Moses was high on drugs

[LV426]

Moses was high on drugs: Israeli researcher (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080304/od_afp/israelreligionoffbea t;_ylt=Ai65SbtYwEJ4A iPb4rYTVSuek3QF)

Tue Mar 4, 7:02 AM ET

JERUSALEM (AFP) - High on Mount Sinai, Moses was on psychedelic drugs when he heard God deliver the Ten Commandments, an Israeli researcher claimed in a study published this week.


Such mind-altering substances formed an integral part of the religious rites of Israelites in biblical times, Benny Shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem wrote in the Time and Mind journal of philosophy.

"As far Moses on Mount Sinai is concerned, it was either a supernatural cosmic event, which I don't believe, or a legend, which I don't believe either, or finally, and this is very probable, an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics," Shanon told Israeli public radio on Tuesday.

Moses was probably also on drugs when he saw the "burning bush," suggested Shanon, who said he himself has dabbled with such substances.

"The Bible says people see sounds, and that is a clasic phenomenon," he said citing the example of religious ceremonies in the Amazon in which drugs are used that induce people to "see music."

He mentioned his own experience when he used ayahuasca, a powerful psychotropic plant, during a religious ceremony in Brazil's Amazon forest in 1991. "I experienced visions that had spiritual-religious connotations," Shanon said.

He said the psychedelic effects of ayahuasca were comparable to those produced by concoctions based on bark of the acacia tree, that is frequently mentioned in the Bible.

[ThrasherCub]

That's actually the most reasonable explanation I've ever seen.

:D I look forward to showing it to christians.

[UNODRAGONE]

Although I am not too keen to believe the whole Moses scenario in the bible, that article really didn't show any proof onto how he knew Moses was on drugs

[Vendetta]

Although I am not too keen to believe the whole Moses scenario in the bible, that article really didn't show any proof onto how he knew Moses was on drugs
The "researcher" himself never claimed to KNOW that Moses was on drugs, despite the AFP article's leaning towards the contrary.

"As far Moses on Mount Sinai is concerned, it was either a supernatural cosmic event, which I don't believe, or a legend, which I don't believe either, or finally, and this is very probable, an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics," Shanon told Israeli public radio on Tuesday.

Moses was probably also on drugs when he saw the "burning bush," suggested Shanon, who said he himself has dabbled with such substances.

Also, I'd like to point out that there is evidence that other famous religious experiences were nothing more than hallucinations due to starvation or mind-altering substances (intentionally taken or otherwise.)

[UNODRAGONE]

Moses was high on drugs: Israeli researcher (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080304/od_afp/israelreligionoffbea t;_ylt=Ai65SbtYwEJ4A iPb4rYTVSuek3QF)

Tue Mar 4, 7:02 AM ET

JERUSALEM (AFP) - High on Mount Sinai, Moses was on psychedelic drugs when he heard God deliver the Ten Commandments, an Israeli researcher claimed in a study published this week.


Such mind-altering substances formed an integral part of the religious rites of Israelites in biblical times, Benny Shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem wrote in the Time and Mind journal of philosophy.

"As far Moses on Mount Sinai is concerned, it was either a supernatural cosmic event, which I don't believe, or a legend, which I don't believe either, or finally, and this is very probable, an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics," Shanon told Israeli public radio on Tuesday.

Moses was probably also on drugs when he saw the "burning bush," suggested Shanon, who said he himself has dabbled with such substances.

"The Bible says people see sounds, and that is a clasic phenomenon," he said citing the example of religious ceremonies in the Amazon in which drugs are used that induce people to "see music."

He mentioned his own experience when he used ayahuasca, a powerful psychotropic plant, during a religious ceremony in Brazil's Amazon forest in 1991. "I experienced visions that had spiritual-religious connotations," Shanon said.

He said the psychedelic effects of ayahuasca were comparable to those produced by concoctions based on bark of the acacia tree, that is frequently mentioned in the Bible.

That is were I probably got confused because that is what the heading was saying but upon reading the article I found nothing supporting it ;)

The "researcher" himself never claimed to KNOW that Moses was on drugs, despite the AFP article's leaning towards the contrary.



Also, I'd like to point out that there is evidence that other famous religious experiences were nothing more than hallucinations due to starvation or mind-altering substances (intentionally taken or otherwise.)

please tell me where I can find that info!! I love cases like that (I am currently reading the book about the real Emily Rose that states the whole medical aspect of her condition as oppose to her 'possesion'

[Vendetta]

please tell me where I can find that info!
The telly (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrainqa.shtml), and you know, books (http://www.amazon.com/Experience-Hallucinations-Religious-Practice/dp/0974813958).

Schizophrenia is also a common cause of "religious" visions.

[RQ]

Fictional characters cannot imbibe real mind-altering substances.

Just FYI.

[Vendetta]

Fictional characters cannot imbibe real mind-altering substances.

Just FYI.
I'm pretty sure that not every person in the Bible is fictional. In fact I imagine a good deal of them were actual dudes, Moses among them. I still think it's more likely that they ingested hallucinagenic plants or suffered from heat-stroke than "talked" to god (who was apparently a burning shrubbery.)

[RQ]

I'm pretty sure that not every person in the Bible is fictional. In fact I imagine a good deal of them were actual dudes, Moses among them. I still think it's more likely that they ingested hallucinagenic plants or suffered from heat-stroke than "talked" to god (who was apparently a burning shrubbery.)
In the context of a Moses who talked to god, freed the slaves, parted the red sea, and set forth a law for the Hebrews, I'm thinking he's fictional.

As for a guy named Moses who decided that the only way to gain control and impose law and order over a seething mass of just-freed slaves was to say it was the will of god (otherwise it begs the question, who are you to tell us what to do?) well... I'd say god told me to say it, too.

[Krallis]

"I was gonna get out and deliver commandments but den I got high."

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3449 252400485197617&q=history+of+the+wor ld+commandments&total=38&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

THAT proves it!

[BlackRosePhantom]

That's actually the most reasonable explanation I've ever seen.

:D I look forward to showing it to christians.

Forget the Christians! I'm showing this to the Jews!

Oh, and Moses was just as real as Jesus. And the "ten" plages" can be explained by science via natural geological quakes (as well as the "parting" of the sea.

[MorganaFang]

Forget the Christians! I'm showing this to the Jews!

Oh, and Moses was just as real as Jesus. And the "ten" plages" can be explained by science via natural geological quakes (as well as the "parting" of the sea.

http://www.werewolf.com/vb/showthread.php?t=178 40

Sheeshsss

[Vendetta]

As for a guy named Moses who decided that the only way to gain control and impose law and order over a seething mass of just-freed slaves was to say it was the will of god (otherwise it begs the question, who are you to tell us what to do?) well... I'd say god told me to say it, too.
In his defense, he was TOTALLY high at the time man. Whoah, check out that BUSH over there!

[xxMatolfxx]

Fictional characters cannot imbibe real mind-altering substances.

Just FYI.
Damn it, Yoda you let me down once again!

[Bookwyrm]

I'm pretty sure that mind-altering drugs were not part of the normal worship practices of the Israelites, since I can't think of anything in Leviticus (the book detailing law and how exactly to worship God) that might be construed as such.

I fully admit I could be wrong; I've never set out to read every word in the Bible and ponder the meaning of "is" as used in each chapter and verse. Plus the Bible is often pretty vague on some things. For example, in several places it refers to "wine and strong drink," which makes some people think of beer, but it never tells us.

You can believe whatever you want, of course. Just remember that without any direct evidence, you're making a faith statement just as much as any of the Christians who say "No! Moses never got high! You're a heretic!" in the same tone a kid might protest that Santa Claus does exist and there really is a Tooth Fairy.

By the way, Black Rose: If you're thinking of the study of the ten plagues that I think you are, there are a few holes with it. The study is critiqued in Stanley Jaki's The Bible and Science. I can quote from it if you (or anyone else) is interested.

[Kaden]

You always have such a way with words when you speak religion. It's something I definitely respect about you. :D

(bookwyrm is a real life friend of mine)

[Bookwyrm]

You always have such a way with words when you speak religion. It's something I definitely respect about you. :D

(bookwyrm is a real life friend of mine)

Well, I have made a bit of a study of the subject, after all.

And careful, you'll drag your reputation down. ;)

[J.L.R.]

While the Bible may not be a tell all about the every day events of people's lives and religious practices of the Ancient Jews (it is pretty damn close though), archeology is. The Bible, although vaguely, mentions several uses of various herbs, and we know at the time of Christ, drugs like opium, as well as marajuana were used for medicinial purpuses, such as pain killers. In fact archeology has shown that even as far back as 2000 to 3000 years ago, physicians were performing very complex surgeries, with positive results.

HOWEVER, there isn't any evidence archeologically or religiously to support the claim made by the skeptic. In short there isn't any evidence to support that early Jews used mind altering drugs to seduce visions. Jews, as well as Judiasm, have remained very strict to their laws, and are even carry much more strick laws when it comes to reprinting their religious texts. Mind-altering drugs would have been a no-no.

The reality is, the story of Moses, like many other Old Testament books of the Bible, were passed down for centuries by mouth, before they were written down. Dramatization is probably key, but that doesn't mean the events didn't happen at all, or were completely made up, as some skeptics would argue.

It isn't any miracle to see a burning bush, and we do know that there are even some plants of which have a natural fire retardent in their bark. It is completely plausible that he did see what he saw, whether he really talked to God, or not is a matter of faith, and can not be proven yeah or ney.

Then again, it is also plausible that A. There is actually a God, and B. He did talk to Moses. But I guess that would be too hard to believe now wouldn't it. :P

[Bookwyrm]

While the Bible may not be a tell all about the every day events of people's lives and religious practices of the Ancient Jews (it is pretty damn close though), archeology is. The Bible, although vaguely, mentions several uses of various herbs, and we know at the time of Christ, drugs like opium, as well as marajuana were used for medicinial purpuses, such as pain killers. In fact archeology has shown that even as far back as 2000 to 3000 years ago, physicians were performing very complex surgeries, with positive results.

HOWEVER, there isn't any evidence archeologically or religiously to support the claim made by the skeptic. In short there isn't any evidence to support that early Jews used mind altering drugs to seduce visions. Jews, as well as Judiasm, have remained very strict to their laws, and are even carry much more strick laws when it comes to reprinting their religious texts. Mind-altering drugs would have been a no-no.

The reality is, the story of Moses, like many other Old Testament books of the Bible, were passed down for centuries by mouth, before they were written down. Dramatization is probably key, but that doesn't mean the events didn't happen at all, or were completely made up, as some skeptics would argue.

It isn't any miracle to see a burning bush, and we do know that there are even some plants of which have a natural fire retardent in their bark. It is completely plausible that he did see what he saw, whether he really talked to God, or not is a matter of faith, and can not be proven yeah or ney.

Then again, it is also plausible that A. There is actually a God, and B. He did talk to Moses. But I guess that would be too hard to believe now wouldn't it. :P

First, I believe you mean "induce visions." "Seduce" means something very different. :p

I'm actually going to ask a biblical expert I know about the drug question, because I'm curious what herbs the Bible actually mentions (both on the off chance that I was wrong and something stronger than normal incense was used, and about medicinal purposes of various herbs). I'll get back to you all on that when I get an answer.

Second, while the story of Genesis was word of mouth for however long it took to write it down, the story of Moses was written down during the Exodus from Egypt. Perhaps not in its current dramatic form, but at the very least the notes and storyboard. We are told Moses was the author of the first five books of the Bible, but in my personal, non-expert opinion I think it's far more likely he dictated certain things that were then adapted by Israelite scribes who had worked for the Egyptians. (Although the dry-as-crackers aspect of Deuteronomy, Numbers, and Leviticus are probably not beyond the word-for-word dictation of an uneducated shepherd who, we are told, had a problem with public speaking.)

I've heard one scholar lecture on the subject of Moses weaving together various stories to create Genesis to give the various peoples that only later became the Israelites a common background. However, while it's an interesting possibility, it doesn't hold logical water. We already know that the Israelites were one people in multiple tribes; they were not the only slaves that the Egyptians held, and the Egyptians themselves treated them as one people. Second, if the stories were from different peoples, they would not be accepted by the whole; just witness how hard it was for first the Greeks and then the Romans to unify religions and myths. People naturally balk at that sort of thing, because it threatens their identity.

Third, while it's certainly no strange thing to see a burning bush, the reason Moses went over there rather than carefully herding his flock away from a possible wildfire was that he saw the bush was not consumed. Was it literally on fire? I read a study on the idea that a natural gas pocket got accidentally lit, but that was a really strange study in the first place. Personally, if it happened, I think it wasn't literally fire, but rather a precursor of the transfiguration described in the New Testament. But that gets into more theology than I doubt people here are interested in. :D

[Bookwyrm]

I spoke with the theological expert I mentioned today. He said he couldn't think of anything off the top of his head that could be construed as religious (or otherwise) drug use in the Old Testament. The Israelites were well aware of medicinal properties of various herbs, and plenty of additives to incense were used, but nothing psychotropic.

Additionally, he pointed out the strong condemnation the Israelites gave to orgiastic rituals in other religions. They made such an effort to set themselves apart from such practices through dietary laws and religious observances that the idea they would use them as part of ritual is hard to believe.

In our conversation, the comparison of Old Testament visions with Greek and Middle Eastern drug-induced visions was brought up, and the point was made that Old Testament prophecies and divine commands were a lot clearer than at places such as the Oracle of Delphi. God might not speak as clearly as the Israelites wanted him to, but they never had to interpret prophecies like they were riddles.

[jordanhitler]

I need to comment on everything here.

Why is this news to anyone? Am I really the only one who knew that people either in the bible, or people who wrote it where on drigs?

[Vendetta]

You can believe whatever you want, of course. Just remember that without any direct evidence, you're making a faith statement just as much as any of the Christians who say "No! Moses never got high! You're a heretic!" in the same tone a kid might protest that Santa Claus does exist and there really is a Tooth Fairy.
Actually no, this really isn't the same thing. Drawing conclusions from indirect or supporting evidence I'm pretty sure is LESS based on faith than "a burning bush told me so" (and also fits reality, without having to rely on a bugaboo in the sky as "proof".) Also, the researcher in question addresses this in the article itself.

[Kaden]

I need to comment on everything here.

Why is this news to anyone? Am I really the only one who knew that people either in the bible, or people who wrote it where on drigs?

Hey hitler, can you say anything on here without pissing people off? Seriously, you come in here and start shooting off comments without saying anything intelligent. All you post was some stupid, insulting comment. But nothing that actually contributes to the thread. I've noticed you have a tendency to do that.

Do me a big favor and shut the fuck up. Thank you.

[UNODRAGONE]

Actually no, this really isn't the same thing. Drawing conclusions from indirect or supporting evidence I'm pretty sure is LESS based on faith than "a burning bush told me so" (and also fits reality, without having to rely on a bugaboo in the sky as "proof".) Also, the researcher in question addresses this in the article itself.

I think it is in a sense a faith statement but can also be looked at as
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory
or
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypothesis

[Vendetta]

I think it is in a sense a faith statement but can also be looked at as
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory
or
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypothesis
God isn't a theory or a hypothesis, is he? So yeah, not the same thing.

Also, religion uses their imaginary "God" as the END of the argument, science uses theorized data (like 'dark matter') as the BEGINNING of it's process.

Let's try a hypothetical. Take a person who has NO grounding in religion, but is reasonably educated. Now ask them which is more plausible: that a burning plant TALKED to them (which has no basis in fact or reason at all) or that a man imagined/hallucinated a burning plant talking to him, given that natural hallucingens were readily available, and may have been ingested (even unintentionally.)

[jordanhitler]

Moses was high on drugs: Israeli researcher (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080304/od_afp/israelreligionoffbea t;_ylt=Ai65SbtYwEJ4A iPb4rYTVSuek3QF)

Tue Mar 4, 7:02 AM ET

JERUSALEM (AFP) - High on Mount Sinai, Moses was on psychedelic drugs when he heard God deliver the Ten Commandments, an Israeli researcher claimed in a study published this week.


Such mind-altering substances formed an integral part of the religious rites of Israelites in biblical times, Benny Shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem wrote in the Time and Mind journal of philosophy.

"As far Moses on Mount Sinai is concerned, it was either a supernatural cosmic event, which I don't believe, or a legend, which I don't believe either, or finally, and this is very probable, an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics," Shanon told Israeli public radio on Tuesday.

Moses was probably also on drugs when he saw the "burning bush," suggested Shanon, who said he himself has dabbled with such substances.

"The Bible says people see sounds, and that is a clasic phenomenon," he said citing the example of religious ceremonies in the Amazon in which drugs are used that induce people to "see music."

He mentioned his own experience when he used ayahuasca, a powerful psychotropic plant, during a religious ceremony in Brazil's Amazon forest in 1991. "I experienced visions that had spiritual-religious connotations," Shanon said.

He said the psychedelic effects of ayahuasca were comparable to those produced by concoctions based on bark of the acacia tree, that is frequently mentioned in the Bible.


Personally I don't think it would really matter Whether he actually was on drugs, or wasn't.

If he was on drugs, people of that time didn't know how to explain the effects of these drugs, so then such psychadelic effects must deem the drugs "holy" or "sacred".

If its the case that he wasn't on drugs, then it could have been some other atmospheric phenomena that appeared different or strange in nature. Its understandable to a degree. Think about it, if your entire universe (figuratively speaking) is inside this flat little earth, and something falls from the sky, this must certainly be a unique and astounding experience, one might even say "holy".

Either way, I don't really think this is going to change much, even if we had solid evidence that moses was on drugs, people are still going to be Christians.

On the plus side this is going to give non-christians more material to throw at christians. Although I think the 'drugs' thing is already being used.