Freedom of Religion or Child Neglect?

[LV426]

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/ap_on_re_us/daughter_s_death_pra yer;_ylt=At80aMZd6mo CuSCe_D5PI6dH2ocA)

By ROBERT IMRIE, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 4 minutes ago

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.


An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

[Kaden]

I think that while freedom of religion is important, you shouldn't allow your beliefs to prevent the medical care for your children or any one for that matter. Prayers are for morale not for curing medical ailments. Prayer didn't cure Faolan's cancer, Chemotherapy did. Prayer helped him get through it mentally.

People who rely on prayer to save someone from a medical ailment are delusional.

[RQ]

That shit is murder, and it serves those people right that their daughter died.

[J.L.R.]

I read the article a few days back and it can't image how some people can be so stupid. If it had cost them their own lives, I would just up it to Darwin Awards, but since it cost the life of an innocent child it is aggrivating...

This reminds me of an old joke about a guy who was praying for salvation while flood waters rose around his house.

A car drives by and the driver calls out to our unfortunate man pleading with him to get in the car and escape...

The man replies... "You don't have to worry about me, God is going to save me."

The flood waters rise and now the man is sitting on his porch...

A guy in a boat floats by and pleades with the man to jump in the boat and escape.

The man replies, "You don't have to worry about me, God will save me."

The flood waters rose some more and the man had to climb onto his roof so that he wouldn't drown.

A helicopter flies by and the guy inside hollers out to the man to take the latter and climb aboard to escape the flood.

The man replies, "You don't have to worry about me, God will save me."

At last the flood waters rose too high, and the man drown. In heaven he marched up to God, angry as can be and asked God why He didn't save his life.

God replied... "I sent a car, I sent a boat, and I sent a helicopter..."

The reality is, I strongly doubt these people, who let their daughter die, have actually read the Bible, because throughout the Old Testament and the new, people had to use medication in order to cure sicknesses. While God can work miracles, and I've seen many cases where diagnoses have been turned on their head, the patient in question, had to obviously take care of their body and do what the doctor said.

In the Old Testament, Naaman wouldn't have been healed of leprocy had he not dipped himself seven times into the river Jordan. Whether you believe the story or not isn't problem nor the issue, because if being a "Christian" you believe that this event happened, it would reveal that just because you have faith, doesn't give you the right to be stupid and disregard the doctor's orders. In short had Naaman had not obeyed, he would have died a lepper.

I think these people should be held accountible for their crimes, no matter how "godly" they think they are.

[Kaden]

I honestly believe criminal charges should be placed on the family. They are fanatics. It's that simple. Medicine is not the enemy. It's not that hard to grasp.

[ThrasherCub]

I'm all for freedom of religion and if you'd rather pray than see a doctor I fully support you in that, regardless of the fact that you're probably stupid. However, choices like that shouldn't be imposed upon a child who cannot possibly understand the reality of medicine and the "reality" of prayer. Ergo, it should be treated as a crime of neglect at least until an age were the "child" could conceivably be tried as an adult for his or her own crimes.

[UNODRAGONE]

this is tough, I would first look to see if the little girl was neglected in any other way (ie not being fed or any other signs of neglect) seeing as how the family didn't follow any specific religion (not that you have to) how would they know thats what God wanted? I am assuming they were not blind to the world around them and saw how people with diabetes lived full long lives WITH THE HELP OF MEDICINE, so on that stand point how the hell did they think pray would save her? I would also look into the families past history and see if there is something there that would give more insight. Should they be held accountable for their daughters death? Not if she wasn't in any other way neglected, since it would show that they were only following their religious beliefs which the first amendment gives them that right (I'm speaking strictly on a legal stand point on this), should a social worker work with the family for the sake of the remaining kids? Hell yes.

[Galliard]

I think it's downright murder. The child died because of action/inaction of the parents, regardless of motive, and that's at least manslaughter, so yeah, I think there should be a trial. AND ( a bit outside the law) I think people like that, who end up harming/ killing others with their doctrines, need to get beat with a stick that has rusty nails in it!!!!!:mad:

[Vendetta]

Freedom of religion doesn't cover things like this. Otherwise I'm starting a religion! The religion that says I can kill anyone I don't like.

[Sazabi]

I'm starting a religion! The religion that says I can kill anyone I don't like.

I'll join if we can get tax exempt status and then cap the tools wearing masks and yelling internet cliches from the sidewalk.

[Kaden]

Ven, there's already a "religion" like that. Scientology.


Uno, it's child neglect regardless. I think Social Services should take the other children away from the parents for safety' sake.

[UNODRAGONE]

then again The Child Abuse Prevention, Adoption, and Family Services Act of 1992 (42 sec. 5106g) defines child abuse and neglect as: the physical or mental injury, sexual abuse or exploitation, negligent treatment, or maltreatment of a child by a person who is responsible for the child's welfare, under circumstances which indicate that the child's health or welfare is harmed of threatened. It's neglect in the sense of treatment but not of the child herself. The causes of child abuse and neglect include violence between family members or other members of the household, lack of extended family support, loneliness and social isolation, inadequate housing, unemployment, limited education, and serious marital problems including seperation and divorce

[Kaden]

But willfully denying medical treatment to the child is neglect.

[UNODRAGONE]

But willfully denying medical treatment to the child is neglect.


actually that is debatable. Jehovah Witnesses do not believe in blood transfusions since they believe that should only come from God, which is not considered neglecting the child in regards to treatment.

[Kaden]

*mumbles about how wintnesses also deny birthdays*

That's just blood transfusions, and while still neglectful to an extent, they at least allow other medical treatments. These parents are wack jobs who neglected their child medically and they should be fined or locked up and have their remaining children removed from the household.

[UNODRAGONE]

*mumbles about how wintnesses also deny birthdays*

That's just blood transfusions, and while still neglectful to an extent, they at least allow other medical treatments. These parents are wack jobs who neglected their child medically and they should be fined or locked up and have their remaining children removed from the household.

(Agrees not celebrating birthdays is just wrong :) )
Unfortunatly all that is stated is that the family believed by praying for her she would get better, thats not exactly denying medical treatment and it is not stated if they allowed other medical treatment to take place (I am assuming they did since they knew she was diabetic to begin with and that doesn't just go away)

[Kaden]

Family members said in the article that when the ambulance arrived that the family would have resisted.

[UNODRAGONE]

Family members said in the article that when the ambulance arrived that the family would have resisted.

hear say doesn't hold water. Since the other children do not display any signs of being in danger or abused, more then likely this will be handed over to family prevention services. Family preservation services help parents support and care for their children through (1) family resource, support, and educational services that address problems as they arise, and (3) intensive family-centered crisis services that seek to stabilize families when there is an imminent risk of separating children from their parents because of abuse or neglect. The family preservation social worker functions as a family counselor and as an educator, teaching parenting skills, how to provide appropriate discipline, and how to deal with the problems posed by the changing developmental stages and expectations of children. The philosophy of family preservation rests on the assumption that abusive parents do not intend to harm their children and, with the right combination of interventions and services, can meet criteria for adequate parenting.

[Sabor_X]

I think the parents are dumb. Flatly. I believe in God and I pray. But maybe Gods way of answering their prayers was SENDING THE DAMN DOCTORS TO HELP!!! I mean what did they think was going to happen? I've been a Christian all my life, I've prayed all my life, and never have I seen a dove fly down from the sky and cure a child of illness, but I've seen doctors find cures.

[LV426]

Praying parents' other 3 kids removed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/ap_on_re_us/daughter_s_death_pra yer;_ylt=ArGta758O3T DpQEDuMzKGQms0NUE)

By ROBERT IMRIE, Associated Press Writer Fri Mar 28, 7:52 PM ET

WAUSAU, Wis. - The three siblings of a girl who died of diabetes that went untreated as her parents prayed instead of taking her to a doctor have been removed from the home during an investigation, police said Friday.


The parents and social services experts agreed the move would be best for everyone, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said. The children are staying with other relatives, though they were not in danger, he said.

"There is no physical evidence of abuse or neglect," he said.

Madeline Neumann, 11, died Sunday the Weston home of an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes as her parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, prayed for her to get better. Her mother said she never expected her daughter, whom she called Kara, to die.

The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, Leilani Neumann said.

The children removed from the home range in age from 13 to 16 and are expected to return to their parents once an investigation of the girl's death wraps up, Vergin said.

He would not specify where they are living, other than with another family member.

Vergin said his agency's final report will make no recommendations on possible charges against the parents, leaving that up to the district attorney.

"There is no intent. They didn't want their child to die. They thought what they were doing was the right thing," he said. "They believed up to the time she stopped breathing she was going to get better. They just thought it was a spiritual attack. They believed if they prayed enough she would get through it."

[Galliard]

I still think that they should be beaten! Even though I am not Christian, I remember the old adage "God helps those who help themselves." They did not help their child. They let her die.Also, how can they believe that they're so special that God would "choose" them for a miracle? How egotistical can you get? I also agree with Sabor_X, what if the doctors WERE the miracle that they were hoping for... don't people refer to it as the "miracles of modern science"? GRR!!!!:mad: :mad:

[Destiny]

I do believe in freedom of religion.Yet,though praying for healing is perfectly understandable, treatment may be nescessary, just as this case was. Child neglect isn't right; God wants you to pray for healing and understand you can be healed by his hand, but this is rediculous. I'd take some medicine then pray. And yes, doctors can be the help you need, help comes in many shapes and forms.

[john the baptist]

I still think that they should be beaten! Even though I am not Christian, I remember the old adage "God helps those who help themselves." They did not help their child. They let her die.Also, how can they believe that they're so special that God would "choose" them for a miracle? How egotistical can you get? I also agree with Sabor_X, what if the doctors WERE the miracle that they were hoping for... don't people refer to it as the "miracles of modern science"? GRR!!!!:mad: :mad:

When a religion loses you a child, pick a new religion! Have some common sense.

[lycanox]

Well, each religion has its wackos. Even the relative peaceful ones like Hinduism and buddhism had cults that believed in human sacrifice or world domination.

And radical religious people usually don't change when they convert. They usually just pick up the radical version of their new religion.
That is because religion itself isn't radical but the people that practice it in a such way have a radical viewpoint on the world.

I think the child's death would have happened anyway, no matter which religious believe their parents picked or which god the parents prayed too.

So I personally fail too see the relation between freedom of religion and this case.

[ThrasherCub]

Well, each religion has its wackos. Even the relative peaceful ones like Hinduism and buddhism had cults that believed in human sacrifice or world domination.

Please cite a source on dangerous Buddhist cult.

[lycanox]

Try searching for the Aum cult.
The cult responsible for the Tokyo subway sarin attack.

[unfitto]

I know a man who has a similar attitude; he sat and prayed at the bedside of his alcoholic mother right up to her death. It amazes me how blind these people can be, and scares me. Good move on taking the children from them.

[LV426]

UPDATE:

Wis. parents who prayed as diabetic daughter died charged (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080428/ap_on_re_us/prayer_death;_ylt=Av HJz4J1Zr_8WqWwCt6bqM is0NUE)

By ROBERT IMRIE, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 21 minutes ago

WESTON, Wis. - Two parents who prayed as their 11-year-old daughter died of untreated diabetes were charged Monday with second-degree reckless homicide.


Family and friends had urged Dale and Leilani Neumann to get help for their daughter, but the father considered the illness "a test of faith" and the mother never considered taking the girl to the doctor because she thought her daughter was under a "spiritual attack," the criminal complaint said.

"It is very surprising, shocking that she wasn't allowed medical intervention," Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad said. "Her death could have been prevented."

Madeline Neumann died March 23 — Easter Sunday — at her family's rural Weston home. Her parents were told the body would be taken to Madison for an autopsy the next day.

"They responded, 'You won't need to do that. She will be alive by then,'" the medical examiner wrote in a report.

An autopsy determined that Madeline died from undiagnosed diabetic ketoacidosis, which left her with too little insulin in her body. Court records said she likely had some symptoms of the disease for months.

The Neumanns each face up to 25 years in prison if convicted. The couple and their attorney did not immediately return messages left Monday by The

Falstad said the Neumanns have cooperated with investigators and are not under arrest. They have agreed to make an initial court appearance Wednesday, she said.

Randall Wormgoor, a friend of the Neumanns, told police that Dale Neumann led Bible studies at his business, Monkey Mo Coffee Shop, and believed physical illness was due to sin, curable by prayer and by asking for forgiveness from God, the complaint said.

Wormgoor said he and his wife, Althea, were at the Neumann home when Madeline — — called Kara by her parents — died. Wormgoor said he had urged the father to seek medical help and was told the illness "was a test of faith for the Neumann family and asked the Wormgoors to join them in praying for Kara to get well," the complaint said.

Althea Wormgoor said she "implored" the parents to seek medical help for the girl, the complaint said.

Leilani Neumann, 40, told the AP previously she never expected her daughter to die. The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, but they have nothing against doctors, she said.

Dale Neumann, 46, a former police officer, has said he has friends who are doctors and started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

According to court documents, Leilani Neumann said in a written statement to police that she never considered taking the girl, who was being home-schooled, to a doctor.

"We just thought it was a spiritual attack and we prayed for her. My husband Dale was crying and mentioned taking Kara to the doctor and I said, 'The Lord's going to heal her,' and we continued to pray," she wrote.

The father told investigators he noticed his daughter was weak and slower for about two weeks but he attributed it to symptoms of the girl reaching puberty, the complaint said.

A day before Madeline died, according to the criminal complaint, the father wrote an e-mail with the headline, "Help our daughter needs emergency prayer!!!!." It said his daughter was "very weak and pale at the moment with hardly any strength."

The girl's grandmother, Evalani Gordon, told police that she learned her granddaughter could not walk or talk on March 22 and advised Leilani Neumann to take the girl to a doctor.

Gordon eventually contacted a daughter-in-law in California who called police on a non-emergency line to report the girl was in a coma and needed medical help. An ambulance was dispatched shortly before some friends in the home called 911 to report the girl had stopped breathing, authorities said.

One relative told police that the girl's mother believed she "died because the devil is trying to stop Leilani from starting her own ministry," the complaint said.

The Neumanns said they moved to Weston, a suburb of Wausau in central Wisconsin, from California about two years ago to open the coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. The couple has three other children, ages 13 to 16; they are living with relatives.

The family does not belong to an organized religion or faith, Leilani Neumann has said.

Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said the parents once belonged to the Lighthouse Pentecostal Church but later became what he called religious "isolationists" involved in a prayer group of five people.

"They have gone out on their own," he said. "... They have a very narrow view of Scripture and I would say not many people hold to that narrow of view."

In March, an Oregon couple who belong to a church that preaches against medical care and believes in treating illness with prayer were charged with manslaughter and criminal mistreatment in the death of their 15-month-old daughter. The toddler died March 2 of bronchial pneumonia and a blood infection that could have been treated with antibiotics, the state medical examiner's office said.

[RQ]

The whole thing is just sickening. That poor girl. The parents deserve the full penalty.

This brings up an interesting question. If religion is detrimental to the health of certain individuals because of their fanaticism, do you think legislation should be passed demanding that minors be treated medically under such circumstances, regardless of their wishes or the wishes of their families?

Or is it the equivalent of a DNR, and should it be a protected personal decision with which the government should not tamper?

I think the former, but I'm interested in people who might think differently, and why.

[ThrasherCub]

If religion is detrimental to the health of certain individuals because of their fanaticism, do you think legislation should be passed demanding that minors be treated medically under such circumstances, regardless of their wishes or the wishes of their families?

Maybe not until they're adults, 15 or 16 might work too. But either way, yes I agree with you. If an adult feels like choosing prayer over medication that's fine with me and they have that right. However most kids aren't in either the possition or the mindset to say, "you know, maybe mom and her religion are both completely fucking nuts. After all, my tumor won't stop growing!"

It should, at the absolute minimum, be required that these people have their sick kids closely monitored and medical assistance given if/when conditions worsen.

[Kaden]

RQ, i absolutely agree with you that the child should be given medical care regardless of the parent's wacked out ideals. If this was in place, that would have been 2 lives that we could have saved already.

[greggchamberlain]

[QUOTE

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."[/QUOTE]


that statement suggests that the parents have neither done a proper study of biblical text nor given as much thought as they should have to what the Creator had in mind regarding good parenting.

those of us who have children (not me, though i make a decent uncle) know that these children are given "on loan" for the benefit of their future and their children's future, not just our present.

any actions, or failures to act, that jeopardize that future are criminal, whether in law or in spirit.