How far have we strayed from what was America...

[LucimOfTheMoon]

Before I get anyone on my back, I have no problem with the home of the brave. We are a great nation and have gone through a lot to get where we are. That said we must accept that America today is NOT what our forefathers had in their sights.

Not to say its for the worse, but I just want to see what your oppinions are. Here are my basic arguments, I will elaborate/ammend these as more evidence/arguments appear.


-We are a Service Nation. I have no hard data yet, but It seems to me McDonalds largely outnumber Safeways. Our forefathers founded us as a Manufacturing Nation. "American-made" vehicles are now only assembled in the US if that. We have become highly dependant on other nations.

-Our Constitution is the only Political Document that guides a nation to be "Ammended". We have changed our views of what our laws mean so many times, it's become normal to hear of a proposed amendment where in onther nations it would be absurd.

-Politics has become so corrupt that even your comon 5th Grader can tell you more about how a President has made a mistake than his Triumphs and accomplishments.

Those are my main three. Now have at it!

[MorganaFang]

When was America ever the ideal? Maybe that should be the question because I have to say we are doing better than we ever have in history. Sure there is corruption, sure there is some shitty stuff going on but look here we have rights for all races and genders, sure some individuals do not respect these rights but they are there in our constitution. We have programs for every kind of basic need. There is the redcross, peacecore, etc etc. A stronger army with better benefits. I would say that though it is not perfect America has never been this close to being the American dream ever before.

[Ookamiotoko]

I guess...Here is my point of veiw:

America is a good country with hidden or exposed issues that basically most of us either ignore or don't act upon quickly. We get in other nations' own personal affairs with its people and wind up making things worse, we are making issues about borders when this has always been an immigrant country (What's with the changes?), we are barely taking care of greenhouse effects, we won the WW2, we made lots of good things that I have either forgotten to mentioned or don't recall at the moment, but we have all made grave mistakes in the past and its starting to affect not just the people but the environment in a tragic way that could leave us with a crappy world and America is so far amongs those who makes the biggest impact on the ecological system of the world. (Hmm...I can tell I'm going off and talking about another topic).

Tell you what, the problem is not with the American system but with the human race itself. I'll say an outrageous idea that might help the world in a drastic way: What were to happen if only 1/8 of the humans in this world went bye-bye? Shocking, scary, traggic, and I can imagine the blood spilled. I can't ignore that question anymore because that question always pops up in my head that I've become more and more cold worded when I'm talking serious:

Humans are amongs the entire world's biggest issue. It's not the bugs, it's not the resource problem. I'll be blunt, we are aming for a gigantic starvation period what will kill off not just most of the human race, but other species of the world and it's going to happen one day or another. "You can only please some beings of this world all of the time, you can only please every being in the world some of the time, but you can never please all of the beings in this world all the time." What does this mean? The more the human race increases it's survival rate the more stress you put on every one of the world's animals, plants, and other creatures that live along us.

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(I went off topic)
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Back to topic, I honestly believe that it wasn't America's fault for being the way it is today. (America is just land! How can you blame land?!) Also, It's the human population crisis that is to blame for all the bad things that are going to happen and that are happening currently!
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(Off topic)

Humans are selfish creatures, and I'm counting myself. The minute I key anything on this computer, dress in clothes, buy food, read books, and do everything that a normal human would in this economy, I have become a selfish creature that only thinks of the human race and it's acomplishments. For "GOD"'s sake people, what would happen if you were the animals that are constatly being killed in the wild for us to feed on, clothe on, and sell at the market you would feel pretty horrified!
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(Sort of back on topic)

Being blunt America is just America, If people were to follow the constitution exactly the way our founding fathers intended it to be followed, we would have had a big mess. Currently, I'd say it's only going to get worse because (Read Ishmael to understand my point of veiw) we exempt ourselves from being what we normally were and still are, animals. We make mistakes, we are not perfect and that's what people aim for. If America is so great, why doesn't it tell people that the way we're living is wrong in the world's point of veiw? Why doesn't it follow the original laws of life? Why isn't it a dog-eat-dog world where when you die, you die, and when you live you live? I'll be brutal honest about this, America, the land of freedom, must by all means, has to have a dog-eat-dog system because the way things are coming up, people are migrating to America. (Out of topic again)
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Just because America is a big country to date doesn't mean that it won't come crashing down. The biggest killer of any country and it's people is the fact that they are excempting themselves from the world's system. America is a great country...or is it?
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China is doing something good for a chande, decreasing its population for they are saving themselves a bit from the massive tragedy that will await us humans in the distant future. The self destruction of the entire human race will begin in a few years or a few centuries. We have time, wy don't we start making a big change? I'll tell you, 1/8 of the human populationwill survive as long as we give up the other 7/8 portion, or would you rather have a canibalistic world in the future with no other race than the human race or a huge chaotic period where not even 1/10000 of the human population is left? Think about that.
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Ignoring all that: America IS NOT the way our founding fathers wanted it to be. Simple as that.
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Moment of silence for the human race's final years/centuries to come if we don't act soon.
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Also, I think murder, genocides, homisides, massacres, war and many violent things that the humans do to kill other humans is keeping us from suffeing an even more tragic fate. I would say that most people (though ignorant or blind) would agree that the human race is on the brink of colapse...
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PS: If I get banned for just saying this then I really don't care because it's going to become the bloody truth of the world someday or another. I might as well speed it up.

[MorganaFang]

PS: If I get banned for just saying this then I really don't care because it's going to become the bloody truth of the world someday or another. I might as well speed it up.

Uhhhh Why would you get banned for stating your opinion? (as convoluted, somewhat contradicting, unfocused as it is) You may get argued with or directly insulted but that is more up to individual members not the administration of this board. Do not act like it is such a great matyr-dumb to state an opposing opinion, you honestly are putting too much value into what you are saying that is not even there, kiddo.

[Tempest]

-Our Constitution is the only Political Document that guides a nation to be "Ammended". We have changed our views of what our laws mean so many times, it's become normal to hear of a proposed amendment where in onther nations it would be absurd.

I fail to see why this is a problem. We have the ability to adapt our laws as the people and times change. So? Would you rather gays, blacks, and women have no rights? Would you rather have started working at 4 years old? Working for pennies? Working in unsafe conditions? Times change and people's views on things change, and the government has to change with it.

-Politics has become so corrupt that even your comon 5th Grader can tell you more about how a President has made a mistake than his Triumphs and accomplishments.

Politics have always been corrupt. That's simply the nature of the beast. People who have power can, and most of the time will, use it for things most people consider bad. Early America was not a Golden Age...

So what if America isn't a perfect vision of the Founding Fathers? I think we have changed (in some cases very slowly) for the better. I mean, you think we pollute now, Ookamiotoko, but there are regulations against pollution now that never existed before. We actually are becoming cleaner believe it or not.
Humans, believe it or not, are just animals who are fighting to survive. It is the nature of an animal to want to keep nice things. Want to test it? Give your dog a new chew toy and then take it away. You can't really blame it on the human race because we are just doing what every other animal on the face of the Earth does. We want nice things, we want to live long and comfortably, we want to eat good, and no we do not want to share.
Yes there are a lot of humans but guess what? There are more ants in this world than people. It's the simple fact that we take up a lot of space that is causing problems. We are not headed towards a mass starvation. I think that before it even reached that point (which it won't) people would take their heads out of their asses. We already are starting to.
That being said I'm very happy to see someone else who has read Ishmael. I've read it a few times myself. Excellent book :D

Why isn't it a dog-eat-dog world where when you die, you die, and when you live you live? I'll be brutal honest about this, America, the land of freedom, must by all means, has to have a dog-eat-dog system because the way things are coming up, people are migrating to America. (Out of topic again)

Sorry to say but this is quite silly. It will never be a "dog-eat-dog" world. EVER. Humans have lived in tribes since the dawn of humanity. We have had a herding instinct for a very long time. Anyone who has worked at a restaurant can see this in action; one table gets up to leave, at least 3 follow. Nations are simply very large tribes. I do not see America falling to the civil war state in the near future. So, I don't think it's going to become a dog-eat-dog world. Nor do I even think it should be.

China is doing something good for a chande, decreasing its population for they are saving themselves a bit from the massive tragedy that will await us humans in the distant future.

I don't quite know what you are talking about since I'm not up to date on the news, but I assume you are referring to the fact that they can only have one kid there? If so, you do realize that has caused many problems right? Not only infanticide, but now there are more men than women (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/13/60minutes/main1496589.shtml).

PS: If I get banned for just saying this then I really don't care because it's going to become the bloody truth of the world someday or another. I might as well speed it up.

Why the hell would you get banned for that?

[Sazabi]

-Our Constitution is the only Political Document that guides a nation to be "Ammended". We have changed our views of what our laws mean so many times, it's become normal to hear of a proposed amendment where in other nations it would be absurd.

Thats because the constitution was inherently flawed and the founders knew this. Or would you rather still consider Blacks to be 3/5 of a person, like it was stated in the original version? The ability to amend the constitution is an excellent living document idea, and it is pretty rarely done. You would have to be pretty fucking stupid to argue that never changing the constitution is a bad thing.

I hate to break it to you, but politics were always this 'corrupt', if thats how you want to phrase it. The whole reason Blacks were considered 3/5 of a person was for political and economic reasons. Defining people as fractions is about as 'corrupt' as it gets there, buddy.

The constitution is great. It prevents a tyranny of the majority, protects individual rights, and is flexible enough to adapt and withstand change. Thats why it's the worlds oldest federal constitution.

Cina is doing something good for a chande, decreasing its population for they are saving themselves a bit from the massive tragedy that will await us humans in the distant future.

lol. China is one of the biggest offenders ever, and one of the major reasons no progress will be made on worldwide environmental issues. As they rapidly continue development, expect them to make the US look like the green party in comparison.

[LucimOfTheMoon]

Very true on the Constitution. I can take criticism very well, as well as learn from what you are saying. Yes, the founding fathers did understand this, and thus allowed for the Ammendments. No, I would not have no rights for Gays, Blacks, or Women, as I have stated in my Gay rights posts.

Yes, politics has been corrupt from the beginning,as we can see even dating back to Lincoln. My problem is that we fail to *want* to change this. Most people would rather sit and complain than act, and I believe that is part of our problem.

I notice no one has noted the fact that we are a Service nation. Just to clarify, does this mean that we all agree what is suppossed to be "American-made" should be truly "American-made"? Harley Davidson is no longer an American Motrcycle as Japan and I believe a few other countries make the parts.

Like I stated, no, America is not perfect, yet I have no problem with that. For with perfection, we lose the ability to better ourselves. And without that, what point is there in life?

[blueeyes]

-We are a Service Nation. I have no hard data yet, but It seems to me McDonalds largely outnumber Safeways. Our forefathers founded us as a Manufacturing Nation. "American-made" vehicles are now only assembled in the US if that. We have become highly dependant on other nations.

McDonald's tend to outnumber conventional grocery stores because they can, individually, serve fewer individuals, and those individuals that they seek to serve are less likely to commute longer distances. Because few people want to drive more than a few minutes to a McDonalds, these stores tend toward the smaller sizes. A fast food joint, outside of major cities, can only seat a few dozen individuals at a time, and those individuals will only be sated for a short period of time.
On the other side of things, the average Safeway or WalMart can serve well over two hundred people, and depending on what they need, will sate them for a week or potentially longer. Because groceries need to be done less often and in less of a hurry, they tend toward larger stores that can do such a thing.

As a result, measuring the number of each store is not a good metric at measuring dependence on those stores.

Given that the average American spends less than 8 USD a day on food, it's safe to say that the various Safeways and Costco of the world are still doing brisk business.

-Our Constitution is the only Political Document that guides a nation to be "Ammended". We have changed our views of what our laws mean so many times, it's become normal to hear of a proposed amendment where in onther nations it would be absurd.

Not quite true. In once-Great Britain, for example, the House of Commons and House of Lords would only need to propose a law to overturn previous political documents, such as the long-dead Magna Carta and similar documents. The Canadian system approaches ours with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, largely because the previous Canadian Bill of Rights was only statutory and could be changed with a simple new law, and thus made entirely fangless over time.

The concept of a constitution or similar binding document providing rules and format for a government is not unusual. The Americans largely lifted the solution wholesale from the British, then made it slightly harder to change, but the Iroquois, Greeks, Japanese, Egyptians, Chinese, and possibly a few-dozen other countries had similar concepts first.

When you get down to the nuts and bolts of things, the Constitution is just a single hard-to-change law. The only particularly outstanding aspect is that amending it is difficult -- compared to the British monarchy's habit of changing the law literally at the drop of a hat, this was quite an improvement -- but it's not specially easy to change.

There's not a single human government on the planet that doesn't have the ability to change its own laws.

-Politics has become so corrupt that even your comon 5th Grader can tell you more about how a President has made a mistake than his Triumphs and accomplishments.

One could argue a lot of different meanings for that particular data point. Mistakes tend to be much better publicized than successes. I hate the male Clinton's guts and can list off a good number of idiotic mistakes the man did, but putting Reno anywhere near a fully automatic firearm is only a sign of stupidity, not corruption.

But if you'd like to get to the bones of things, I doubt this is a particularly new development. There are few great men that were nice men, and while we don't spend too much time thinking about Roosevelt rounding up over a hundred thousand people by race and sticking them in a glorified prison for years then stole millions of dollars worth of currency from innocent people by fiat, Lincoln ignoring habeas corpus and tossing Supreme Court judges in jail, or Washington shooting farmers over untaxed alcohol, the fact is that those things still did happen. What's right (or in the case of Roosevelt, wrong) isn't often nice.

That's the nature of things.

[ThrasherCub]

TC wishes to interject that getting back to what America used to be is a good part of what the KKK is aiming for.

[LucimOfTheMoon]

Hahaha, and TC? Lucim would like to agree... I didn't really think of how bad it was back then too... I think we can safely agree the new America is better, so instead of starting a new thread, I'd like to put this out...

What would make America better in *your* eyes?

Please, as in politics, bashing is to be expected, but keep it above the belt. :p

[blueeyes]

We get in other nations' own personal affairs with its people and wind up making things worse,
I hate to quote Burke, given the man's emphasis on avoiding slogans, but to borrow a phrase : "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

To put things simply, there are some really, really Bad people out there. We're talking tens of millions (Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Communist China) in many cases, and even the 'less' Bad groups have little problem running through an area with machetes and carving up hundreds of thousands of individuals, then attempting to remove any evidence of their existence.

These groups tend to deserve the capital B on their particular Bad.

American actions tend to make things more noteworthy, but the reality is that the statistics before and after seldom favor inaction. Even the Lancet medical journal's widely inaccurate assessments of 'worse' don't seem that bad when you pay attention to the history books and watch the previous ruler attempt to kill off 6 million individuals through chemical warfare and planned famine.
we are making issues about borders when this has always been an immigrant country (What's with the changes?),
International common law understanding, I'm afraid. There's a much more favorable viewpoint toward buying or taking over land by force as compared to sneaking into it, to the point where the former is still fairly legal while the latter is assuredly not.
I'll be blunt, we are aming for a gigantic starvation period what will kill off not just most of the human race, but other species of the world and it's going to happen one day or another.
Sorry to burst the Malthusian bubble, but even assuming human populations were to continue growing at the current second derivative, technology and plant reproduction is still managing to surpass human sex when it comes to making things productively. We're able to make a whole lot of food without taking a lot of ground, these days.

And that would presume constant or increasing rates of population growth. Europe's population, however, is already in the midst of a baby bust, and China's one child policy and resulting 54% male populace are not going to encourage such a thing. Many parts of the United States are having similar issues, although to a lesser degree.

For "GOD"'s sake people, what would happen if you were the animals that are constatly being killed in the wild for us to feed on, clothe on, and sell at the market you would feel pretty horrified!
From the relevant personal experience on the matter, the average deer does not seem to squirm any differently whether his muscle is going to feed another animal or going into a freezer, or some combination thereof.
If America is so great, why doesn't it tell people that the way we're living is wrong in the world's point of veiw? Why doesn't it follow the original laws of life? Why isn't it a dog-eat-dog world where when you die, you die, and when you live you live?
Largely because knowing that can't really lose much is addictive for a good portion of the human population, I think.
China is doing something good for a chande, decreasing its population for they are saving themselves a bit from the massive tragedy that will await us humans in the distant future. The self destruction of the entire human race will begin in a few years or a few centuries.
Heh. You're surprisingly close to my guesses on the time matter, for someone approaching things from an entirely different viewpoint.

May I ask why you think decreasing population is supposed to improve supplies of food and materials? Modern food production -- food production that's able to produce several times the amount of output for a given amount of land, resources, and manpower -- does not exist in a vacuum. Fertilizer plants require massive fleets of trucks and hundreds of specialized workers. Great machinery can only be made affordable thanks to giant plants. Electricity and oil production? I don't even want to go into the number of people required to keep that stuff running.

Go back to an eighth of the current populace, and you'll pretty reliably get to the sort of technology that'd make the 1850s proud.

If I were you, I'd worry more about dropping population than the reverse. Maybe I missed something, though.

[UNODRAGONE]

I would say that most people (though ignorant or blind) would agree that the human race is on the brink of colapse...

ignorant or blind huh? I think saying that in itself is ignorant, where's your logic coming from?



America IS NOT the way our founding fathers wanted it to be. Simple as that

Actually yes it is, the whole point of finding new land was to start over and free ourselves from religious persecution, which we have and to escape the hold England had.



If America is so great, why doesn't it tell people that the way we're living is wrong in the world's point of veiw? Why doesn't it follow the original laws of life? Why isn't it a dog-eat-dog world where when you die, you die, and when you live you live? I'll be brutal honest about this, America, the land of freedom, must by all means, has to have a dog-eat-dog system because the way things are coming up, people are migrating to America

not clear on the bolded statement but dog eat dog world isn't really in human nature, for the most part people want to help people. Think about it, when you see an old lady carrying a lot of grocieries to her car struggling, wouldn't you offer to help? (for the most part). What things are coming up by people migrating to America? I think it's awesome people from other countries come here, share their culture and make America a better place.



Humans are selfish creatures, and I'm counting myself. The minute I key anything on this computer, dress in clothes, buy food, read books, and do everything that a normal human would in this economy, I have become a selfish creature that only thinks of the human race and it's accomplishments

So you think people should be naked? I think for the most part we are not selfish, look at how we are quick to send money for Katrina victims and take them in.


The more the human race increases it's survival rate the more stress you put on every one of the world's animals, plants, and other creatures that live along us

we are also making laws and sanctuaries to protect and help rebuild animals populations.



We get in other nations' own personal affairs with its people and wind up making things worse, we are making issues about borders when this has always been an immigrant country

the hell we're not, bringing supplies and medical aid to other countries is making things worse? You need to get out into the world more. Also we are making issues about borders because there's this thing called applying for and paying for citizenship, not coming here illegally under our radar and perhaps doing harm here, I am all for border control, keeps the right people in the wrong ones out (most of the time of course there are exceptions). Think about it, we open our borders and it's like a flood gate, everyone comes in, none of which we have done backgrounds checks on, you could be letting the wolves in amoung the sheeps.


What would make America better in *your* eyes?

getting rid of the assholes who bash America, reap the benefits but at the same time ridicule and protest against this beautiful country. You don't like the way things are? Stop bitching like a four year old and do something about it, if not get the flying douche out so people who are going to make a difference can come here.

I notice no one has noted the fact that we are a Service nation. Just to clarify, does this mean that we all agree what is suppossed to be "American-made" should be truly "American-made"? Harley Davidson is no longer an American Motrcycle as Japan and I believe a few other countries make the parts.

I agree with that 100%

[greggchamberlain]

actually thought i would leave this thread alone because it seems that the american members of the board are the ones who are entitled to comment but...

we won the WW2...

okay, now first to note and remind all that i have taken ONE single phrase out of ookamiotoko's entire comment (which was i think very thorough and yes, congrats on stating your opinion, ookamiotoko, and i agree with morganafang that there is no reason why you should have any concern about getting banned just because you expressed your opinion...make no apologies for that).

now, the reason that particular phrase leaps out at me is for the most part a personal gripe but there are other people out in the world, i am pretty sure, that all grit their teeth a bit whenever this expression, in various forms, comes up.

the United States of America did NOT win World War Two. The U.S.A. was involved with other allied nations in fighting against the Axis nations and defeating them, thus winning the war for the Allies.

but...my own country Canada was there in both the European Theatre of Operations and the Asian Theatre of Operations (The Siege of Singapore among other places) along our Commonwealth allies in the U.K. and Australia with the French, Chinese, and others more than two years before Dec. 7, 1941 when Pearl Harbour in the Hawaiian Territories was bombed, following which the United States entered the fray, first against Japan and then later against Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy.

i know that a lot of americans do realize that other countries were involved in fighting the Axis. a lot of those veterans my own dad (rest in peace) fought alongside when he was overseas with one of the Canadian Scots machinegun units (his unit's main battles were in Holland during the Liberation of the Netherlands...one of the souvenirs he brought back was a windmill fashioned out of a spent artillery shell).

i apologize but this "we won WW2" thing is one irritating grain of sand that is not going to become a pearl.

[archenemyfan]

I know I'm late but I just have to say one thing....

America before 2000's- Better
America after 2000's- We're heading for WW3 now...

But those are my opinions, fuck sources.

[LucimOfTheMoon]

I know I'm late but I just have to say one thing....

America before 2000's- Better
America after 2000's- We're heading for WW3 now...

But those are my opinions, fuck sources.
arch? Awesome. I'm not being sarcastic, that's what opinion is. I don't need sources, this is how I see it... I love it dude *high fives*

gregg, I agree. As an American, I would like to appologize for our lack to remember that other Allied Nations lost many loved ones in both of the World Wars. No, WE [ie, the USA] did NOT win the WWII. WE, as in, All of the Allied nations as one, did. While America played a role, I believe were it not for nations such as Canada covering our asses, we would have been roasted.

UNO? Thanks, While, yes, international cooperation is necessary. I do believe we should hold some of our customs, and having some true, "American made" items is one we have lost.

I could not find who wrote the part on how we are stressing the Environment [I saw it on one of UNOs quotes], but humans as a whole are working to kep our planet habitable, as we don't yet have the means to recolonize. I can get you the link if necessary [note I don't do it now, because my computer is terrifically slow, and I try not to waste time] bu we have successfully ressurected the Tasmanan Tiger. There is a fetus in a lab right now, waiting to mature.

[UNODRAGONE]

I know I'm late but I just have to say one thing....

America before 2000's- Better
America after 2000's- We're heading for WW3 now...

But those are my opinions, fuck sources.

uh no, the "war" is actually done, been done

arch? Awesome. I'm not being sarcastic, that's what opinion is. I don't need sources, this is how I see it... I love it dude *high fives*

gregg, I agree. As an American, I would like to appologize for our lack to remember that other Allied Nations lost many loved ones in both of the World Wars. No, WE [ie, the USA] did NOT win the WWII. WE, as in, All of the Allied nations as one, did. While America played a role, I believe were it not for nations such as Canada covering our asses, we would have been roasted.

UNO? Thanks, While, yes, international cooperation is necessary. I do believe we should hold some of our customs, and having some true, "American made" items is one we have lost.

I could not find who wrote the part on how we are stressing the Environment [I saw it on one of UNOs quotes], but humans as a whole are working to kep our planet habitable, as we don't yet have the means to recolonize. I can get you the link if necessary [note I don't do it now, because my computer is terrifically slow, and I try not to waste time] bu we have successfully ressurected the Tasmanan Tiger. There is a fetus in a lab right now, waiting to mature.

I understand going to other countries for help in producing stuff is cheaper, but then the whole "made in America" does not applie at least to me, made in America means to me made here, parts here and all. Sad really, we can't seem to make anything here on our own, we send it to other places and help their economies and giving them jobs instead of giving it to our own just cause it's cheaper.

[Tempest]

I know I'm late but I just have to say one thing....

America before 2000's- Better
America after 2000's- We're heading for WW3 now...

But those are my opinions, fuck sources.

Please explain why you feel this way. Not asking for sources, I'm asking for logic.

[dirtyrat]

Lol, teens...
As soon as you reach your twenties you'll be as corrupt as the rest of us in here. Enjoy your goodness while it lasts.
-------- ADDED "edit"
Basically the perceptions from teens (& younger) is why is everything "needed" to be so complex when it's (should be?) easy to tell from right and wrong issues, and thus be free from this human mess of greed, corruption, rich/poor, hungry, etc. Would this world be a better place if run by teenagers? I'd say most likely so (for one thing you can't be a teenager for the rest of your life; you must leave office when reaching adulthood). But then again there would likely be a lot more wars - "Mr. Teen President was seen brawling with Prince so-so of England today over the affections of a girl (or guy/whatever)..."

[Tempest]

Lol, teens...
As soon as you reach your twenties you'll be as corrupt as the rest of us in here. Enjoy your goodness while it lasts.

I must have missed where anyone said that teens were pure...

[dirtyrat]

I must have missed where anyone said that teens were pure...

"...teens are pure - compared to adults of 18 and older.." Uhh, Mad magazine quote I believe. Not sure which issue. :p

Oh, more crimes in public office are commited by adults than are by teenagers. Teenagers commit less crimes in general than adults (perhaps due to the fact that there are LESS teen yrs to live "in" than there are of adult yrs, but we can't be picky -- teenagers need to save the day/century!!)

[ThrasherCub]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/ThrasherCub/Bashing/1208822159105.jpg

[LucimOfTheMoon]

You do realize most teens are fucking evil, myself included? I honestly believe we lose all innosence once we hit 13. My sister [I still call her that even though I left that house 6 months ago] is a prime example of that.

But ultimately, yes, the future relies on anyone 20 yrs or younger, as we will most likely have to make the decisions that shape the Earth the most.

I find it necessary to point out that WWIII *is* quite a ways off unless our next president is a completely idiotic douchebag and declares war for some stupid ass reason. [Though with our choices... highly possible] We will be around long enough to see us kill ourselves [dont ask me how that works, It makes sense in my mind since I know what I mean], but I may have just jinxed us all...

[MorganaFang]

Everyone, no matter the age can be a hellion it all depends on the choices you, as an individual, make. Closeting yourself from the rest of society while clutching a safety blanket of ignorance is not a way to avoid that reality either. I am sorry but I am tired of a guy who pretty appears to be developmentally stunted tut tuting us kids because he allegedly is over 40. Sorry man but age does not suddenly manifest wisdom. Study and especially life experience does and given your admitted removal from normal society growing up you have no right for acting like you have a better understanding of how things work when time and time again this has been shown to be untrue.

[Pickle Tickler]

Humans are selfish creatures, and I'm counting myself. The minute I key anything on this computer, dress in clothes, buy food, read books, and do everything that a normal human would in this economy, I have become a selfish creature that only thinks of the human race and it's acomplishments. For "GOD"'s sake people, what would happen if you were the animals that are constatly being killed in the wild for us to feed on, clothe on, and sell at the market you would feel pretty horrified!


Sure, us humans have the ability to NOT be selfish. But you can't control how people live, you can't say certain people can't have their families and have the resources to support them. That's all any species on this planet ask for. Humans also should not be limited in our growth. These technologies can save not just humans, but other creatures as well, and our planet.

Yes, we have overgrown our population limit for this planet's resources. Nature's way of balancing the equation will likely be a massive increase in the death rate, by starvation and whatnot. It's happened for the last several hundreds of millions of years, ever since life appeared on this strange place.

[BlackRosePhantom]

Hahaha, and TC? Lucim would like to agree... I didn't really think of how bad it was back then too... I think we can safely agree the new America is better, so instead of starting a new thread, I'd like to put this out...

What would make America better in *your* eyes?

Please, as in politics, bashing is to be expected, but keep it above the belt. :p

The federal legalization of homosexual marriage. To not have one's sexuality determine if you can or can not be in the army (though personally, I like I use my sexuality as an excuse not to go over to war, but I know other homos that wish to stand up and fight for their country, and I might change my mind about fighting for the US depending on whom are president is in 08).

Also, dirtyrat, do not call me, or any other teen, pure. 'Pure' is pretty hard to find, in any age group, let alone teens. There are a few teens, and if I were religious, I would say that they go to the worst part of hell imaginable. Purity is not defined by age, and the part of life where an individual becomes the most corrupt, is not the same for everyone or even close to it. Some people slowly get more corrupt as they get older and experience different things, and other get 'purer' as life leads them though their experiences.

[UNODRAGONE]

The federal legalization of homosexual marriage. To not have one's sexuality determine if you can or can not be in the army (though personally, I like I use my sexuality as an excuse not to go over to war, but I know other homos that wish to stand up and fight for their country, and I might change my mind about fighting for the US depending on whom are president is in 08).

Also, dirtyrat, do not call me, or any other teen, pure. 'Pure' is pretty hard to find, in any age group, let alone teens. There are a few teens, and if I were religious, I would say that they go to the worst part of hell imaginable. Purity is not defined by age, and the part of life where an individual becomes the most corrupt, is not the same for everyone or even close to it. Some people slowly get more corrupt as they get older and experience different things, and other get 'purer' as life leads them though their experiences.

legalizing it and recognizing it :) I think it is a profound thing to find the person your meant to love, if you want to call something pure, I would say real love is pure :) I honestly wasn't aware gays weren't allowed in the military????? One of my platoon members was gay, then again he wasn't out right about it either and I never did ask him why. I think that is bullshit, your an American, by right and duty you should have the right to defend your country

[LucimOfTheMoon]

legalizing it and recognizing it :) I think it is a profound thing to find the person your meant to love, if you want to call something pure, I would say real love is pure :) I honestly wasn't aware gays weren't allowed in the military????? One of my platoon members was gay, then again he wasn't out right about it either and I never did ask him why. I think that is bullshit, your an American, by right and duty you should have the right to defend your country
Damn straight. I doesn't matter what you like in bed, if you want to prove your country means something to you, than thats what matters. I have a gay friend, and he pwns at Airsoft.

I'm tired of people thinking that gay people can't do the same stuff as a heterosexual. Half of the time, I don't even remeber Alex is gay. People need to get their heads out of their asses and start thinking of how others feel.

[Pickle Tickler]

We live in a narcissitic society. The general misconception with gays is that the people of the same sex are horny for everyone that has the same sexual organs with them, so they are ostrasized.

I don't have a problem with homosexuality, the only parts that bother me are when people start changing their sex. I don't mean to offend people on here, because I know some of you have transexual friends. In my opinion, it's better to be gay than to make such a choice.

[LucimOfTheMoon]

We live in a narcissitic society. The general misconception with gays is that the people of the same sex are horny for everyone that has the same sexual organs with them, so they are ostrasized.

I don't have a problem with homosexuality, the only parts that bother me are when people start changing their sex. I don't mean to offend people on here, because I know some of you have transexual friends. In my opinion, it's better to be gay than to make such a choice.
I hang out with Alex whenever I can, because he is a cool guy. The only times we notice he's any different are the following:

1] At the mall... here's how it would go...
[Aaron: "Wow... 9.2... just a little tall..."
Jerron: "Hmm... 9.0... no ass...
Alex: "9.0, he's a little short."
*5 second silence*
Aaron: "Hey! The Halo 3 Legendary map packs out! Check it!"]

2] When he has his BF over. it's no big deal, it just reminds us.

3] The one time we walked in on him kissing his BF. It was our fault though, we didn't knock.

Other than that, we never notice a difference. He is one of the coolest people you will ever meet. He doesn't hit on us, we're his homies. What I don't get, is why people think that when someone is gay, they automatically hit on anyone with of the same gender. They don't. Alex is proof. He has a BF whom he wants more than anything to marry, and it pisses all of us off that he can't.

Anyway, I just dispise the fact that we can sit here and laugh about a celebrity who comes out after 40 frikin years, but we can't let those who have openly shown themselves their whole life, live their lives to the fullest.

[greggchamberlain]

I hang out with Alex whenever I can, because he is a cool guy...He is one of the coolest people you will ever meet. He doesn't hit on us, we're his homies. What I don't get, is why people think that when someone is gay, they automatically hit on anyone with of the same gender. They don't. Alex is proof. He has a BF whom he wants more than anything to marry, and it pisses all of us off that he can't.


Canada.

find any compass, follow the direction the little arrow points. please avoid any construction or demolition sites where they are using magnet cranes for removal/moving of scrap metal (buggers up your compass something fierce).

or when you get up in the morning, check which direction the sun is. face the sun then turn 90 degrees left, start walking in that direction.

keep going until you either see your first Mountie, find a Tim Horton's where the display menu is in both French and English, or you meet with someone who apologizes when You step on His foot by accident.

:D

then just go look up Marriage Commissioner (or maybe Justice of the Peace) in the nearest phone book, get your greenbacks exchanged for loonies so you can pay for the licence (and quit grousing about the exchange rate...you guys had it good all those years, now it's our turn...:D ).

Niagara Falls is still the traditional honeymoon spot though weekend camping honeymoons are also popular (avoid Ontario during black fly season though, unless you like the "chopped liver" look).

try the poutine, sample some Nanaimo bars, but please do not try to sneak our five-per-cent-base-rate-alcohol-content beer back home with you. we are getting tired of complaints from Washington D.C. about Homeland Security staff getting "bombed" during their border duty shifts while doing "special inspections" of confiscated contraband seized from returning American citizens.

:D

[dirtyrat]

I simply noticed that two of our members that had posted in this thread were teenagers, did post grief on our American system, and it made me remember my confusion/perception on the corrupt & complicated system of it all -- when I was A TEENAGER myself.


Well Morgan, if I'm the guy with the blanket then you must be Lucy. Being a mature 41 I'll have to say that I forgive you for your young vemonous nature; maturity will eventually cure you of that poison (I hope). :)


You do realize most teens are fucking evil, myself included? I honestly believe we lose all innosence once we hit 13. My sister [I still call her that even though I left that house 6 months ago] is a prime example of that. This evil sister of yours - is she perhaps lurking on the internet diguised as a mod on an discussion board? If so then I think I have unintentional found her. :(

[greggchamberlain]

you just live to egg the kids on, don't you, bud?

;) :D

[dirtyrat]

you just live to egg the kids on, don't you, bud?

;) :D

These children toilet papered MY house (and others I can quite imagine) LONG before I got started. And I'm glad that someone in here can read inbetween my lines for their meanings. I can almost imagine (but not quite) if I had posted that I think 5 yr olds were better suited to run our governments, then they still would post their exact same replies. :p

[ThrasherCub]

And I'm glad that someone in here can read inbetween my lines for their meanings.
And I'm glad that such a simple concept as the egging on statement can go right over your head.

[MorganaFang]

For one of the few times I kept my post clean of any insults or slander and said what was true. What do I get? A perpetuation of negativity. Rat, now you are the one demonstrating adolescent behavior with name calling and cartoon character association. If I were you I would try demonstrating the maturity of your years so maybe you can earn the respect of those younger peers. Instead of getting below their level and fighting with them.

[BlackRosePhantom]

I don't have a problem with homosexuality, the only parts that bother me are when people start changing their sex. I don't mean to offend people on here, because I know some of you have transexual friends. In my opinion, it's better to be gay than to make such a choice.

Now you're confusing homosexuality with transexuality. Transexuals could be straight or homosexual in there birth gender and then switch after they go through with their change. Transexuals feel an innate feeling that their inner gender, or true gender, isn't their birth gender and really just look at their bodies and go 'ew'.

[chriz]

Transexuals feel an innate feeling that their inner gender, or true gender, isn't their birth gender and really just look at their bodies and go 'ew'.

AKA "heterosexuality"

[dirtyrat]

For one of the few times I kept my post clean of any insults or slander and said what was true. What do I get? A perpetuation of negativity. Rat, now you are the one demonstrating adolescent behavior with name calling and cartoon character association. If I were you I would try demonstrating the maturity of your years so maybe you can earn the respect of those younger peers. Instead of getting below their level and fighting with them.
*pouts* - "You started it!"
----------------
Anyway, I think our government system is so HUGE and complicated ( I've only mentioned this 3 times now ) that it will never be fixed. I mean has anyone here ever even tried to figure out the ins/outs of our tax system? For some reason everything must be changed every year. Until I or a moron can understand anything government related, then it must be redone into simple Simon stuff.
Thank you.
-----
(now your egging me on; aren't you TC?)

[Pickle Tickler]

Now you're confusing homosexuality with transexuality. Transexuals could be straight or homosexual in there birth gender and then switch after they go through with their change. Transexuals feel an innate feeling that their inner gender, or true gender, isn't their birth gender and really just look at their bodies and go 'ew'.

I'm not confusing the two. I was merely remarking on the phenomenon that when certain people come to the realization that they are gay (or in some cases, decide to be gay), they take it too far and go to surgical means to try and correct their gender.

I'm not saying all transexuals go to these measures for the same reasons.

[Vendetta]

I'm not confusing the two. I was merely remarking on the phenomenon that when certain people come to the realization that they are gay (or in some cases, decide to be gay), they take it too far and go to surgical means to try and correct their gender.

I'm not saying all transexuals go to these measures for the same reasons.
Uh yeah you ARE confusing the two. Gay people WANT to be the gender they are, they just like folks of the same gender. Transexuals can be EITHER sexual orientation, but identify with a different gender than what they were physiologically born with.

[Pickle Tickler]

No, I'm not. Some gay people are unhappy with themselves, to the point where they wish to become socially acceptable (straight), so they resort to an operation.

[Galliard]

No, I'm not. Some gay people are unhappy with themselves, to the point where they wish to become socially acceptable (straight), so they resort to an operation.

It would be well of you to also point out that this isn't the only reason why people have the operation. There are those who genuinely believe that they ARE the opposite gender, so much so that they have the surgery to correct their physical form. I know of someone online who was a male, but believed herself to be female, but was still into chicks. Therefore, she was a lesbian trapped in a male's body. Now that she's had her surgery and become female, she is simply a lesbian in a woman's body.

[Vendetta]

No, I'm not. Some gay people are unhappy with themselves, to the point where they wish to become socially acceptable (straight), so they resort to an operation.
I call bullshit. Do you have any evidence that this happens anywhere but in places where homosexuality is so frowned upon, it's generally met with death?

Because I've got news for you, gender reassignment surgery is VERY expensive and generally entails talking to a qualified therapists before it can happen. This isn't some outpatient surgery that they do in a couple of hours, 'snip snip.'

[Pickle Tickler]

I call bullshit. Do you have any evidence that this happens anywhere but in places where homosexuality is so frowned upon, it's generally met with death?

Because I've got news for you, gender reassignment surgery is VERY expensive and generally entails talking to a qualified therapists before it can happen. This isn't some outpatient surgery that they do in a couple of hours, 'snip snip.'

I realize that. Hell, that's why so many people have a hard time paying for the whole procedure. Some never end up getting to pay for the whole thing, and walk around half-finished for the rest of their lives.

Death isn't the worst that can happen. In America, it's not officially illegal, or frowned upon by the media, but there are some intolerant men and women in this country that go out and perform hate crimes. I mean, fuck, we have the Phelps family right here in Kansas. Have you ever heard of the Phelps?

[ThrasherCub]

I call bullshit. Do you have any evidence that this happens anywhere but in places where homosexuality is so frowned upon, it's generally met with death?

Because I've got news for you, gender reassignment surgery is VERY expensive and generally entails talking to a qualified therapists before it can happen. This isn't some outpatient surgery that they do in a couple of hours, 'snip snip.'

Massively agreed. In all my time interacting with the GLBT population here in the S.F. area I've never come across that or ever heard of that.

While there are those which are pressured into having a straight life the sources of those pressures also have a tendency to be just as against a shift in gender. If your parents dislike that you're gay do you think they will suddenly accept you because you've up and developed a vagina? In many cases that would be viewed as worse because it's fairly permanent. Further, many gay people would rather be forced into a straight relationship than change their gender. After all, think of how many are in straight marriages for whatever reason.

Being gay - Determines what gender you want your partner to bed.

Being trans - Determines what gender you want yourself to be.

Period. While many people take their desires from one and combine them with the desires of the other, the two are quite separate entities and don't generally influence each other.

Some never end up getting to pay for the whole thing, and walk around half-finished for the rest of their lives.
Some only want to be changed that far. This is especially true of women becoming men since while you can turn a vagina into a penis it's usually a pretty lame penis. It's just easier to keep the vagina.

[blueeyes]

I've encountered a few. The Pride global channel in City of Heroes had a male individual considering the hormone part of things (seemed okay with being physically male, some possible dysphoria about secondary characteristics), and complete elective cases aren't unheard of in the textbooks. Of course, the opposite -- someone changing their legal gender and approaching a newly homosexual relationship, such as in the recent and overhyped 'pregnant gay man' -- is far from rare, either. I doubt you'd have difficulty finding a few other examples, although for the sanity of everyone involved I'd avoid linking directly to them.

Human sexuality is impressively varied.

That said, most Western shrinks won't provide a diagnosis of gender identity disorder, and thus won't even consider sex reassignment therapy or similar procedures, for individuals due to sexuality alone. That sorta stuff is often avoided even in those with gender identity disorders when potential alternatives are available. It's also nowhere near as common as it is under regimes like Iran (where homosexual anal sex is punishable by death while sex reassignment surgery is government subsidized) or pre-1970 America and Britain (homosexuality treated as a mental condition and chemical castration/feminization advocated). Outside of those goofy parades, I don't think it's prevalent enough to be meaningful on discussions of the whole demographic.

[LucimOfTheMoon]

The Internet: the only place you can start a thread on America's government, and end up discussing transexuality. Thnk you Al Gore... ^_^

Sarcasm: the funniest ticket to an asswhoopin' this side of mom-bashing... ^_^


WW.com: ... no coment...

Haha, sorrry, had to do it, I'm in a good mood ^_^

Okay, just to kinda hit he switch and get us back on track, and so I don't just waste room and fill up the internets ^_^ what do you think will happen if Obama gets presidancy?

In all honsety? No big deal. People act like because someone with black skin is runing our country, the White house is gona become some sort of night club... That's what we get for allowing rednecks and hicks to appear on the news. I feel that, yes there will be political changes [i.e.- Pull out of Iraq, even though I have mixed felings on this; Help those struggling w/o simply giving them from our paycheck [if you can read between the lines, many of his propsitions come down to his, which I agree with wholeheartedly], as well as Renewable Energy-use-ful-ness-icity... ^_^] But I believe that Obama would be a good leader. At first I had my doubts due to lack of experience, but upon further review, I believe he will help us.

PS I'm not a democrat, nor a Republican. I simply look for who will help us as a nation, be they Republican, Democrat, or third party.