Why do you have your religious beliefs?

[ThrasherCub]

We have lots of threads about what religion we are and about the differences between them and what things we agree on between them, but none on why you believe it at all.

Why do you have your religious beliefs or lack thereof?

[philodox]

We have lots of threads about what religion we are and about the differences between them and what things we agree on between them, but none on why you believe it at all.

Why do you have your religious beliefs or lack thereof?

Going back, I think I was originally taken by the idea of polytheism when I was about 7 or 8, reading Greek mythology. Somehow, the idea of just one god didn't thrill to me. Fast-forward a couple decades, and the idea of deities that you could interact with, and seemed less distant, was a bit more comforting to me. And some casual studies have led me to where I am currently.

[DarkHunter]

I don't think I was ever much of a Christian. I do know that at about eleven or twelve I became interesting in religions in general and began bouncing around, applying labels left and right. Anybody who remembers me from back then could tell you. Egyptian Paganism, a really bad religion that I made up, one of the many bastardized forms of Wicca. After awhile I just said "Therian" as that was the only thing I was sure of.

I still consider myself Therian, mostly because I enjoy the exploration of the symbol.

I am a Satanist because I read the Satanic Bible and agree with the principles. It wasn't something I had to change myself to be. Granted I needed to clear out a lot of the spiritualist, religious junk that my mind had been cluttered with.

And again, "Satan" due to my personal identification with, and admiration of the Symbol, as well as the theorized dark force in nature.

[Tempest]

I am not currently anything. I started out as a Christian and actually got warm fuzzy feelings from being in church when I was little. When I was 12 or so my older sister told me she didn't believe in God anymore. I was horrified and asked why. She explained how she just didn't feel God's prescence anymore and how she has started exploring other religions and found that she really disagreed with what the Bible said. She said that there were many contridictions in the Bible and that God didn't seem so merciful to her. After she finished explaining to me how she felt I realized that I felt kind of the same way. A few days later I asked her for help searching for different religions and we stayed up late researching all kinds of things.
One religion that stood out to me was Wicca and I started to read everything about it. My mom actually took me to a therapist because she said I was obsessed with it and it was unhealthy. When I was 16ish I tried to learn a bit about Native American spirituality but was discouraged because there is so little information about it. It seems to be kept secret and varies widely from tribe to tribe. Generally the books I read suggested meeting with people who were members of the tribe. So I gave up on that, since I have no way of getting to any tribes and I don't trust what most people say online.
I've kept some beliefs like totems and a somewhat belief in magic. Guess I can't totally let go of my past beliefs. I'm kind of discouraged at finding a religion that interests me and fits me. It has to interest me because I have a hard time actually observing holidays and doing rituals and such. I guess I just don't feel that connection that I used to feel anymore, which makes it kind of hard to want to do those things.

[UNODRAGONE]

I am extremely tight nit with my family and was brought up Catholic so to me, if my parents believed in it that was good enough for me. When I got older my dad told me never to believe anything someone has told you unless you have researched it to be true yourself, and like Tempest said they were way too many contradictions in the bible and it seemed so man made. I believe in God, my faith in him has never changed but the bible, don't believe a word of it especially when I found out God himself didn't even write it. So thats where mine came from, I also studied Taoism (mainly cause I was in martial arts) and I believe a lot it of it's principles :)

[ThrasherCub]

I was raised in a semi-christian family, but that didn't last long. Probably because I got kicked out of Sunday School. When I was very little I decided that the christian god had to be half evil. If he created everything then that means he created war and disease and hate and pain and Satan himself (knowing full well how evil Satan would become since God knows everything). For some reason the Sunday School wasn't amused by my conclusion and had me removed and my mom wouldn't let me go back. Evidently she frowned upon the idea of having her five year old daughter apologize for using logic.

And so ended my time with a religion! I've always been fascinated by myths and by philosophy and ethics so I spent most of my free time (and time I should have spent doing things like homework or cleaning my room) reading about religion. I eventually found Wicca and accepted it full heartedly - it tended to have the same view on mysticism as I did, it agreed with me about what was right and wrong, and best of all it didn't have dogma oozing out of every corner. I was Wiccan for probably around 5 years, which given that I'm only 21 is kind of an impressive span. But as I kept developing my ideas I found that Wicca could not grow with me, and when I practiced my Wiccan "magick" I was always deeply disappointed, feeling that there was more. One day at the library I checked out a book on tarot cards. I really don't know why I did it since I'd always thought tarot cards (and most other forms of divination) were utter crap. This particular book had pictures from several different decks and I came upon the following:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/ThrasherCub/17-1.jpg
And I almost crapped my pants. That picture awoke something in me, it really did.

That is the Tower Card. The basic interpretation of this card (at least in this deck) is the destruction of all you have in order to set you free (not that I knew that). And it is from Aleister Crowley's Thoth Deck.

Given the profound impact that had on me I naturally began studying Crowley more in depth. I hadn't read much of his works because if you've ever tried to read Crowley you know his stuff is nearly impossible to understand.

The first time I read Liber AL, the main holy book of Thelema, I didn't understand it at all intellectually, but I did walk away with something and I could feel that. It wasn't until about the fourth reading that I got enough out of it intellectually to be able to write even a whole paragraph on it. The amount I have gotten from that tiny book to date is immeasurable. And these deities I commune with in Thelema, I really can feel them, and I can feel love from them though some of it is somewhat interesting (Ra-Hoor-Khu doesn't seem very lovey until you understand him).

And now every time I here the Wiccan perversion of Do What Thou Wilt I just want to hit them with a brick, and my religion supports it. :)

[philodox]

Thoth deck = love.

[Rascaduanok]

Why do you have your religious beliefs or lack thereof?

A variety of reasons. As with most people it comes initially from cultural upbringing and background: I grew up in a muslim household and community. I also love the idea of worship and the way some people can use it to better their lives. I like the Islamic way of peace and the whole (Jewish–derived, I suppose) notion of exegetical analysis of sacred texts.

But I read too much and have too much scientific study under my belt. I’d like a God to exist, one that doesn’t demand we worship Him in formal ways (as opposed to free worship of the heart), but I’ve never really felt Him or His presence. I’ve slowly come to realise that I simply don’t believe. Not believe as such — I just don’t care. My living means that God doesn’t really enter my active life (though I think about religion a lot).

I’ve studied Middle Eastern religions a lot, and I see all the monotheistic religions as a gradual — and sometimes sudden — break from the old paganistic ways. I see the human evolution of religion too much to give it spiritual credence.

But because of my upbringing, and love for my family and community, I feel compelled to defend their way of life — especially when outsiders viciously attack them, verbally or physically.

[jordanhitler]

We have lots of threads about what religion we are and about the differences between them and what things we agree on between them, but none on why you believe it at all.

Why do you have your religious beliefs or lack thereof?


Well, like most of us, I started out a Christian, not even sure what kind of Christian so lets just say a christian, goddamn it mozilla I do NOT need to capitalize that word!!...

...anyway, I knew christianity had something to do with god and Jesus and a bunch of old guys doing stuff and kicking other peoples asses because they didn't believe in god and/or jesus so they deserved it... made sense to a six year old i suppose. I never put much thought into religion, until eventually, my father got married to a woman who was overly catholic and, caring more about his new wife then his blood children, I was put into the weekly routine of sunday church, I was baptized and given communion and had to confess all that stuff I wasn't really sorry for to some priest guy, at this point, kind of drawing away from christianity as a religion and some-what looking to other religions.

Eventually, and for some reason I can't quite remember, I started getting interested in the bible and reading it and asking more question at that catholic schooly thingie. Slowly I was being lured into christianity, and the straw that broke the camels back was me reading the ENTIRE left behind series, curse my young, feeble mind for being so easily corruptible... So at that time for a bit I was an Uber catholic and tried to convince everyone to be christians and then I quit but I was still an Uber catholic. Eventually I discovered contradictions in the bible but maintained the idea that there was still a god and he was a pure all loving super duper god. Eventually, a series of worldly events and personal events, and perhaps personal realization led me to believe that most of the corruption lay within religion, however, I still maintained monotheistic.

Eventually I abandoned the idea of god altogether and was very depressed. However, new religions, such as atheism, Buddhism and such came to light and I began exploring. However, I fond neither to be acceptable, nor active enough for me. At this time I was growing quite frustrated with the popular religions as their injustices became increasingly apparent to me.

While on a bogus internet search one day I came across the church of Satan. At first I thought it hysterical and left it alone for a while. At time being I was agnostic, that is, neither believing nor disbelieving in anything. I talked with a psychologist about religion for a bit, didn't do much good, but at least game me insights to others opinions. Slowly though, I found myself needing something, something to love, something to hate, I needed some sort of god to curse and to beg to and I did not have it in me to act it out appropriately other than not act at all. I researched a bit more into what was called "Satanism" and one day I came across the satanic bible and sneaked it into my room. I read it for a while and was instantly fascinated. I was going to be a satanist

One day however, the book was found by my father and at request of my step-mother was burned. I wasn't allowed to pick my religion, I wasn't allowed to believe what I wanted to believe. I hated christianity, I hated catholics, I hated going to catholic school, I hated my parents for making me go, and I hated them for making me believe what they wanted me to. At this point I was alone with nothing, no god, no religion, just me.

A while later I came across yet another satanic bible, and this time I was more careful, and defiant to keep it secret. I did keep my book, and I read it more carefully and made an active effort to understand it. At this point, I was a satanist, but not trully. What I had done what to live up to the image of a satanist, I couldn't live up to that image, I couldn't really be myself, I was what Anton Lavey wanted me to be.

Thats when my self-proclaimed title came to mind. I live by satanism, because I live by me. I am (name)ism, I am me, I am my god, I am my devil. For the first time in my life, I could appreciate myself for exactly the way I was, and if there was something I didn't like about myself, well then I better make damn sure to change my... religion.

[DarkWolf]

Open minded logic + natural preference.

[dirtyrat]

I began, while in chidhood, as a christian (I even had a bible with my name on the cover :D ), but we moved SO much that my mom bounced me from church to church, and I got sick of that. AND the fact of EARLY Sunday school (who in the hell wants to wake up that early, dress up, etc. *barf*). People listen up! Church exists due to the fact we have women on this planet -of whom wish to go (why? who knows), as well as drag us men/boys along...( I`ve never known a guy who wouldn`t rather stay home, in bed, to watch sports or whatever)

Anyway, along the way my dad tells me that there isn't anything after death, "That's ALL folks!". I LIKE to believe there`s something after "all this life stuff". I also think most people end up beleiving in God -BUT in their own way of perceiving (twisting?) Him.
As you get older ALL people (I beleive) want(must?) have something to look forwards to (happy/magical thinking). Death itself will always be a scary thing -for It is the unknown. When I was younger Death had no hold over me. Now, hmmm, I`m not sure...

In the end this subject (religious beliefs) all boils down to the unknown. What is the unknown? Define it in your lifespan, if you can.
Unknown Subjects
1. What's after death? (if anything)
2. Are there aliens ?(besides LV426)
3. Is Rat really a 40yr old virgin?
4. Is magic real? (Moses wasn't the only one who could turn a staff into a snake. That is right, yes?)
5. Are we really made of uncanny "strings" (right now I feel like I`m made of gas -only. too much chilie I fear)

[ThrasherCub]

I enjoy your list of unknowns. :) That was one of the things which really turned me off to a lot of religions; must you claim to have answers to everything? I doubt you can do it and where's the fun in that anyway? That's one of the things I was delighted to find in my religion. We've decided that more important than knowing if there's aliens (for example) is the experience of deciding that for yourself.

[blueeyes]

My head's not really set up right for religious belief, so I don't really see much point in believing or not believing. I guess that puts me in the agnostic side of the pile, to the point of having no real spiritual knowledge. There seem to be some people who do need some sort of religious beliefs to really be in their best condition, and likewise some people who benefit from believing that there is nothing, though, so that probably puts me on the more deist side of agnostic.

I'm a soulless animal. Asking where everything comes from or where everything goes in the end just don't make sense. From an objective viewpoint, I know that everything probably wasn't always in existence, and why most folk don't want to assume that they'll avoid the same fate roadkill does, but for me thinking like that is like trying to deal with imaginary numbers. There's no way to visualize it, play around with physical models, or talk about it, that resonates with how the world is conceptualized for me. This makes the whole thing a much more academic discussion.

A couple of my first mentors were either atheist or agnostic. While I don't think they really influenced my way of seeing the world because of that, their low opinions of a lot of the popular religions led me to be a little less understanding of Christian viewpoints than I really should have been. On the other side of things, one of them recommended some pretty hefty reading of various translations of the <i>Tao te Ching</i> and some popular zen koans. While he downplayed the religious aspects of these works, thinking about them, and using them to understand things better, tends to result in some rather contradictory and falsifiable beliefs that could well be considered matters of faith. I tend to keep them.

[Rascaduanok]

I enjoy your list of unknowns. :) That was one of the things which really turned me off to a lot of religions; must you claim to have answers to everything? I doubt you can do it and where's the fun in that anyway?
In reference to Middle Eastern prophets and subsequent religions, I think the problem consisted of the fact that if you didn’t immediately (or almost immediately — Muhammad had the ‘get out’ clause in that he would receive revelations every so often, so when faced with a sticky question he could retire for a while to think about it and come back with an answer later) answer questions about everything people wouldn’t take you seriously.

Again, due to my coming from a muslim background I can use Islam to illustrate this best: cheeky fuckers in Medinah would LOL at Muhammad’s preaching, then go out and untie his camel. When he’d stand there scratching his head and wondering where the buggering hell his camel had wandered off to, those same people would point and laugh at him. “Look at him!” they’d say. “A so–called Prophet, so why doesn’t he know where his camel went??!”

[DarkHunter]

Again, due to my coming from a muslim background I can use Islam to illustrate this best: cheeky fuckers in Medinah would LOL at Muhammad’s preaching, then go out and untie his camel. When he’d stand there scratching his head and wondering where the buggering hell his camel had wandered off to, those same people would point and laugh at him. “Look at him!” they’d say. “A so–called Prophet, so why doesn’t he know where his camel went??!”


Sounds like something I would do.

But thats the big problem religions will always have that people defined by religious ideas but not necessarily religious systems (atheism for instance). The burden of proof lies with the person trying to prove the positive. "God exists." Prove it. "God doesn't exist." Prove it? No, prove that he does.

Or if you're me.

"Why do I care if God exists? I have my own problems to solve." The battle cry of the Ignostic I-Theist.

[Rascaduanok]

The burden of proof lies with the person trying to prove the positive.
Almost. Within Logic, the onus probandi lies with the person making any assertion. So if someone says that God exists, that person needs to prove it. In the same way, if someone declare God does NOT exist, then that person needs to prove it too.

[WahteverKittyK]

I call myself agnostic. When I was little my father jumped religions quickly trying to find himself. We tried Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, read up on Native American beliefs (I like the idea of the spirit that moves through us all), and whatnot. He was more of a scholar than anything. The only thing he really believed in was nature, he could preach religion till he was blue in the face and you knew it wasn't in his heart.
Anyway, I have a small library on different religions and while theres something in all of them that rings true, I just dont know. And until some God or Goddess reveals themselves to me, I'll remain agnostic.

[DarkWolf]

Almost. Within Logic, the onus probandi lies with the person making any assertion. So if someone says that God exists, that person needs to prove it. In the same way, if someone declare God does NOT exist, then that person needs to prove it too.
You can't prove non-existence. The best you get is lack of proof of its existence which only proves there's no proof.

It's not as if you can go to some gaping void and say "this void proves God's nonexistence". There is no way to prove the nonexistence of something.

[blueeyes]

That's not entirely true, DarkWolf. Humans have proven, for example, that there is no way to square a circle with an ideal compass and straightedge within a finite number of steps. Turing came up with a few dozen other proofs of impossibility, which are also proofs that a specific solution does not exist.

But I'll agree that, generally, proving non-existence is remarkably difficult (outside the more obvious cases). That doesn't change the requirement to make a logical proof, though; it's very difficult for humans to prove Fermat's last theorem, but it's not considered logically proven until the proof is actually present, no matter how much evidence goes to the reverse.

Thankfully (or not), most people don't use logical proofs in their normal lives, and thus the metric for a practical proof lies more on the individual receiving the conjecture than anything else.

[DarkWolf]

That's not entirely true, DarkWolf. Humans have proven, for example, that there is no way to square a circle with an ideal compass and straightedge within a finite number of steps. Turing came up with a few dozen other proofs of impossibilityThat's a proof of impossibility, it's not the same as nonexistence. It's entirely possible for there to be a God. It doesn't mean he exists. It's entirely possible for there to be an invisible pink ghost elephant following you, can you prove there isn't?

Possibility and existence are entirely different concepts.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

That's a proof of impossibility, it's not the same as nonexistence. It's entirely possible for there to be a God. It doesn't mean he exists. It's entirely possible for there to be an invisible pink ghost elephant following you, can you prove there isn't?

Possibility and existence are entirely different concepts.

If god is almighty, he can create a rock so big he can't lift it. If god cannot lift the rock, then he is not almighty. Thus, an almighty god cannot exist. He could, although, be nearly almighty.

[DarkWolf]

If god is almighty, he can create a rock so big he can't lift it. If god cannot lift the rock, then he is not almighty. Thus, an almighty god cannot exist. He could, although, be nearly almighty.
Firstly that's been covered before.

Secondly, that's not relevant to anything I said so why are you quoting me?

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

Firstly that's been covered before.

Secondly, that's not relevant to anything I said so why are you quoting me?


Sorry, I was not aware of that.

I do think it is relewant to your discussion with blueeyes about proof of gods eksistance/non-eksistance.

[DarkWolf]

Sorry, I was not aware of that.

I do think it is relewant to your discussion with blueeyes about proof of gods eksistance/non-eksistance.
It's "existence" it's been used many times in this thread, in my quote, and even "exist" you used correctly. Next time, just do the same thing only add "ence" to the end. Even if you forget that part just think, it's spelled how it is pronounced (so where you get "ance" from is beyond me, existence is pronounced in a way that rhymes with "fence" and there's no exceptions to spelling - so it's spelled nigh phonetically).

Anyway, no, it isn't. I'm talking about directly proving non-existence. Halfbrained human logic for something that is naturally defined to be beyond our logical capability to understand is not proof of anything at any level whatsoever.

So, I see the point to the often used logic conundrum, but still fail to see the actual relevance.

[BlackRosePhantom]

As just about everyone else, I was born Christian. Around the time that I was four, I went to some kind of church that was really dark. Almost the entire building (from what I remember) was made of this dark wood. I was next to Momma Rose (foster mother), and we sat there listening to these nuns singing something in really deep pitched voices from I presumed was a stage. It was scary, the singing more so than the darkness of the place (though at was still a bit creepy, and yes, I didn't always love darkness :eek:). Then, from the Christmas I remember having over there, I got no presents at all (which made me sad, I still believed in Santa at that time, but not for long).

At the age of five, I went to another foster home which would be the family that adopted me and my brother. We (me and my brother) then started going Hebrew school after we were adopted at six. I liked being Jewish better, I got presents during Hanukkah, unlike Christmas. Later, when the actual aspects of religions and their differences got to me (I was naive when I was young, very naive, never thinking outside of the information brought to me, and Jesus nor Judaism was never shoved down my throat at such a young age), I felt that Judaism wasn't really working either though I still kept at it since it seemed to be the most believable of the religions that I heard of/knew things about. Then in sixth grade, my read a Buddhist passage, and connected with it, though I still never really jumped at it and out of Judaism (I guess I was just a bit nervous about denouncing Judaism). When it came for my bar-mitzvah, I said that I did have questions about my faith, but still decided to stick with it, the most regrettable thing I've ever done (cause now donations are made to 'my' synagogue in my name during my birthday :mad:). It was about than two months later, after being glued to the Science Channel/Nat Geo during all my free time, and thinking over about it all when I wasn't glued to the TV (which kept me up late at night even when I wanted to get to sleep). I was already vegetarian and knew of my sexuality at that point, and then thinking back to the stuff said in the Torah, as well as the bible, combined with all the information I soaked up, I decided that god was a mere fable.

To me, humans invented religion as a means to explain all those questions out their that we all deeply wonder at least once in our lives. We knew none of the information that we know today, so we made things up to best answer those questions as we could. Some made humans above all others, made us so special, so beloved, which are the selfish religions. Others still put us quite a few places above animals, but not to the point where animals are on this planet for our uses and our uses alone. Others still have humans a mere step above the other animals on this Earth. In my mind, humans are no higher than any animal, though nor our we any lower, for I believe there is no scale that determines whether one animal is greater than the other. Every animal, including us, has there own unique strengths and weaknesses. Humans aren't special in the least. Many think we are, but if you take the time to view each quality that we have which makes us "above" other animals, you'll find that there are other animals that have at least one of those qualities. Science has shown me that just about everything that religious text have said, can be proven by other scientific means. I just need cold, hard physical evidence to go by, which religion doesn't provide for me.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

It's "existence" it's been used many times in this thread, in my quote, and even "exist" you used correctly. Next time, just do the same thing only add "ence" to the end. Even if you forget that part just think, it's spelled how it is pronounced (so where you get "ance" from is beyond me, existence is pronounced in a way that rhymes with "fence" and there's no exceptions to spelling - so it's spelled nigh phonetically).

Anyway, no, it isn't. I'm talking about directly proving non-existence. Halfbrained human logic for something that is naturally defined to be beyond our logical capability to understand is not proof of anything at any level whatsoever.

So, I see the point to the often used logic conundrum, but still fail to see the actual relevance.

If you look at it that way, so do I. I'm afraid I misunderstood what you meant. I'll try to use spellcheck more often to prevent further grammatical errors.

[Destiny]

Who should care if you spelled it wrong anyway, it's not like people having an in-depth conversation about religion wouldn't be able to understand what you said.:)

[Ookamiotoko]

Well, I'm a bit overwhelemed by the postings that I can comment on anything, still I can agree with Destiny on her last post(the one above me) about the spelling issue...

[Destiny]

Thank you...:)

[Ookamiotoko]

YW (Your welcome):)

[ThrasherCub]

Please keep things like that in PM. :)

[Faolan]

As just about everyone else, I was born Christian. Around the time that I was four, I went to some kind of church that was really dark. Almost the entire building (from what I remember) was made of this dark wood. I was next to Momma Rose (foster mother), and we sat there listening to these nuns singing something in really deep pitched voices from I presumed was a stage. It was scary, the singing more so than the darkness of the place (though at was still a bit creepy, and yes, I didn't always love darkness :eek:). Then, from the Christmas I remember having over there, I got no presents at all (which made me sad, I still believed in Santa at that time, but not for long).

It is interesting to know that you are a foster kid. This is information that I've never known before. I'm sorry that your early childhood wasn't as pleasant as others.


At the age of five, I went to another foster home which would be the family that adopted me and my brother. We (me and my brother) then started going Hebrew school after we were adopted at six. I liked being Jewish better, I got presents during Hanukkah, unlike Christmas. Later, when the actual aspects of religions and their differences got to me (I was naive when I was young, very naive, never thinking outside of the information brought to me, and Jesus nor Judaism was never shoved down my throat at such a young age), I felt that Judaism wasn't really working either though I still kept at it since it seemed to be the most believable of the religions that I heard of/knew things about.

It seems allot of people go through this phase in their lives, it is not unique nor is it common but it's just a fact of life. We have doubts, all of us. Even the most pious of us can have doubt.


Then in sixth grade, my read a Buddhist passage, and connected with it, though I still never really jumped at it and out of Judaism (I guess I was just a bit nervous about denouncing Judaism). When it came for my bar-mitzvah, I said that I did have questions about my faith, but still decided to stick with it, the most regrettable thing I've ever done (cause now donations are made to 'my' synagogue in my name during my birthday :mad:).

Explain this better. Are you saying that you yourself are making donations this year or someone else in your stead is doing this? Because from what you are saying you denounced Judaism. Either way whats the problem? This is an act of charity.


It was about than two months later, after being glued to the Science Channel/Nat Geo during all my free time, and thinking over about it all when I wasn't glued to the TV (which kept me up late at night even when I wanted to get to sleep). I was already vegetarian and knew of my sexuality at that point, and then thinking back to the stuff said in the Torah, as well as the bible, combined with all the information I soaked up, I decided that god was a mere fable.

To each their own I guess, thank you for not denouncing others beliefs in you statement.


To me, humans invented religion as a means to explain all those questions out their that we all deeply wonder at least once in our lives. We knew none of the information that we know today, so we made things up to best answer those questions as we could. Some made humans above all others, made us so special, so beloved, which are the selfish religions. Others still put us quite a few places above animals, but not to the point where animals are on this planet for our uses and our uses alone. Others still have humans a mere step above the other animals on this Earth. In my mind, humans are no higher than any animal, though nor our we any lower, for I believe there is no scale that determines whether one animal is greater than the other. Every animal, including us, has there own unique strengths and weaknesses. Humans aren't special in the least.

Okay, this is where I disagree. Humanity is special in the fact we have higher reasoning skills, communication, intellect, and the ability to drastically change our environment. That is our strengths and we are unique for it because no other animal has the previously said abilities at our level or higher. Sad to say, another way we prove that we are "special" to other animals is the fact we can choose to destroy our own environment. We can be self-destructive by our own free will.


Many think we are,

and rightly so...


but if you take the time to view each quality that we have which makes us "above" other animals, you'll find that there are other animals that have at least one of those qualities. Science has shown me that just about everything that religious text have said, can be proven by other scientific means. I just need cold, hard physical evidence to go by, which religion doesn't provide for me.

[BlackRosePhantom]

Explain this better. Are you saying that you yourself are making donations this year or someone else in your stead is doing this? Because from what you are saying you denounced Judaism. Either way whats the problem? This is an act of charity.

The donation was made in my name, but without my consent, which is the part I don't like. I don't have a problem with religious establishments, though I don't really support them either. I, myself, wouldn't donate to them, though putting the donation in my name makes it seem as if I would. It's like someone else supporting your rival/enemy while you take the credit. I thus regret saying that I'd stick with Judaism at my bar-mitzvah since thats is the primary reason why these donations are being made in the first place.

[DarkHunter]

Okay, this is where I disagree. Humanity is special in the fact we have higher reasoning skills, communication, intellect, and the ability to drastically change our environment. That is our strengths and we are unique for it because no other animal has the previously said abilities at our level or higher. Sad to say, another way we prove that we are "special" to other animals is the fact we can choose to destroy our own environment. We can be self-destructive by our own free will.



I fail to see how that makes us "higher" or somehow "better" than other animals. Different, yes. But better? I think if there is a logical, objective scale, that would place us lower. Perhaps the only reason I'll allow for us to be on par with other animals is the fact that we have managed to survive our own stupidity thus far.

"Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!"

Words to always remember.

BlackRose, as for the whole synagogue thing, why care? Its not your money is it? Just a lousy present.

[Faolan]

You know Dark I'm not exactly certain how to respond to that. Believe in what you want but please know that I will certainly never call you or anyone for that matter lower than an animal... that comes off being rather offensive. I know your not intending to offend me so I appreciate that.

As for how we are "higher" than animals... heres a clue, your using a computer...

[Destiny]

And though, primates such as a Chimpanzee, can probably use a computer, they, unlike us, have to be taught how to use it. We adapt to using certain things, and figure out how if we aren't taught already.

[Tempest]

And though, primates such as a Chimpanzee, can probably use a computer, they, unlike us, have to be taught how to use it.

And we...don't? It's not adaption when someone tells you how to double click on an icon to open a new window, or tells you how to defrag your harddrive. I once was working at the library during a senior computer class. The poor teacher had to keep telling the one old guy that he could pick up his mouse to keep it on the mousepad. The man had his mouse halfway across the desk trying to make it get to the icon.

We adapt to using certain things, and figure out how if we aren't taught already.

Other animals do that, too. For example, my old dog (she died earlier this year) could not figure out how to get her ball out of a corner. She'd try to bite at it but couldn't get it because it was kind of big. We got a new dog and she had the same problem at first. Then she figure out that she could use her paw like a hand and paw at the ball until it rolled away from the corner. We didn't teach her that. She taught herself.

I don't necessarily agree that we are below animals, but we are equal. I believe that every animal is special in it's own way and that no animal can truly call itself higher than the others. I sound like a kindergarten teacher don't I? But my beliefs about this come from working with animal totems, who have taught ME a lot. If animals can teach ME who am I to say that I'm ABOVE them?

[Destiny]

Yes, that is true, animals do adapt as well, but besides our own personal animals or animals that venture from their natural habitat, there doesn't seem to be many animals that adapt as well as a human does, but I do see your point, nicely stated.

And I wouldn't mind being taught by an animal, who says you can't teach a human animal tricks...:)

[Tempest]

there doesn't seem to be many animals that adapt as well as a human does

Says who? Coyotes, for instance, have adapted so well that they can now live anywhere from the plains to mountains to cities (much like us). If a creature does not adapt, it will become extinct. Whatever animals you see around you today have adapted. Just because we feel a need to make huge homes and make our own food does not mean we have adapted better or are higher evolved. We no longer observe the "leave the land as you found it" creed that native Americans preached. Other animals, in this way, are smarter, don't you think? We know what we're doing to the earth but we keep on doing it. Isn't this stupidity in it's true form? We give ourselves far too much credit. We aren't above other animals as much as we may think or hope we are.

[Destiny]

Ahh... thanks for saying so, and I didn't say there weren't I just couldn't think of any at the moment. And about the extinction part, some animal species didn't, which is the bad part, and now they are dead.

[Kaden]

And though, primates such as a Chimpanzee, can probably use a computer, they, unlike us, have to be taught how to use it. We adapt to using certain things, and figure out how if we aren't taught already.

While we do have to be taught to use the computer, and while a chimp can possibly be taught to use it as well, there is a stark difference in capabilities. For example, could a chimp learn C++, HTML, Java, PHP, or Flash? Could they use Adobe Photoshop, GIMP, Dreamweaver, Opencavas, or Illustrator? Could a chimp open a PDF document or even know how to put notations on it? Could they edit or even create a PDF? What about checking email? Sending one? Or posting on a forum?

Some how I doubt they could.

A human has the capability for greatness. We are able to do things that other animals can through our intelligence. We have no wings, yet can fly. We have no gills, yet we can travel to the some of furthest depths of the ocean. We don't have fur coats, and yet we can manage to survive some of the coldest climates. We are not streamlined, yet we can travel faster than a cheetah.

So we are inferior how?

[Cheater388]

I had religious beliefs because I thought there was something more than life. Four years ago, I didn't like life. I was whining, bitching, complaining, all because I didn't get what I want. At the same time, I had a huge imagination and a lot of time. I took to a certain religion apart from the one I was born in. It wasn't much, just a few things here and there, but it had a positive impact on my mindset and it was a huge deal to me. I kept on dreaming of on afterlife, thinking that it's going to happen, while I became more polite in the mouth, body and mind. I eventually came to the full realization that it was never going to happen and I abandoned all concepts entirely once I lost my imagination and time. Life sucks worse than before, but I deal with it better than I ever did, and I wish I could go back.

[DarkHunter]

You know Dark I'm not exactly certain how to respond to that. Believe in what you want but please know that I will certainly never call you or anyone for that matter lower than an animal... that comes off being rather offensive. I know your not intending to offend me so I appreciate that.

As for how we are "higher" than animals... heres a clue, your using a computer...

Why is the capacity to use a computer better than the capacity, say, to fly without outside mechanical assistance (like planes)? Why is the capacity to build our little deathtraps and kill each other better than being able to build colonies of dirt using spit? Or Build webs to catch flies?

What makes our advantage any better objectively than any other advantage in the animal kingdom? Because we can destroy our environment, we are somehow better than all other animals? Quite frankly, I think animals are better in that they know better than to destroy their environment.

We have survived thus far. Congrats Humanity. Will we continue to do so? Time will tell. Survival is the only objective standard concerning advantages and adaptations (our capacity to use computers or a spider's capacity to build a web). But survival isn't much of a standard because you don't know what the future could bring. And like I said, how is being able to destroy ourselves seen as a "higher" thing?

The truth is, we are "great" and "higher" by our own standards. Our IQ is no better an advantage than any other in the world of living things. We survive with it (and we survive it) so its Good. Spiders survive with building webs and thats Good. One is not better than another.

Faolan, it only is offensive to people who aren't animal lovers or people who have weak egos and can't conceive of something real that they can go out and touch being greater than themselves.

[Kaden]

Its the mere fact that we can actually build the means to help us fly that illustrate how intelligent and advanced the human race is.

[Galliard]

[QUOTE=Kaden;246327]While we do have to be taught to use the computer, and while a chimp can possibly be taught to use it as well, there is a stark difference in capabilities. For example, could a chimp learn C++, HTML, Java, PHP, or Flash? Could they use Adobe Photoshop, GIMP, Dreamweaver, Opencavas, or Illustrator? Could a chimp open a PDF document or even know how to put notations on it? Could they edit or even create a PDF? What about checking email? Sending one? Or posting on a forum?

Some how I doubt they could.



Heheheh, I don't think I could learn some of those things...I'm quite a bit computer illiterate (sp?) and tend to crash computers when I attempt anything other than slight poking around...
:D :shrug: :drool:

[DarkHunter]

Its the mere fact that we can actually build the means to help us fly that illustrate how intelligent and advanced the human race is.

That doesn't make us better than other animals or "higher." Just more intelligent.

I'm not disputing humanity's higher IQ.

[ThrasherCub]

That doesn't make us better than other animals or "higher." Just more intelligent.

Yes, and we can use this intelligence to devise ways to mimic the abilities we do not have naturally. You mentioned that we can't fly naturally, which is true. But we have figured out how to fly in spite of this. Any other animals without wings figure this one out? Or what about being able to visit the depths of the ocean?

Once lions can fly and badgers can go a mile under water I'll agree that our intelligence doesn't make us better.

[BlackRosePhantom]

Yes, and we can use this intelligence to devise ways to mimic the abilities we do not have naturally. You mentioned that we can't fly naturally, which is true. But we have figured out how to fly in spite of this. Any other animals without wings figure this one out? Or what about being able to visit the depths of the ocean?

Actually, we know more about the Sun, our Moon, Mars, and Venus all individually than we do about the depths of our own ocean. We haven't even seen one percent of the ocean floor. Humans have never personally been below a few hundred feet in the ocean. Also, out of any other animal that can fly, naturally or not, we crash far more than any other. Squirrels and lemurs have taken to the skies yet they don't have wings. Heck, they could glide ten time farther than the Wright brothers could ever fly. Dolphins can naturally go down into depths much farther than 300 feet in the ocean, more than five times in their lives. Primates are the tool builders of the animal kingdom. Humans have mastered tool building. Humans might be able to do the things that other animals can do with the help of our tools, but we can't do them as much as the animals who can do it naturally. If a plane took off and landed as many times a day as a hawk, eagle or even pigeon, it would be out of fuel and in major need of repair or else it would crash. Every tool that we have which is designed for 'repeated use' will need maintenance.

[DarkHunter]

Yes, and we can use this intelligence to devise ways to mimic the abilities we do not have naturally. You mentioned that we can't fly naturally, which is true. But we have figured out how to fly in spite of this. Any other animals without wings figure this one out? Or what about being able to visit the depths of the ocean?

Once lions can fly and badgers can go a mile under water I'll agree that our intelligence doesn't make us better.

But what makes any of that objectively better? Its arbitrarily moral, a distinction built on the fact that you're human. You think you're better than other animals because you're human. Its the same as a rich person thinking they're better than the poor cause they have money or the poor thinking they're better because they're not snooty.

I mean, I prefer being a human, naturally. But I recognize the inherent subjectivity of that notion.

By human standards, we're better. But that doesn't mean we really are. That just means we think we are.

[Lysander]

Actually, we know more about the Sun, our Moon, Mars, and Venus all individually than we do about the depths of our own ocean. We haven't even seen one percent of the ocean floor. Humans have never personally been below a few hundred feet in the ocean. Also, out of any other animal that can fly, naturally or not, we crash far more than any other. Squirrels and lemurs have taken to the skies yet they don't have wings. Heck, they could glide ten time farther than the Wright brothers could ever fly. Dolphins can naturally go down into depths much farther than 300 feet in the ocean, more than five times in their lives. Primates are the tool builders of the animal kingdom. Humans have mastered tool building. Humans might be able to do the things that other animals can do with the help of our tools, but we can't do them as much as the animals who can do it naturally. If a plane took off and landed as many times a day as a hawk, eagle or even pigeon, it would be out of fuel and in major need of repair or else it would crash. Every tool that we have which is designed for 'repeated use' will need maintenance.

In the animal kingdom, greatness is determined by survival of the fittest right? Strongest survive? Well since humanity is so good at tool building, we can build the tools to be stronger than any animal. But please, could somebody point me to the chimpanzee metropolis with the skyscrapers, or the handgun, saw, or glasses they have made? Humans are animals by classification, but get real people, intellect elevates us above the rest of the animals, makes us superior. Because of our intellect, we are the dominant species on the planet unquestionably.

[BlackRosePhantom]

But what makes any of that objectively better? Its arbitrarily moral, a distinction built on the fact that you're human. You think you're better than other animals because you're human. Its the same as a rich person thinking they're better than the poor cause they have money or the poor thinking they're better because they're not snooty.

I mean, I prefer being a human, naturally. But I recognize the inherent subjectivity of that notion.

By human standards, we're better. But that doesn't mean we really are. That just means we think we are.

:notworthy Thank you! :notworthy

[ThrasherCub]

Actually, we know more about the Sun, our Moon, Mars, and Venus all individually than we do about the depths of our own ocean.
Irrelevant. The point was the ability to physically go into the ocean.

Squirrels and lemurs have taken to the skies yet they don't have wings. Heck, they could glide ten time farther than the Wright brothers could ever fly.
Gliding is not the same thing as flying. And they have physical appendages which make that possible. You missed my point.


Dolphins can naturally go down into depths much farther than 300 feet in the ocean, more than five times in their lives.
Yes, and they are SEA animals. You're not even paying attention.

But what makes any of that objectively better?
I'm not entirely sure what it would mean to be objective in this case since we need something by which to gauge all of this. Since we're discussing who can do what (keeping in mind that you were the one who pointed out that animals are not inferior because they can do things like fly), I'd say yeah that makes us better.

If you make a check list of things different species can do, humans have more things covered by a huge margin.

[Tempest]

I don't get how our intelligence makes us better. Without it we are nothing. Just like a cheetah without it's speed is nothing, or a bird without wings is nothing. It's just our niche, nothing more.

[Eldric]

It is true that we have far more capabilities than most animals thanks to our intelligence. However since we lack the foresight and proper understanding of how to use this intelligence it might be more a curse than a blessing. Thanks to us thousands of animals have gone extinct in fact we are experiencing a mass extinction and a fast one at that. Not to mention all of the horrible things we do to our own species. If anything I would say we may actually be worst than all of the other animals. Anyway this thread seems to have digressed from its intended discussion. So as for my religious beliefs well I don't really have any specific religion at the moment. I was born a Christian but it just didn't suit me. I do however believe in some kind of afterlife (although I do not have any clue what it could be).

[Lysander]

Gosh all you people are doing is looking at the bad things that humanity does. How about the many good things eh? Like the ability to save other species from themselves, art, written language, culture, civilization? All these things that beyond a doubt proclaim us the dominant species on the planet we have because of our intelligence capabilities.

[Vendetta]

I don't get how our intelligence makes us better. Without it we are nothing. Just like a cheetah without it's speed is nothing, or a bird without wings is nothing. It's just our niche, nothing more.
No, I think you may be confusing intelligence on this website for intelligence in the human race.

On a more serious note I fail to see how intelligence is a niche. It allows us to do all those things that you call a niche in other animals (speed, wings for flying, etc.) I'd hardly call that a niche.

Also, for once, I agree with Lysander. God I feel so dirty.

[Ookamiotoko]

I'll just say this (well quote),"So long as we are alive we are not dead" and this is directed to every species in this world. Inteligence humans have obtained and other species can obtain it too but in diffrent ways. Same goes for wisdom but every living this is not like the other nor ever will, there may be similarities but never will there be an exact copy of you...back on topic, who cares if we are the smarter race or if we are the most advanced, we are still living beings just like the wild life in this world, we just interprit that it was made for us which is what will be humanities down fall, and in my belief it's also what drove Jesus to his demise in living terms and why we have issues in this world...We are not I repeat, we are not better than a bug nor less any other animal in this world, and why, because they can live and die just the same as us...

Its a dog eat dog world and will be that way for as long as there is life in this world

[Destiny]

And being a dog eat dog world, we would no doubt stoop to saving ourselves over everyone else in the end, not that everyone would but many would.

[Ookamiotoko]

Yes, but thats why we have emotions...if we were careless people who can't feel a thing then what are we doing here in the first place? In the end however we are just existing...(sigh)... just existing...

[DarkHunter]

I have a habit of pulling from the wider world things to bolster my arguments. And this I got from the History Channel show "MonsterQuest":

"Our view of intelligence is very human. For instance, if you put me in the Congo, the fact that I can do precalculus or play the piano would matter very little."

[CelticMagick]

I believe there could be a god, but I also think every one is equal, there Is no higher person, it will take a lot to convince me that there is a “God”

[Ookamiotoko]

Well I dont belive there is a god but I do belive that there is a power out there that keeps the univeers ticking like a clock....also that power can be in the shape of anything from a grain of sand to the Universe itself.

[Tempest]

I believe there could be a god, but I also think every one is equal, there Is no higher person, it will take a lot to convince me that there is a “God”

Wow it's amazing how much a 13 year old can in change about 3 months.

CelticMagick and Ookamiotoko, the thread asks for why you have your beliefs. Not just what they are.

[CelticMagick]

Wow it's amazing how much a 13 year old can in change about 3 months.

CelticMagick and Ookamiotoko, the thread asks for why you have your beliefs. Not just what they are.

Ummm... i am not 13 i am 15... I have never seen annything that shows me that there is a God,

[Ookamiotoko]

Wow it's amazing how much a 13 year old can in change about 3 months.

CelticMagick and Ookamiotoko, the thread asks for why you have your beliefs. Not just what they are.

Ok then, the reason I dont belive there is a god out there but a powerful force or so out there is the reason of the existance of the universe, who created it or how was it created (I dont belive the Big Bang theory) and if there is someone out there with a power that keeps the Universe in order then it cant be just a god but something out there and there has to be more to that than a human life can understand...

[DarkWolf]

Ok then, the reason I dont belive there is a god out there but a powerful force or so out there is the reason of the existance of the universe, who created it or how was it created (I dont belive the Big Bang theory) and if there is someone out there with a power that keeps the Universe in order then it cant be just a god but something out there and there has to be more to that than a human life can understand...
You say you believe in something that's not God, but created everything and is a balancing power greater than we could ever understand - just like a god?

I don't exactly follow that. You're aware that the common montheistic view of God is an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent creator, surveyor and balancer of all things. So really your view is: something that's exactly like a god but isn't?

[Ookamiotoko]

You say you believe in something that's not God, but created everything and is a balancing power greater than we could ever understand - just like a god?

I don't exactly follow that. You're aware that the common montheistic view of God is an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent creator, surveyor and balancer of all things. So really your view is: something that's exactly like a god but isn't?

More like something that can be as powerful as the universe but is in the shape of a grain of rice. Close but not the exact same thing...

[DarkWolf]

More like something that can be as powerful as the universe but is in the shape of a grain of rice. Close but not the exact same thing...
Oh so you believe in something lesser than a god then?

(In the same god views, god IS the universe, and the maker of it and is inside everything as in a way everything is made from himself)

[Tempest]

if there is someone out there with a power that keeps the Universe in order then it cant be just a god

Why not? I don't quite understand the "it can't be JUST a god" part. JUST? I don't know about you but a mysterious all-mighty being doesn't seem like it deserves such a trite adverb.

[Hoplite]

we have religious beliefs because they are a code of life...every religion tells us to speak the truth, do good deeds, help others....basically "Live and let Live"....the religious codes are there to make the world a better place

[Reciprocation]

I go to Catholic Mass on Sundays because I feel like I can think clearly when I am there, and because I feel that it connects me to my family, alive and deceased.
I hesitate to refer to myself as Catholic, because I do not subscribe to all the doctrines of the Church. I feel Catholic because of my upbringing and because I find many of its ideals appealing.

[Ookamiotoko]

Why not? I don't quite understand the "it can't be JUST a god" part. JUST? I don't know about you but a mysterious all-mighty being doesn't seem like it deserves such a trite adverb.

Lets forget about all the other post and make my answer simple: I belive in the Universe and every universal being that helped create it, time basically.

[Maverick]

In today's world, religion is somewhat of an enigma to me. The Catholics, Baptists, Muslims, whatever. They are all yelling around saying that their religion is the best and all others will burn in hell. This is a risky topic, and I hope that I don't offend anyone, but I for one am tired of organized religion on the whole. There are a few religions, Buddhism, for example, that preach peace and actually practice it, but most others seem to contridict themselves from time to time, especially on the topic of peace. From the Christian crusades to the Muslim Jihad, most major religions have been involved in some sort of "Holy" war.

I believe in a higher power, but frankly I don't know which one, or ones. I believe in something more because I must. The power of intellect forces a creature to ponder the future and wonder about what comes next. I cannot abide the thought that after death there is nothing, no afterlife. Life would be particullarly cruel if there was nothing. I fear that I am rambling on, so I will wrap this up. For me, I believe that all religions are right and true. I believe that the particular religion a person follows is irrelevant. The only thing that truely matters is the belief itself.

____________________ _________

Now if any of that made any sense, I will consider it a success.

I need a drink.

[Destiny]

Lets forget about all the other post and make my answer simple: I belive in the Universe and every universal being that helped create it, time basically.
I'm seriously curious when you say this, does that mean you believe 'Time' created everything? Even man, which makes me come to the conclusion that you might believe in Evolution?

And if you do then why are we not still evolving?

[Maverick]

We are not evolving because we are the only species that does not follow the laws of nature. Those laws are that the creature best suited to an environment survives and all else dies. Natural selection. Humans do not submit to natural selection, instead we hide behind our glass and concrete behemoths and remain stagnant in a river of change.

[Destiny]

Yes, but if we 'evolved' from monkeys and they evolved from something else, why are monkeys and the animals they came from not still evovling?

[Maverick]

You got me on that one.

[Destiny]

LOL, I tend to do that sometimes.:D

But that has been a question around me this year, concerning the evolving thing.

I mean a scientist should have found that question long ago, and I really do want to know what a scientist would say about that. Is there even an answer yet?

[Fenrar]

You may think I'm either ignorant or retarded for saying this, but I don't believe in God. I believe in chance.

There was a 1 in 100,000,000,000,000, 000 or something chance that this world would be created. It happened.
I can get really dragged down and depressed while thinking about thinks like this, because, when it comes down to it, we're all tiny, insignificant parts in a massive scheme.

As I said before, in another thread, I don't care about who you believe in or what you believe in. Just don't try and convert me, and I'll be fine with you.

[daemon ulf]

I'm pretty sure they are evolving just it takes a couple thousand millenia to notice any difference just as humans are evolving as well (and no I'm sorry no proof for that because who in their right mind would try to run a two millenia long study) by the way I am playing devils advocate

[Destiny]

I still doubt it though, I mean evolution was supposed to have happened millions to billions of years ago, cave drawings, even though they were pretty good then suck today when compared to our art, but anyway cave drawings show animals as we know them now.

By now there should be proof shouldn't there?

[Maverick]

Don't worry, I'm not going to try to convert you, but I wonder what your belief is in the afterlife. That's what scares me the most, the possibility that there is nothing after death.

[daemon ulf]

well I have seen some Japanese snow monkeys live in Texas and they know a whole different language than the ones from their home country, they can tell that because, when they play the Texas ones call for snake to the Japanese ones they don't understand what it means. Also just because you can't see a difference doesn't mean there isn't one there it could be something as small as a change in dialect. you see?? (still playing the devils advocate)

[Destiny]

I believe in Heaven, or Hell.

It's just my belief though, many would disagree I'm sure. But I have my opinion and they have theirs. And I'm not easily converted.

[Fenrar]

Reincarnation is my belief in the Afterlife. That, even when the Universe ends, we'll all be reborn in the next one.

[Destiny]

Yes, but that could just be the environment?

Or maybe I'm a little confused over the topic...I don't know.

[Destiny]

Even though I don't believe in Reincarnation, I have liked the idea.

[daemon ulf]

Yes, but that could just be the environment?

Or maybe I'm a little confused over the topic...I don't know.

yeah it could be, also there are some pure-bred all white sheep that I heard about somewhere that gave birth to all black sheep which would be a genetic mutation/anomaly, the weird thing is they were all white for at least 300 generations...(Why oh Why must I be the devils advocate {Just Kidding}, I was baptized and I believe in re-incarnation)

[Destiny]

Okay, LOL. (about the devil's advocate thing) *Backs away very slowly*

[ThrasherCub]

Even though I don't believe in Reincarnation, I have liked the idea.
Why don't you believe in reincarnation?

[Destiny]

Well, one reason is that I wasn't brought up to believe in it. Plus I have no idea...I guess I just don't, I do like the idea, but I wouldn't believe in it. Do you believe in it?

[ThrasherCub]

Do you believe in it?
Yes, though I wasn't raised with it either. It made sense to me in that kind of random way things make sense to kids and as I grew older I learned more about the ideas for and against reincarnation, and the things for just made more sense.

[Destiny]

Oh okay.

So what do you believe as an afterlife...or is reincarnation the after life to you? Is there something in between the time you die and the time you're reincarnated?

[Fenrar]

Oh okay.

So what do you believe as an afterlife...or is reincarnation the after life to you? Is there something in between the time you die and the time you're reincarnated?


When I was a child, I believed you went down little tubes up in Heaven. One was for each animal, and you were just randomly assigned to each, and randomly assigned a Sex. Kinda like a lobby for Rebirth.

So I do believe Heaven exists. It's a waiting room.

[Destiny]

Strange thinking...Interesti ng though.

I more or less need to believe in Heaven because I want my sister to enjoy herself and be happier than when she was on earth.

[ThrasherCub]

Oh okay.

So what do you believe as an afterlife...or is reincarnation the after life to you? Is there something in between the time you die and the time you're reincarnated?

I believe there are multiple planes of existence you could reside in as an afterlife if you wish, though I doubt you can stay there forever just because of the nature of the soul.

Since you asked about afterlives in addition to reincarnation, it reminded me of something spoken in the Gnostic Mass;

Unto them from whose eyes the veil of life hath fallen may there be granted the accomplishment of their true Wills; whether they will absorption in the Infinite, or to be united with their chosen and preferred, or to be in contemplation, or to be at peace, or to achieve the labour and heroism of incarnation on this planet or another, or in any Star, or aught else, unto them may there be granted the accomplishment of their wills; yea, the accomplishment of their wills.

[Destiny]

Really interesting...So what are the main beliefs of reincarnation?

[Fenrar]

Really interesting...So what are the main beliefs of reincarnation?

Well, Buddhists believe that being a Human is a very rare occurence and you should make the most of it while you can.

Hindus believe that being a Human is just below a Tiger, but still very high up. They also believe that if you are bad, you go down, if you are good, you go up.

Those are the only two I've heard of.

[Destiny]

Well, Buddhists believe that being a Human is a very rare occurence and you should make the most of it while you can.

Hindus believe that being a Human is just below a Tiger, but still very high up. They also believe that if you are bad, you go down, if you are good, you go up.

Those are the only two I've heard of.
(Not being sarcastic) If it is rare then why is the Earth over populated?

[dirtyrat]

Every time I think about reincarnation, I try to figure out the best (= not a meal ticket for humans and other animals) animal to come back as. So each time the said thought occurs, I pass on that afterlife...

*looks up at Destiny's reply, Ha! Your very quick and funny...Why indeed are there SO many humans then?

[ThrasherCub]

Hindus believe that being a Human is just below a Tiger, but still very high up. They also believe that if you are bad, you go down, if you are good, you go up.

Where'd you get that? I studied the Hindu tradition for years and not encountered that one. In the order from highest to lowest I always heard was:

Gods
Demi-Gods
Humans
Animals
"Hungry Ghosts"
Demons

[Fenrar]

Think about it. If you added up all the Insects, the Trees, the Animals, the single-cell organisms, we'd be outnumbered about a million to one.

[Destiny]

That's what I was thinking when I was typing, but whatever, I'm to lazy to edit sometimes.

[Fenrar]

Where'd you get that? I studied the Hindu tradition for years and not encountered that one. In the order from highest to lowest I always heard was:

Gods
Demi-Gods
Humans
Animals
"Hungry Ghosts"
Demons

Heard it from a Hindu guy in my Regiment. I think it might be an old tradition, as Tigers USED to the top predators of India.

[ThrasherCub]

(Not being sarcastic) If it is rare then why is the Earth over populated?
Because more people are warranting human incarnations, but once here we stop advancing?

And like Fenrar said, there might be a lot of humans now compared to how many there used to be, but we by no means make up the majority of possible incarnations.

[Destiny]

True...though I don't believe in reincarnation, these are excellent points in the discussion at hand.

[MorganaFang]

Heard it from a Hindu guy in my Regiment. I think it might be an old tradition, as Tigers USED to the top predators of India.

I think that that's fair to say because after I studied Hinduism, I found that it was pretty hard to see it as one religion. There were several different philosophies that often didn't mesh well with the others.

The more common ranking though of reincarnation is humans are closer to god figures than animals. That was the philosophy that was some what adapted into Buddhism.

[Ookamiotoko]

I'm seriously curious when you say this, does that mean you believe 'Time' created everything? Even man, which makes me come to the conclusion that you might believe in Evolution?

And if you do then why are we not still evolving?

Well this is a bit late for me isn't it, well my answer to this is that yes I belive that time both created itself and the things that have lead up to this day.

Also, we are still evolving even if we dont see it.

-----Now's topic:

Well if that phylosophy was adapted into Buddhism then it would lead to lots of questions. Also (Even though I dont belive in god.) what is to stop a god from looking like a piece of paper, a rock or the finger in your hand? Sure most gods look like humans rather than animals but, why would we make the gods represent humans and not animals? Even more on the crazy side though possible...what is to stop common animals from having they're own gods?

[ThrasherCub]

Sure most gods look like humans rather than animals but, why would we make the gods represent humans and not animals?
That's easy - so we can identify with them.

[DarkWolf]

Sure most gods look like humans rather than animals but, why would we make the gods represent humans and not animals?Actually, in history there's almost as many (or more) that either look like animals or are them or represent them. Most notably in ancient Egyptian mythology most gods were drawn part or fully animal, most having an animal being sacred to them. My fave, as an ailurophile, was Bast or Bastet who was goddess of fertility, luck, and music. She was the "cat goddess", represented either possessing a cat head or just being surrounded by a lot of cats. For such reason, killing a cat was illegal and punishable by death. A cat's death was mourned by shaving off your eyebrows.

There's plenty more from Egypt, Greece, Hindu, and even older than these before such a theorum of "god" existed, animals were worshipped as great beings and thanked in dances and prayers for the food and clothing they provide (just as others worshipped the water or Sun). Since "god" can mean any icon of worship, those ancient tribes basically deified the animals themselves - all animals were gods.

Also, some myths of gods (before they were myths and were actual beliefs) were that gods had no particular form and chose whatever they wanted, seeming human only to show themselves to humans. In Ancient Greece it was believed that Gods were the first "humans" in appearance, and the titan Prometheus, who created mankind, made us in the image of the gods as a gift as mankind was a gift to the gods, toys of a kind.

So while yes many describe gods in a human visage, "most" don't state gods look like humans naturally, as most state gods choose to look like humans when interacting with us at their discretion, and "human-appearing" gods were not the first, as the first gods worshipped either had an animal or nature appearance or had no form at all.

EDIT:

I'll also point out that the big main god, the Christian/etc one, doesn't show as human, and is described as being formless for He is everything.

[Ookamiotoko]

Actually, in history there's almost as many (or more) that either look like animals or are them or represent them. Most notably in ancient Egyptian mythology most gods were drawn part or fully animal, most having an animal being sacred to them. My fave, as an ailurophile, was Bast or Bastet who was goddess of fertility, luck, and music. She was the "cat goddess", represented either possessing a cat head or just being surrounded by a lot of cats. For such reason, killing a cat was illegal and punishable by death. A cat's death was mourned by shaving off your eyebrows.
Good point, good statement...and cats...hee hee
There's plenty more from Egypt, Greece, Hindu, and even older than these before such a theorum of "god" existed, animals were worshipped as great beings and thanked in dances and prayers for the food and clothing they provide (just as others worshipped the water or Sun). Since "god" can mean any icon of worship, those ancient tribes basically deified the animals themselves - all animals were gods.
Ohh yeah...hee hee..I knew I forgot something in my history class...hee hee
Also, some myths of gods (before they were myths and were actual beliefs) were that gods had no particular form and chose whatever they wanted, seeming human only to show themselves to humans. In Ancient Greece it was believed that Gods were the first "humans" in appearance, and the titan Prometheus, who created mankind, made us in the image of the gods as a gift as mankind was a gift to the gods, toys of a kind.
I agree
So while yes many describe gods in a human visage, "most" don't state gods look like humans naturally, as most state gods choose to look like humans when interacting with us at their discretion, and "human-appearing" gods were not the first, as the first gods worshipped either had an animal or nature appearance or had no form at all.
Agreed as well

I'll also point out that the big main god, the Christian/etc one, doesn't show as human, and is described as being formless for He is everything.

This makes things clear.

[ThrasherCub]

My fave, as an ailurophile, was Bast or Bastet who was goddess of fertility, luck, and music. She was the "cat goddess", represented either possessing a cat head or just being surrounded by a lot of cats. For such reason, killing a cat was illegal and punishable by death. A cat's death was mourned by shaving off your eyebrows.
A few points of interest!
1 - Bast is also the goddess of pleasure :)

2 - Bast is sometimes also shown as being a full cat. Most Egyptian deities had a form which was full animal as well as one or more which were human to some degree.

3 - While Bast was the main reason for such powerful feelings on cats, there was another Goddess who was a cat (specifically a lioness) who would have been really really pissed if you killed a cat. She was made the ruler of killing and she was so delighted by this that she got a little overzealous and just went on a mad killing spree. A god (Ra, I believe) solved this by giving her a bunch of beer made to look like blood which she then drank and passed out from.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to make her mad.

4 - Shaving of hair was seen as a sacrifice. Slaves were always depicted as naked with spread legs so their pubic hair was visible, normal people just had hair like the rest of us (and no visible pubic hair since they tend to stay dressed), and the priests and Pharaoh had shaved heads - so it was also a way of showing where you stand in society. Impersonating a priest was pretty bad, hence the shaving of the eyebrows instead the head or something.

[DarkWolf]

Yes, I knew about pleasure. Gotta love the freespirited ancient ones. They celebrated Bast with a festival of love and music - basically, a mass orgy with music. :buttrock:

[Tempest]

I have a small statue of Bast on top of my DVD player :D I am partial to Bast and Sekhet. I've been meaning to look further into Egyptian mythology (and Thelema), but time and lack of motivation has made me put it off for a while. I should stop procrastinating so much...

[Gilenea]

I'm all about Artemis.

Gil

[Fenrar]

I believe you're referring to Sekhmet, Thrasher. My personal favourite is Menthu, an older, less well-known God of War. I think he was based on Ra.

[Ookamiotoko]

I guess I sort of like the Greek gods, Especially Hades, the lord of the Underworld.

[Rascaduanok]

I like PAZUZU:

http://www.sighcographics.c om/imgs/pazuzu_noborder.gif

Mesopotamian Storm Demon who blew ills winds of the desert. But also, bizarrely, protected pregnant women from evil female demons who would attack their unborn children.

[Ookamiotoko]

Creepy...AWSOME! So, what religion believes in him or her or whatever gender it is?

[Rascaduanok]

Ancient Babylonians and Assyrians. They didn’t worship him in the sense that they thought him good and loved/revered him, but they worshipped him by sacrificing to him to STOP him making himself felt in the world: they believed he commanded the scorching southwest wind that brought famine and disease.

But they also used his icons (such as talismans hung about the neck or placed in homes) to repel the evil female demon Lamashtu who would harm infants and pregnant women. Fighting some scary bitch with an even scarier bad–ass demon, lol.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/pazuzu.html

[Destiny]

Every time I think about reincarnation, I try to figure out the best (= not a meal ticket for humans and other animals) animal to come back as. So each time the said thought occurs, I pass on that afterlife...

*looks up at Destiny's reply, Ha! Your very quick and funny...Why indeed are there SO many humans then?


I'm sorry this is such a late reply to this comment, LOL. I haven't looked at this thread in a while.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to be eaten either..."Look I'm a duck!" Ten minutes pass. "OMG!! She's gonna eat me!":)


Subject at hand: I've always liked the myths of the Greek and Roman gods...the statues of them are also very beautiful.