainly citing the Pentacostal christian foster mother), if I don't talk about what I believe in, she won't feel compelled to convert me. She's a great lady otherwise, but I couldn't convince her that her views were wrong for me, so in that situation, it's best to stfu. Also, if you try to start a pagan club in high school to learn more about alternatives, teachers aren't generally your friend, but the first amendment is. Salt and Light and the FCA will just throw away your posters and spit chewed up Cheese Its on them. :shrugs: Not the best of experiences, but I figure that there's the whole Christian/pagan interaction in a nutshell...

ThrasherCub

01-03-2008, 03:48 PM

and there lies my confusion lol she states mother Earth is the creator of us all, that she gets her powers from Earth (the four elements) but again this makes no sense to me because the books she reads states nothing of the sort (I read a couple of them just to gain a better understanding of where she is coming from).
Then there's a good chance that she, like so many others, are just filling in the gaps with whatever they want (regardless of things like making actual sense) and just calling it Wicca.

She also dabbles in crystals?
Not surprising. There's now a huge crystal magick tradition based on the idea that crystals don't represent concepts or channel certain energies, but contain huge amounts of energy themselves.

I don't have a set deity structure (due to the fact that I believe that gods and goddesses, no matter name or attribute, are part of the Divine Power, and are archetypes that we call on when in need of a particular aspect of the divine).
FYI, you're right. And while I'm glad to see you've come to this realization I still suggest working with Gods of particular interest simply because those different aspects work differently and have quite different personalities

While I have adhered to the Wiccan form of calling quarters, I have read here that is also a bastardization. So I want to know what the original concepts are. Those may work better for me.
That would be the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram (http://www.kheper.net/topics/Hermeticism/LBR.htm).

People may Will their deities to listen, but that doesn't mean they will grant your request.
Only because you're using your Will to make them listen rather than using your Will to command them.

Using your own Will cuts through the red tape, but I do believe that there is Karmic return for doing so... good or bad, depending on the situation.
For the record, there is no real Good or Bad karma, just karma. Though if you had to attribute things, you would receive good karma for commanding the gods and ill karma for asking.

I believe it is Thrasher Cub that has links to Thelema (sp)? I would like to read more on it,
If you're looking for Thelema as a religious and philosophical point, you should probably start with Liber AL (http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/engccxx.htm), which is our main holy book. If you're looking for Magick as taught by Crowley, you should first do some research on the topic and decide where you want to start since there's lots of different kinds.

If after this you're still interested in Thelema you might be interested in Gnostic Mass (http://www.scarletwoman.org/docs/docs_mass.html), and if you wish to attend some time you can contact your local O.T.O. body (http://oto-usa.org/bodies.html).

Also, I have only heard once of Chaos magick, and would like to at least read up on it. If you had links to that, I would appreciate it greatly.
Best Chaos Magick site I've ever seen (http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos.php)

IIFerinusII

01-08-2008, 10:04 PM

Wicca ie. Paganism is said to have been around B.C and more than most who believe in thus said religion believe that the Christians added parts of their religion (Paganism) to their own to make it liked by more of the town's population (which at the time was mainly, what today would call "Wicca")thus converting followers to Christianity.

You had good intentions, but you really butchered it. Paganism was around in B.C. (well its really always been around, it is just beliefs that differ from the major world renown religions).

You are correct about saying this though. Pagans would not convert, so Christians mixed their beliefs to slowly change the religion of the Pagans. (And no, these holidays were not originally Christian holidays, changed to suit pagans, these were pagan holidays that had dates changed slightly and had Christian belief and connotations put in.)

*Note, some Christians may get mad* Among these are Christmas (Yule)

Yule

Yule is the Winter Solstice and the shortest day of the year, marking the beginning of winter. The date for this celebration is usually December 21st. Due to the waning of the sun, this day was seen as the day of the sun’s rebirth. As the sun was seen as a deity in the ancient world, it became a festival of the rebirth of the deity. In some traditions it celebrated the death of the Oak King at the hands of his son and successor, the Holly King.
On this day families would have an evergreen tree lit with candles to show the rebirth of the sun. Likewise, holly was put around the home to honor the victorious Holly King. Gifts were traditionally given as well family feasting.

Easter is also:

Ostara

Ostara is celebrated on the day of the Spring Equinox, around March 21st, and is also known as Lady’s Day. The origin of the festival’s name is the Teutonic goddess Eostre. The significance of this festival is to celebrate the arrival of Spring, seen as the renewal and rebirth of nature itself. The giving of hard-boiled, decorated eggs takes place on this day.

OH AND HERE IS SOMETHING (take it as you will): The Ultimate Christian Loophole!!!!

Ancient Christians had an alternative explanation; they claimed that Satan had created counterfeit deities in advance of the coming of Christ in order to confuse humanity.

Also, at a time Christians even recognized this, under the "dictatorship" of Oliver Cromwell, in England, in which all of these festivals and celebrations were banned because of their pagan roots.

Sorry if you found this disturbing. Personally, I align with no religion because I believe your relationship with whatever you believe in should be personal and you should not have people, many times corrupt (yes I know they are not all corrupt, many are very good people with great intentions), leading you and telling you what is right and wrong.

DarkHunter

01-09-2008, 06:43 PM

Perhaps this should be repeated again?

Wicca equals Pagan. It is a Pagan religion.

Paganism doesn't equal Wicca. Paganism is not a Wiccan religion.

So "Wicca ie Paganism" hasn't been around since B.C.E. Paganism has. Not Wicca.

silvrwlfcapr

01-23-2008, 04:30 PM

Necro Mortis

01-23-2008, 05:34 PM

I was raised Christian, and was very religious up into I was about twelve or thirteen when I discovered a book on Wicca in a second-hand bookstore. Even at that young age, I thought that Wicca made much more sense than Christianity. When I touched the book a bright light started to surround me and I felt power shooting up from the book, through my arm and into my very soul. Suddenly I realised my destiny. To become the most powerful witch of all time! Excelsior!

This has all the makings of a terrible teenage/witchcraft movies. Work on your back story and come back to me with a script. Together we can go far...

Tempest

01-23-2008, 05:55 PM

All you guys have been doing is repeating the same things over and over again, and quoting eachother out the ass, correcting every tiny little mistake.

Yep. Welcome to werewolf.com!

Does it really matter who's right and who's wrong?

It does. To me, anyway.

No matter what you tell people, they won't change their beliefs and ignorances just because some faceless words on the computer tell them to.

Um, actually posts here HAVE made me change my views. Not in this thread, but others. For example, J.L.R. has educated me on Christianity more than Bible school did, and made me realize that I was being far too hard on a religion I knew little about. Fact is, faceless people can change your opinions as long as you have a somewhat open mind.

Besides, there are many different traditions and beliefs in Wicca, and other religions, that sprout completely different thought patterns and views. They are all very similar, so why argue about it?

I'm well aware of this, but they are all bastardizations and idiot versions of the religions they steal from. Example: shamanic Wicca? Seriously how can you make up a religion based off of a belief system that little is known about since much of it is kept secret?

Well, anyway, I was just trying to put an end to the arguing and bickering over stupid, meaningless things.

Does anyone else see the irony in this?

Kaden

01-23-2008, 08:50 PM

Long since dead animalistic beliefs. If you're looking for the first structured religion it would be the Babylonian one (also long since dead). As for which one is the oldest and still alive (and looks anything like it used to) it's probably Shinto.

I agree it is most likely Shinto. I studied Shinto for many years and it has changed very little from its initial roots. Very, very little. Its a very fascinating religion.

DarkHunter

01-23-2008, 10:20 PM

I really, really tried to read all the posts in this thread, but some of you...I don't even know what to say, you're just clueless.
Oh, and by the way, the word Wicca(n) comes from the Anglo-Saxon word wiccae, which means wise.
All you guys have been doing is repeating the same things over and over again, and quoting eachother out the ass, correcting every tiny little mistake. Does it really matter who's right and who's wrong? No matter what you tell people, they won't change their beliefs and ignorances just because some faceless words on the computer tell them to.
Besides, there are many different traditions and beliefs in Wicca, and other religions, that sprout completely different thought patterns and views. They are all very similar, so why argue about it?
All religions have similarities; I've seen people talking about how Christianity and Wicca is very similar. It is, but in many ways it isn't. You could compare Wicca to any religion and find similarities. The same goes for Christianity.
I was raised Christian, and was very religious up into I was about twelve or thirteen when I discovered a book on Wicca in a second-hand bookstore. Even at that young age, I thought that Wicca made much more sense than Christianity, but I won't go into my reasons at this moment.
Well, anyway, I was just trying to put an end to the arguing and bickering over stupid, meaningless things. Take my words any way you want, but I know what I know.
An' it harm none, do what thou wilt.
Blessed Be

I don't think many people dispute the word "wicca" or "wiccan." To interestingly, there's a similar word, "Wicce" that means "to bend." Interesting isn't it?

Of course, the problem is when people try to say that "Wiccan"= "Witch" and that "Witchcraft"="Wicca" when thats hardly the case. Semantics alone debunk this idea (interesting that many words for witch in other languages have negative connotations but the "Old English" word is cited as THE WORD*).

But lets play some more. History lessons? Wiccan Witches are also supposed to be the intellectual/spiritual descendants of the "wise women" and midwives of the older world. The Inquisition is cited as trying to stamp out Diana worship (ignoring the mainly financial and political reasons that powered this and the struggles of the Crusades) and that many of these women were the Inquisition's main target. Who was it? Margaret Murray (sp?) who started that song and dance?

I really need to stop ranting about this, but this thread just keeps growing and more idiots flock to it to try and bolster Wicca's reputation.

Nimue

01-24-2008, 12:53 PM

I am Hedgewitch. Simply put - witch alone. I am pagan by faith because I am Polytheist. I believe in God and Goddess.

I won't join any particular religious group of paganism anymore than I could find a church I felt totally comfortable in when I was Christian though I was raised catholic, left the church at age 16 and attended different churches until I began my own study at age 24.

Thought I'd say all that since the thread title says-
Christianity meets Wiccanism.

IMO-
The Inquisition = the Taliban type
Semantics = politics speak, or spinning
prayer = spell casting (The power/energy isn't us but runs through/to/away from us in casting.) Not to say we aren't energy. All things are energy.
Goddesses/God = We have finite minds. We are mortal. How can we possibly complety comprehend the infinate?

But that's MO.

I like being pagan. No one tells me how to dress, wear my hair,not to cut my hair, not to wear make up, and I can cuss like a sailor as long as I'm willing to take the consequences of how it makes me appear and who I may offened.

There's no heaven, no hell and I'm uncertain about reincarnation. I dislike dogmas. They're fractured anyway. (Believe me I know. I live in the buckle of the bible belt. but I'm an ex AirForce brat too. Been around.)

Rainheart

01-24-2008, 03:40 PM

Nimue

01-27-2008, 01:14 PM

Just one thing: how would you know if there is or isn't a heaven and/or hell? The two concepts themselves are of the infinite type, and you yourself said the mortal mind cannot comprehend the infinite.

Because it just doesn't make sense. The concept is (IMO) man made. If you say someone will go to hell if they don't follow particular rules they'll be less likely to argue the point with their religious group (church-coven- whatever). In other words control by fear.

people would like to believe that someone who has done harm will be punished forever or on the flipside a good person would be rewarded forever. The definitions of good and evil are made by the individual church or group or what ever. Where I live the Pentecostals believe a woman who cuts her hair has sinned.:confused:

I believe we all go to the same place after death. but I do believe in a Reckoning where we must face our true selves and the consequences of our actions, (the effect on others and our world). Everyone rationalizes. Everyone makes excuses for themselves. Few believe they cause as much harm as they do and many think themselves more benevolent than they really are.

Think of it like this-
Hitler and his cohorts caused extreme harm that still has repercussions to this day. Having to face that and the fact it still has effect- seeing yourself laid bare like that- must be rather hellish. But there's no FOREVER in it.

On the other end Mother Theresa spent her entire life doing whatever she could toward the helping of mankind. These actions will have a long influence on the people she touched in her life and the people they touched ect... so her rewards will be long going.

I know you'll ask "How do I know that?" I can not say I'm absolutely certain. I've studied many religions and philosphies and the sum of it all is a reckoning just makes more sense.

Keep in mind I'm not trying to convince anyone. I would never do that. Matter of fact I resent people trying to 'convert' me to their ideals. I do not pedal my beliefs door to door like Avon. So I would never dare do the same. All i can say for certain is it gives me peace of mind and hope. That's all I need. That and doing good whenever and wherever I can.

BTW Rainheart- I like your title. Tarot reader?

Rainheart

01-27-2008, 02:10 PM

BTW Rainheart- I like your title. Tarot reader?

A little on the side, yeah.

Nimue

01-28-2008, 04:37 PM

A little on the side, yeah.

Same here. Not in a long time though.

Rainheart

01-29-2008, 06:41 AM

I'm pretty much better with runes, but the cards come out with some good advice too.

UNODRAGONE

01-29-2008, 07:47 AM

Because it just doesn't make sense. The concept is (IMO) man made. If you say someone will go to hell if they don't follow particular rules they'll be less likely to argue the point with their religious group (church-coven- whatever). In other words control by fear.

people would like to believe that someone who has done harm will be punished forever or on the flipside a good person would be rewarded forever. The definitions of good and evil are made by the individual church or group or what ever. Where I live the Pentecostals believe a woman who cuts her hair has sinned.:confused:

I believe we all go to the same place after death. but I do believe in a Reckoning where we must face our true selves and the consequences of our actions, (the effect on others and our world). Everyone rationalizes. Everyone makes excuses for themselves. Few believe they cause as much harm as they do and many think themselves more benevolent than they really are.

Think of it like this-
Hitler and his cohorts caused extreme harm that still has repercussions to this day. Having to face that and the fact it still has effect- seeing yourself laid bare like that- must be rather hellish. But there's no FOREVER in it.

On the other end Mother Theresa spent her entire life doing whatever she could toward the helping of mankind. These actions will have a long influence on the people she touched in her life and the people they touched ect... so her rewards will be long going.

I know you'll ask "How do I know that?" I can not say I'm absolutely certain. I've studied many religions and philosphies and the sum of it all is a reckoning just makes more sense.

Keep in mind I'm not trying to convince anyone. I would never do that. Matter of fact I resent people trying to 'convert' me to their ideals. I do not pedal my beliefs door to door like Avon. So I would never dare do the same. All i can say for certain is it gives me peace of mind and hope. That's all I need. That and doing good whenever and wherever I can.

BTW Rainheart- I like your title. Tarot reader?

Something about this post doesn't make sense to me. You state heaven and hell doesn't make sense but then you state they will have their day of "reckoning" where they are faced with the consequences of their actions :confused: sounds like God passing judgement to me. But then again you stated "people would like to believe that someone who has done harm will be punished forever or on the flipside a good person would be rewarded forever. The definitions of good and evil are made by the individual church or group or what ever" you stated people like to believe that but then you used the understanding of mother Teresa's rewards will be long going (heaven) and Hitler would suffer for what he did (hell) so in essence you are stating good and evil even though I'm sure Hitler would disagree what he did was wrong. I myself hate people who push their beliefs on me as well and that is not what I am trying to do here, I'm just trying to understand this post cause it seems kind of contradictory to me.

Nimue

01-29-2008, 03:50 PM

Sorry I was unclear UNODRAGONE.:(

Many state the 'life flashing before their eyes' experience. If it's full death, not a NDE, I THINK the self examination would be complete, more intense. I THINK after death there is a Truth experience, one of the things few of us can embrace fully in life, the bare bones of truth about yourself (excuse the unintentional pun). Reckoning is just that- when nothing is hidden and you're laid bare to yourself. You feel all the unkindness you committed as well as all the kindness. It's the last part of being human - feeling.

After that I can not say. I have ideas but I'd rather not go into them since I'm not through working that out, and of of late being lazy and falling behind on many things.

That's all any of us can do. Either choose to unquestioningly follow another person's opinion- translations and interperations of Wisdoms, or we can do the same on our own and think for ourselves. Thus- Hedgewitch for me.