What Is Shamanism?

[child_shade]

Really Simple Questiion. But Seriosly, If Any One Here Knows Anuything, Will You Put It In Words As Simple As The Question? It Might Clear A Few Things Up For Me.

[LV426]

Really Simple Questiion. But Seriosly, If Any One Here Knows Anuything, Will You Put It In Words As Simple As The Question? It Might Clear A Few Things Up For Me.


"Shamanic ecstasy is the real "Old Time Religion," of which modern churches are but pallid evocations. Shamanic, visionary ecstasy, the mysterium tremendum, the unio mystica, the eternally delightful experience of the universe as energy, is a sine qua non of religion, it is what religion is for! There is no need for faith, it is the ecstatic experience itself that gives one faith in the intrinsic unity and integrity of the universe, in ourselves as integral parts of the whole; that reveals to us the sublime majesty of our universe, and the fluctuant, scintillant, alchemical miracle that is quotidian consciousness. Any religion that requires faith and gives none, that defends against religious experiences, that promulgates the bizarre superstition that humankind is in some way separate, divorced from the rest of creation, that heals not the gaping wound between Body and Soul, but would tear them asunder... is no religion at all!" Johnathan Ott.


Shamanism is classified by anthropologists as an archaic magico-religious phenomenon in which the shaman is the great master of ecstasy. Shamanism itself, was defined by the late Mircea Eliade as a technique of ecstasy. A shaman may exhibit a particular magical specialty (such as control over fire, wind or magical flight). When a specialization is present the most common is as a healer. The distinguishing characteristic of shamanism is its focus on an ecstatic trance state in which the soul of the shaman is believed to leave the body and ascend to the sky (heavens) or descend into the earth (underworld). The shaman makes use of spirit helpers, with whom he or she communicates, all the while retaining control over his or her own consciousness. (Examples of possession occur, but are the exception, rather than the rule.) It is also important to note that while most shamans in traditional societies are men, either women or men may and have become shamans.
There are a number of relatively common practices and experiences in traditional shamanism which are being investigated by modern researchers. While the older traditional practices are ignored by some researchers, others have begun to explore these older techniques. The emergence of the new field of the "anthropology of consciousness" and the establishment of Transpersonal Psychology as a "Fourth Force" in psychology have opened up the investigation of research into the nature and history of consciousness in ways not previously possible. Outside of academic circles a growing number of people have begun to make serious inquiries into ancient shamanic techniques for entering into altered states of consciousness.

Traditional shamans developed techniques for lucid dreaming and what is today called the out-of-the-body experience (oobe). These methods for exploring the inner landscape are being investigated by a wide range of people. Some are academics, some come from traditional societies and others are modern practitioners of non-traditional shamanism or neo-shamanism. Along with these techniques, the NDE or near-death-experience have played a significant role in shamanic practice and initiation for millenia. There is extensive document- ation of this in ethnographic studies of traditional shamanism. With this renewed interest in these older traditions these shamanic methods of working with dreams and being conscious and awake while dreaming are receiving increased attention.

The ability to consciously move beyond the physical body is the particular specialty of the traditional shaman. These journeys of Soul may take the shaman into the nether realms, higher levels of existence or to parallel physical worlds or other regions of this world. Shamanic Flight, is in most instances, an experience not of an inner imaginary landscape, but is reported to be the shamans flight beyond the limitations of the physical body.

The Call to shamanize is often directly related to a near death experience by the prospective shaman. Among the traditional examples are being struck by lightning, a fall from a height, a serious life-threatening illness or lucid dream experiences in which the candidate dies or has some organs consumed and replaced and is thus reborn. Survival of these initial inner and outer brushes with death provides the shaman with personal experiences which strengthen his or her ability to work effectively with others. Having experienced something, a shaman is more likely to understand what must be done to correct a condition or situation.

Here is a thread that describes a type of Shamanism.

http://www.werewolf.com/vb/showthread.php?t=145 2

[Totah Sam]

I always get a good chuckle from people who know little about a culture or people and attach their own ethnocentric view or label to describe specific spirituality or rituals. The word Shaman doesn't even come close to describe native american "holy people" or as you non-native folk like to say, "medicine men." The true description would be "one who brings harmony or balance." When someone is out of sync with the universe, it's up to the holy man or singer (from my culture) to bring back this balance.

[LV426]

I always get a good chuckle from people who know little about a culture or people and attach their own ethnocentric view or label to describe specific spirituality or rituals. The word Shaman doesn't even come close to describe native american "holy people" or as you anglos like to say, "medicine men." The true description would be "one who brings harmony or balance." When someone is out of sync with the universe, it's up to the holy man or singer (from my culture) to bring back this balance.


Before you go and make assumptions about a particular religion or practice perhaps you should read about it. Shamanism is not just confined to the Native American peoples. Just because you know one view does not mean that you are the end all of all knowledge. It is a wide spread practice of many different people in many different nations and is thought by Anthropologists to be the first form of religion ever practiced.

I didn't post all the rituals because they are as varied as the individual that practices them and in some cases the practitioner makes the rituals very personal to themselves.

The translation of the definition of the religious practice of shamanism is a widespread definition and I did not attach my ethnocentric view but a view compiled from many different anthropologists of different backgrounds and creeds.

[Totah Sam]

Before you go and make assumptions about a particular religion or practice perhaps you should read about it. Shamanism is not just confined to the Native American peoples. Just because you know one view does not mean that you are the end all of all knowledge. It is a wide spread practice of many different people in many different nations and is thought by Anthropologists to be the first form of religion ever practiced.

I didn't post all the rituals because they are as varied as the individual that practices them and in some cases the practitioner makes the rituals very personal to themselves.

The translation of the definition of the religious practice of shamanism is a widespread definition and I did not attach my ethnocentric view but a view compiled from many different anthropologists of different backgrounds and creeds.


I was referring to the subject matter, not the subject aka YOU
I wasn't assuming anything just commenting on the assumption that native american spirituality is lumped in with "shamanism" by people that know nothing about native spirituality or try to force their own ethnocentric view into the mix
I probably know a great deal more about shamanism that you're giving me credit for
Once again... this isn't about you but the subject matter. I don't have a problem separating the two.


:D

[Sass]

Am I mistaken or wasn't Shamanism a part of Aztec culture? I remember hearing something on it in like 5th grade, but that was eons ago.

[Totah Sam]

Am I mistaken or wasn't Shamanism a part of Aztec culture? I remember hearing something on it in like 5th grade, but that was eons ago.

no... aztec spirituality is far more complex than simple shamanism. it included astrology, a pantheon of gods, ritual sacrifice, prophecy, etc.

[Kishi-Garou]

Shamanism is a religion, not a spirituality.

Spirituality is based on introspection, and belief.

The aztecs had a religion.

The Navajo had a religion.

The (L)(N)Dakota had a religion.

Personally, who gives a flying fuck?

Spirituality is about looking inside, and inside yourself you cannot compare to any other belief system. Religion is something you do RELIGIOUSLY.

First off, you can claim heritage to any culture, be it Native American, or European, but I still think you're someone who takes their opinion to be important to other people. NO ONE CARES.

I come from a Dakota family. My mother, and all her relatives, come from the rez. My brother and sister were born there, and I wasn't. I was raised in the dirty south. On my father's side, I am at least a quarter cherokee, but who isn't? Its questionable on my mother's side, but I do know my family's history. I am the great great great grandchild of Andrew J. Myrick, who was a french trader in Minnesota, during the Great Sioux Uprising in 1864. He was married to Nancy Wapaha, and he also told the natives off, and during the uprising they razed his store and killed him, after stuffing him full of grass. (He had told the indians to go eat grass, was tired of not getting paid.) From then on, married in and out of the dakota, they were moved from MN to SD, to Crow Creek indian reservation. I am the one generation outside of the rez, so far.

But what does that mean? Nothing. I was raised a indian's son. Does that make me an indian? Just because i've gone through ceremony, and I know the basic of all native religion? Nope. Does it make me white? Nope.

It makes me an indian's son.

Who cares what you are, or where you come from? As long as you're not a jerk, or a know it all, I don't give a damn. Putting other people down, because you don't see it their way just doesn't cut it with Kishi.

Your views are only a perception, and seeing as there are other eyes, there are other perceptions.

Oh yeah, shamanism is the belief in working with spirits, and channeling them for healing purposes. Shamanism is the root of all religions, going farther back than even Wicca claims. It did not originate in NA, nor did it Originate anywhere else. It originated within mankind.

Nothing is ever simple. But of course, if you look, its not quite complex, either.

*with a vengeance* Kishi

[Totah Sam]

Shamanism is a religion, not a spirituality.

Spirituality is based on introspection, and belief.

The aztecs had a religion.

The Navajo had a religion.

The (L)(N)Dakota had a religion.

Personally, who gives a flying fuck?

There is no word in the navajo language for religion. It has no formal organization. It's a way of life... spirituality. Just as the Aztecs had their own form of spirituality. Being navajo, I'm pretty damn sure about this. Who gives a fuck? me for one.

Spirituality is about looking inside, and inside yourself you cannot compare to any other belief system. Religion is something you do RELIGIOUSLY.

First off, you can claim heritage to any culture, be it Native American, or European, but I still think you're someone who takes their opinion to be important to other people. NO ONE CARES.

what I CARE about is correcting misconceptions, especially when it pertains to my culture or my heritage. Calling native american spirituality "shamanism" is one of those misconceptions.



I come from a Dakota family. My mother, and all her relatives, come from the rez. My brother and sister were born there, and I wasn't. I was raised in the dirty south. On my father's side, I am at least a quarter cherokee, but who isn't? Its questionable on my mother's side, but I do know my family's history. I am the great great great grandchild of Andrew J. Myrick, who was a french trader in Minnesota, during the Great Sioux Uprising in 1864. He was married to Nancy Wapaha, and he also told the natives off, and during the uprising they razed his store and killed him, after stuffing him full of grass. (He had told the indians to go eat grass, was tired of not getting paid.) From then on, married in and out of the dakota, they were moved from MN to SD, to Crow Creek indian reservation. I am the one generation outside of the rez, so far.

I'm full blood navajo direct descendant of Narbona. So what. It's not about who is more "indian." It's about correcting misperceptions and wrong interpretations.

But what does that mean? Nothing. I was raised a indian's son. Does that make me an indian? Just because i've gone through ceremony, and I know the basic of all native religion? Nope. Does it make me white? Nope.

It makes me an indian's son.

Who cares what you are, or where you come from? As long as you're not a jerk, or a know it all, I don't give a damn. Putting other people down, because you don't see it their way just doesn't cut it with Kishi.

Being native american is all about who you are and where you come from. I'm surprised you don't know this. My identity is based on my clan affiliations and where I come from. There is no word in Navajo for relocation. To move away is to no longer exist. My umbilical cord is buried on this land. My cradle board hangs from a tree not far from my house. My offering places and places of prayer are integral to my survival and my traditions. You say that "putting people down" doesn't sit well with you. Where in this thread am I putting any one or thing down? Please point this out to me. On the other hand I do find your response confrontational and demeaning. Am I going to bitch about it? nope. I don't have to justify who and what I am to you. I'm not into pissing contests. But I will stand up and voice my opinion when I see incorrect information that pertains to me and my heritage.

Oh yeah, shamanism is the belief in working with spirits, and channeling them for healing purposes. Shamanism is the root of all religions, going farther back than even Wicca claims. It did not originate in NA, nor did it Originate anywhere else. It originated within mankind.

the root of shamanism isn't the issue.. it's the arrogance in which people ascribe their own beliefs or thought processes to something they have little understanding of, hence the use of the word "ethnocentric."

Maybe you should read my post again? You seem to have missed the point.

[LV426]

Kishi, thank you for your informative response, it is nice to have someone ese add their interpretation and knowledge to the topic.

My interpretation of Shamanism that I posted came out of an Anthropology book so it's not like I went and made up that post and in fact there is too much about Shamanism to post everything and have a complete answer.

I have other views of shamanism myself because in studying ancient peoples there are many different views on shamanism. Shamanism seems to be the "religion" of man before there was an organization of religion.

I hope you will have more to add Kishi, I look forward to any information you would care to share.

[Totah Sam]

once again (and I hope everyone is paying close attention) I'm not putting down anyone's knowledge of shamanism, I'm not saying shamanism is a bad thing. What I'M saying, MY ORIGINAL POINT before this got derailed IS....


native american spirituality cannot be categorized as SHAMANISM. It's a common misperception..

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?


THAT IS ALL.

[Ahroun]

Yes.
But i also believe some people have a personal meaning. i mean, they believe on Shamanism, in a particular way.
That does not make them right. But if it <feels good>...

Anyway, there is some Shaman Northern Way, too. But most don't know about that.

Ahroun

[Kishi-Garou]

No, it isn't classified as shamanism.

Shamanism is a practice, not a belief.

The wicasa wakan, or holy man, in my family (tribe) is a shaman. He channels the power of god, like a lightning rod (sometimes literally.) But that does not make our beliefs shamanism. But it is an integral part of it, it is the practice and action, is what it is.

Of course, Native americans cannot be bunched up into the great big group you have. They're not all Navajo. They're not all just like your tribe. They are all, and were all, unique cultures, unto themselves. They had their own beliefs, and ways of doing things.

I am just saying, though you may be full blooded and related to whoever, you don't know half of what you think you do. No one can.

And spirituality isn't religion. Your religion is what you're talking about. Spirituality, yet again, is about introspection. Looking within yourself, to better yourself, and question. You can't look into someone else, can you?

[Totah Sam]

No, it isn't classified as shamanism.

Shamanism is a practice, not a belief.

The wicasa wakan, or holy man, in my family (tribe) is a shaman. He channels the power of god, like a lightning rod (sometimes literally.) But that does not make our beliefs shamanism. But it is an integral part of it, it is the practice and action, is what it is.

Of course, Native americans cannot be bunched up into the great big group you have. They're not all Navajo. They're not all just like your tribe. They are all, and were all, unique cultures, unto themselves. They had their own beliefs, and ways of doing things.

I am just saying, though you may be full blooded and related to whoever, you don't know half of what you think you do. No one can.

And spirituality isn't religion. Your religion is what you're talking about. Spirituality, yet again, is about introspection. Looking within yourself, to better yourself, and question. You can't look into someone else, can you?

For one, my being navajo has nothing to do with what I know or don't know. My study of cultural anthropology and anthropology of religions might have something to do with it.. I don't know...ask my instructors. The fact the in my area there are dozens of tribes might not have anything to do with it either. Also, the fact that the largest gathering of native tribes in the western hemisphere is held not 2 hours from my home town in which I have not only participated in but judged since it's creation, couldn't possibly play a role in this. I don't think there's a tribe on this continent that I have not sat down with several of it's members and discussed their belief systems. My personal and professional interest is in native cultures and cultural awareness. I GIVE SEMINARS ON CULTURAL AWARENESS IN THIS AREA. I am a consultant to the county in race relations. I have assisted in several paranormal investigations involving native tribes with several bigfoot organizations and Ghost Studies DOT com. I network with colleges and universities across the nation. I have assisted local archaeologists, linguists, ethnologists in interpretation and understanding the complex navajo spirituality. Believe me... it's incredibly complex. Some things just can't be rendered in English and you have to settle for an approximation. If you want to verify some of my claims... Ask Kriss about my research that I do for her occasionally. Ask her how good I am.

It's not a good thing for a navajo to sing his own praises, that's not our way. But since my credentials and knowledge has been called into question, I felt it necessary to ante up. I want it understood and brought up that I have never questioned anyone's knowledge or expertise but seem to have drawn fire from several sources just because I want to correct some misperception. If this is personal, please keep it off the board. Thanks. :)

Kishi I find it interesting and slightly hypocritical that you claim I am being ethnocentric in my views when you are doing just that with your personal anecdotes and interpretation of shamanism. My concept of shamanism comes from study, personal research, and discussion with anthropologists, ethnologists, and practicioners of shamanism. I know that spirituality isn't religion.. navajo spirituality ISN'T a religion just as most native beliefs are not a "religion." It is their spirituality. Something that is as natural and unconscious as breathing. It's in everything we do, say, see, and hear. It is a part of our awareness. You should know this. Religion implies a formalized, organized institution. Native spirituality doesn't work that way. It's intensely personal. I'm going to say this one more time so we can all be on the same page here... What my original point was.. native spirituality cannot be categorized as SHAMANISM. It has certain aspects of shamanism just as most spiritual paths do. Since as LH pointed out..shamanism is the foundation of all religion. native spirituality is usually very complex and can only be truly undestood in it's cultural context. Hence the new age belief systems that piecemeal aspects of native belief together and leave out the most important parts. It's kind of like sucking the candy coating off medicine and spitting out the part that heals you. It may be bitter to the taste but it's what makes you feel better. If you're gonna talk the talk then you better walk the walk. *getting off soap box*

Anyway.. I am through with this topic. Instead of taking my word for it..folks do your own investigation and study. Don't depend on someone else for your knowledge or understanding of anything. Knowledge is the antidote to ignorance.

THIS HAS BEEN A PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT.

[Totah Sam]

kishi, if you'd like to take this to pm and discuss our kinship and cultural similarities, I'd be more than happy to. also I have a friend at work who is Oglala and is always happy to hear from another Lakota. :p He's a fish out of water here in navajo land. hehe. :D

[Nivek]

The simplest way that I found to define Shamanism is that it is an eclectic set of techniques and practices defined by the practitioner. The techniques and practices are collected from various theologies, religions, sciences and spiritualities. Culminating these various practices, techniques and ideas then putting them into active use on the physical, emotional and spiritual planes is the sort of thing a typical Shaman does. It is a personal spiritual practice and growth that is applied to helping others do the same. Shamanism is linked to all cultures and religions, but not apart of them for they are not Shamanism. Nothing is set.

[Kriss]

Kishi, I have known Sam for a long time, and believe me when I tell you that he knows exactly what he is talking about.

Damn Sam, I have never seen your credentials all, like, written down and stuff, you really are the man. :)

[Kishi-Garou]

Hm, I thought the picture implied that Sam was a woman.

=\

And as for your 'credentials'...


.................... .............

Why do you even bother posting on this forum, oh mighty one?

And I am Dakota, not Lakota. Different dialect.

I think you're too defensive of what you think you know. I've seen this in many a forum. Everyone can't be wrong, in any way. What I said, was that "And spirituality isn't religion. Your religion is what you're talking about. Spirituality, yet again, is about introspection. Looking within yourself, to better yourself, and question. You can't look into someone else, can you?"

"It is their spirituality. Something that is as natural and unconscious as breathing."

Is that something not done religiously?

Your perception of religion was hazed, as well. You see the formal church, while I see what someone does from day to day.

Your view is just that, your view. And saying that someone else is wrong doesn't fix it.


"I always get a good chuckle from people who know little about a culture or people and attach their own ethnocentric view or label to describe specific spirituality or rituals. The word Shaman doesn't even come close to describe native american "holy people" or as you non-native folk like to say, "medicine men." The true description would be "one who brings harmony or balance." When someone is out of sync with the universe, it's up to the holy man or singer (from my culture) to bring back this balance."

Then what do you supposedly know? And first off, how do you know, just by word of mouth? You have not lived in that culture, nor have you practiced their culture. You have not suffered with them, to understand their viewpoint, have you? Native spirituality does not exist as it did, the way you imagine it. Anthropologists study bones, and things that are gone away, with no reason to exist. You can talk to shamans all you want, but in your words right up there, they're no heyokas.

I find you to not be as credible as you say. No argument about it.

[Kriss]

Let's hear your credentials.

Oh, and you are completely wrong about Sam. I think it's funny that you talk all around the subject but actually manage to say nothing concrete.

It's really pathetic that you felt that you had to make a comment about Sam's looks to try and make yourself seem intelligent. Sam is secure in his masculinity, and as a female I can tell you that he is very attractive to the opposite sex. Can you say the same thing?

[Kishi-Garou]

And I don't mind anyone messaging me, ever. Only thing is, I just started a new job, and I don't get on the computer until after 6 p.m., and even so its more like 12 a.m. that night...

Hell, I don't care. PM me, AIM me, MSN me, or even AOL me.

I'm not gonna be shrewd about it.

[Kishi-Garou]

I didn't mean to insult Sam, seriously. Blurry picture, small space.

Its just the damn hair. Bothers me sometimes, and my brother's just used to it.

Now what do you mean I say nothing concrete? What can be considered concrete in spirituality, when each and every person's view is different? I can't explain how you see the world. I can only defend others by word, and explain my own.

My credentials? I don't need them. I don't feel the need to give any, either. What's the point in saying this and this, when all you have is your own opinion, really? There is no one way, there is no explanation of any way. Sam might be seeing singers, I might be hearing the drums. Its all your own perceptions. You may percieve me being an asshole with nothing to back him, and I may see you as someone just defending a friend for words sake. It doesn't really matter. If there is any real problem, then it can be dealt with. I'm just making someone put their money where their mouth is, and showing they know what they're saying, when its all just dusty old schoolbook spew.

You just can't explain some things with words, or even with feelings. It doesn't matter what language, or what culture. If something really means something, there is no definition. There is no definite term, either. Shamanism, spirituality, or religion. Its all bullshit. Same damn things, to describe the same act. How can I back up something I can't explain to others, because they can't see through my eyes, eh?

[Totah Sam]

Hm, I thought the picture implied that Sam was a woman.

=\

And as for your 'credentials'...


.................... .............

Why do you even bother posting on this forum, oh mighty one?

And I am Dakota, not Lakota. Different dialect.

I think you're too defensive of what you think you know. I've seen this in many a forum. Everyone can't be wrong, in any way. What I said, was that "And spirituality isn't religion. Your religion is what you're talking about. Spirituality, yet again, is about introspection. Looking within yourself, to better yourself, and question. You can't look into someone else, can you?"

"It is their spirituality. Something that is as natural and unconscious as breathing."

Is that something not done religiously?

Your perception of religion was hazed, as well. You see the formal church, while I see what someone does from day to day.

Your view is just that, your view. And saying that someone else is wrong doesn't fix it.


"I always get a good chuckle from people who know little about a culture or people and attach their own ethnocentric view or label to describe specific spirituality or rituals. The word Shaman doesn't even come close to describe native american "holy people" or as you non-native folk like to say, "medicine men." The true description would be "one who brings harmony or balance." When someone is out of sync with the universe, it's up to the holy man or singer (from my culture) to bring back this balance."

Then what do you supposedly know? And first off, how do you know, just by word of mouth? You have not lived in that culture, nor have you practiced their culture. You have not suffered with them, to understand their viewpoint, have you? Native spirituality does not exist as it did, the way you imagine it. Anthropologists study bones, and things that are gone away, with no reason to exist. You can talk to shamans all you want, but in your words right up there, they're no heyokas.

I find you to not be as credible as you say. No argument about it.

Kishi - the defensiveness is not mine. It's yours. The grudge you seem to have against me is totally misplaced. I'm not the enemy here. I'm not out to make you look bad or demean you in any way. I have tried my best not to allow this to degenerate into a flame war. This is not a pissing contest. I'm not trying to stake my claim as the alpha male on this board. I'm just trying to clear up a COMMON misperception similar to the one that has us labeled as "indians." Humorous on some ocassions, frustating on others. My use of the word "Lakota" is a catch all that most Siouxan tribes use similar to the what the apaches do. But if you found it offensive, I apologize. Also I have a cousin who married a Lakotah and I have Lakotah relatives and my fiancee is half Lakotah. I have participated in Lakotah ceremonies including sundances. (my cousin's husband runs sundances in Indiana along with other cousin who recently performed his own sundance.

I'm not going to let this get out of hand so I'm abandoning the thread. I put out a hand of friendship and it seems you weren't willing to accept it. That's your choice.

[Kirin Fenrir]

Relax guys...

And I'd just like to bring up that being of Native American decent doesn't make you right or count as a credential. I've got an awful lot of native American blood in me, and can honesty say I know very little about my ancestor's ways. Though, that's rather sad now that I think about it. Might be interesting to find out one day in the future.

In any event, I think this thread wasn't started over just native American "shamans," but the underlying ideas and principles of modern shamanism and totemic spirituality. That includes Celts, African tribal communities, Inuit and Pacific cultures.

[LV426]

Relax guys...

And I'd just like to bring up that being of Native American decent doesn't make you right or count as a credential. I've got an awful lot of native American blood in me, and can honesty say I know very little about my ancestor's ways. Though, that's rather sad now that I think about it. Might be interesting to find out one day in the future.

In any event, I think this thread wasn't started over just native American "shamans," but the underlying ideas and principles of modern shamanism and totemic spirituality. That includes Celts, African tribal communities, Inuit and Pacific cultures.


Thank you kirin, I answered the question the only way I could, sure it is text book definition but it's hard to explain the whole concept of shamanism in one post and even in person it can be difficult. It encompasses too many peoples, rituals, and beliefs to offer someone a complete definition. Indian doesn't refer to just Native Americans, there are "indians" in many different countries and they practice a brand of shamanism that is totally different from each tribe of the Native Americans. There are other peoples that practice a form of Shamanism, that's why I believe the concept of shamanism is so great, it is not bound by conventional rules and has been adapted in all different cultures.

When I was younger I spent 3 summers in the excavation of some of the Cahokia mounds in Illinois and during those summers I felt like I had stepped out of this time and into a different one. It was almost a different plane of existence and opened my eyes to a different aspect of the world around me. It was an exhilarating adventure. I suppse that was the first time I had ever come across a form of religion that wasn't all God based. It wasn't long after that that I turned my back on my Southern Baptist upbringing. My grandparents almost fainted when I told them and my egg donor had a fit. I can't say I turned to shamanism though, I guess revering someone or something over myself was too much for my ego. :D

[Totah Sam]

Relax guys...

And I'd just like to bring up that being of Native American decent doesn't make you right or count as a credential.


Jesus H. Christ dude... I listed my credentials so you couldn't use the excuse that I know everything cuz I'm an indian. I even had one of leading experts in paranormal investigation back me up on this. If you didn't know Kriss was the person responsible for finding paranormal sites for the show "FEAR" on MTV. She knows her shit. MTV knows she knows her shit and most people in the paranormal field know she knows her shit. But apparently being right is more important than being correct.

[Kirin Fenrir]

I didn't say you did, Sam. *smiles*

I was just trying to find the middle road for everyone.

[Kriss]

This has to be the most convoluted disagreement about nothing that I have ever fucking read. :rolleyes:

[LV426]

I don't really count being a self proclaimed expert of the paranormal as being a credential, at least one that has any modicum of relevence.

[Kriss]

Is that English?

[Ender]

modicum

'modicum' - [Moderate] a small amount; bit

^Ender's 2003 dictionary.^

[Quicksilver]

I know what modicum means. However, this entire sentence makes no sense;

"I don't really count being a self proclaimed expert of an the paranormal as being a credential, at least one that has any modicum of relevence."

Do I need to diagram it? What is she trying to say? Is this another thinly veiled attempt at insulting me? If so, she has failed miserably, I tend to not take insults seriously from people who are borderline illiterate.

Yes I had to get my 2 pence in...
The reason that she used the word modicum is to sound intelligent... most people with slim to nil actual academic, or street education tend to use words incorrectly...hoping that people won't know the actual meaning of the big words they use, so that they seem smarter... basically..its like a poker face..

[kat]

Yes I had to get my 2 pence in...
The reason that she used the word modicum is to sound intelligent... most people with slim to nil actual academic, or street education tend to use words incorrectly...hoping that people won't know the actual meaning of the big words they use, so that they seem smarter... basically..its like a poker face..Quicksilver, I fail to see why you feel obligated to suggest that someone else with a bigger vocabulary is using it to poof their egos. The words exist; why not use them? Would you prefer a language without colorful words? Dull, gray, and predictable? Fuck that. Bless the Thesauri.

And Kriss, LH made a typo by leaving that "an" in there, but I'm more than sure that she was inferring that being a self proclaimed expert at the paranormal is pointless. Not a thinly veiled attack at you, but rather an obvious one. No point in beating around the bush at this point.

"I hate you."
"Noooo waaaaay!"

[Kriss]

Wow, I am surprised to see Kat join in, shocking. :rolleyes:

Let's define "expert", shall we, because the first round of this on para obviously didn't sink in. Or maybe it did, but didn't fit your particular agenda.

Websters.com (http://www.websters.com)


ex·pert ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kspûrt)
n.
A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.

The highest grade that can be achieved in marksmanship.
A person who has achieved this grade.

adj. (kspûrt, k-spûrt)
Having, involving, or demonstrating great skill, dexterity, or knowledge as the result of experience or training. See Synonyms at proficient.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, from Old French, experienced, from Latin expertus, past participle of experr, to try. See per-3 in Indo-European Roots.]

By this definition I can honestly say that I am, indeed, an expert on the paranormal. That is why I get paid to speak at conferences, write books, consult for television networks and answer about 2 dozen emails a day from people with ghost questions.

So, what is your point? Are you saying that because you don't believe in the paranormal I am not qualified to be an expert in the subject? That is very narrow-minded. I don't believe in Catholicism, yet I consider the Pope to be an expert in the subject.

[LV426]

But all of your knowledge is based purely on hypothetical creatures, occurances, and a maybe. There is no degree of skill or knowledge, and in fact all of your so called knowledge could have been made up because you have no proof or evidence of your research and knowledge.

Catholicism is a real religion with defined parameters and doctrines so yes the Pope would be an expert on Catholicism, however since he has never met god or studied god, who may or may not exist I would not consider him to be an expert about god. I bet he agrees with me.

[Kirin Fenrir]

Well, I'm an "expert" on common sense, Kriss.

And I'd say you really like attention.

*smiles*

[Kriss]

Actually LH, if I actually gave a fuck about what you think, which I don't, I would take you out and show you the skills involved.

"But all of your knowledge is based purely on hypothetical creatures, occurances, and a maybe. There is no degree of skill or knowledge, and in fact all of your so called knowledge could have been made up because you have no proof or evidence of your research and knowledge."

Oh contrare, I do have evidence, and lots of it. Enough to make open-minded people and skeptics think twice. Enough for people to pay me for my expertise. What do people pay you for? Your expertise in twinkie-devouring? Oh, wait, I know, your expertise in second-hand trailer design? No, you're an expert on white trash, aren't you?

I know two things you certainly aren't an expert in..

[kat]

Wow, I am surprised to see Kat join in, shocking. :rolleyes: And it was incredibly surprising that you and your mini-clan of golosi decided to pop over to Werewolf. Even more surprising that you decided to jump into an argument between Sam and LH. I mean, wow!

By this definition I can honestly say that I am, indeed, an expert on the paranormal. That is why I get paid to speak at conferences, write books, consult for television networks and answer about 2 dozen emails a day from people with ghost questions.

So, what is your point? Are you saying that because you don't believe in the paranormal I am not qualified to be an expert in the subject? That is very narrow-minded. I don't believe in Catholicism, yet I consider the Pope to be an expert in the subject.So would you call Jerry Falwell an expert in religion because he get's paid and people go to hear him speak? Bush an expert at foreign policy? Frankly, I don't give much credence to a person who feels obligated to declare themselves an expert. If they really are at such a level, their knowledge and credentials should speak for themselves, rather than needing someone else to spread the word to poof your sad little ego.

We could always launch down the path of how there is really no way to be "qualified" in the paranormal. There is no system of checks. No monthly journal published and reviewed by logical peers. Nope, nothing of sort. "Woo, I take a lot of pictures, I spend a lot of time in old houses, and a network that targets mindless teenagers asked me to help research a television show." Notice I used "research" and "mindless teenagers" in the same sentence. That says a lot.


...Watch out, folks! Kriss has broken out her patented "I-don't-care-what-you-think" grammar school defense!

[Kriss]

Actually, there are monthly journals. There is a lot more to it than your little narrow spectrum of smart-ass analysis.

Let's see, what is Kat an expert at, being a college student? Oops, I guess not. :p

Fuck you Kat, we all know you showed up here after I came to defend Sam. You are here simply to be a bitch to me. How pathetic. At least I came to werewolf.com for a good reason. You came because you have no life. It's obvious to all of us that you are a troll, why don't you just waddle back to your cave?

Oh, and FYI, I didn't proclaim myself as an expert. Try reading the fucking thread next time. :rolleyes:

[Kirin Fenrir]

Actually LH, if I actually gave a fuck about what you think, which I don't, I would take you out and show you the skills involved.

"But all of your knowledge is based purely on hypothetical creatures, occurances, and a maybe. There is no degree of skill or knowledge, and in fact all of your so called knowledge could have been made up because you have no proof or evidence of your research and knowledge."

Oh contrare, I do have evidence, and lots of it. Enough to make open-minded people and skeptics think twice. Enough for people to pay me for my expertise. What do people pay you for? Your expertise in twinkie-devouring? Oh, wait, I know, your expertise in second-hand trailer design? No, you're an expert on white trash, aren't you?

I know two things you certainly aren't an expert in..



Kat already illustrated most of the points I wanted to make, so I'll address another issue: Your attacks on LycanthropicHowl as at best childish, and at worst one of the saddest displays I've ever seen a grown woman perform.

Your expertise in twinkie-devouring? Oh, wait, I know, your expertise in second-hand trailer design?

What are you, fifteen? I might as well run around screaming "Cat Fight!", considering how much this sounds like a scene from middle school. Please, grow up.

[kat]

At least I came to werewolf.com for a good reason. You came because you have no life.
LOL

[Morrigu]

sheesh. OK, let's apply some "common sense" here. The definition of expert has clearly been applied here.

I mean, damn - it all seems like a ploy to attack an individual because of a personal issue. If someone obviously researches a particular subject, does field work, is published or in the process of being published, and continues to promote studies in a field – how are they not in the very least extremely well versed or an expert?

Are you suggesting that there needs to be substantial evidence of a topic in order for a person to be an expert in it? How does a subject obtain substantial evidence anyway - if there are not serious, intelligent people researching and experiencing it? What do you call these people? Budding-experts? Experts in the making? What makes anyone here qualified to judge who is and who isn’t a professional or an expert, anyway? Really….???

Like the old saying goes: don’t cast your pearls before swine. Anyone smell bacon?

[LV426]

The people that choose to be experts of unproven subjects are those who have no knowledge of their own, and have placed themselves in a position where what they say can not be repudiated so that in effect they will not appear the fools that they are.

[kat]

Oh, and FYI, I didn't proclaim myself as an expert. Try reading the fucking thread next time. :rolleyes:Ah, you see, LH and I aren't specifically referring to the "expert claiming" in this topic alone, but rather the countless times you've done it else where.

[LV426]

Ah, you see, LH and I aren't specifically referring to the "expert claiming" in this topic alone, but rather the countless times you've done it else where.

"I am Kriss! Worship me!"
"Why again?"
"I TAKE PICTURES OF GHOSTS! WORSHIP ME!"
"Uh, right. Ghosts don't exist, you know."
"FOOL! YOU MUST OBVIOUSLY BE INFERIOR! *blah blah blah insert lame insult involving a McJob or trailer trash here*!"
Actually I was sort of referring to the paranormal investigation expert credential that sam used. Kriss just took that personally.

[kat]

Actually I was sort of referring to the paranormal investigation expert credential that sam used. Kriss just took that personally.
Oh, but Kriss never takes things personally...

[Kriss]

Actually, the comments LH made about me on para were way worse than my comments here.

I am tired of the snippy little comments. It's ok to attack me and my work, but I can't attack back? Fuck that. I can't exactly make comments about LH's profession, since I have no fucking clue what she does. She hasn't stuck her neck out, I have. That leaves me with her looks and her intelligence, so be it.

Kat can fuck off, I have less respect for her than I do LH. She is a fucking vulture, waiting for an opportunity. Fucking lame and pathetic.

[Kriss]

"Ah, you see, LH and I aren't specifically referring to the "expert claiming" in this topic alone, but rather the countless times you've done it else where."

Prove it.

[MyNameIsScott]

Kriss, just so you know I find your icon very entertaining, you look like a bad ass, your wrinkles are more intimidating than your middle finger.... hehehe

You know, I think I saw you on 'cops' once.. yeah? Thought it was you.

[Kriss]

Wow, another vulture. :) Wrinkles, I think not :p

[kat]

Wow, another vulture. :) Wrinkles, I think not :p
Uh, Kriss, you know, you fit into the vulture category rather well, also.

By the way, what have I ever done that would make you entirely disrespect me? Disagree with you? Tell you that I don't like you? Oooooh, nooo! I must entirely lack character!

[MyNameIsScott]

Now Whos Going To Give Me A High Five For That?

:d

[kat]

Now Whos Going To Give Me A High Five For That?
*hi5*

[chriz]

So when can we fill the thread with mud? You guys brought bikinis, right?

[LV426]

Actually, the comments LH made about me on para were way worse than my comments here.

I am tired of the snippy little comments. It's ok to attack me and my work, but I can't attack back? Fuck that. I can't exactly make comments about LH's profession, since I have no fucking clue what she does. She hasn't stuck her neck out, I have. That leaves me with her looks and her intelligence, so be it.

Kat can fuck off, I have less respect for her than I do LH. She is a fucking vulture, waiting for an opportunity. Fucking lame and pathetic.

I don't think my intelligence is insulted when someone actually makes a post like this. Pot calling the kettle black as I see it.

[Morrigu]

The people that choose to be experts of unproven subjects are those who have no knowledge of their own, and have placed themselves in a position where what they say can not be repudiated so that in effect they will not appear the fools that they are.



That is not true. An expert in this case would be someone that is willing to discuss experiences, analyze recorded sounds, video and photographs. Rummaging through all of that data, deciding what can be explained and then analyzing what can't be explained. Having the knowledge to understand the technologies involved that investigators use, apply sciences as part of the process of elimination. What is left that can’t be explained, is still researched, analyzed so on and so forth – until finally something is realized. That is all well an acceptable for the term expert.

What you are describing is a person with an ego. This type of person can be in any field that has not been fully explored. And even in fields that have.

Again, this seems more of a personal attack, which makes my point: Your judgment is blurred by your personal feelings, therefore in this case you are incapable of really determining who is and who isn’t an expert. It's more of an opinion, which like assholes everyone has one. :D

[Morrigu]

Kriss, just so you know I find your icon very entertaining, you look like a bad ass, your wrinkles are more intimidating than your middle finger.... hehehe

You know, I think I saw you on 'cops' once.. yeah? Thought it was you.


ahh come on Mal, I thought you had more class than that. I have met the chick in person - she does not have wrinkles.

I mean, at the very least, if you are going to insult someone - use facts. Otherwise, it sucks. lol. ;)

[Morrigu]

So when can we fill the thread with mud? You guys brought bikinis, right?


ah man, I was hoping for that cream stuff or at least oil.

[LV426]

That is not true. An expert in this case would be someone that is willing to discuss experiences, analyze recorded sounds, video and photographs. Rummaging through all of that data, deciding what can be explained and then analyzing what can't be explained. Having the knowledge to understand the technologies involved that investigators useWhat is left that can’t be explained, is sti, apply sciences as part of the process of elimination. ll researched, analyzed so on and so forth – until finally something is realized. That is all well an acceptable for the term expert.

What you are describing is a person with an ego. This type of person can be in any field that has not been fully explored. And even in fields that have.

Again, this seems more of a personal attack, which makes my point: Your judgment is blurred by your personal feelings, therefore in this case you are incapable of really determining who is and who isn’t an expert. It's more of an opinion, which like assholes everyone has one. :D


From what I have seen there have been only claims of scientific evidence from the self proclaimed "experts" of paranormal and yet they fail to produce any scientific background in their findings or theories.

[MyNameIsScott]

I brought my leopard print THONG! YEEEEEHAAWWWWW

[chriz]

ahh come on Mal, I thought you had more class than that. I have met the chick in person - she does not have wrinkles.

I have to agree with this one.

[MyNameIsScott]

Are you sure? well than the cops thing is true. right on the money.

And for the record I never thought anyone else would think I had class :) thanks.

[Ender]

I was on Reno 911 Mal, perhaps you're confusing my guest apperance as the naked-white-guy in the hat, who hid behind the giant spool?

I do school apperances! Tell your children!

[Kriss]

"By the way, what have I ever done that would make you entirely disrespect me? Disagree with you? Tell you that I don't like you? Oooooh, nooo! I must entirely lack character!"

I have no respect for you because you existed on para simply to start shit. You have no life to the point that you get pleasure out of insulting and ridiculing other people, thier work, thier experiences, and thier educational background. All the while hiding, you are a fucking coward. I have zero respect for cowards.

By the way, don't you have a class to flunk? Maybe a beer to drink??

[Morrigu]

From what I have seen there have been only claims of scientific evidence from the self proclaimed "experts" of paranormal and yet they fail to produce any scientific background in their findings or theories.


*sighs* Ok, for the last time - let me try this again. No one is claiming they have scientific evidence. Scientific background is applied to paranormal all the time - hence the process of elimination. Hence why what remains that is unexplained is still being researched.


Are you suggesting that only scientists are "qualified" to research the paranormal? If so that is just silly. They are an important part, sure. But one does not need to be a scientist to research the paranormal. Let's consider all the explorers and scientists before us that wrote the history and science books. What background did they apply? I can tell you: Research, theory, testing, process of elimination - all using knowledge, self-taught methods, experiments,, blah blah. They failed to produce at first, but they continued on. And they are experts, pioneers within their subjects. They were when they were knee high in it, more than any john doe was. Again, expert is defined here. It's the same.

Just because someone is unable to produce the proof just yet, does not mean they are not an expert in the research they are involved in.

Again, clearly you are misusing the term expert.

[LV426]

*sighs* Ok, for the last time - let me try this again. No one is claiming they have scientific evidence. Scientific background is applied to paranormal all the time - hence the process of elimination. Hence why what remains that is unexplained is still being researched.


Are you suggesting that only scientists are "qualified" to research the paranormal? If so that is just silly. They are an important part, sure. But one does not need to be a scientist to research the paranormal. Let's consider all the explorers and scientists before us that wrote the history and science books. What background did they apply? I can tell you: Research, theory, testing, process of elimination - all using knowledge, self-taught methods, experiments,, blah blah. They failed to produce at first, but they continued on. And they are experts, pioneers within their subjects. They were when they were knee high in it, more than any john doe was. Again, expert is defined here. It's the same.

Just because someone is unable to produce the proof just yet, does not mean they are not an expert in the research they are involved in.

Again, clearly you are misusing the term expert.

Again the knowledge and skills that the self proclaimed paranormal experts claim to have is as of yet purely fictional, and does not qualify as true knowledge and skills until the time that there is a presentation of actual facts to base the knowledge and skills on.

[MyNameIsScott]

kel, if you were my homework i'd do you on my desk

its all in good humor, no hidden internet love affairs here atleast not between me and kel :p

[Kriss]

"Again the knowledge and skills that the self proclaimed paranormal experts claim to have is as of yet purely fictional, and does not qualify as true knowledge and skills until the time that there is a presentation of actual facts to base the knowledge and skills on."



What makes you think this? Where are you getting your fucked up logic from?

__________________

[Morrigu]

Again the knowledge and skills that the self proclaimed paranormal experts claim to have is as of yet purely fictional, and does not qualify as true knowledge and skills until the time that there is a presentation of actual facts to base the knowledge and skills on.

ya. ok.

[Ender]

Quotes can be added by writing (QUOTE=person)test(/QUOTE)

Replace ( with [ and you're golden.

[Kriss]

Thanks. I guess I should pay attention to that stuff. :p

[Morrigu]

kel, if you were my homework i'd do you on my desk

its all in good humor, no hidden internet love affairs here atleast not between me and kel :p


mal you must die now. :D

[Ender]

http://www.werewolf.com/vb/misc.php?do=bbcode - You know you like it :D

[LV426]

"Again the knowledge and skills that the self proclaimed paranormal experts claim to have is as of yet purely fictional, and does not qualify as true knowledge and skills until the time that there is a presentation of actual facts to base the knowledge and skills on."



What makes you think this? Where are you getting your fucked up logic from?

__________________


I think my logic is self evident.

Proof in the form of objective non-biased evidence would support your arguement but you don't seem to have that available.

[Ender]

I need a drink, anyone (http://img.villagephotos.co m/p/2003-8/339072/shamanism_watchers.j pg)else? :D

[Morrigu]

I need a drink, anyone (http://img.villagephotos.co m/p/2003-8/339072/shamanism_watchers.j pg)else? :D


LMFAO!!!

[kat]

Oh sure, I stop checking the topic for 10 minutes, and I lose three pages of flaming. Dammit.
I have no respect for you because you existed on para simply to start shit. You have no life to the point that you get pleasure out of insulting and ridiculing other people, thier work, thier experiences, and thier educational background. All the while hiding, you are a fucking coward. I have zero respect for cowards. Actually, that was later why I was on Para. Originally, I had conversations. You can check my old posts. Hell, we've had this conversation before, and my reply was the same. I guess your memory must be dying out. So, people started leaving the board, and things changed. Dana left, and things became very mundane. "Wow, another stupid quiz posted in General Discussion." But I stuck around for social reasons. Good times. Still have a lot of friends from that.

I'm a coward? Huh? Because I left? I left because I saw that things weren't going to get any better, and that there was no point in sticking around. I didn't "slink" around starting problems. I totally cut myself off. I didn't have time to waste with it any longer.

Hell, I don't really have time to waste here at Werewolf, either. My schedule is about to blow up in my face, but it'll eventually iron out, which is the only reason I accepted Chriz's mod offer. Ask him yourself. If he hadn't asked, I wouldn't have come.

By the way, don't you have a class to flunk? Maybe a beer to drink?? Lol, because, yeah, I'm so well known for flunking out and drinking beer. Or, I could be known for stressing out about things, occassionally getting drunk off of vodka (I don't drink beer, and your suggestion that I do is an obvious depiction that you're pulling shit right from your ass... again

By the way, it's spelled *their.

[chriz]

Okay, who's that BMan person not playing along with the rest of us? :p

[Kishi-Garou]

............me?

Paranormal? ............... :rolleyes:

[scroggins]

Hehe, seems like this is all very therapeutic on some level. Think I'll stick to alcohol.

"...the cause and solution to all of life's problems"
-Homer J. Simpson

[Kishi-Garou]

Okay, how about the wrinkled ghost hag, and her friend actually write something of their own down, instead of actually saying they know stuff? I saw no one contend with my words.

[kat]

Hehe, seems like this is all very therapeutic on some level. Think I'll stick to alcohol.

"...the cause and solution to all of life's problems"
-Homer J. Simpson

SkittleBrau (http://crazyengineer.net/projects/skittle.php)

[scroggins]

SkittleBrau (http://crazyengineer.net/projects/skittle.php)


Hahaha, that made my day.

[Kriss]

Dana left? He was there?? :p

You are a coward because you like to take pot shots at those of us who are open about what we do, and who we are, and what we believe, and what we experience, yet you don't share anything about yourself. It's easy to fuck with those of us who have the balls to be in the public eye, isn't it? Grow some balls.

You cut yourself off from para when you realized that your constant snipping at my heels wasn't working. Dana is not going to side with you over me. Being friends with Chriz didn't get you much in the way of brownie points. Nice try though.

Poor Chriz, I don't know what to say about him offering you anything except maybe that one day he will wake up. :rolleyes:

And right, I should have known about the vodka thing, since you are such a fucking poseur. :rolleyes:

As for pulling things out of my ass, maybe I got the beverage wrong, but the fact remains that you aren't "little miss intellect" anymore, are you? Talk about poetic fucking justice. :)

[kat]

yet you don't share anything about yourself. It's easy to fuck with those of us who have the balls to be in the public eye, isn't it? Grow some balls. Lots of talk, and yet all of it is wrong, yet again. People know what I believe. I tell it to them, bluntly. I'm obviously a skeptic. I'm obviously an atheist. I "don't share anything about myself" and yet, when I finalized my atheism, people on the boards noticed it and asked me about it. You talk a lot of shit, Kriss, but you have yet to say anything about me with a cement background. Just lots of garbage that could be said about anyone/everyone that disagrees with you.You cut yourself off from para when you realized that your constant snipping at my heels wasn't working. I like how you think you know me well enough to tell me why I would do something. I already said that I saw that things weren't getting better, and I made it well known that I felt that you were the source of most of the problems, so I really don't see how you restating the obvious is to anyone's benefit. Everyone knew/knows how I feel. I didn't whore myself to Dana. Sure, I offered to pay for a Russian bride that could replace you, but I understand how that would have been weird for him. Poor Chriz, I don't know what to say about him offering you anything except maybe that one day he will wake up.Hah, that's actually ironic on many levels. And right, I should have known about the vodka thing, since you are such a fucking poseur. Uh, I don't get it. Woah, I'm a poseur because I drink the Russian drink of choice, the most efficient and cheap method of getting inebriated? Are you trying to allude to something personal that no one else knows about?the fact remains that you aren't "little miss intellect" anymore, are you? Talk about poetic fucking justice. :)What the fuck are you talking about?

[Morrigu]

Hey now Kin... lol... let's get this straight - I am by no means a paranormal expert or investigator. I just understand the term expert. :D

So if I am the friend you are referring to, the only thing correct is the friend part.

ahem. now that we have that cleared. I am going to bed. You peeps try and not sling too much mud.

[Kriss]

yawn, I think I have a sock drawer to sort..

[Kishi-Garou]

I'll take that as a "I don't know jack shit, i'm just pulling shit out of my ass" reply.

Thank you, you have just proven yourself to be a stupid bastard.

[Skull Cowboy]

http://www.magma.ca/~hra/intermission.jpg:wav ey:

[Kishi-Garou]

:beerchug:
:beerchug:
:beerchug:
:beerchug:

[kat]

yawn, I think I have a sock drawer to sort..Wow, nice cop out. I guess your baseless replies have finally lost their snuff.

And Brandon: Too funny! :notworthy

[LV426]

Well I am locking up for the night, regularly scheduled programming will resume tomorrow.