Why can't we just leave them alone.

[Krallis]

One thing I've never understood is people going to extremes or getting all riled up about other people's religions. Their beliefs do not affect you, let them believe what they believe whats so bad about that.

I amen't religious but I have no problem with people around me being religious I f that's what they wan't then fine. If you start crushing beliefs then you start to crush a person's freedom even more. We're already getting that with the extremes that political corectness is going to. We don't need to endlessly look for ways to stop people doing what they want.

-Rant End-

[Burg the Ice]

Do you know what really anoys me? When people continuously ask, "Are you a christian?", "Are you a christian?", "Are you a christian?", "Do you beleive in God?", "Do you beleive in God?", "Do you beleive in God?", and such. Why do they care, I say the're lucky I don't explode easily.

[Krallis]

Exactly they shouldn't. People should be concerned with their own religion not everyone else's.

[Sazabi]

Do you know what really anoys me? When people continuously ask, "Are you a christian?", "Are you a christian?", "Are you a christian?", "Do you beleive in God?", "Do you beleive in God?", "Do you beleive in God?", and such. Why do they care, I say the're lucky I don't explode easily.

Because people want to associate with like minded individuals and not someone that they consider to be a negative influence and/or going to hell? Its not rocket science here folks.

[Krallis]

True, although sometimes they do tend to pester. Certain Jehovas witness' for example can be quite assertive.

[Sazabi]

Solution to all your wah wah baby problems can be solved by one magical phrase when a jehovas witness comes calling. "Fuck off"

[Krallis]

Hmmm, too bad I'm not the one that answers the door. Im usually not in. Still that's not my problem. MY problem is why can't we just fucking leave each other alone.

[Tempest]

MY problem is why can't we just fucking leave each other alone.

Because everyone thinks they are right. They want to save people from going to hell and so they try to convert people who follow other religions. This doesn't go well with the other religions, who are trying to do the same thing. They all think they are right but none of them have proof, and so they are left to argue over who is more right than everyone else.
Or you could look at it as the religions are trying to grow and dislike competing religions.

[Sazabi]

I fail to see why this is causing you great stress. the only way a Jehovas Witness can bother you is if you're too much of a pansy to tell them to get the fuck off your lawn.

People can think whatever they want. Me, I don't like southern baptists. In fact, I fucking hate them. Thats what makes this country wonderful. They can try to save my soul and I can tell them to shove a tire iron up their ass.

[Krallis]

Thats not what im on about. Besides we hardly get them around here. I've said what im on about so stop going about bloody jehovas witness'.

[Sazabi]

Thats not what im on about. Besides we hardly get them around here. I've said what im on about so stop going about bloody jehovas witness'.

This is all super basic.

-People like to associate with like minded individuals. This trend has been noted in every society ever recorded.

-If i'm a scientologist, I want to associate with other scientologists, and not servants of Xenu who have thetans bringing down their spirits.

-If I'm a christian, I want to associate with other christians and not people going to hell and/or who live by moral values that I find to be sins against god

-thus, Christians have to ask "are you a christian" when they get to know someone to decide how far they're going to become involved in that persons life

-depending on level of tolerance, they'll A) disassociate B) cold shoulder C) tolerate or D) get more involved.

I dont see why it bothers you that people want to compare beliefs to see if you're considered someone they want to associate with.

[Krallis]

But why are some people actively against other religions is it fear of new ones starting up. Arent we entitled to our beliefs (or lack of them).

[Sazabi]

Because of stereotypes associated with those religions. and even though the tools of the world preach about not judging people, stereotypes are conceptually accurate in a number of ways.

I'm actively against any religion that tries to exert their worldviews in a way that limits my freedoms. No one cares about rival religions until they start trying to exert political power.

individual beliefs are not only tolerated, but constitutionally protected, so I dont see what the problem is. Some groups are super elitist, it's not just religion, its community groups as well. If they want to be elitist and live in their own little bubble, why care?

[Burg the Ice]

Basically every where in America, everything has something to do with Christianity, religious freedom my ass, it's in the anthoms, the songs, the movies, the t.v. shows, the cartoons, and so on. Plus the only religious songs I know of in America are for christians.

[Sazabi]

Basically every where in America, everything has something to do with Christianity, religious freedom my ass

Explain to me how this limits your personal freedom. Do the Christian gestapo units kick down your door and riddle your room with gunfire when they find out you follow pagan Earthmother Werewolfism or whatever?

[Burg the Ice]

What's stopping them? Just kidding. But that would suck if they did.

[dirtyrat]

Last week I worked a few days out of an day labor place, and they sent me to this warehouse to work. And before we started work at this place each day the owner insisted we all hold hands while he prayed out loud (a long prayer too). I was like WOW - that was werid!

[Sazabi]

Yeah, that kind of shit is pretty awkward. I worked at an Indian resteraunt for a few months where they had literal shrines in the kitchen.

Kind of weird, but hey. Free market and all, it's their business, they can do whatever they want.

[UNODRAGONE]

Last week I worked a few days out of an day labor place, and they sent me to this warehouse to work. And before we started work at this place each day the owner insisted we all hold hands while he prayed out loud (a long prayer too). I was like WOW - that was werid!


Thats......different . Me I have no problem talking with people about religion basically cause I love to debate about it and get people fired up :D shameless bastard I know but hey, you have to be able to take it if your gonna dish it. The whole Jehovah's thing, yeah they don't come to my house any more after my last "discussion" with them :) I am a pro choice person, I believe people have the right to believe what they want and I could care less what people believe or why but if you come at me trying to persuade me into something I don't follow....prepare to throw down!!!

[Kaden]

I believe people have the right to worship whatever they want (even Scientology). Its in the constitution. I have friends who are Pagan, Catholic, Protestant, and Athiest. Online I have friends who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and all kinds of religions. I myself am Catholic but also follow some of Buddha's teachings (philosophically speaking).

[UNODRAGONE]

I believe people have the right to worship whatever they want (even Scientology). Its in the constitution. I have friends who are Pagan, Catholic, Protestant, and Athiest. Online I have friends who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and all kinds of religions. I myself am Catholic but also follow some of Buddha's teachings (philosophically speaking).

I am Catholic as well and have lots of friends from different religious back grounds, I don't look for people who have the same religious beliefs as me I look for people who are open minded and will ACCEPT me for who I am not necessarily what I believe. I have a friend of mine who is atheist and last Friday when we hung out he made sure to pick a place with a lot of variety for me (since I can't eat meat on Fridays until Easter :( ), it's about accepting and supporting, I don't push shit on him he is the same with me but we respect each other.

[Krallis]

I found out this little clip related to all this, I couldn't find the exact bit i wanted so I had to get the 2 URL links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIvnz73Zsws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RedJLaNx31s&feature=related

[Sabor_X]

Do you know what really anoys me? When people continuously ask, "Are you a christian?", "Are you a christian?", "Are you a christian?", "Do you beleive in God?", "Do you beleive in God?", "Do you beleive in God?", and such. Why do they care, I say the're lucky I don't explode easily.

What's worse, is when someone comes up to you and ask. I answer:

Me: I'm Lutheran...
Them: Oh I'm Christian!

........yeah sad isn't it

Me: I'm Lutheran
Than: Well what God do you believe in?

LUTHERAN IS A FORM OF CHRISTIANITY!! *twitch twitch*

sorry but people's ignorance gets on my nerves


Was that even on topic? Oh well :D

[Faolan]

It's funny really how some people get riled up about religion. I try my best to keep my head cool about it but one thing I always noticed is that some people I know who preaches about peace and understanding then turns around and foul mouths Islam.

I learned early on in my life everyone has the right to believe in what they want to believe as long as they don't harm anyone. You could be some whacked out hippie who thinks their toast oven is a God. Thats okay in my book, but you believe that your toaster oven should be given a sacrifice of babies every month then thats a completely different situation now isn't it?

[Krallis]

I do think though that ancient people had more "interesting" religions. Romans and Greeks for example, I've always been interested by mythology and ancient civilisations.

[Vendetta]

One thing I've never understood is people going to extremes or getting all riled up about other people's religions. Their beliefs do not affect you, let them believe what they believe whats so bad about that.
Are you REALLY that naive that you think that what other people believe has no effect on you?

[animmortalwound]

my problem isnt when they pester me, because i can just brush that off...

for me the problem is when they try to convert me. it annoys the crap outta me..

my point is that if they leave me alone then i will leave them alone...

[J.L.R.]

I think the greater question is why do so many people get so offended when somebody else questions their beliefs? Is it a terrible tragedy that somebody might not agree with your beliefs? Are your beliefs so shallow that the lightest opposition or questioning sends you ranting on BBS's across the board?

I've always welcomed opposition to my beliefs. As a real Christian you have to. The very fact is, not every believes the way I do, and then there are those who don't believe what I believe, and they don't even know why they believe that...

If somebody raises a question about my faith, it often sends me to the local library to hunt down various books and sources, and helps me better understand my faith and why I believe it. Education is key.

It always annoys me when I hear somebody ramble on about their religions "silly" rituals, and the fact they don't even know why they do them. In my opinion if you don't even understand your own religion, then there is a serious problem.

Hostile remarks or comebacks is often a sign of a lack of personal faith. This is why I think a Christian who protests funerals, Disney, or believes anything Pat Robinson says, might not really know what they believe. They are too quick to "prove" their Christianship, that they miss the boat completely.

Variation, Questions, and discussion brings about education.

When somebody brings questions about your faith, tell them why you believe the way you believe. If you can't give them a reason, then you might need to look inside yourself, because something is wrong with the picture.

This is why of course I believe $cientology is a crock. You disagree with them, and they sue you, scream at you, stalk you, or ban you from family members. This has all the halmarks of the 15th century Roman Catholic church, where the more ignorant you were of what was going on, the better of your chances of living were. If you raised questions, you were sentenced to death as either a witch, werewolf, or heretic. If a man or woman is afraid to take up a challenge, then this reveals only ignorance on their part.

If somebody is just being an ass, then the best way to resolve the issue is simply to walk away.

[Necro Mortis]

One thing I've never understood is people going to extremes or getting all riled up about other people's religions. Their beliefs do not affect you, let them believe what they believe whats so bad about that.

I amen't religious but I have no problem with people around me being religious I f that's what they wan't then fine. If you start crushing beliefs then you start to crush a person's freedom even more. We're already getting that with the extremes that political corectness is going to. We don't need to endlessly look for ways to stop people doing what they want.

-Rant End-

...

CRUSH THE INFIDELS!

PRAISE SCIENCE!
http://www.mikhaela.net/pictures/toons/brickbob.gif

[Bookwyrm]

DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to pick a fight, just make a point and ask a question. My perspective here is not theological but fully historical.

This is why of course I believe $cientology is a crock. You disagree with them, and they sue you, scream at you, stalk you, or ban you from family members. This has all the halmarks of the 15th century Roman Catholic church, where the more ignorant you were of what was going on, the better of your chances of living were. If you raised questions, you were sentenced to death as either a witch, werewolf, or heretic. If a man or woman is afraid to take up a challenge, then this reveals only ignorance on their part.

I read this aloud to some friends in the room. Their comments are as follows:

Jarred: "Werewolves?"

Julia: "Yes, because werewolves had a problem keeping their mouths shut about their differences of opinion."

Meredith: "That's the first I ever heard of the Catholic Church persecuting anyone for being a werewolf."

. . . and so on.

You know, religion aside . . . read a real history book, okay? Preferably several different ones so you can average out bias. You'll get a different picture of the Roman Catholic Church during the 15th century.

And I'm honestly curious, why did you pick the 15th, anyway? Usually people talk about the 16th (Protestant Revolt) or the 17th (Wars of Religion and Galileo's trial).

Regardless, I see nothing like what you described about $cientology reflected in any part of the Catholic Church, either in the official dictates of the religion (which is how a religion should be judged) or in the lives of the people. Which hallmarks were you referring to? :confused:

[RQ]

Because everyone thinks they are right. They want to save people from going to hell and so they try to convert people who follow other religions. This doesn't go well with the other religions, who are trying to do the same thing. They all think they are right but none of them have proof, and so they are left to argue over who is more right than everyone else.
Or you could look at it as the religions are trying to grow and dislike competing religions.
QFT.

It's a combination of misguided kind-heartedness toward your immortal soul, and wanting to get to you first. (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/rock_bottom_loser_en tertaining#email_thi s)

[J.L.R.]

DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to pick a fight, just make a point and ask a question. My perspective here is not theological but fully historical.



I read this aloud to some friends in the room. Their comments are as follows:

Jarred: "Werewolves?"

Julia: "Yes, because werewolves had a problem keeping their mouths shut about their differences of opinion."

Meredith: "That's the first I ever heard of the Catholic Church persecuting anyone for being a werewolf."

. . . and so on.

You know, religion aside . . . read a real history book, okay? Preferably several different ones so you can average out bias. You'll get a different picture of the Roman Catholic Church during the 15th century.

And I'm honestly curious, why did you pick the 15th, anyway? Usually people talk about the 16th (Protestant Revolt) or the 17th (Wars of Religion and Galileo's trial).

Regardless, I see nothing like what you described about $cientology reflected in any part of the Catholic Church, either in the official dictates of the religion (which is how a religion should be judged) or in the lives of the people. Which hallmarks were you referring to? :confused:

Try Faux: Voice of the Martyrs... Historically speaking the old Roman Catholic Church was nothing more than a power weilding doom machine, that is until reformation started to change things. As for the date, I could have chosen the 14th centure, 16th, century as well. Countless people were murdered by priests for simply questioning them. If you didn't believe in the Eucarist, veneration of the Saints, going to Mass... It was a crazy time to live, and if you dared to question the power of the Pope, you were labeled a heretic. If you translated the Bible from Latin, you were labeled a heretic. If you were caught reading the Bible, you were considered a heretic. It wa a crazy time to live. Does this, in any way reflect Catholics today, absolutely not. The complete blame falls to crooked men, who had become exactly the people, Jesus stood against. Religious leaders so focused on the execution of the religion, that they were totally missing the point.

I, in no, wise compared Roman Catholic pratices to that of Scientology. What I stated was that Scientology has all the halmarks of a corrupt idealogy, of which had once been the Roman Catholic Church... This of course did not mean that every single Catholic priest back then was hell bent on keeping power, if you read Voice of the Martyrs, you will find many kindly priests, and practicioners who met the same terrible fate, by trying to do the right thing.

[Fenrar]

I'm gonna end this now with the simple observation that everyone wants to be right.

Whether it be right by having a debate or winning, or losing a debate and killing the guy who won. It's been like that since the Stone Age and that'll carry on until everyone thinks the same.

[Bookwyrm]

Try Faux: Voice of the Martyrs... Historically speaking the old Roman Catholic Church was nothing more than a power weilding doom machine, that is until reformation started to change things. As for the date, I could have chosen the 14th centure, 16th, century as well. Countless people were murdered by priests for simply questioning them. If you didn't believe in the Eucarist, veneration of the Saints, going to Mass... It was a crazy time to live, and if you dared to question the power of the Pope, you were labeled a heretic. If you translated the Bible from Latin, you were labeled a heretic. If you were caught reading the Bible, you were considered a heretic. It wa a crazy time to live. Does this, in any way reflect Catholics today, absolutely not. The complete blame falls to crooked men, who had become exactly the people, Jesus stood against. Religious leaders so focused on the execution of the religion, that they were totally missing the point.

I, in no, wise compared Roman Catholic pratices to that of Scientology. What I stated was that Scientology has all the halmarks of a corrupt idealogy, of which had once been the Roman Catholic Church... This of course did not mean that every single Catholic priest back then was hell bent on keeping power, if you read Voice of the Martyrs, you will find many kindly priests, and practicioners who met the same terrible fate, by trying to do the right thing.

I'm afraid I spent about fifteen minutes searching for a "Faux: Voice of the Martyrs" and was unable to find anything for that. I did find a "Foxe: Voices of the Martyrs," but from the reviews that didn't sound quite like what you were talking about. If I'm wrong please tell me, I'm interested to see it -- because it sounds horribly wrong.

To be honest, if I didn't know better, I'd think you were simply quoting Jack Chick tracts. It was never illegal to translate the Bible, for one. In fact, the Latin Vulgate was called that because it was a translation of the original Greek New Testament. "Vulgate" means "common;" it's where we get our word "vulgar." The Latin translation was made by St. Jerome (and company) to get the Bible out to all the people of the Roman Empire, and to all people who spoke Latin. In later centuries, it was translated again and again into other languages.

There were frequently problems with translation, of course; anyone who learns a foreign language understands the problem of getting difficult and exact concepts across. Because of that, there would be people reviewing texts (not just the Bible) to guarantee that it was without error; this is called the nihil obstat, if I remember correctly. It could (and still can) be issued by any bishop, not just Rome.

And it was never illegal to read the Bible. Where the heck did you get that? Again, this sounds like Jack Chick.

If you didn't believe in the Eucarist, but still claimed to be a Christian, then you were a heretic. (Please note the distinction. You can't be a heretic if you don't claim to be part of the same religion.) This was and is the same with other doctrines of the Church. However, just as today, that doesn't mean you can be executed by the Church. Actually, the Church does not (and never has had) the power of execution. That is reserved solely for the secular government. (Reference the Catholic Catechism and the writings of such persons as St. Thomas Aquinas.)

I would suggest Dr. Carroll's series on the History of Christendom for a Catholic perspective with extensive footnotes and references to mainstream secular histories. He's a highly respected scholar with extensive international credentials; I've had dinner with him several times, and know him to be a clear thinker, though we've had a few differences of opinion. I have a few other titles I can give you, though I can't remember the names off the top of my head. If you would like, I can go look them up later and get them to you.

I've come across a lot of these stories in my life, and the one thing I find in common with them is that the Catholic Church is always the Big Bad Medieval Boogeyman. If the stories actually managed to agree with each other, I might give them more credence. However, looking into both primary and secondary sources, all I can find is something pretty much the exact opposite. For some reason, many people simply want to believe the worst about the Church. It puzzles me . . . but I welcome reasonable discussion on it.

[Galliard]

I used to have a foster mom who is pentecostal (I've aged out of the system). I don't know much about it, except that it seems to be a subset of Southern Baptist. Now, I love the woman like a mother, and she knows that I am pagan. She and I have conversations time and time again about how could I be a good person AND a pagan. It confuses her, because she's always heard that people who practice other religions besides Christianity are cruel and vicious and wrong. She doesn't understand what I see in Wicca (which is just the title I use because celtic shamanism is a little over her head), and she has, on more than one occasion, asked me what the devil has done for me to be so ardently involved in a religion that she doesn't view to be the "true" religion. It can be difficult to explain that my religion isn't of the devil, and that I don't even believe there IS a devil, and it can be so difficult to communicate respectfully.

I can understand that it's out of the goodness of her heart that she's trying to "save" me, and for the most part, I try, out of respect, to not bring up the question of religion around her. I know that she loves me. I just dislike it that she couldn't be a little more open minded.

Partly, it's undoing the brainwashing. I try to prove that what I believe isn't evil, but it's hard when someone has thought all their lives that I couldn't be anything but evil because I'm pagan. Then, they meet me, and I tell them what I believe in my heart, and it confuses them. She just wishes that I would make it clean cut for her, and be Christian. But it's not that clean cut, because I am a decent person and I am of a different religion.

Now, I guess for the summary of all that.

She can't bring herself to NOT try to convert me because she cares about me, and is told BY HER PASTOR that she has to try to convert me if she loves me. She basically feels compelled to do so. I have to be patient with her, and explain to her that no amount of cajoling or conversionary (sp?) tactics are going to help, because I believe what I believe.

[J.L.R.]

I'm afraid I spent about fifteen minutes searching for a "Faux: Voice of the Martyrs" and was unable to find anything for that. I did find a "Foxe: Voices of the Martyrs," but from the reviews that didn't sound quite like what you were talking about. If I'm wrong please tell me, I'm interested to see it -- because it sounds horribly wrong.

To be honest, if I didn't know better, I'd think you were simply quoting Jack Chick tracts. It was never illegal to translate the Bible, for one. In fact, the Latin Vulgate was called that because it was a translation of the original Greek New Testament. "Vulgate" means "common;" it's where we get our word "vulgar." The Latin translation was made by St. Jerome (and company) to get the Bible out to all the people of the Roman Empire, and to all people who spoke Latin. In later centuries, it was translated again and again into other languages.

There were frequently problems with translation, of course; anyone who learns a foreign language understands the problem of getting difficult and exact concepts across. Because of that, there would be people reviewing texts (not just the Bible) to guarantee that it was without error; this is called the nihil obstat, if I remember correctly. It could (and still can) be issued by any bishop, not just Rome.

And it was never illegal to read the Bible. Where the heck did you get that? Again, this sounds like Jack Chick.

If you didn't believe in the Eucarist, but still claimed to be a Christian, then you were a heretic. (Please note the distinction. You can't be a heretic if you don't claim to be part of the same religion.) This was and is the same with other doctrines of the Church. However, just as today, that doesn't mean you can be executed by the Church. Actually, the Church does not (and never has had) the power of execution. That is reserved solely for the secular government. (Reference the Catholic Catechism and the writings of such persons as St. Thomas Aquinas.)

I would suggest Dr. Carroll's series on the History of Christendom for a Catholic perspective with extensive footnotes and references to mainstream secular histories. He's a highly respected scholar with extensive international credentials; I've had dinner with him several times, and know him to be a clear thinker, though we've had a few differences of opinion. I have a few other titles I can give you, though I can't remember the names off the top of my head. If you would like, I can go look them up later and get them to you.

I've come across a lot of these stories in my life, and the one thing I find in common with them is that the Catholic Church is always the Big Bad Medieval Boogeyman. If the stories actually managed to agree with each other, I might give them more credence. However, looking into both primary and secondary sources, all I can find is something pretty much the exact opposite. For some reason, many people simply want to believe the worst about the Church. It puzzles me . . . but I welcome reasonable discussion on it.

It is Foxe: Book of the Martyrs... sorry, and my bad... I had mispelled the name for some odd reason, of which is incredibly bad, as I have the book right here...

Foxe is an abridged history of martyrs for Christ. It starts with the Apostiles and ends with the present. It is an unbiased source, as it gives both protestant and Catholic sides. In short this isn't the Baptist Book of Bad People, but simply a written record.

I don't read Chick's material actually... I think the guy is nothing more than a warmonger... Plus his art style stinks. :P

I also draw my sources from both secular as well as traditional material. You are correct in the fact that the Church has never had the power to execute, but it did have heavy influence on rulers who did have that power.

I am an avid reader, and I will read just about any subject, from the life of Shakespear to Islam. I love the History Channel, Science Channel, as well as Animal Planet. I've also read the enter Bible from cover to cover several times, as well as own a Catholic Bible, of which isn't that different that the Protestant one.

I find it rather strange though that you fail to find any evidence of wrong doing?

I will be heading back to our local library, but not until after next week, as I will be traveling to NYC.

Just one tiny edit here...

If the Roman Catholic Church is guiltless... Please tell me what is this about?

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/03/07/vatican.pardon.02/

[Bookwyrm]

It is Foxe: Book of the Martyrs... sorry, and my bad... I had mispelled the name for some odd reason, of which is incredibly bad, as I have the book right here...

Foxe is an abridged history of martyrs for Christ. It starts with the Apostiles and ends with the present. It is an unbiased source, as it gives both protestant and Catholic sides. In short this isn't the Baptist Book of Bad People, but simply a written record.

I don't read Chick's material actually... I think the guy is nothing more than a warmonger... Plus his art style stinks. :P

I also draw my sources from both secular as well as traditional material. You are correct in the fact that the Church has never had the power to execute, but it did have heavy influence on rulers who did have that power.

I am an avid reader, and I will read just about any subject, from the life of Shakespear to Islam. I love the History Channel, Science Channel, as well as Animal Planet. I've also read the enter Bible from cover to cover several times, as well as own a Catholic Bible, of which isn't that different that the Protestant one.

I find it rather strange though that you fail to find any evidence of wrong doing?

I will be heading back to our local library, but not until after next week, as I will be traveling to NYC.


Okay, that volume is in my library, and I'll try to take a look at it. However, it doesn't go up to the present. The Voices of the Martyrs volume adds on to it; the earlier volume only covered up to the English Revolt/Reformation.

The difference between the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible (though I actually dislike using those terms because it makes it sound like a greater difference than it is) is mainly that the Catholics include more books as part of the category of "inspired literature" (i.e., that which God inspired human authors to write down, comprising all of the revealed truths necessary to understand, believe, be saved, etc.; all revelation ended with the death of the last living apostle). Protestants make it sound like Catholics added these books; however, in reality, the Jews redefined their criteria for what is inspired literature after Christians gained a foothold. This removed some books which Christians were using to promote their theology. Luther and others claimed that these books weren't part of inspired literature, and so any Catholic doctrine based on these books is supposed to be suspect. (Which leads to a few circular-logic headaches, but I'm not going to get into that . . . I'm sure it would bore 99% of the members of this forum.) There are also some changes to the New Testament (but see my previous parenthetical statement).

The King James Version, and other Bibles based on that, have a few problems due to actual wording being changed. I haven't made a study of any depth on that, but I have friends who have. These Bibles were changed to make them sound nice or reflect current-day theological-social problems (such as the difficulties with the Puritans). This is why footnoted Bibles are useful, especially those with original language references. Of course, the KJV's a lot easier to read.

Finally, I didn't say that I never found evidence of wrongdoing. What I was talking about were official practices, theology, doctrine, teaching, etc., as well as the activity of Catholics as a whole throughout history. There will always be those who decide to take advantage of positions of power, or those who make such a nuisance of themselves that they have to be dealt with. That would result in a number of executions, but not as popularly portrayed. Even the Spanish Inquisition was never as bad as people think -- though it frequently did get out of control and by the 17th century was primarily focused on political action. (This is the problem of mixing secular and religious authority. Enemies of the state become enemies of God, and vice versa.)

Another problem a lot of people have with religion in general, and especially a nuanced institution such as the Catholic Church, is that it can be difficult to understand what is proclaimed as the Word of God versus the word of men serving God. A very prominent Catholic theologian, Dr. William Marshner, once said in a lecture: "Theology is nothing more than the opinion of theologians." He was making a distinction between theology and doctrine. It can often be a fine distinction, and gets very thin during the Middle Ages -- which did result in a lot of mistakes, a few of them deadly.

But none of these problems were due to "the Church." Humans make mistakes, and it's important to draw a distinction between what humans do, and what humans try to live up to. It's the same sort of thing today in the United States; just because some members of the government are corrupt doesn't mean the system is necessarily flawed. Sometimes it really is user error. ;)

[Bookwyrm]

She can't bring herself to NOT try to convert me because she cares about me, and is told BY HER PASTOR that she has to try to convert me if she loves me. She basically feels compelled to do so. I have to be patient with her, and explain to her that no amount of cajoling or conversionary (sp?) tactics are going to help, because I believe what I believe.

Pentecostals are just plain strange. I get this creepy feeling from them akin to what I get off of $cientologists.

However, what you described is a general Christian thing, especially with Protestants. All Christians (especially in the United States) tend to get the feeling that God works on a point system or something. However, the actual teaching out of the Bible (Gospel of Mathew and First Corinthians . . . verse numbers don't really matter for this, plus I'm lazy) is that you shouldn't waste time on lost causes. If you'd like I can get you the quotes to point her to and maybe she'll stop wasting time.

Personally, I like the St. Francis style of preaching the best. "Preach the Gospel at all times . . . when necessary, use words." Most Christians like to shove a complicated book of ancient writings in your face (or so it seems to me) rather than actually walking their talking. Personally, I can find memorizing the whole Bible impressive, but I find it even more impressive if they understand it and apply it to their own lives before trying to work on someone else's.

[Bookwyrm]

Just one tiny edit here...

If the Roman Catholic Church is guiltless... Please tell me what is this about?

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/03/07/vatican.pardon.02/

I didn't notice this earlier, because I had begun typing my response before your edit (and was then called away before I finished, so posting it was delayed).

I believe the article itself answers your question. If I may quote (emphasis added):

The document acknowledges sins only by those acting in the name of the church. It does not acknowledge any sins by the church itself or those who have served as its popes; both are considered infallible.

[J.L.R.]

I didn't notice this earlier, because I had begun typing my response before your edit (and was then called away before I finished, so posting it was delayed).

I believe the article itself answers your question. If I may quote (emphasis added):

And it is never my intentions to toss out all Catholics whether past or present due to the corruption of a few, just as, I don't condemn all Muslims because of the actions of extremists. Wicked people are wicked people regardless... Often they use religion, or their misunderstanding of religion to achieve their gains. However, what can a person expect, when one believes that they have to work to get to Heaven? The cost of Eternal life is most desirable...

Then you have Kings or Queens who either despised the Church or the Protestant movements. Bloody Mary comes to mind, as she wanted to "bring" her nation back to "God."

As for the KJV... The largest difference between your version of the Bible and mine, is as you said the addition of a few books, such as the Maccebees 1&2... However other than that, aside from a bit of wording, the two are almost identical in content. The KJV isn't greatest version of the Bible out there, due to the constraints of early English, but it still does the job, especially since you can compare it with, such version as the French, Spanish, German, all of which are based on source text, as opposed to the KJV.

Then I have this question for you...

Having read the Bible from cover to cover several times, I find some issues between Catholic religious practice and actual Biblical basis...

Praying to the Virgin Mary... The Bible, never once, mentions ANYBODY praying to Mary period. In fact the Bible references Mary to have more than one child, of which for a woman at her age, she could have had many...

Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Was she really a virgin after Christ or was she not?

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

If Jesus is the only mediator, then how can Mary fit in to this?

I'm not being coy, and I hope I don't sound like it, but there seems to be a lot of difference between what is being practiced, and what was actually written.

I am going to get my Roman Catholic Bible out though, and research these same scriptures to see if there is any difference. I did this once before, but it has been MANY years ago. I don't remember there being much difference, but I want to be sure...

[Bookwyrm]

You're assuming I'm Catholic, or even Christian. I find that interesting. ;) (I actually am, but it's still amusing.)

These questions really ought to be in a different thread, so if you would like further discussion I encourage you to start one. For now, I'll just say that I will get the exact points on the doctrine of Mary as mediatrix as well as praying to the saints; both are delicate subjects (as are most in theology) and I would like to make certain my memory is correct before putting myself on record.

The subject of Jesus' brothers and sisters, however, is easily addressed. First, in the language being spoken in that passage, there is no word for "cousin." Rather, they used the terminology for sibling. This is well-documented, and I can get you the references. Second, the reference to Jesus being the "first-born" does not (as it does in modern English) mean Mary gave birth to other children; again, this is is a well-documented linguistic aspect, and can be seen today on graves dating from the period for women who died giving birth to their first-born sons and daughters. Third, the passage that Joseph did not know her "until" Jesus was born also does not mean she had marital relations, as this is another linguistic aspect that can be seen in the Gospels, most easily in Jesus' statement that "I will be with you always, even until the end of the the earth"; in modern English, this is a contradiction, but in the language being spoken it was not.

There are other proofs of her virginity, but again, I want to make certain I have my facts straight. If you want to discuss this in-depth on a public forum, we ought to go to a different thread.

Edit:
And "Bloody" Mary is a complete topic in herself, with the amount of fiction disguised as history on her.

[UNODRAGONE]

I love this back and forth :) I also think it's insane there is another member besides J.L.R that knows so much about the bible! Good debates on both sides

[Kaden]

He's fun to debate with in real life too. :D

[Faolan]

You know, I hear allot of people who say they get pestered by Evangelicals, Jehovah Witnesses, etc...

However this is one thing that bugs me. There are people out there that is so happy that they are atheist that they are willing to tell anyone who has faith why they are wrong and they literally stick it up the faithfuls noses. Now please don't read to deeply into what I'm saying, I'm not accusing anyone here of that but I see that allot more often online and in real life then the other way around.

It's as if they wave around a little Darwin flag (which by the way I think that man is a genius and I'm Catholic) and name call anyone with a faith. In my opinion a real atheist wouldn't care if you have a religion, because if there isn't a God/Gods/Whatever then there is nothing to be angry about when some faithful person gets up on your ass about you being faithless.

All I'm saying is why the double standard?

[MorganaFang]

I am not a particularly faithful person, very much devoid of religion but I can definitely agree with you Fao. I see no issue to force my beliefs on a christian whos views are in opposition to mine unless they confront me first about in a challenge. They are free to think what they think as much as I am.

[Vendetta]

You know, I hear allot of people who say they get pestered by Evangelicals, Jehovah Witnesses, etc...

However this is one thing that bugs me. There are people out there that is so happy that they are atheist that they are willing to tell anyone who has faith why they are wrong and they literally stick it up the faithfuls noses. Now please don't read to deeply into what I'm saying, I'm not accusing anyone here of that but I see that allot more often online and in real life then the other way around.

It's as if they wave around a little Darwin flag (which by the way I think that man is a genius and I'm Catholic) and name call anyone with a faith. In my opinion a real atheist wouldn't care if you have a religion, because if there isn't a God/Gods/Whatever then there is nothing to be angry about when some faithful person gets up on your ass about you being faithless.

All I'm saying is why the double standard?
First off, I'm not aware of any double-standard, because most atheists I know, don't like to espouse their views, for fear of being persecuted by the religious majority. Also, because most atheists are scared to pissing that you religious types are going to force their beliefs down everyone's throats, and regress us scientifically, decades (which they've already started to do - goodbye embryonic stem-cell research.)

Also, as far as I know, there are no atheist groups that go around, door-to-door handing out pamphlets for atheism. Or stand on soap-boxes on street corners, decrying how everyone must repent for their sins.

[RQ]

I'm an atheist, and I criticize religion because it's wrong to allow ignorant people to propagate superstition over science and reason.

You DO have the right to be wrong, but the minute you start forcing your beliefs on others - your kids; your community; me, when I have to watch religion played out in my politics and on my TV all the livelong day, it becomes a problem.

[Faolan]

First off, I'm not aware of any double-standard, because most atheists I know, don't like to espouse their views, for fear of being persecuted by the religious majority. Also, because most atheists are scared to pissing that you religious types are going to force their beliefs down everyone's throats, and regress us scientifically, decades (which they've already started to do - goodbye embryonic stem-cell research.)

Also, as far as I know, there are no atheist groups that go around, door-to-door handing out pamphlets for atheism. Or stand on soap-boxes on street corners, decrying how everyone must repent for their sins.

Well we are experiencing different things then. I'm talking about people that I run into either in real life or online. If I mention anything remotely about me being Catholic in light conversation especially online someone jumps on me and tells me that I'm stupid for having a faith. I have not had that happen here. Sure there has been disagreements but otherwise that hasn't happened yet.

Now as for the less rational and more fanatic of the faithful of what ever faith, yes I agree with the rest of you that they are backward, wrong headed, arrogant assholes. That doesn't mean however I take it kindly when an Atheist tells me I'm wrong to believe in God.

[Maverick]

I once heard that organized religion was most commonly a tool to drive people apart. I find this statement extremely cynical, and mainly true. For this reason I do not take part in organized religion. While I am not an atheist, I do believe in something bigger than myself; be it God or simply human progress. I also find fault in people who decide to force their religious beliefs on others because they feel themselves superior in some way. Red_Queen, I do not have any problem with you being an atheist, if fact I commend your ability to decide one way or another on the subject, but I would censure you for "criticizing religion because it is wrong to allow ignorant people to propagate superstition over science and reason."

Red_Queen, you may want to take your own advice before posting something so blatantly ignorant in concept. At least show a bit of tolerance.

[Vendetta]

Red_Queen, you may want to take your own advice before posting something so blatantly ignorant in concept. At least show a bit of tolerance.
I'm trying hard to find anything blatantly, let alone vaguely ignorant in her post.

Also, where is it written that people have to have tolerant? Is it tolerant to say someone will burn in "hell" for not believing in the exact same thing as they do?

[RQ]

Red_Queen, I do not have any problem with you being an atheist, if fact I commend your ability to decide one way or another on the subject, but I would censure you for "criticizing religion because it is wrong to allow ignorant people to propagate superstition over science and reason."

Red_Queen, you may want to take your own advice before posting something so blatantly ignorant in concept. At least show a bit of tolerance.
I'm glad I have your approval there buddy. As for you censuring me, let me point out that it's wrong for ANYONE to propagate superstition and ignorance. It just so happens that the fanatically religious do it with this air of untouchability that society has given anything "religious."

I would posit that not only is religion touchable, but any mind which chooses to examine it closely and critically will see it for what it is.

[Vendetta]

Well we are experiencing different things then. I'm talking about people that I run into either in real life or online. If I mention anything remotely about me being Catholic in light conversation especially online someone jumps on me and tells me that I'm stupid for having a faith. I have not had that happen here. Sure there has been disagreements but otherwise that hasn't happened yet.
I'm sory you're experience is different, it doesn't make it true though, it just makes your experience limited.

That doesn't mean however I take it kindly when an Atheist tells me I'm wrong to believe in God.
Really? So what happened to turning the other cheek? Anyway, at least when you tell an atheist s/he's wrong s/he can reply "Oh really? Because all the evidence seems to be on my side." Whereas all most religious folk can do is point to a storybook.

[Maverick]

I was mainly speaking of the text that I quoted, the bit about it is wrong to allow ignorant people to propagate superstition above science and reason. What I am saying is if people wish to believe something, who is anyone to say that it is merely superstition?

Also, as I stated earlier, I do not agree with the major facets of most organized religions, including the common doctrine that all others will burn in hell. This is the part that drives people apart.

I found ignorant the fact that she spoke (however negatively) about a person's right to believe in religion and then basically said that all religious people are ignorant and religion should not be allowed.

Vendetta, there is nothing that says that people should be tolerant, but intolerance fuels many of the worldly conflicts today. Human kind would be wise to learn accept one another.

I stand by my opinion that Red_Queen's post was ignorant and insulting, but I will recognize the possibility that her words were more harshly written than intended. I will recant if this is true.

[Vendetta]

I was mainly speaking of the text that I quoted, the bit about it is wrong to allow ignorant people to propagate superstition above science and reason. What I am saying is if people wish to believe something, who is anyone to say that it is merely superstition?
Uhh generally science.

Vendetta, there is nothing that says that people should be tolerant, but intolerance fuels many of the worldly conflicts today. Human kind would be wise to learn accept one another.
Just out of curiousity, can you tell me the last time an atheist or atheist group started a war? Want to know the last time a religious one DID? Yeah, I don't think it's atheists who need to learn tolerance.

[RQ]

I was mainly speaking of the text that I quoted, the bit about it is wrong to allow ignorant people to propagate superstition above science and reason. What I am saying is if people wish to believe something, who is anyone to say that it is merely superstition?
It's superstition by the very definition of the word.

su·per·sti·tion/ˌsuhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngpərˈstɪʃht tp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngən/ –noun 1.a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like. 2.a system or collection of such beliefs. 3.a custom or act based on such a belief. 4.irrational fear of what is unknown or mysterious, esp. in connection with religion. 5.any blindly accepted belief or notion.

[Maverick]

I'm glad I have your approval there buddy. As for you censuring me, let me point out that it's wrong for ANYONE to propagate superstition and ignorance. It just so happens that the fanatically religious do it with this air of untouchability that society has given anything "religious."

I would posit that not only is religion touchable, but any mind which chooses to examine it closely and critically will see it for what it is.

Religion provides comfort and reason for many people, who are you to say that it is bullshit? One thing I hate about critics of religion is that they try to focus on the rouge religions and religious fanatics that give the rest of religion a bad name. My former church was more than just a haven for superstition and bullshit. I had many good friends that went there for answers, friend that found peace inside those walls. We did good work there, and if their is a God it was his work. We helped people who could not help themselves. Who are you to say that religion is a bad thing?

[RQ]

Religion provides comfort and reason for many people, who are you to say that it is bullshit? One thing I hate about critics of religion is that they try to focus on the rouge religions and religious fanatics that give the rest of religion a bad name. My former church was more than just a haven for superstition and bullshit. I had many good friends that went there for answers, friend that found peace inside those walls. We did good work there, and if their is a God it was his work. We helped people who could not help themselves. Who are you to say that religion is a bad thing?
Why couldn't you help those people outside a religious setting - or is it only worthwhile if god is watching and giving you brownie points?

Finding comfort in religion doesn't make it true, but if you prefer a happy, cushy insulation from the realities of the universe, that's your choice. I'm just saying I don't have to respect that choice, when it filters through to me.

[Maverick]

Why couldn't you help those people outside a religious setting - or is it only worthwhile if god is watching and giving you brownie points?

Finding comfort in religion doesn't make it true, but if you prefer a happy, cushy insulation from the realities of the universe, that's your choice. I'm just saying I don't have to respect that choice, when it filters through to me.

Who says I don't do that kind of work outside a religious setting? I volunteer with the local YMCA (yes, it is a religious organization, but there is little religion actually involved) and I have volunteered at the homeless shelter numerous times to name a few things.

I am not asking you to believe in religion or even respect it, my only plea is that you keep those opinion to yourself as you would like others to keep their religious opinions to themselves.

Vendetta, I am going to try to say this as kindly as possible, but I have already said many times that I don't approve of organized religion because it produces fanatics that cause wars and strife. No, there have been no atheists to cause wars that I know of, but because Atheism has no unifying organization, it is unlikely that they ever will.

[RQ]

because Atheism has no unifying organization, it is unlikely that they ever will.

Excuse me? (http://www.atheists.org/)

[Maverick]

It seems that I must apologize for my last statement, I did not know about American Atheists. I should have done more research on the subject before posting. Just so you know, I didn't set out to cause anger (even though it turned out that way) I just disapprove of religious critics using the actions of a few fanatics and rouge organization as the basis for their fight against all religion. I just believe that there are a few things that cannot be explained by science or reason.

[RQ]

I just believe that there are a few things that cannot be explained by science or reason.
I'd like to continue this discussion in a friendly manner. What kinds of things?

[Maverick]

I'd like to continue this discussion in a friendly manner. What kinds of things?

Yes, that would be good. Of course, now that you ask, my mind is going blank. I'm trying to remind myself that this is not a test, but it doesn't seem to be working.

Since this is a religious thread, I believe that I will start with that. Most civilizations have used religion to explain worldly events and nature. This is logical, human kind is burdened by the struggle to understand our surroundings, but why religion?

[J.L.R.]

Yes, that would be good. Of course, now that you ask, my mind is going blank. I'm trying to remind myself that this is not a test, but it doesn't seem to be working.

Since this is a religious thread, I believe that I will start with that. Most civilizations have used religion to explain worldly events and nature. This is logical, human kind is burdened by the struggle to understand our surroundings, but why religion?

Because we are a "religious" race. It is in our nature to seek answers to explain our existence. Evolutionarily speaking, all races, even those existing nearly 40,000 years ago acknowledged the existance of something beyond what they could clearly see and understand. The reality is, I don't think scientists, especially the more atheistic types, can even begin to wonder why such a desire would exist in the first place. All animals have intellegence, but is intel enough to push a lowly animal, such as man, to ask why?

Most skeptics discount the Bible as nothing more than ancient rubbish, but then again, they are just fooling themselves. A great book, that I somehow or another bring up here and there, is the "Science of God" by Gerald Shroeder, of whom is not a Christian, and is pro-Evolution, so in short, you don't have to worry about reading his book and finding a Chic track secretly hidden. His whole purpose is not to "convert" but to acknowledge that the Bible, as a text, should not be discounted as merely fiction, simply because one refuses to believe it is anything more than just that, but then again such ignorance isn't entirely unheard of among skeptics...

I agree Atheists don't write pamplets, they write text books. And please don't be fooled, there are many many atheists who use the public system to evangilize their ideals to young minds. I had a biology professor who loved to take my hard earned money and class time to preach how everyone that believed in Jesus was stupid. Then again, it wasn't like my core understanding of photosynthesis and the Kelvin scale would have been helped had he stuck with the material. :P I love science, but I sincerely sucked at Biology. :P

Berkley also comes to mind.

U.S.S.R. under the Atheist doctrin of Communism, murdered countless people. While it wasn't an outright war, it certainly was a war on religion.

Religion doesn't breed stupidity and ignorance, stupid people do. Even if you successfully erased all religions off the face of the map, there are plenty of Darwinites just waiting to achieve Darwin Award glory. Most wars are caused by the desire of power, of which leads back to human error and human ignorance.

A Muslim, an Atheist, a Mormon, and Tom Cruise could all stand in front of me and tell me I'm a moron for believing what I believe, but that wouldn't offend me in the least bit, as I know what I believe, and I am happy.

My belief in God hasn't squelched by desire of knowledge and science. The Bible never forebade people to look further. In fact a famed scientific quote, "Speak the earth, and she shall teach thee." comes from the book of Psalms. For me it enhances that desire. While I might not understand everything, ergo the finner points of photosynthesis, nor be able to literally quote every element on the periodic table, of which is still oddly taped to my wall, my yearning for knowledge has not dominished.

[Bookwyrm]

Just to throw this out there, I'll quote from the outline to Dr. Lawrence M. Principe's lecture series Science and Religion(available from The Teaching Company), Lecture One:

"Faith is a method (through belief or suspended disbelief) of arriving at some knowledge claim."

God exists = Faith statement.
Goe does not exist = Faith statement.

[RQ]

Because we are a "religious" race. It is in our nature to seek answers to explain our existence. Evolutionarily speaking, all races, even those existing nearly 40,000 years ago acknowledged the existance of something beyond what they could clearly see and understand. The reality is, I don't think scientists, especially the more atheistic types, can even begin to wonder why such a desire would exist in the first place. All animals have intellegence, but is intel enough to push a lowly animal, such as man, to ask why?
What is it, in your opinion, which makes you able to more fully understand the desire for religion? I understand it fully. Nobody more than me would like to believe that an afterlife exists, and we'll all be together again someday to spend eternity in the company of those we love most. I wish it were true. My education just doesn't allow me to believe it.

Please explain a biological imperative which would give rise to religion and further justify your point that "all animals have intelligence." I would rather say for example that all animals may draw on instinct, not that all animals are intelligent in some way.

For my part, I think the progression toward religion went something like this:

Crazy, unexplainable things are happening.
Humans don't cause them, so something or someone else must.
These things have been going on so long that surely only a very powerful, very old being could be in control of them.
Some of these things are beneficial to humans, so humans feel obliged to show gratitude, and alternatively some are detrimental, so humans feel the need to placate.
Ceremony , sacrifice, and ritual come into being.
Select individuals claim a greater knowledge of or a higher relationship with this being; they become the first spiritual/religious leaders.
The leaders gain influence and control over their subordinates.
Religion becomes a way of life, since those who are religious are the leaders of communities.
Religious fanaticism is born. Let me point out here that without religion, fanatics would still be fanatics about something. It just so happens that in this case they cling to faith.
Religion becomes an excuse to oppress and discriminate, and incidentally delays the progress of science and technology by a thousand years.

Most skeptics discount the Bible as nothing more than ancient rubbish, but then again, they are just fooling themselves. ...the Bible, as a text, should not be discounted as merely fiction, simply because one refuses to believe it is anything more than just that, but then again such ignorance isn't entirely unheard of among skeptics...
I agree with you that the bible should not be discounted entirely. There is a great deal to be learned from literary analysis of the mythology and poetry contained within it.

I agree Atheists don't write pamplets, they write text books. And please don't be fooled, there are many many atheists who use the public system to evangilize their ideals to young minds. I had a biology professor who loved to take my hard earned money and class time to preach how everyone that believed in Jesus was stupid.
Athiests, like the religious, write their opinions, which some educators may or may not choose to teach. I think we can agree that it is equally wrong for an atheist to impose his or her views on students as for a religious educator to impose his or her views, but with the line between public and parochial schools blurring, how should we address the double standard?

U.S.S.R. under the Atheist doctrin of Communism, murdered countless people. While it wasn't an outright war, it certainly was a war on religion.
Religion doesn't breed stupidity and ignorance, stupid people do. Even if you successfully erased all religions off the face of the map, there are plenty of Darwinites just waiting to achieve Darwin Award glory. Most wars are caused by the desire of power, of which leads back to human error and human ignorance.
This goes back to my comment that fanatics are fanatics, but if you take the average religious family made up of good people and magically erase the religion from them, will they still be good people? I would think so. Why should people need the promise of paradise or the threat of damnation in order to lead decent lives?

Also, please explain Communism as "an Athiest doctrine."

While I might not understand everything, ergo the finner points of photosynthesis, nor be able to literally quote every element on the periodic table, of which is still oddly taped to my wall, my yearning for knowledge has not dominished.
It's hard for me to respond to this because I think you'll feel like I'm condescending to you. I'm not. My only response is, don't you feel like you could view the universe more objectively if you weren't viewing it as the creation of or belonging to a god?
In other words, you could argue that if science can mathematically prove the parameters of the universe and all the goings-on therein, athiests and scientists will literally "find god" one day in the mechanics of it all.
Past a certain point, religion has no answer. Just believe. Just have faith. It's a mystery. But where religion asks for blind faith, science asks for your critical, unbiased observation, and it discards that which is not provably true.

[Maverick]

Alright, find god. What about the creation of life on earth? The Primordial soup theory incredibly unlikely, all lab recreations have failed under the best circumstances, and the odds are astronomical that the proper elements would bind at exactly the right time. There are those who would say that a supreme being caused something like this in order to begin evolution.

[Necro Mortis]

Alright, find god. What about the creation of life on earth? The Primordial soup theory incredibly unlikely, all lab recreations have failed under the best circumstances, and the odds are astronomical that the proper elements would bind at exactly the right time. There are those who would say that a supreme being caused something like this in order to begin evolution.

One in a million chances succeed nine times out of ten. I like those odds.

[Vendetta]

God exists = Faith statement.Unsupporte d by logic or reason.
God does not exist = Faith statement.Supported by logic, reason and lack of evidence. Yeah, that's not the same thing as religious faith so much.

Also, his definition of faith is a pretty narrow one. The dictionary says faith can mean a LOT of things:

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that he could fly.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

[UNODRAGONE]

Unsupported by logic or reason.
Supported by logic, reason and lack of evidence. Yeah, that's not the same thing as religious faith so much.

Also, his definition of faith is a pretty narrow one. The dictionary says faith can mean a LOT of things:

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that he could fly.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

if not faith what would you call it? (besides bull, what would the people who believe in it call it or should call it since you don't agree with that statement)

[Vendetta]

if not faith what would you call it?
Fact. Or at the very least, a reasonable assumption.

(besides bull, what would the people who believe in it call it or should call it since you don't agree with that statement)
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. I was specifically addressing Bookwyrm's quoting of Dr. Principe, and his use of the word 'faith'.

Also, I'd like to ask Dr. Principe what on earth a "knowledge claim" is? Because it seems to me that using the words knowledge and faith in the same sentence is kind of contradictory.

[Galliard]

I believe in the human soul and I also believe that there is a Greater Being that has helped the evolution of the universe along.

Human beings have arrived at a level of consciousness that other animals have not exhibited. What created that first spark? What created that first, initial drive to reach beyond just instinctual survival? What led us to be philosophical, to WANT to believe in something greater ourselves? What led us to communicate in the complex forms that we do today? Why is it important for us to strive for something greater than ourselves? I don't think that we know the answers to those questions, and I believe that it was because of a being, or race of beings (which are generally called gods by we humans) greater than ourselves that have intervened along the way. God, or the concept of God/gods/spiritual entities haven't been disproven yet. That which has made us complex, which has made us what human beings are in whole, hasn't been identified by the parameters of science fully, and until that day comes, when science gives name to God, or what people have envisioned to be God, and defined the parameters of what God is, I'll be perfectly happy to recognize that unknowable force in a way that I am comfortable with.

Also a question, meant in a calm tone of voice, as I am truly interested. How did the big bang happen? It's more or less established that the big bang was the scientific "start" of the universe. What could cause something about as big as a pin to expand to the size of the universe we know today? How could something have that much mass? How impossibly bright must that have been, with everything that could ever be in that one small, cramped space, and then BOOM!!!! It's something like that which causes me TO believe that something makes things initially happen in the universe. No, I don't have proof yet, but I am curious to see if you do. I really, really want to know.

[Vendetta]

No, I don't have proof yet, but I am curious to see if you do. I really, really want to know.
A couple of millenia ago, did we have proof that the earth was round? We don't know the reasons for a LOT of things in our universe, but we are always learning new things... through SCIENCE. As I have said before, where religion ends questioning, science and reason BEGIN it.

[Faolan]

Since my last post up to this point I witness it explode way out of proportion from what I was talking about. Red_Queen, Vendetta, never once I was saying about groups. I was talking about individual people being douches to other individual people. All I was trying to tell you is that it isn't just people who are fanatically faithful who forces their opinions on others but also fanatically faithless.

Vendetta, my experiences are not limited. I was a Nihilist. I used to believe that nothing was worth it. But something changed and now I'm happy.

Red_Queen your right in saying that I have the right to be wrong. Then thats means in that statement you too have the right to be wrong. Please don't tell me that science is what makes you right and me wrong. Because I too believe in science and to use rational thinking before jumping to conclusions when a "miracle" happens.

Morgana Fang got exactly what I said, I can't understand how the two of you could so blow out of proportion my earlier posts. Believe it or not but I like the two of you, I think your both intelligent and up-right people. So I hope you finally understand what I was trying to say. If you wish to pick apart at my post again and continue on parading that I'm somehow wrong again then I will know better, I'll know that the two of you just can't tolerate religion in any form even if the person who believes in it is peaceful and tolerant of you.

P.s. I really have nothing against you and don't take this the wrong way but I pray to God that you both have good lives ahead of you. Full of love, kindness and serenity.

[Bookwyrm]

Unsupported by logic or reason.

...

Supported by logic, reason and lack of evidence.

The first can actually be supported by both logic and reason, though as none of the Biblical authors did so I hesitate to use that as a primary point.

The second can be supported by logic and reason as well, though there are a few holes that pop up in certain areas, the main one of which is covered in the next paragraph; but also in areas such as the development of life. This was seen by atheists as well, such as Popper (I forget his first name, but I have his article on this on another computer and can quote from it or send it to you).

However, the second cannot be "supported by lack of evidence." You can't prove a negative; it's simply not possible. That's the main reason you can't logically prove that God does not exist.

Unless, of course, you've taken a completely different logic class than I did.

[LV426]

See Fao I find that offensive. You specifically know that neither of those people believe in god and yet you are still going to state that you are praying for them. It annoys the piss out of me when christians pull that crap on me. I have an ex-coworker that knew I didn't believe in god, and I had to ask her numerous times to keep her religion off my desk. She would constantly say she was praying for me, and asking god to help me find my way and be happy. Minor fucking details I am happy and I don't need god to be happy. And I sure don't need someone praying for me to be happy. I make my own happiness, not some god.

[Faolan]

I was just being nice.

[Vendetta]

The first can actually be supported by both logic and reason, though as none of the Biblical authors did so I hesitate to use that as a primary point.
Huh? So you're saying there IS logic and genuine reason behind faith, but because no one wrote it down, you're SOL in explaining it? Man, that sucks.

However, the second cannot be "supported by lack of evidence." You can't prove a negative; it's simply not possible. That's the main reason you can't logically prove that God does not exist.
What negative am I trying to prove? Honestly, I don't HAVE to prove anything. There is no evidence that god exists, therefore as far as I'm concerned he does not. The burden of proof ought to be on the "faithful". Except that your argument consists of nothing more than faith, which cannot be debated with reason or logic.

[Kaden]

LV, you guys should not get offended by that. Seriously, its along the same lines as someone telling you to have a good day. You don't need them to say it to have a good day, but it's nice to hear it.

I wasn't always Catholic, but I never got offended if someone said "God bless you" for something I did that was nice. I never got offended if someone said they were praying for me.

It's nice to think that someone is CARING enough to think about someone else.

So do you get offended if you sneeze and someone says God Bless you?

It's so trite and ridiculous. He wasn't asking them to believe in the God he was praying to. He was just making a kind gesture. Fao hasn't pushed his religion on anyone. Neither have I. But I can't help but feel that you guys are pushing your agendas and views on us. Making us look like unintelligent people. I don't take the bible litterally, I don't even believe in the great flood. I believe in evolution and stem cell research. I believe that there is no "one true religion" only the religion that is right for you. But all I'm getting from here, is that I'm wrong, because I believe in something that can't be proved. It's not like I believe I'm a werewolf.

Sorry if you guys were being over sensitive and took offense to what Fao said, but you guys said a lot of hurtful and inconsiderate things. All he meant was well.

[Vendetta]

but you guys said a lot of hurtful and inconsiderate things. All he meant was well.
We've said hurtful and inconsiderate things? Have you ever paused to consider how hurtful and inconsiderate it is to say "God bless you" to an atheist or hell, even a polytheist?

See this is where I see the double standard start to creep in. Fao talks about atheists being all in his face with their lack of belief in his god, but atheists are just supposed to smile and nod when people "bless them" or hang their religion and faith on their sleeve for all to see. And I'm talking about the great majority here, not some handful of zealots, as that lot is far, far worse.

[Sabor_X]

Hmm
I feel like I should say this so...

"Why can't we just leave them alone..."


So answer me this...why can't you just leave eachother alone? So what if you believe different things? Just stop arguing. If you have an opposing view, then explain it WITHOUT bringing the other person down.

[Sabor_X]

Have you ever paused to consider how hurtful and inconsiderate it is to say "God bless you" to an atheist or hell, even a polytheist?





Some people are raised to be kind. To some people, "God bless you" is simply habit or kindness. It's not their fault you're an overly exageratted atheist...

[LV426]

Normally I don't pay attention when someone blesses me when I sneeze. In fact most of the time people, including myself, just say bless you. There is no god inserted. It's a courtesy, and no religious connotation about it, just courtesy. However whenever anyone finds out that I am not a christian and in fact I lean more towards Atheism, it never fails than the "god bless you", "I will pray for you", and "God loves you" come out of the closet. When you are sitting at your desk praying aloud for the salvation of my soul, that offends me. My soul is just fine where it is. In fact I don't like the Christian version of heaven. I don't want to go there. And if there is a God, we would have a serious personality conflict because I sure as hell don't agree with any of his designs, except maybe giraffes cause giraffes are cool.

Problem is that the majority of christians can't understand that I am happy the way I am and that I live a damn good life with morals of my own that for the most part parallel their own. I just happen to be pro-choice, pro-gay, and anti-religious. That doesn't make me a bad person but I can't convince the majority of christians of that. I'm a godless heathen that must have my soul saved and Jesus Christ shoved down my throat at every opportunity.

I also don't go around and broadcast that I'm an atheist. I only respond in kind if asked OR when someone starts trying to preach to me. I have also on occasion had debates with people who I know are religious and have had fairly civil discussions. JLR is one whom I have had discussions with on this board and never once has he said he's going to pray for me. I don't like being preached at or told that my dying/dead family members are going to be crying in heaven for me because I will be going to hell. I hate being badgered by know it all christians who think they know what's best for me. I hate when pushy people get in my face and tell me that I will burn in hell because I won't accept Jesus Christ as my savior.

I've been baptized, I've read the Bible, numerous versions in fact, I have been to several different temples, churches, and denominations. No one could give me a good enough answer. God wasn't there for me. So I made my own way and became my own god.

It amazes me that the very same people who will sit and make fun of those who believe in werewolves or think they can change into werewolves will actually defend a religious belief that has no basis in fact and no evidence to support it.

[Necro Mortis]

You pretty much said it all. Another things is I wish they wouldn’t brainwash kids into becoming their mindless soldiers in a religious war. And teaching kids that dinosaurs were alive at the same time as humans? What the hell is this, the Flintstones?

[Vendetta]

Some people are raised to be kind. To some people, "God bless you" is simply habit or kindness. It's not their fault you're an overly exageratted atheist...
I'm just curious, why do people say ANYTHING when other people sneeze? I've never understood how that has ANYTHING to do with being polite. Holding a door open for someone (regardless of gender) is polite. Saying some, effectively meaningless words (and yes, I mean meaningless, even for the giver,) when someone has an involuntary reaction to dust or allergens doesn't seem to correlate to politeness.

Basically what LV said, with one addition, and the one that bugs me the most: people of faith who, when someone has died, have the temerity and arrogance to say "they're in a better place now" (or similar trite saying) with NO regard for the deceased person or their loved ones' beliefs. Yeah, you want to believe they're in a "better place" that's your perogative (as misguided as I may think it is.) But to tell it to the face of family members and loved ones is just fucking crass. If YOU need god to get you through hard times, fine, but don't expect that everyone needs that crutch, and certainly don't say to MY face.

[RQ]

You pretty much said it all. Another things is I wish they wouldn’t brainwash kids into becoming their mindless soldiers in a religious war. And teaching kids that dinosaurs were alive at the same time as humans? What the hell is this, the Flintstones?
I far prefer Richard Dawkins' notion of referring to children not as "christian/muslim/jewish children" but rather children of christian/muslim/jewish parents, since no child can make an informed statement of belief in anything, let alone a religious faith.

[Sabor_X]

I don't really know why people say things when some sneezes. It's just like when someone burps, and they say 'excuse me' I guess. But is it honestly a big deal? I completely understand what you mean with the 'they're in a better place' stuff though. But people aren't going to change for you. They'll say what they want to say and what they were taught to say I suppose.

[Necro Mortis]

I far prefer Richard Dawkins' notion of referring to children not as "christian/muslim/jewish children" but rather children of christian/muslim/jewish parents, since no child can make an informed statement of belief in anything, let alone a religious faith.

Exactly. It’s like kids are being fed all these fantastical stories about amazing things. They can’t put it through the usual bullshit detectors that adults can and once you’ve drilled it into their heads enough, eventually even when they are adults they won’t question it anyway.

[LV426]

The basis of the sneeze based bless you was because people believed when you sneezed your soul would fly away so saying bless you would keep it with you. Another belief was that your heart stops when you sneeze so saying bless you would restart it.

I'm pretty sure however that bears have sneezed in the woods for years and not had anyone say bless you and their hearts never stopped beating.

[Vendetta]

I far prefer Richard Dawkins' notion of referring to children not as "christian/muslim/jewish children" but rather children of christian/muslim/jewish parents, since no child can make an informed statement of belief in anything, let alone a religious faith.
Dan Dennett, an evolutionary biology and cognitive philosopher, in a speach at a TED conference, basically said that he thought all or nearly all major religions should be taught in school. That is to say, he did NOT mean the worship of their respective deities and the like, but the actual FACTS pertaining to each religion; what the basic tenets of the religions were, what restrictions they impose, etc. So that children would be more inclined to be able to make up their own mind about religion, or at the very least have a better grounding.

Somewhere in the range of 80-85% of all children eventually end up adopting the religion of their parents. Why is this? Is it because their parents' religion is somehow more "right"? No, it's because of indoctrination, plain and simple, and it needs to end.

But people aren't going to change for you.
Honestly, I don't expect them to, but then they shouldn't expect me to either. So stop trying to convert me or save my soul.

They'll say what they want to say and what they were taught to say I suppose.
So you're saying they're brainwashed? Iiiinteresting.

[LV426]

OK just to set the record straight. Faolan did not say he was praying for me so I'm not offended by him. What I was stating is that I do get offended when people who are christians or other religions state that they will pray for me in any capacity when they know for a fact that I am not of their religion.

Vendetta also stated what actions he felt were offensive to him and so that was not a direct attack. This is a discussion forum and as such we are able to discuss topics that people may find objectionable but nonetheless exist. The only way it should be considered personal is if someone says "Faolan you are such an idiot for believing in god why can't you just stop believing in him like the rest of us." So far I think we've all been pretty generic in stating what we object to and how we feel without belittling anyone specifically. Even if some of us do think that religion is a load of bullshit and others think the rest of us are going to burn in hell.

[Krallis]

Sometimes if your told something enough you begin to believe it. Maybe thats the philosophy they base all this stuuf on when they try to convert you to their religion.

[Kaden]

But something people need to remember is that not all religious people are like this. Not all of us seek to convert. I don't care what your current faith is if you have one. You believe what you want. It's your perogative. I won't shove my faith on you, and I'd appreciate it if the same was done back to me. I can't stand it when people come door to door trying to ask me if I've found Jesus. I tell them "Yeah, he's under my couch looking for the remote control." But the thing is that everyone needs to learn to better respect each others beliefs.

[Vendetta]

But the thing is that everyone needs to learn to better respect each others beliefs.
I guess the problem I have is, where do we draw line on acceptance? Do we accept any and ALL beliefs? What if I belonged to a religion that believed strongly that white people are superior to all other ethnicities? What about a religion that views cannibalism as perfectly acceptable, and in fact a part of religious rituals? Do we accept and respect these beliefs?

[Kaden]

Let me rephrase that... accept their beliefs on an individual basis. If someone has hostile or violent or hateful beliefs then we have every reason to be pissed at them and not follow their beliefs. Me being Catholic and you being Athiest however is not hateful or violent towards eachother. At least it shouldn't be.

And I would like to throw this back out again to anyone out there that isnt Christian or what ever. I don't believe you are going to Hell, I believe that all that really matters in life is that you are a good person and thats what counts. Not how many you convert, not what you believe in but that you are good to your fellow man.

[Vendetta]

Let me rephrase that... accept their beliefs on an individual basis. If someone has hostile or violent or hateful beliefs then we have every reason to be pissed at them and not follow their beliefs. Me being Catholic and you being Athiest however is not hateful or violent towards each other. At least it shouldn't be.
So we're back where we started: as an atheist I think belief in a grand-high muckety-muck in the sky is silly. I may not hate someone who believes in god (or gods) but I will certainly think LESS of them.

And I would like to throw this back out again to anyone out there that isnt Christian or what ever. I don't believe you are going to Hell, I believe that all that really matters in life is that you are a good person and thats what counts. Not how many you convert, not what you believe in but that you are good to your fellow man.
So.... you're not really a very good Catholic are you? This isn't a personal attack, just an observation based on your stated beliefs.

[Bookwyrm]

No, that would be an attack. Which is part of the reason why I'm abandoning this thread.

-----
Edit:
I should have said "While that is not a personal attack, it's still an attack." I apologize for the unintentional accusation. I just realized that I called you a liar, and I didn't mean to.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled post.
-----

I was trying to catch up on all the posts, but this has become a free-for-all of people on both sides not carefully reading what people say and just trying to attack each other rather than carefully consider each statement.

When I started here a few days ago, I'd heard a lot of good things about this forum from my friends. I read the posts and found a lot of people rationally discussing things. I thought that I'd finally found a place where I could get involved in a calm discussion on this topic without people starting to yell at each other.

However, this is obviously not the case. I can't even keep track of who's saying what anymore. Maybe if I had more time I'd be able to. I really, honestly, would like to continue and try to keep things at a reasonable level, but without a little more moderation around here I don't think I can spare the energy.

If anyone would like to discuss things with me privately, or on another thread where a neutral party can keep things in order, I would more than welcome the chance. However, I cannot spare time for a name-calling match, which seems to be what this is devolving into.

Actually, if any of you are in or near Northern Virginia, I would also welcome the chance for you to meet me over coffee or something. The human touch would help avoid misunderstandings, and there's something about sharing a meal or drink that puts people at ease.

For now, though, I have to wash my hands of this. I have a history midterm on Tuesday and a theology midterm a week after that, a paper due at the same time, and I have to rehearse for our St. Patrick's Day party. I have a full docket at the moment. I'm honestly disappointed, but I just can't spare the energy.

See you around the forum.

[Vendetta]

No, that would be an attack. Which is part of the reason why I'm abandoning this thread.
So as a Catholic it's OK to ignore church dogma and scripture? I'm just curious here. And NO it wasn't an attack, I'm sorry if you don't see it that way, but I'm pretty sure if I was attacking anyone everyone would damn well know it.

[Necro Mortis]

If people can’t take criticism on what they believe then what’s the point? People who can’t defend their religion against logic should just give up. Sorry, I am being a drunken cynic right now but seriously, everything people do draws criticism and if they can’t deal with it obviously their religion is not coming up with enough validations and they feel uncomfortable.

[Kaden]

So we're back where we started: as an atheist I think belief in a grand-high muckety-muck in the sky is silly. I may not hate someone who believes in god (or gods) but I will certainly think LESS of them.


So.... you're not really a very good Catholic are you? This isn't a personal attack, just an observation based on your stated beliefs.

Okay, I don't take that as an offense because I know I'm not a strict Catholic. I don't agree 100% with everything the Catholic Church says. I don't follow every word of the pope. I believe in science and think it's a wonderful study that can help people and help us understand the universe (go stem cell research). I believe in evolution. I believe I may very well be wrong.

I feel that the faith is right for me and me alone. Faith (or lack there of) to me is a personal thing. I am often skeptical of the existance of Hell. Why do I believe in these things? Because I'd like to think there is something more to life than just cold hard facts and tangible things. The belief in Heaven calms me. The belief that my grandparents are watching over me, helps me to not be so sad about losing them.

I'm not one of those Christians that just KNOWS that they're right and everyone else is wrong. I believe that anything is possible in terms of the mysteries of the universe. Hell, for all I know, Hindu may be the true religion... that'd be interesting (not bad, it's a fascinating religion, it'd be interesting). For all I know, you athiests are right. I don't think, you should think less of someone for having religion. It makes you sound elitist. I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying that's how it comes off. We aren't any less intelligent for believing in God or what have you... it's just a different set of ideals from yours.

That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

[UNODRAGONE]

I have maybe two friends who are of the same religion as me and the rest are mixed. I have NEVER and would NEVER push my religion on any of them and they wouldn't to me. My atheist friends and I (surprisingly I have a lot and my dad was one as well because of certain circumstances) respect each other, when they sneeze I say shut up, I would never say bless you or I'll pray for you to someone who isn't religious because it's disrespectful since they don't believe in it just like if someone I loved died they wouldn't say he/she disappeared into the abyss. I have been to many funerals and am currently going to school to be a counselor (bereavement counselor as well as vet tech) and there is one universal thing I have learned when someone dies, there is NOTHING you can say that would heal their pain and there is nothing more comforting then a hug and an 'I'm here for you' my sister is on my ass all the time because of the friends I have but to me it's mute, we have a free will to believe in anything we want and I tell religious people that all the time, God gave us free will right, well then you preaching to someone is kind of against what he gave us huh. I was raised a catholic and have had my fair share of denouncing God at certain points in my life but honestly, now it's just what fits for me. It's not about me pushing it on someone else or preaching it or trying to make people accept it, it's about at the end of the day how I feel and what makes me sleep better at night. I have nothing to prove to anyone I simply live my life the way I feel best with and respect those who choose different paths. It's not about what someone believes or doesn't believe to me, it's about how they treat me, who they are as a person, that matters.

[archenemyfan]

[FONT="Century Gothic"] I have NEVER and would NEVER push my religion on any of them and they wouldn't to me.[\FONT]

i dont do that stuff either. but i believe in God and Satan so why does it matter? for all we know, if there's a Christ, there's an Anti-Christ. Its just that way. I have people I don't know come up to me just because I wore a "Behemoth" Shirt and say "Why do you worship satan? he is a bitch." and im like "i dont worship him and i think you need to back off". it happened to me three times this week and this guy is like "what religion are you?" and i tell him "well i believe in God and Satan so is there its own religion for that?"
I think the problem is that some of the people try to spread their own beliefs and maybe they don't know that they are really brainwashed in some religions. Dont ask me what religions but it can happen. They want all their friends to worship the same God but almost every religion is just like that. Only one God is worshipped! I don't really care about religion anymore because its not one of my core-carriculums in life.

[ThrasherCub]

I've never been quite so happy to have a holy book which actually demands that you not run around converting people.

[Necro Mortis]

Bah! All yor Relijins is a stupid! :D:D:D:D:D:confused: :mad::eek::confused: ;):):mad::o:(:confus ed:

[ThrasherCub]

Relijin!

And Wiccyn majik?

[Necro Mortis]

Santan wurshippor! :eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek:

[archenemyfan]

Santan wurshippor! :eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek:

hahaha

[UNODRAGONE]

i dont do that stuff either. but i believe in God and Satan so why does it matter? for all we know, if there's a Christ, there's an Anti-Christ. Its just that way. I have people I don't know come up to me just because I wore a "Behemoth" Shirt and say "Why do you worship satan? he is a bitch." and im like "i dont worship him and i think you need to back off". it happened to me three times this week and this guy is like "what religion are you?" and i tell him "well i believe in God and Satan so is there its own religion for that?"
I think the problem is that some of the people try to spread their own beliefs and maybe they don't know that they are really brainwashed in some religions. Dont ask me what religions but it can happen. They want all their friends to worship the same God but almost every religion is just like that. Only one God is worshipped! I don't really care about religion anymore because its not one of my core-carriculums in life.


your right in the long run what does it matter? People think I worship Satan because I love horror, I let them believe what ever they want to I don't argue something that makes no difference in whether they believe me or not and something I know to be true. See your a lot nicer then me, if someone asks me anythign personal like that I refuse to answer, why? None of their buisness, judge me for how I treat you not what I believe.

[greggchamberlain]

when i am feeling in a mischievous mood, i open the door when any Jehovah Witness knocks and greet them with "Shalom!" just to see their reaction.

:D

[ThrasherCub]

when i am feeling in a mischievous mood, i open the door when any Jehovah Witness knocks and greet them with "Shalom!" just to see their reaction.

:D

I casually ask if they're the ones who said they'd be by later for the goat's blood (though I never wait for an answer). At which point I act very annoyed and tell them I told them NOT TO SHOW UP UNTIL [2 hours later than current time]! IT'S NOT DONE, THE GOAT'S NOT DONE COPULATING WITH HER!

Then I remind them of the correct pick-up time and close the door.

[archenemyfan]

your right in the long run what does it matter? People think I worship Satan because I love horror, I let them believe what ever they want to I don't argue something that makes no difference in whether they believe me or not and something I know to be true. See your a lot nicer then me, if someone asks me anythign personal like that I refuse to answer, why? None of their buisness, judge me for how I treat you not what I believe.

you make an excellent point there UNODRAGONE. i also love horror and i freak my english teacher out every time i get a scary book. and plus i usually wear black t-shirts every day. so that kinda makes it worse. but she likes me cuz i have a good grade. :D
sometimes i am nicer, it all just depends what mood im in. but the judge me for how i treat you thing is probably the best thing to do.

when i am feeling in a mischievous mood, i open the door when any Jehovah Witness knocks and greet them with "Shalom!" just to see their reaction.

:D

what does Shalom mean?

[Faolan]

what does Shalom mean?

Shalom
From: The Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English | Date: 2008
The Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English

sha·lom / shäˈlōm; shə-/ • interj. used as salutation by Jews at meeting or parting, meaning “peace.”

However that is a rather clinical statement of the word. I found a more broader way to explain this Hebrew word at this site.

http://www.jewishscouting.o rg/awards/counselorsguidetothe maccabeeawardjewisht erms.asp
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shalom

This term is commonly used as the greeting in Hebrew for both "hello" and "farewell" or "goodbye." In reality, however, it means neither. It denotes "peace." The word for peace in Arabic, "salem" sounds very much like it.

In Judaism, "shalom" is viewed as God's most perfect and most priceless blessing, the goal of all blessings. It is so important that the term concludes the priestly benediction, is found liberally in the ending prayers of the "silent devotion"" and is a catchword in the grace after meals. What is more. we have been taught that when "shalom" is missing, virtually none of the other blessings in life can compensate for it.

But it would be a mistake to think that "shalom" simply means the absence of war. A country may be at peace with its neighbors, but because of widespread hunger and poverty, may not enjoy the blessing of "shalom." Derived from the Hebrew root meaning wholeness, it signifies harmony despite differences, well-being of every conceivable kind, and above all, perfection. Accordingly, "shalom," meaning "all perfect," is one of the names of God in our tradition.

In short, "shalom" is more akin to a state of cooperation, helpfulness, good neighborliness, and friendly interaction.
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So if someone tells you "Shalom!", be happy. It's a very thoughtful greeting in Judaism, much akin to someone telling you "Bless you!" as a greeting of thanks or a heartfelt goodbye.

[UNODRAGONE]

you make an excellent point there UNODRAGONE. i also love horror and i freak my english teacher out every time i get a scary book. and plus i usually wear black t-shirts every day. so that kinda makes it worse. but she likes me cuz i have a good grade. :D
sometimes i am nicer, it all just depends what mood im in. but the judge me for how i treat you thing is probably the best thing to do.



what does Shalom mean?


words I live by lol I don't care so much about someones past or how they treat other people I care about how they are with me. Your past is your own, those are your scars to deal with I have no right to judge you :) I don't need someone to believe in what I believe or agree with me, I just care about you care for me and respect me

[Vendetta]

Shalom
From: The Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English | Date: 2008
The Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English

sha·lom / shäˈlōm; shə-/ • interj. used as salutation by Jews at meeting or parting, meaning “peace.”

However that is a rather clinical statement of the word. I found a more broader way to explain this Hebrew word at this site.

http://www.jewishscouting.o rg/awards/counselorsguidetothe maccabeeawardjewisht erms.asp
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Shalom

This term is commonly used as the greeting in Hebrew for both "hello" and "farewell" or "goodbye." In reality, however, it means neither. It denotes "peace." The word for peace in Arabic, "salem" sounds very much like it.

In Judaism, "shalom" is viewed as God's most perfect and most priceless blessing, the goal of all blessings. It is so important that the term concludes the priestly benediction, is found liberally in the ending prayers of the "silent devotion"" and is a catchword in the grace after meals. What is more. we have been taught that when "shalom" is missing, virtually none of the other blessings in life can compensate for it.

But it would be a mistake to think that "shalom" simply means the absence of war. A country may be at peace with its neighbors, but because of widespread hunger and poverty, may not enjoy the blessing of "shalom." Derived from the Hebrew root meaning wholeness, it signifies harmony despite differences, well-being of every conceivable kind, and above all, perfection. Accordingly, "shalom," meaning "all perfect," is one of the names of God in our tradition.

In short, "shalom" is more akin to a state of cooperation, helpfulness, good neighborliness, and friendly interaction.
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So if someone tells you "Shalom!", be happy. It's a very thoughtful greeting in Judaism, much akin to someone telling you "Bless you!" as a greeting of thanks or a heartfelt goodbye.
Actually you were right the first time; it's just a Jewish greeting (and farewell.) It's nearly synonymous with "hello" these days.

Also, all those supposedly informative definitions completely missed the fact that 'shalom' by itself is actually an abbreviated salutation, and the actual greeting is 'Shalom aleichem'. Actually it's also the name of a song you sing at Shabbat dinner, but that's neither here nor there.

[Necro Mortis]

Does it go 'Shalom my friend may peace be with you throughout your days' ?

[archenemyfan]

way to piss a jew off. lol [i dont want to offend ANY jews out there. if i offended you im sorry]

[Necro Mortis]

Never mind them. Watch out for the Japs. If anyone gets this I will be suprised.