Iraq war: Dealing with the 'worst kind of pain'

[UNODRAGONE]

it's crazy for me thinking back on this anniversary date of all my platoon brothers who went out there and those who are still with me, people may not agree with why we went there or what we are doing but we serve this country proudly for our freedom and our families regardless of what the political end of it is, I can't imagine a better definition of a hero then a solider. I bolded the parts that especially touched me

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/18/iraq.war.irpt/index.html#cnnSTCTex t



(CNN) -- She'll never forget the day her 17-year-old son, John, asked her permission to enlist in the U.S. military. "Mom, I owe this to my country."


Samantha Schroeder of Chester, Maryland, worries about her 19-year-old son, John, who is deploying to Iraq.

1 of 3 Now, at age 19, her son is a Marine preparing to deploy to Iraq.

"He doesn't care if you do or don't understand his choice; he isn't concerned with political views, religion or race. His greatest concern is doing the job he is asked to do with skill and pride, protecting those abroad and at home and standing up to the standards he has set for himself," Samantha Schroeder said.

iReporters shared an array of stories about how the Iraq war has affected them over the past five years.

One man said he met his wife, a fellow service member, while serving in Iraq. Others described the pain of having fathers so far away, especially when new children are born. Some military wives said they often keep their true feelings to themselves, fearing that they would affect their husbands' morale in the field.

Below are a selection of responses from iReporters, some of which have been edited for length and clarity.



Angela Fritz of Fort Hood, Texas
"Having [my husband] gone is the worst kind of pain. It is the burden I chose to bear but am not happy to. On the outside, I have to stand strong. I have to support my country and my husband, regardless of what I feel. That is the Army way. I am so proud of him for having the courage to step up and serve his country. On the inside, I am angry and worn thin. Of course, I want my husband home, but it's so much more than that now."

Samantha Schroeder of Chester, Maryland
"I am the mother of a 19-year-old Marine. He joined while still in his senior year. When he came to me to sign his enlistment papers, I was hesitant. No, I was downright, 'Not in a million years.' He was only 17. How could I give him permission? Just wait, I asked, and think about it some more. He looked at me with a mixture of fear in thinking I might not sign and anger in knowing I didn't understand. And what he said next has stuck in my head through all his training, and now he leaves in a week for Iraq. He told me, 'Mom, I owe this to my country.' ...

"Now, as he prepares for Iraq deployment, I am a little better prepared for what the future holds mentally. But to me, he and most of the men who will accompany him are so young. They still seem like boys to me, but I know they are men. Willing to serve their country. I remember 9/11 like it was yesterday, and I also remember the fear that was on that seventh-grader's face when he was bused home early that day and watched the events unfold on the TV. And now he stands as a Marine, willing to sacrifice his everyday freedoms to assure we are safe here at home."

Katherine Shigekane of Virginia Beach, Virginia
"The Iraq war has changed our lives in many ways. My husband has been serving in the Navy for 16 years, and since March 2003, he has been on four different deployments. Our lives have been affected in many ways. Our wedding plans were changed due to the invasion. He missed most of my first pregnancy. He was able to be home for the birth of our twins but left again when they were a year old and was gone until after their second birthday. He is now gone again. ... As a family I think we have learned to appreciate the time we do spend together."

joshM
"While serving in Iraq with the United States Marines, I met my wife. She is in the United States Army. We met while on R&R in Qatar. We did long distance for the remaining time that we had left of our deployment and then another year while I was still stationed in Cherry Point, North Carolina. She is still stationed at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. After I separated from the Marines as a corporal, I moved to Kentucky to be with her. We are now happily married, and she is on her third tour to Iraq. So even though the news shows all the bad things of war, some good really does come from it."

"I am a soldier in the U.S. Army. I am a 20-year-old combat veteran. I returned home this past summer and enrolled in college with hopes of going to law school. Unfortunately, with future deployments likely to postpone my schooling, I will be in college long past traditional college years. That is just a minor nuisance compared with the fact that relating to my family and friends is infinitely more difficult since I've returned. I find myself zoning out and going back to the war during family functions and when I'm out with my friends, I apparently talk in my sleep about the war and occasionally sleepwalk."

Sierra Derrick of Waymart, Pennsylvania
"This is the second time my husband is deploying to Iraq, and trust me, it only gets harder!! The first time, I was 17 years old, two months pregnant and a brand-new bride. (We got married literally the day before he left.) Now, exactly four years later, we are in the same situation, although things are a little different. Together we have two amazingly beautiful little boys, Connor and Carson, ages 3 and 1. Needless to say, he is their hero as well as mine.

"The impact that this war has had on our family has been extraordinary. We are so incredibly proud of him in ways that civilian families couldn't comprehend. We have been brought closer because of these deployments, and the support we have is absolutely phenomenal.

"In that sense, I believe it has been worth it." E-mail to a friend

[jordanhitler]

We all go through life, trying to get a job, get money, get a car, get some place to live, try to find someoen to share our life with and its tough. It's all tough. People have the courage to go on and take responsibility for themselves.

Then I can only imagine what kind of person you are, to put all of those self-needs behind you, and serve the needs of others.

What kind of person are you once you go through that? Once you live every day, wondering if somethings going to happen. How many people can say they've had to take aim at another human being, to kill another human being, to hold your best friend, your family, in your arms as they die? How many people have gone through all that, and somehow manage to be alive, and sane this day?

They fight, they kill, they die for you. Even if you don't belive in what they're fighting for, they're dieing for you. My god what greater of a man can their be than one who sacrifices everything, who would throw away the most precouse thing he has, his own life for another?

I believe that the greatest kind of person in this world is one who will do good for others, even if it means suffering for themselves. A soldier is the greatest hero there is in this world today.

I, as an American citizen, and as a free human being, thank you with all of my heart for all that you have done, I am forever in your debt. Thank you so much for all you have done for this country, for me.

[Vendetta]

iReporters shared an array of stories about how the Iraq war has affected them over the past five years.
Maybe iReporter should've shared the stories about all the marriages that break up or wives who cheat, or men who come back from deployment with such severe mental problems they can't function in normal society.

Also, I'd say serving in the military doesn't make you a hero. All that takes is passing a basic test and signing on the dotted line. A hero is defined by their actions, not a piece of paper that says they've enlisted in the military.

I have a lot more respect for the spouses, girlfriends, and boyfriends of servicemen and women, who stick by their SOs. The people who wait 4 months or more on end, only to have their loved-ones redeployed after scant weeks back home.

people may not agree with why we went there or what we are doing but we serve this country proudly for our freedom and our families regardless of what the political end of it is
Except that people wouldn't be dying or coming back mutilated and mentally scarred, if we WEREN'T at "war", so yeah, it's still a debate worth having.

[Teuful Hunden]

Maybe iReporter should've shared the stories about all the marriages that break up or wives who cheat, or men who come back from deployment with such severe mental problems they can't function in normal society.

Also, I'd say serving in the military doesn't make you a hero. All that takes is passing a basic test and signing on the dotted line. A hero is defined by their actions, not a piece of paper that says they've enlisted in the military.

I have a lot more respect for the spouses, girlfriends, and boyfriends of servicemen and women, who stick by their SOs. The people who wait 4 months or more on end, only to have their loved-ones redeployed after scant weeks back home.


Except that people wouldn't be dying or coming back mutilated and mentally scarred, if we WEREN'T at "war", so yeah, it's still a debate worth having.

Vendetta your right, but you shouldn't dismiss what we do as easily as it seems you do.I know people who have been over there and have come back with those severe mental problems. And alot of them don't blame the military or even the President for it. We went to war for a good reason to protect our citizens from harm. Why we have stayed over there may be different. It's not the war that's the problem its the amount of restraint we have to have when we're over there because of the politics that put us there. I know no one here will listen to what any of us who actually beleive in what we do have to say, because everyone has their own opinion and has to be right. But at least look at the people who actually know what's going on over there have to say. We are the ones fighting and putting our lives on the line. We are the ones who decided to do this for you so you have the right to protest what we do.

[LV426]

Vendetta your right, but you shouldn't dismiss what we do as easily as it seems you do.I know people who have been over there and have come back with those severe mental problems. And alot of them don't blame the military or even the President for it. We went to war for a good reason to protect our citizens from harm. Why we have stayed over there may be different. It's not the war that's the problem its the amount of restraint we have to have when we're over there because of the politics that put us there. I know no one here will listen to what any of us who actually beleive in what we do have to say, because everyone has their own opinion and has to be right. But at least look at the people who actually know what's going on over there have to say. We are the ones fighting and putting our lives on the line. We are the ones who decided to do this for you so you have the right to protest what we do.

Sorry but I'm not buying that Bush propaganda that we went to war to protect the American people. We went to war over lies and GW's desire to avenge his daddy. If the war came to home soil and threatened me directly you can be damn sure I would stand up and fight. But hauling U.S. citizens over to another country to fight and die over maybes and possiblys just isn't my idea of patriotism.

[UNODRAGONE]

Sorry but I'm not buying that Bush propaganda that we went to war to protect the American people. We went to war over lies and GW's desire to avenge his daddy. If the war came to home soil and threatened me directly you can be damn sure I would stand up and fight. But hauling U.S. citizens over to another country to fight and die over maybes and possiblys just isn't my idea of patriotism.

you have the right to believe what you want and I respect your opinion, but that doesn't change the fact that those of us who have been in the military or are in it now know whats really going on. Everything is a conspiracy theory and every theory has plausable evidence, but me personally, I would be more open to someone who is directly in it than what the wonderful :rolleyes: media has to say

[saintnomore]

I agree with both of you. I don't think we should have stayed over there as long as we have and i don't support bush. But he's only human and we all have flaws. The one thing i do believe in firmly is that we should respect the choices of our soldiers and give them our support. It doesn't matter if your for or against war, just support those over there.

[Vendetta]

you have the right to believe what you want and I respect your opinion, but that doesn't change the fact that those of us who have been in the military or are in it now know whats really going on.
What IS really going on? The only reality most active service members have to deal with overseas, is staying alive another day. They are NOT aware generally (unless they are pretty high up the chain of command) of the larger picture of what's REALLY going on.

Also, everything I say comes from having SERVED in the military (at the tail end of the first Gulf War,) and having friends who are currently serving overseas. And I can tell you, not all our men and women in uniform are deserving of respect. Some of them, just like civilians, are jerks or down-right bastards, and aren't generally particularly nice people. Again, wearing a uniform doesn't make you a hero... your ACTIONS do. And I don't think pointing a gun at innocents or carpet bombing cities qualifies as heroic actions.

It doesn't matter if your for or against war, just support those over there.
Man, I haven't heard ANYONE here NOT supporting our troops. I hate when people use this as a counter argument against people who are against the war. Speaking for myself, I am against the war BECAUSE I support our troops and want them out of harms way, especially when they were put there needlessly in the FIRST PLACE.

[Sabor_X]

All I can do is think about what would have happened if we didn't go there. What if they came here? People die over there everyday, women, children, soldiers, just people. If they had the chance to get here, bombs would be going off in our cities, killing our people. Can you imagine living in fear of the car next to you blowing up? Watching every airplane as if it could drop a bomb on you that second. I thank all soldiers, for keeping up safe here. I feel terribly sorry for the people really affected by this war, and the people that live in the areas under threats. But I think I can safely say... I'm glad it's not here.

[Vendetta]

All I can do is think about what would have happened if we didn't go there. What if they came here? People die over there everyday, women, children, soldiers, just people. If they had the chance to get here, bombs would be going off in our cities, killing our people. Can you imagine living in fear of the car next to you blowing up? Watching every airplane as if it could drop a bomb on you that second. I thank all soldiers, for keeping up safe here. I feel terribly sorry for the people really affected by this war, and the people that live in the areas under threats. But I think I can safely say... I'm glad it's not here.
What makes you think they would come here?

[Sabor_X]

There was no avoiding it. It was going to be somewhere.

[Vendetta]

There was no avoiding it. It was going to be somewhere.
WHY do you say that? You DO realize the US is a nuclear superpower right? No legitimate country would dare to invade us, as we would most likely nuke them back to the stone-age. Terrorist attacks, sure, but then, those happen all OVER the world, we're not special in that regard.

Also, do you actually understand why we're even IN Iraq to begin with? I mean do you know what the administration's reasons were?

EDIT: Also, by your logic of "it was GOING to happen anyway", I guess you'd be fine with someone killing you tommorrow, because I mean, after all, you were going to die eventually ANYWAY.

[Sabor_X]

Yeah, I do.

But that's the past, nothing you or I can do about it.

And why wouldn't people invade us? We're so vulnerable. We may have to technology, but not the guts or the smarts to use it properly...

Maybe it'll be different when the elections are over... maybe It'll get worse... I'm too young to vote or do anything to do with politics. Oh well.

That's just my opinion


EDIT: My my aren't you a charmer

[Vendetta]

Yeah, I do.

But that's the past, nothing you or I can do about it.
Translation: "I don't understand ANYTHING about the war, since I was TEN when it started. So I'll just pretend we shouldn't talk about it."

And why wouldn't people invade us? We're so vulnerable. We may have to technology, but not the guts or the smarts to use it properly...
We're vulnerable to a few individuals getting in and ramming some planes into building. We are NOT vulnerable to invasion. Seriously, you might want to have at least a rudimentary understanding of how US national defense operates.

EDIT: My my aren't you a charmer
Well you seem to paint things in these broad childish crayon-strokes, so I thought I'd do the same for you. Also, I was pointing out the flaw in YOUR logic.

[Sabor_X]

hahaha :D

Well you see
I'm in school
And for 3 years we've studied the war in Iraq
So yeah, I know all about it, I've lost people to it just like others
So if you want to talk about so I can prove to you that I DO know what I'm talking about, let's go.

I know how our security is, I know how strong we are at some points and how patheticaly weak we are at others.

And what's funny is, my 'childish logic' is getting you all worked up. If I'm a child, do what adults do, prove me wrong with one word then leave me alone and I'll do the same for you :D

[LV426]

So you honestly think that Iraq can invade the U.S. and start a war without any problems? For one they don't have a reliable air force or navy so how are they going to get here? Second when they get here how are they going to land without all of our aircraft carriers, jets, and weapons blowing them into dust? Not to mention we could air strikes on them before they even hit land. Saying that they do hit land though, we do have troops, national guard, coast guard, and state and local law enforcement that can be notified and strategically deployed to stave off any invasion, not to mention the citizens living in the invasion zones who have their own armament.

You act like this is a completely defenseless and weaponless country just sitting there waiting to be invaded. Hell our regular citizens have more weapons in their kitchen than most 3rd world countries have in their government armory.

Sure there are weaknesses and yes it is easier to sneak in a few people at a time such as the case with terrorist and suicide bombers, but an all out invasion isn't going to go unnoticed nor unchecked.

[MorganaFang]

Well you see
I'm in school
And for 3 years we've studied the war in Iraq
So yeah, I know all about it, I've lost people to it just like others


Unless you have been over there, babes, you really do not know all about it. Hell I do not, really. Schools and media tend to take a different spin on things. Like when I was in school, the teachers held firm that there WERE weapons of mass destruction and all of this was connected to 9-11. Your learnings may be different, but I doubt they are presenting you will all the facts.

[Sabor_X]

Morgana's right, and yes LV I know we're not ENTIRELY defenseless. But, sadly, there always will be war. Here, there, anywhere else in the world. Even sadder, We will always be involved in one. We can't seem to let people solve their own problems...

[Vendetta]

Morgana's right, and yes LV I know we're not ENTIRELY defenseless. But, sadly, there always will be war. Here, there, anywhere else in the world. Even sadder, We will always be involved in one. We can't seem to let people solve their own problems...
Do you KNOW when the last war was that occurred on US soil? Yeah, you know WHY?

Also, don't flatter yourself, you're not getting me worked up. You're just showing me what an absolute failure our education system is.

[Sazabi]

Yeah, I do.

And why wouldn't people invade us? We're so vulnerable. We may have to technology, but not the guts or the smarts to use it properly...


Yeah dude, it's totally feasible to invade a nation with nuclear warheads out the ass, technology no one can rival, multiple supercarrier fleets, and the most highly armed citizenry on earth. I'm amazed it hasn't happened yet!

How exactly are you proposing a country invades the US? We have two oceans protecting us, and no country even comes close to having a navy that could defeat even one of our supercarrier fleets (slight gaffes, like with the song class submarine recently notwithstanding)

Maybe Canada or Mexico will wage a land war? Please, thats like the most goddamn ridiculous thing i've read all week, and I just got out of a discussion with someone who believed that humanity wiped out the dingo because of our fear of it.

I'm not suggesting we're invincible, but no one is fucking stupid enough to attempt an invasion of the US, China, or any other superpower with nukes. MAD lives on.

[Sabor_X]

I want to say a few things...

1: If we're sooooo good with our nukes and crap. Why haven't we used them yet. You know why? Because the second one of ours hits anyone else, everyone else with a nuke will sent them flying up our ass. Our world is not big enough for a nucleur war!! 2 hits and America's gone. 15 and say goodbye to China. Do you seriously think we're the only one's with nukes?

2: You don't think we can be invaded? It's happening already. We're letting anyone into our country. They could look us in the eye, obviously a Muslim Irani, but if they held up a college degree in our face, they'd get in with no hesitaion. Have you noticed, we're educating people who go back to their countries and share their knowlege with our enemies. Did you know the man who planned and thought out every little detail of Pearl Harbor was a graduate from one of OUR top colleges. If we were so secure, we would've stopped immagrents long ago. But we can't do that can we? We'd run out of money. Everyone knows America can't provide for itself. I know this probebly won't happen, but if we went to war against China (other than getting blown off the face of the earth) we'd run out of...everything

[Sazabi]

I want to say a few things...

1: If we're sooooo good with our nukes and crap. Why haven't we used them yet. You know why? Because the second one of ours hits anyone else, everyone else with a nuke will sent them flying up our ass. Our world is not big enough for a nucleur war!! 2 hits and America's gone. 15 and say goodbye to China. Do you seriously think we're the only one's with nukes?

Very very very few countries have ICBMs capable of delivering a nuclear warhead, genius. The reason we don't use them because we haven't been in a full scale total war since WW2. We don't firebomb cities either. We have no reason to nuke anyone because no one poses a threat to us except other nuclear nations. And ICBM/nuke capable nations don't go to war with each other. The cold war is the closest we ever came, and if the cold war happened, we (and russia) would have used nukes without a second thought. Thats probably the biggest reason we never came to blows.

and no, everyone on earth doesnt launch warheads at everyone else the second one flies. Been watching too much terminator 3?

2: You don't think we can be invaded? It's happening already. We're letting anyone into our country. They could look us in the eye, obviously a Muslim Irani, but if they held up a college degree in our face, they'd get in with no hesitaion.

You consider foreign education seekers to be an invasion force? lawl. My sister just invaded France I guess.

PS: we're not at war with Arabs or Islam, you racist fuck.

Have you noticed, we're educating people who go back to their countries and share their knowlege with our enemies.

Knowledge alone can't make a country a superpower, and we aren't teaching the secrets of atomic weaponry on campus. No one is going back home to Abu-Iranistan with secrets of the F-22.

If we were so secure, we would've stopped immagrents long ago.

America doesn't want to get rid of immigrants, they provide the exploitable underclass that keeps our shit cheap ^_^. Its been this way since forever.

[LV426]

I want to say a few things...

1: If we're sooooo good with our nukes and crap. Why haven't we used them yet. You know why? Because the second one of ours hits anyone else, everyone else with a nuke will sent them flying up our ass. Our world is not big enough for a nucleur war!! 2 hits and America's gone. 15 and say goodbye to China. Do you seriously think we're the only one's with nukes?

2: You don't think we can be invaded? It's happening already. We're letting anyone into our country. They could look us in the eye, obviously a Muslim Irani, but if they held up a college degree in our face, they'd get in with no hesitaion. Have you noticed, we're educating people who go back to their countries and share their knowlege with our enemies. Did you know the man who planned and thought out every little detail of Pearl Harbor was a graduate from one of OUR top colleges. If we were so secure, we would've stopped immagrents long ago. But we can't do that can we? We'd run out of money. Everyone knows America can't provide for itself. I know this probebly won't happen, but if we went to war against China (other than getting blown off the face of the earth) we'd run out of...everything

We don't need to use them, just having them is a great enough threat that people don't invade our country to try and start a war on our home turf.

OK obviously you haven't been in school long enough because you have yet to master the English language.

Now I admit that there are loop holes that allow people from other countries into ours but not entire nations. You are talking about one at a time letting people in. As for education, so we educate some people who go back and decide to wage war on us. Again, this is a negligible amount of people. The only reason that Pearl Harbor was even attempted was because of the close proximity to Japanese forces and the military power that was sitting there as a threat. Still you will notice that Japan didn't win that one, we did. There's was a sneak attack at dawn. Ours was a full on retaliation. I'm pretty sure if you go back to your history books you will realize who inflicted the greater damage on that one.

I'd also like to know why you don't think America can provide for itself. The economy of the United States has been the world's largest national economy since the early 1870s. Not only that but as much as one third of all grain produced in the U.S. moves into export. We also significantly export nuclear reactors and farm equipment. So I'm not sure where you are getting this information that the U.S. can't support itself. Cutting off immigrants would not cut off our money supply either. Immigrants don't really make us money, especially if they take jobs here and send the money back to their home countries.

And just for your information, while we do get a majority of things from China it's basically because they provide cheap labor and materials. If it came down to it and we stopped buying or using the Chinese it might cause some financial hardships, and people wouldn't have the majority of the crap they have now but it wouldn't collapse the whole country.

[Sabor_X]

You know what, fine, go ahead, think you've won. When you've got bombs blowing up in your faces, tell it to me then, alright?

I am not racist. That entire AREA is against us right now. So I picked one specific group, big deal.


Oh and thank you Mr. Perfect! Aren't we all so glad we can have a genius like you to correct all our typos! I'm sorry but some of us don't go back and check every little detail we put. We have lives.





Has anyone else noticed this isn't even about the war anymore? Thanks guys, for putting so much time in effort into proving me wrong. Which, by the way, you still haven't done.

~Goodnight :D

[Sazabi]

You know what, fine, go ahead, think you've won. When you've got bombs blowing up in your faces, tell it to me then, alright?


hahahah sure, ok. When the first bomb is dropped on America, I'll fucking wire you a weeks wages and a "you were right :( " note. It ain't going to happen in anything but ARFCOM! masturbatory fantasies and Tom Clancy novels.

I am not racist. That entire AREA is against us right now. So I picked one specific group, big deal.

No it isn't, you fucking retard.

Which, by the way, you still haven't done.

Sure we have, because the burden of proof is on you, not us. We win by default until you can fulfill the burden of proof. Which you're incapable of even coming close to being abl- OH MY FUCKING GOD AN IRANIAN MUSLIM IS TAKING A ENGLISH 101 CLASS, RUN AWAY SABOR BEFORE HE GETS YOU!

[Sabor_X]

Still not about the war.
Still about proving little 15-year-old Sabie wrong.
:D


Oh and uhm...I was wondering how it is you're typing so well...seeing as you're BLIND :D

g'night!

[Sazabi]

Sweet dreams, try not to have any night terrors about degree seeking Arabs invading the U.S.

[Vendetta]

Still not about the war.
Still about proving little 15-year-old Sabie wrong.
Dude, are you seriously having a problem reading these threads. No one HAS to prove you wrong. YOU have to prove that you're right. And I got to tell you, so far you haven't done shit to prove anything. So yeah, well done there slick.

[UNODRAGONE]

the pissing war is mute since niether side will give in or one side won't admit defeat. Does anyone on here have family over there or has returned? Two of my cousins are there now and one just came back and got medical discharge, he was shot in the chest and his lung collapsed, luckily they got to him in time. If they didn't discharge him he said he would go right back.

[Sabor_X]

My friend's father was killed in a car bombing
My 19 year old fried was shot multiple times
My uncle is there now

yeah I know what war does...

[UNODRAGONE]

My friend's father was killed in a car bombing
My 19 year old fried was shot multiple times
My uncle is there now

yeah I know what war does...


have they talked to you about it or their feelings on it?

[Sabor_X]

here's a quote from my uncle

"I don't want to go back to America. Seeing these people living like this and being able to help them, it's amazing. And I'm not going back until I've finished what I've started."

He said a lot of the soldiers don't want to be pulled out. They want to stay and help as much as they can.

[UNODRAGONE]

here's a quote from my uncle

"I don't want to go back to America. Seeing these people living like this and being able to help them, it's amazing. And I'm not going back until I've finished what I've started."

He said a lot of the soldiers don't want to be pulled out. They want to stay and help as much as they can.

I've heard the same thing

[Fenrar]

If a Man or Woman decides that they want to join the Army and go fight for their Country, it's worrying yet slightly heart-warming.

When that same young person comes back in a bodybag, it's devastating. But it's their choice. No one has to prevent us from doing what we want, unless it's something against the law.

It's a difficult issue. Technically, the Iraq War is no longer a war, more an occupation. A very bloody occupation. It pisses me off that this situation is such a moral conudrum. If the Soldiers pull out, Chaos will arise and Iraq won't stabilise for decades. But staying in there, it just brings more and more body bags home.

Thank whoever's-up-there that the British are pulling out.

[LV426]

the pissing war is mute since niether side will give in or one side won't admit defeat. Does anyone on here have family over there or has returned? Two of my cousins are there now and one just came back and got medical discharge, he was shot in the chest and his lung collapsed, luckily they got to him in time. If they didn't discharge him he said he would go right back.

Goddamnit Uno it's not "mute" it's "moot"! Mute means silenced or unable to speak. Moot means open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful: a moot point.

2.of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic.
3.Chiefly Law. not actual; theoretical; hypothetical.

Would you please stop using the word "MUTE"!

Ok now on to war stuff, here's an interesting little tidbit.

Last week the Pentagon was forced to release a report conducted over the last five years that concluded, after surveying 600,000 official Iraqi documents captured by U.S. forces, that there is "no smoking gun" establishing any connection whatsoever between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeia.

The report was so embarrassing that we taxpayers were not going to be told of its existence, even though the explosive conclusions were declassified, until ABC News forced the administration to post it on the Joint Forces Command Website. The network reported that the Pentagon had canceled plans to issue a press release on the report or make it available by e-mail or online because, as one Pentagon official put it, the study is "too politically sensitive."

[UNODRAGONE]

Goddamnit Uno it's not "mute" it's "moot"! Mute means silenced or unable to speak. Moot means open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful: a moot point.

2.of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic.
3.Chiefly Law. not actual; theoretical; hypothetical.

Would you please stop using the word "MUTE"!

Ok now on to war stuff, here's an interesting little tidbit.

Last week the Pentagon was forced to release a report conducted over the last five years that concluded, after surveying 600,000 official Iraqi documents captured by U.S. forces, that there is "no smoking gun" establishing any connection whatsoever between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeia.

The report was so embarrassing that we taxpayers were not going to be told of its existence, even though the explosive conclusions were declassified, until ABC News forced the administration to post it on the Joint Forces Command Website. The network reported that the Pentagon had canceled plans to issue a press release on the report or make it available by e-mail or online because, as one Pentagon official put it, the study is "too politically sensitive."

seeing as how you insist on eating me when your the werewolf....I think I'll comtinue to annoy you with MUTE :) in any case, can you provide a link to this information?

[LV426]

seeing as how you insist on eating me when your the werewolf....I think I'll comtinue to annoy you with MUTE :) in any case, can you provide a link to this information?

The fucking DICTIONARY!

[UNODRAGONE]

The fucking DICTIONARY!

I said INFORMATION not the freaking word!! Here let me remind you of what you posted

Last week the Pentagon was forced to release a report conducted over the last five years that concluded, after surveying 600,000 official Iraqi documents captured by U.S. forces, that there is "no smoking gun" establishing any connection whatsoever between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeia.

The report was so embarrassing that we taxpayers were not going to be told of its existence, even though the explosive conclusions were declassified, until ABC News forced the administration to post it on the Joint Forces Command Website. The network reported that the Pentagon had canceled plans to issue a press release on the report or make it available by e-mail or online because, as one Pentagon official put it, the study is "too politically sensitive."

now to say it in simple terms...do you have the link to this information that you can provide?

[Vendetta]

now to say it in simple terms...do you have the link to this information that you can provide?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/13/alqaeda.saddam/

To say it in simple terms... FIRST PAGE on Google. :rolleyes:

[jordanhitler]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/13/alqaeda.saddam/

To say it in simple terms... FIRST PAGE on Google. :rolleyes:

This article does however, say that there was evidence linking saddam to outside terrorist activity, none the less...

[Vendetta]

This article does however, say that there was evidence linking saddam to outside terrorist activity, none the less...
Your point? Should we invade Yemen next? Lots of countries have links to terrorists, including some countries were are currently allied with, like Pakistan.

[jordanhitler]

Your point? Should we invade Yemen next? Lots of countries have links to terrorists, including some countries were are currently allied with, like Pakistan.

No. (not pakistan because they have nukes...) But seriously, no. I'm just saying that our involvment of iraq isn't completely without positive effect. I think Saddam was a dick and needed to be destroyed, however, it was so done in the wrong way, at the wrong time.

I also believe that iraq is a weakening country that would have only become more unstable without US intervention. However, due to our 'genius' presidents statement of "We'll be there no matter how long it takes", Iraqi leaders feel they can just sit back and let US troops take care of policing iraq and not take any real leadership themselves.

The military has suceeded in every operation and objective it has been given in iraq, now it is the iraqi leaders and the governments turn to turn iraq into a more stable and sucessful nation.

I think alot of people believe that the US is 'sticking its nose in others affairs' in the world, just like the iraq incident. Lets be serious here, just because other powerful countries don't get involved in international matters, doesn't mean they shouldn't. Personally, I think it would do much more good in the world of the US interviened with Darfur instead of Iraq, whats going on there dwarfs the situation in Iraq. But, as I believe some mention in earlier posts, our brilliant oil monopoly president is intent on stabilizing Iraq, not necessarily a bad thing, but more important things are going on in the world right now.

[UNODRAGONE]

Goddamnit Uno it's not "mute" it's "moot"! Mute means silenced or unable to speak. Moot means open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful: a moot point.

2.of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic.
3.Chiefly Law. not actual; theoretical; hypothetical.

Would you please stop using the word "MUTE"!

Ok now on to war stuff, here's an interesting little tidbit.

Last week the Pentagon was forced to release a report conducted over the last five years that concluded, after surveying 600,000 official Iraqi documents captured by U.S. forces, that there is "no smoking gun" establishing any connection whatsoever between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeia.

The report was so embarrassing that we taxpayers were not going to be told of its existence, even though the explosive conclusions were declassified, until ABC News forced the administration to post it on the Joint Forces Command Website. The network reported that the Pentagon had canceled plans to issue a press release on the report or make it available by e-mail or online because, as one Pentagon official put it, the study is "too politically sensitive."

I don't see any of that mentioned in the article itself?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/13/alqaeda.saddam/

To say it in simple terms... FIRST PAGE on Google. :rolleyes:


hhmmm don't see any mention of Google here, so...how was I suppose to know this?

[Vendetta]

I don't see any of that mentioned in the article itself?
Possibly because I didn't link to the ABC story on it. Also, the report was completed early to middle of LAST year IIRC, so yes, I imagine the administration's been sitting on it for a while, to avoid embarassment. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

hhmmm don't see any mention of Google here, so...how was I suppose to know this?
You've heard of Google though right? It's a SEARCH engine. You type a few words like 'Pentagon' 'Report' and 'Iraqi' and voila.

You are not helpless children (well, SOME of you aren't.) You shouldn't have to be led around by the hand to figure things out. I mean we're not talking about some obscure fact here, this story was picked up by just about every major news media outlet, even Fox News.

No. (not pakistan because they have nukes...) But seriously, no. I'm just saying that our involvment of iraq isn't completely without positive effect. I think Saddam was a dick and needed to be destroyed, however, it was so done in the wrong way, at the wrong time.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that Saddam was a brutal dictator and a general "bad" guy. But that's entirely beside the point. Again, I don't see us invading every country that has a violent dictatorship running things (again, some of those dictators are our "friends.") Hell, look how long it took us to get "involved" in Darfur.

[UNODRAGONE]

Possibly because I didn't link to the ABC story on it. Also, the report was completed early to middle of LAST year IIRC, so yes, I imagine the administration's been sitting on it for a while, to avoid embarassment. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.


You've heard of Google though right? It's a SEARCH engine. You type a few words like 'Pentagon' 'Report' and 'Iraqi' and voila.

You are not helpless children (well, SOME of you aren't.) You shouldn't have to be led around by the hand to figure things out. I mean we're not talking about some obscure fact here, this story was picked up by just about every major news media outlet, even Fox News.


I don't think anyone here is arguing that Saddam was a brutal dictator and a general "bad" guy. But that's entirely beside the point. Again, I don't see us invading every country that has a violent dictatorship running things (again, some of those dictators are our "friends.") Hell, look how long it took us to get "involved" in Darfur.


to me unless it is mentioned directly in the report, anything else that is said is the person's opinion and not fact. As far as I can tell any time someone on here has referenced an article, said article has always been provided which was all I asked, why should I have to go fishing for it if someone else was the one to bring it up? Why does it bother you so much that I asked?

[Vendetta]

Why does it bother you so much that I asked?
It doesn't bother me, I just find it remarkable that you HAD to ask. Again, as I pointed out, this wasn't some small story, this was picked up by just about EVERY media outlet in the country. If you can't bother to pick up the paper or watch the news, what the hell are some of you people doing arguing politics?

[UNODRAGONE]

It doesn't bother me, I just find it remarkable that you HAD to ask. Again, as I pointed out, this wasn't some small story, this was picked up by just about EVERY media outlet in the country. If you can't bother to pick up the paper or watch the news, what the hell are some of you people doing arguing politics?

Simple. The media only reports what sells, not always what is true. I rarely pay much attention to the media in this country, they have a way of twisting the truth. I watch the political debates and read things here and there that people send me to debate about or members on here have posted but thats about it, don't read the paper except the police log and community events and the news, blah, always the same shit

[jordanhitler]

Simple. The media only reports what sells, not always what is true. I rarely pay much attention to the media in this country, they have a way of twisting the truth. I watch the political debates and read things here and there that people send me to debate about or members on here have posted but thats about it, don't read the paper except the police log and community events and the news, blah, always the same shit

The media will report whatever they report. Its up to you to make of what they report. I think the media actually does a pretty good job of what they do, and in my opinion, an unfair business is fair for the media. In other words, anything that catches the media's eye will be sought to give a negative image. Its a good way of making people have to research things on their own if they should so want to know about something. It makes people look at things and go, "hmm... is this really good?" given research, it could either A. reaffirm that it is in fact a good thing, or B. that its actually a bad thing, in which the media would have a positive effect.

The only beef I honestly have with the media is that I don't think the media should get involved with the economy.

[Vendetta]

The only beef I honestly have with the media is that I don't think the media should get involved with the economy.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this comment?

[jordanhitler]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this comment?

Yeah sorry, I was cut off there.

Anyway, I don't think the media should get involved with the economy because I think by reporting everytime it goes down, it goes even more down. Think about it, everytime a report comes out about a downward economy, things suddenly get worse. Just because companies and consumers think, "EEK! MONIES IS TIGHT YO!" so they conserve their shit and companies raise prices, thus further damaging the economy. I think thats a big reason why oil prices go up, that and monopolistic satanic oil companies. I seriously don't buy that The war in iraq is affecting the prices that much. All the oil company has to do is shut down a refinery and say, "were getting less oil so the price is going up, yeah yeah its that whole iraq thing again..." bullshit!

[Vendetta]

Yeah sorry, I was cut off there.

Anyway, I don't think the media should get involved with the economy because I think by reporting everytime it goes down, it goes even more down.
Err without reporting on the economy or finance, how would people know what to invest in or be able to make informed buying decisions?

Think about it, everytime a report comes out about a downward economy, things suddenly get worse. Just because companies and consumers think, "EEK! MONIES IS TIGHT YO!" so they conserve their shit and companies raise prices, thus further damaging the economy.
The only "damage" the economy sustains is VERY short-term. Also, reporting on the economy goes the other way too you know. Witness last week's market rally.

I think thats a big reason why oil prices go up, that and monopolistic satanic oil companies. I seriously don't buy that The war in iraq is affecting the prices that much. All the oil company has to do is shut down a refinery and say, "were getting less oil so the price is going up, yeah yeah its that whole iraq thing again..." bullshit!
Uhhh but this has NOTHING to do with the media. I'd say the media has even LESS an impact on oil prices. Also Iraq produces over 2 million barrels of oil per year (as of 2006, down over 500,000 from the years before 2001.) While that may not be a large amount compared to other large middle-eastern oil producing countries, like Saudi Arabia, it IS still a sizable chunk. And when that production or even THREAT of production drops, prices per barrel are going to go up. Also, oil companies in the US don't set the price of oil, that's OPEC that does that (and we're not a member.)

[E_Asinus]

I don’t like the idea of being in a war, and I think we need to stop it, but think what would happen if we do stop and just leave!

[UNODRAGONE]

I don’t like the idea of being in a war, and I think we need to stop it, but think what would happen if we do stop and just leave!


no one likes war (except maybe Hitler) no one likes being in a war but at the same time what do you think will happen if we just pull out?

[Vendetta]

no one likes war (except maybe Hitler) no one likes being in a war but at the same time what do you think will happen if we just pull out?
You mean like what we did after Iraq invaded Kuwait?

[UNODRAGONE]

You mean like what we did after Iraq invaded Kuwait?

honestly I am curious as to what you think will happen if we just bring all the troops home and leave that country and it's government and people the way it is

[Vendetta]

honestly I am curious as to what you think will happen if we just bring all the troops home and leave that country and it's government and people the way it is
Did you not read what I wrote?

You mean like what we did after Iraq invaded Kuwait?

[UNODRAGONE]

Did you not read what I wrote?

I read that, not sure what that has to do with my question, I'm not asking about what happened with the whole Iraq invading Kuwait thing, I am asking about whats going on now

[Vendetta]

I read that, not sure what that has to do with my question, I'm not asking about what happened with the whole Iraq invading Kuwait thing, I am asking about whats going on now
And I SAID, the same thing would happen when we pulled out too soon from Kuwait/Iraq the FIRST time. See, I'm making what is commonly called an analogy.

[UNODRAGONE]

And I SAID, the same thing would happen when we pulled out too soon from Kuwait/Iraq the FIRST time. See, I'm making what is commonly called an analogy.

actually in your last post you asked a question, you didn't make a statement which was were I was confused

[Vendetta]

actually in your last post you asked a question, you didn't make a statement which was were I was confused
They don't have rhetorical questions where you come from?

[UNODRAGONE]

They don't have rhetorical questions where you come from?


let's see, without seeing your facial expression or hearing your tone I am suppose to know this is a rhetorical question....how?