Christianity: The Personal Relationship with God

[dwulf]

Hello people. I would like to apologize in advance for anything that I might say in this to offend anyone. I have mad respect for all religions as long as they are conducted in a peaceful way. I am personally an agnostic, and for that reason I find myself very alone in the world. I believe in a higher power but that's it. I don't go any further with it. And because of this I have lost almost all of my friends and two lovers. They abandoned me because I didn't have really well established "relationship" with God. I was told that despite the fact that I am a genuinely good guy that it would count for nothing if I don't accept Jesus christ as my lord and savior. My last girlfriend actually dumped me because I respect all religions and that I did not fully except hers as the one and only true one. Now, I'm not poking fun at Christians. My best friend is a Christian but she's never tried to make me something that I'm not. Now is it truly fair to condemn others or abandon them simply because they do not see the world through the same eyes as you. The way I see it, we're all outcasts and we can't be there for each other when were fighting over beliefs, you feel me?

[Pickle Tickler]

Yep. I feel you. Just don't double post the same thread and we're on the same page.

[UNODRAGONE]

those people didn't deserve your friendship/lpve. Anyone who tries to change anyone should be poked to death with a hot poker. Your not alone for that, your just surrounded by idiots

[dwulf]

Thanks. And sorry about the double posting. You can tell that I'm new because I don't even know what double posting is. But I'm learning as I go. Anyway, back to the topic.
I've gone to Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptist, and Protestant churches and I here the same things from all of them. I mean, they are all Christian-based from what I understand, yet they seem to condemned even each other.
The last church I attended, which was with my ex, they claimed that their faith was not a religion but a relationship with God on a personal level. Yet the entire church is prejudiced towards gays and lesbians. They even called one of my gay friends an abomination. Personally, I think that shit is just beyond cruel.
When, I heard one of them whisper that all homosexuals should be round up and killed, I just absolutely refused to accept such a cruel faith. And for that, they saw me as a heathen. So much for being closer to God.
I think your relationship with God or whatever deity(ies) are in question are between the worshiper and the aforementioned supreme being(s). It is no one else's business.

[UNODRAGONE]

Thanks. And sorry about the double posting. You can tell that I'm new because I don't even know what double posting is. But I'm learning as I go. Anyway, back to the topic.
I've gone to Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptist, and Protestant churches and I here the same things from all of them. I mean, they are all Christian-based from what I understand, yet they seem to condemned even each other.
The last church I attended, which was with my ex, they claimed that their faith was not a religion but a relationship with God on a personal level. Yet the entire church is prejudiced towards gays and lesbians. They even called one of my gay friends an abomination. Personally, I think that shit is just beyond cruel.
When, I heard one of them whisper that all homosexuals should be round up and killed, I just absolutely refused to accept such a cruel faith. And for that, they saw me as a heathen. So much for being closer to God.
I think your relationship with God or whatever deity(ies) are in question are between the worshiper and the aforementioned supreme being(s). It is no one else's business.


you are so full of win for that statement :) it's YOUR faith no one has the right to tell you how to play it out. I am incredibly strong willed, your not gonna change me and I will be damned if you try and put me into a box that suits you. I was raised Catholic, believe in most of it but that whole church and bible thing I don't concern myself with. Just a way for the church to make money and men to 'claim' control over other people

[dwulf]

You, my friend, are awesome.

[UNODRAGONE]

You, my friend, are awesome.

(big hugs) you will find a lot of people on this site believe in a higher power but to actually label themselves as one religion, nah. So you my friend are very much not alone with that :)

[dwulf]

You don't know how good you made me feel, just then. This may sound weird to you but this site was named appropriately. You see, like the werewolf(no, I'm not claiming to be one), I feel like a total freak. The people on this site make me feel like I have a place to go to when the outside world rejects me. I would like to personally thank you and everyone else who makes this site feel like a home away from home.

Anyway, this is on subject, but it strays a little. That girl that I was telling you about. Well, she's bisexual, but hides it from the church because they have condemned her for it already. Before she dated me she dated mostly females. This of coarse led to a whole storm of shit with her parents and her church.

Although she says otherwise, I think that the only reason she dated me was so that people would stop giving her shit about dating women. I feel as if her church forced her into a corner and she felt that she had no other alternative but to date a guy so that people would stop telling her that she was going to go to hell for her sexuality. This led to me being hurt in the process. Her church causes more harm to people than good but she believes anything they tell her and when they suggested that she break up with me, she did. That was the ultimate stab in the back.

[john the baptist]

I have a question. What denomination was your girlfriend?

[ThrasherCub]

The last church I attended, which was with my ex, they claimed that their faith was not a religion but a relationship with God on a personal level. Yet the entire church is prejudiced towards gays and lesbians. They even called one of my gay friends an abomination. Personally, I think that shit is just beyond cruel.

Faith may be a relationship with God, but religion is dogma.

I can genuinly understand not being able to be with someone if their beliefs are not somewhat aligned with mine, but certainly not for failing to hold my religion up as supreme.

In being dumped for such a poor reason I promise that all you lost was a chance for a sad future.

[dwulf]

I have a question. What denomination was your girlfriend?

I believe the correct term is Pentacostal, although they merely refer to themselves as Christian. They say that it is not a religion but a personal relationship with God. They say that religion is the gateway to Hell and that their way is the only true way to salvation.

[dwulf]

I have a question. What denomination was your girlfriend?

They don't let her or any of the kids at that church do a damn thing that isn't church related and I feel bad for them. But it's not my place to tell them how to live.

[john the baptist]

They sound mean to me. Also Her breaking up with you becasue you didn't believe her religion is the only religion, that sucks. If I dated a catholic I wouldn't try and change her to my religion, they're close enoough for me. My point is the fact you believe in a higher power should have been good enough.

[dwulf]

The youth pastor of that church was a freaking loon. He said that she had done so, so that we could align ourselves better with the Heavenly Father. Every time I see him in public, I have to restrain the urge to unleash the dragon on him. He was the one who pushed her to take the action.
And her dad claimed that I was bringing the devil into the house of the lord. A Catholic priest said that about me once and that was the reason I stopped going to church in the first place.
Anyway, I don't think it's fair when pseudo-Christians like these guys preach their own thoughts and beliefs and put God's name on it. That makes it that much harder for the real Christians to be taken seriously or trusted; the latter I say with regret.
If you don't like something, fine. Just don't push your brain into someone else's head.

[-behemoth-]

Thanks. And sorry about the double posting. You can tell that I'm new because I don't even know what double posting is. But I'm learning as I go. Anyway, back to the topic.
I've gone to Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptist, and Protestant churches and I here the same things from all of them. I mean, they are all Christian-based from what I understand, yet they seem to condemned even each other.
The last church I attended, which was with my ex, they claimed that their faith was not a religion but a relationship with God on a personal level. Yet the entire church is prejudiced towards gays and lesbians. They even called one of my gay friends an abomination. Personally, I think that shit is just beyond cruel.
When, I heard one of them whisper that all homosexuals should be round up and killed, I just absolutely refused to accept such a cruel faith. And for that, they saw me as a heathen. So much for being closer to God.
I think your relationship with God or whatever deity(ies) are in question are between the worshiper and the aforementioned supreme being(s). It is no one else's business.

I am Christian and I would never do or say that to anyone...
Those who say such things and still consider themselves Christians are being extremely hypocritical

[john the baptist]

About the mentioning of homosexuality, my denomination of Christianity says "hate the sin, love the sinner." So, according to my religion, they're way out of line.

[LV426]

For such a personal relationship with god they sure like to share it with everyone. Perhaps they need to have the word "personal" defined.

[dwulf]

They are a bunch of fruit cakes. They are far beyond religious fanatics and have entered the territory of religious nuts. And my ex is no different. Don't get me wrong, I love her dearly but they've totally gotten into her head.
Just the other day she told me that she didn't need anyone but her church and that she didn't need me. All I was doing was trying to be civil with her and try to hold a non-church related conversation. That was out of the question.
I just hope that I don't turn on the news one day and find out that she was one of those people who drank the kool-aid.

[Vendetta]

I am personally an agnostic, and for that reason I find myself very alone in the world. I believe in a higher power but that's it. I don't go any further with it.
You're not an agnostic dude, you're a theist/deist.

And because of this I have lost almost all of my friends and two lovers. They abandoned me because I didn't have really well established "relationship" with God. I was told that despite the fact that I am a genuinely good guy that it would count for nothing if I don't accept Jesus christ as my lord and savior. My last girlfriend actually dumped me because I respect all religions and that I did not fully except hers as the one and only true one.
Funny how Christians are all about the "turning the other cheek" until it really comes to brass tacks. Also, if you lost almost all your friends because of your religion, I'd say they probably weren't your friends in the first place.

My best friend is a Christian but she's never stopped being my friend because I don't think like her.
See, you need more friends like her.

Now is it truly fair to condemn others or abandon them simply because they do not see the world through the same eyes as you. The way I see it, we're all outcasts and we can't be there for each other when we're fighting over beliefs, you feel me?
No it's not fair, but as they say, them's the breaks kid.

[dirtyrat]

As far as I'm concerned - people who are that deep into their own beliefs tend to be an entirely different race of people; cutting themselves off from the rest of humanity. I have a cousin who went on one date with a young woman, but that's as far as it could go; according to her religion she was only allowed to connect with someone of her own exact faith and/or church.

There is just way too many werid American people (groups). I sometimes wonder if we top everyone else (other countries) in the number of different groups.

[DarkHunter]

The Pentecostals are my favorite brand of Christians. Ever seen them with the "holy spirit?" The running around, the screaming, the speaking in tongues, the rolling in the floors. It is probably the most hilarious thing...EVER. I remember my friend took a video of a grown woman of about forty, running around church screaming. The youth pastor asked what was so funny. He didn't see the obvious.

Generally speaking, they're not kool aid drinkers so I wouldn't worry about it too much. And if she does, well so be it. Darwinism removes another idiot from the world.

Anybody who professes to "love" everybody unconditionally, but will advocate execution (or say will not move to prevent eternal damnation when its in their power) is a liar and an ass (or a self contradicting principle).

On a quick note, just because Christians don't like you, doesn't mean I have to.

[Golden Howl]

(Note to reader: I am not talking to anyone on here, just ranting about my dislike of fake Christians)

Sigh, I am highly frustrated by people who are like the ones you speak of, because they are giving the world a false sense of what Christians are truly like. Once, an old friend of mine invited me to her small church, and they had a special pastor who was visiting for a short while. He began screaming and slamming his fist against everything. He spoke of homosexuals in a rude manner, and I seriously wanted to blow the guy's brains out. :mad:
That's the problem around here, if Christians ridicule people who aren't like them, then how are they any better than the simple cliques at an average highschool? How can that be called a loving way of life? You aren't suppose to change people, it's their choice. The only thing you're suppose to worry about is yourself & your relationship with God. COME ON, CHRISTIANS ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO BE BASHING OTHER PEOPLE AROUND, AND MAKING THEM TO FEEL WORTHLESS JUST BECAUSE THEY DON'T SHARE THE SAME RELIGION!!!!! :mad: WE ARE ALL EQUAL. JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN DOESN'T MAKE YOU ANY BETTER THAN THE AVERAGE PERSON NEXT TO YOU!!!!! Christians are suppose to set an example and inspire people to join them, not to force them!! Grrrrr......I have a million of friends who aren't Christians! For cryin' out loud my best friend is bisexual and not even a Christian, and I love her to death! If you ever run into a "Christian" who acts all snobbish, bashes homosexuals, and crap of the such, then they are not true Christians. Sincere followers of Christ are humble and loving to all, they're like UNODRAGONE for example.

[Gilenea]

He spoke of homosexuals in a rude manner, and I seriously wanted to blow the guy's brains out.

How Christian of you.

Gil

[Pickle Tickler]

I pretty much hate the generalization in America, period. People say the Muslims are so bad, but how are these so-called Christians any different from that image of Islam that we are given in place of the original, peaceful practice of the religion?

[DarkHunter]

Here's a thought.....maybe fanatics are the problem. Christian, Muslim, Atheist.

Fanaticism, Evangelism. Plagues upon humanity.

[Vendetta]

Here's a thought.....maybe fanatics are the problem. Christian, Muslim, Atheist.

Fanaticism, Evangelism. Plagues upon humanity.
Uhh but they're pretty unavoidable, although I've seen less fanatics in atheism than anywhere else. I'd point out that people like Hutchins (whom I personally loathe) are just outspoken jerks, not really fanatics. I don't recall any atheist groups bombing churches or what not. Which is, sadly, more than I can say for some people with religious affiliation.

[MorganaFang]

Uhh but they're pretty unavoidable, although I've seen less fanatics in atheism than anywhere else. I'd point out that people like Hutchins (whom I personally loathe) are just outspoken jerks, not really fanatics. I don't recall any atheist groups bombing churches or what not. Which is, sadly, more than I can say for some people with religious affiliation.

I want to start seeing fanatical agnostics. It would all just be bunch of yelling "YOU JUST DON'T KNOW, GUYS!! YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!"

[punxnotdead]

I am a Christian, but I always like to keep an open mind and respect other people's religion. The way I think of it is that people are entitled to believe whatever they wish, and nothing I can do is going to persuade them.
I have an athiest friend, who really doesn't like any form of religion. Though I respect her opinion, I often get offended by her anti-christian ramblings and have to tell her to stop. I don't believe in breaking up with someone or abandoning them as a friend because of religion.

Also, I agree about the feuding amongst different forms of Christianity. I just stick to the bible and leave it at that.

[UNODRAGONE]

I am a Christian, but I always like to keep an open mind and respect other people's religion. The way I think of it is that people are entitled to believe whatever they wish, and nothing I can do is going to persuade them.
I have an athiest friend, who really doesn't like any form of religion. Though I respect her opinion, I often get offended by her anti-christian ramblings and have to tell her to stop. I don't believe in breaking up with someone or abandoning them as a friend because of religion.

Also, I agree about the feuding amongst different forms of Christianity. I just stick to the bible and leave it at that.

I have a friend that is athiest as well and the first thing we agreed on when I found out he was was that I would never push my beliefs onto him and he wouldn't be negative about mine, I've actually trained myself not to say bless you when he sneezes lol we respect eachother so it works

[punxnotdead]

I have a friend that is athiest as well and the first thing we agreed on when I found out he was was that I would never push my beliefs onto him and he wouldn't be negative about mine, I've actually trained myself not to say bless you when he sneezes lol we respect eachother so it works

We haven't quite established that yet, and she always gets snappy whenever I ask her to drop it.

[Destiny]

Thanks. And sorry about the double posting. You can tell that I'm new because I don't even know what double posting is. But I'm learning as I go. Anyway, back to the topic.
I've gone to Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptist, and Protestant churches and I here the same things from all of them. I mean, they are all Christian-based from what I understand, yet they seem to condemned even each other.
The last church I attended, which was with my ex, they claimed that their faith was not a religion but a relationship with God on a personal level. Yet the entire church is prejudiced towards gays and lesbians. They even called one of my gay friends an abomination. Personally, I think that shit is just beyond cruel.
When, I heard one of them whisper that all homosexuals should be round up and killed, I just absolutely refused to accept such a cruel faith. And for that, they saw me as a heathen. So much for being closer to God.
I think your relationship with God or whatever deity(ies) are in question are between the worshiper and the aforementioned supreme being(s). It is no one else's business.
Right you are. I'm a Christian and I would never push my religion on anyone, or say that about lesbians and gays...I have friends that are gay and lesbian...And it isn't anyone else's business. It's between you and God...or whatever higher power you choose to believe in.

[dwulf]

Yeah man. They are nice people in their own way. But they are nuts. As I mentioned before, they have their own beliefs and, because they have a false sense of superiority through "God", they put God's name on it and claim it is true.

For example. At one church I went to, the pastor claimed that if you didn't give tithes and offerings that God would curse you. He said that the money that you offer was not your money but God's money and that you're paying back a loan. And I'm sitting there thinking, "What the hell kind of bullshit is that?"

Then he continues to talk. He spoke of all the hardships that befall those who aren't christians. Then he spoke of how christians should take heart through the bad times because it is merely a test of faith. So I asked myself,"Did he just say that if bad things happen to you and you're not a Christian that God is cursing you but if bad things happen and you are a Christian, then God's just testing you. What the HELL?"

Oh, and let me not forget the time when they said when something bad happens, thank God anyway because he is merely trying to make you stronger. So, you should thank God that you're only child has been diagnosed with terminal cancer. Yeah, that makes a lot of damn sense.

[DarkHunter]

Yeah man. They are nice people in their own way. But they are nuts. As I mentioned before, they have their own beliefs and, because they have a false sense of superiority through "God", they put God's name on it and claim it is true.

For example. At one church I went to, the pastor claimed that if you didn't give tithes and offerings that God would curse you. He said that the money that you offer was not your money but God's money and that you're paying back a loan. And I'm sitting there thinking, "What the hell kind of bullshit is that?"

Then he continues to talk. He spoke of all the hardships that befall those who aren't christians. Then he spoke of how christians should take heart through the bad times because it is merely a test of faith. So I asked myself,"Did he just say that if bad things happen to you and you're not a Christian that God is cursing you but if bad things happen and you are a Christian, then God's just testing you. What the HELL?"

Oh, and let me not forget the time when they said when something bad happens, thank God anyway because he is merely trying to make you stronger. So, you should thank God that you're only child has been diagnosed with terminal cancer. Yeah, that makes a lot of damn sense.

I have a sense of superiority because I AM God.

I think lack of an afterlife and/or reward keeps atheists from bombing buildings and making complete assholes out of themselves.

But they sure do their best with what they have sometimes.

[dwulf]

[QUOTE=Vendetta;28992 2]You're not an agnostic dude, you're a theist/deist.

I'm a theist/deist. Holy crap. Remind me to give myself a nice, long Rick James slap later.

[dwulf]

[QUOTE=DarkHunter;290 308]I have a sense of superiority because I AM God.

(Tilts head and squints)Okay homie. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[dwulf]

About the whole relationship with God thing. Why does it have to be this picture perfect thing that they claim it should be. No such thing as a perfect relationship with anyone, God included. I mean people are so afraid that if they question one thing about God, they're gonna burn in a lake of fire for all eternity. Dude, screw that shit. If I have questions, I ask. Of coarse, I never get an answer.

[punxnotdead]

I always ask and they come up with very logical and factual answers. Perhaps it depends who you're asking. Some churches are more open than others with giving answers. At my church, I've never heard my pastor say that bad things will befall those who aren't christians, until his return, at least.
There's alot of man-made rules in some churches and all you have to do is wade through the useless, irrelevant stuff until you find what is actually stated in the bible.

[ThrasherCub]

I have a sense of superiority because I AM God.

(Tilts head and squints)Okay homie. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Hey, the belief in being God isn't such an odd concept as you seem to think.

PS, I am God harder than you can imagine.

[dwulf]

I always ask and they come up with very logical and factual answers. Perhaps it depends who you're asking. Some churches are more open than others with giving answers. At my church, I've never heard my pastor say that bad things will befall those who aren't christians, until his return, at least.
There's alot of man-made rules in some churches and all you have to do is wade through the useless, irrelevant stuff until you find what is actually stated in the bible.

You're not wrong about that. Some really are more open while others have their own agenda. This, like a lot of things in the world, vary on the individual. That is exactly why I don't expect everyone to be the same, nor do I want them to be. The world would be bland. But you are so right.

[dwulf]

Hey, the belief in being God isn't such an odd concept as you seem to think.

PS, I am God harder than you can imagine.

Y'all are crazy. But that's a good thing. Crazy is good. It means you're not a mindless zombie masquerading as a person.

[john the baptist]

Brains... Brains.

Sorry the zombies just arrived.

[dwulf]

Brains... Brains.

Sorry the zombies just arrived.

LMAO. This just keeps getting better and better. I've gotta visit this site more.

[john the baptist]

Yeah we're full of win and caek.

[dwulf]

Someone at one of these "psycho churches" told me that we shouldn't want anything. He said that we should only want God. He told me to search my heart and forget what I want to do and start doing what God wants me to do. He said that God doesn't want you to be happy, he wants you to be saved. He told us to make ourselves God's slaves and we will be blessed abundantly. To elaborate, he claimed that everything I do should be for the benefit of THEIR church in one way shape or form. Oh yeah. Well no offense God, but I'm no one's bitch, not even yours. I'd rather be free in hell than a slave in heaven.

You know what. For any real Christians out there, I am terribly sorry. You guys, as well as every other religion, have been thrown in with a bag of nuts and no one is willing to try to tell the difference. It's so much harder for you to inspire people about your faith because of the aforementioned jackasses take it too far. It's so sad. They really are nice people, but they're just a bit misguided as to what their own faith is all about.

However, all of this is taking place in Louisiana, where I live. We haven't had a reputation for being the sharpest tools in the shed. Maybe all the imbreeding finally f'ed them up for good. Who knows?

One more thing to consider. I noticed many of these churches are predatory in nature. What I mean is that they target the weak. They make a shitload of promises to those who have been through a lot and spring their latent trap. And we all know, when things get bad enough, some of us(myself included) will turn to whomever provides a solution. And if I used whomever in the wrong context, remember, I'm from Louisiana.

[ThrasherCub]

Y'all are crazy. But that's a good thing. Crazy is good. It means you're not a mindless zombie masquerading as a person.

It's not crazy, it's a legitimate belief. I could explain it to you as it exists in Thelema if you wish.

LMAO. This just keeps getting better and better. I've gotta visit this site more.
You're damn right you should! You're startin' to see why I've been here for years - the general kickassery of it all.

That, and to worship Gil.

[Golden Howl]

Someone at one of these "psycho churches" told me that we shouldn't want anything. He said that we should only want God. He told me to search my heart and forget what I want to do and start doing what God wants me to do. He said that God doesn't want you to be happy, he wants you to be saved. He told us to make ourselves God's slaves and we will be blessed abundantly. To elaborate, he claimed that everything I do should be for the benefit of THEIR church in one way shape or form. Oh yeah. Well no offense God, but I'm no one's bitch, not even yours. I'd rather be free in hell than a slave in heaven.

:eek: Get away from those churches NOW. They are nothing but a bunch of lies, period. That is the most pathetic load of bologna, I have ever heard. Last time I checked, the church was suppose to benefit the people, not the other way around. Sure, people eventually benefit the church by their own will, because they like the place & because the church satisfied their needs first. And even if the attenders don't give anything in return, the church should be joyful because they are serving God's people and directing them towards the heavenly path.

[ThrasherCub]

:eek: Get away from those churches NOW. They are nothing but a bunch of lies, period. That is the most pathetic load of bologna, I have ever heard. Last time I checked, the church was suppose to benefit the people, not the other way around.

Yeah, dwulf. Reading that post I got serious flashbacks to when I read a book about cult tactics.

Don't drink their Kool-Aid or anything.

[john the baptist]

"Mommy why'd you add green powder to the kool-aid?" "Hush up and drink sweety." Mother's eye twitches twice.

Anyway, I thought God wanted both. I never heard we're supposed to be unhappy.

[ThrasherCub]

Anyway, I thought God wanted both. I never heard we're supposed to be unhappy.

That's always what I thought too. Evidently many people derive pleasure from believing they suck and that God is a jerk.

[DarkHunter]

It's not crazy, it's a legitimate belief. I could explain it to you as it exists in Thelema if you wish.


You're damn right you should! You're startin' to see why I've been here for years - the general kickassery of it all.

That, and to worship Gil.

Likewise, I could explain it from my own peculiar perspective.

You worship Gil, I tend the forests of Her Kingdom.

If you want to examine the idea of "God" pyschologically, if God is a symbol, a way of having a dialogue with oneself, then most of the people who think like this are jerks who think they suck on account of their own existence. Their self loathing knows no bounds as DEATH is their goal.

Think about that every time you turn on the TV and see someone whose become a "martyr."

[dwulf]

Well, you kinda misunderstood. Not that we're supposed to be unhappy, but that he doesn't care that you're happy, as long as you're saved. I know. Stupid shit. Welcome to Louisiana. Stupid shit happens alot.

[john the baptist]

I've been to Louisiana 52 times in the past five years. I find it fun, but the streets throw me off.

[Gilenea]

I dub TC the Ambassador of Kickassador.

And now, my minions, please hop back on topic.

Gil

[demonic_monkey]

I used to be a Christian, but I always hated being lied to, so when I found out on a History Channel special about the Council of Nicaea and their work to make Christ into something more than human, I shied away. I changed faiths. That and there was the fact that here in Arkansas (I'm north of you, dwulf) it's as socially backwards as Louisiana. When they started mouthing off about homosexuals, and I, too, have homosexual friends, I really had to stop going. As it goes, you should love the sinner and hate the sin. It also says love your enemies in the bible. Jesus himself said to. Now as far as I believe, Jesus was a great teacher, a man who loved as I love, holding no ill will to a single person. But to say that we are God's children and that those of us who don't accept him are going to burn in a lake of fire for all eternity goes too far. A truly loving parent would not wish such a fate upon his children.

My faith includes the harm none philosophy, which every religion has, but also includes the belief in reincarnation, not as animals, but as humans, so that if we do something wrong we have a chance to get it right. My faith has no apocalypse, no lake of fire, no condemnation. It is a faith where the deities are truly loving and, most important, it does not condemn other religions by saying it is the only way to Paradise.

Fanatacism is a big part of what's wrong with the world. "Christian" zealots are just as bad as Al Qaeda's suicide bombers. They want to convert you and if they can't then to hell with you (pun not intended).

Of course, diversity is what makes this world interesting and I do occasionally get into religious debates with my Christian friends, but they know not to try to convert me any more, since I can debate them into a corner that they can't back out of. They are true Christians and love me despite the fact that I don't worship their god. I hope you can find people like that i the future, dwulf.

I am also a practitioner of Gil-ism.

[punxnotdead]

I used to be a Christian, but I always hated being lied to, so when I found out on a History Channel special about the Council of Nicaea and their work to make Christ into something more than human, I shied away. I changed faiths. That and there was the fact that here in Arkansas (I'm north of you, dwulf) it's as socially backwards as Louisiana. When they started mouthing off about homosexuals, and I, too, have homosexual friends, I really had to stop going. As it goes, you should love the sinner and hate the sin. It also says love your enemies in the bible. Jesus himself said to. Now as far as I believe, Jesus was a great teacher, a man who loved as I love, holding no ill will to a single person. But to say that we are God's children and that those of us who don't accept him are going to burn in a lake of fire for all eternity goes too far. A truly loving parent would not wish such a fate upon his children.

My faith includes the harm none philosophy, which every religion has, but also includes the belief in reincarnation, not as animals, but as humans, so that if we do something wrong we have a chance to get it right. My faith has no apocalypse, no lake of fire, no condemnation. It is a faith where the deities are truly loving and, most important, it does not condemn other religions by saying it is the only way to Paradise.

Fanatacism is a big part of what's wrong with the world. "Christian" zealots are just as bad as Al Qaeda's suicide bombers. They want to convert you and if they can't then to hell with you (pun not intended).

Of course, diversity is what makes this world interesting and I do occasionally get into religious debates with my Christian friends, but they know not to try to convert me any more, since I can debate them into a corner that they can't back out of. They are true Christians and love me despite the fact that I don't worship their god. I hope you can find people like that i the future, dwulf.

I am also a practitioner of Gil-ism.

I hate when any religous group demeans others for their beliefs (being gay) or even their race. It really makes me mad to hear someone who should be accepting to everyone, completely ignore the homosexual community. I, myself, happen to have gay friends, and they definately do not deserve to be treated so improperly.

I don't know a whole lot about the bible, but I do occassionally listen to those describing it. I find the Old Testimate alot more harsh than the New.
Anyways, I think you have some pretty ideal and peaceful beliefs ;)

[demonic_monkey]

Thank you.

I, too, have noticed how there is a difference between the New and Old Testaments. It's like God having a child calmed him down great ammount.

One thing I always disliked about church was when the preacher was in the Old Testament, as I believe that they get it wrong. I tried Judaism for a while and there was a big difference in the way they presented the Old Testament. I think Christian preachers would do better if they stuck to their own testament instead of using someone else's. That's just my opinion, though.

[RQ]

I think lack of an afterlife and/or reward keeps atheists from bombing buildings and making complete assholes out of themselves.

But they sure do their best with what they have sometimes.

I'm an atheist and I have never (will never) bomb any buildings. You know, because it's wrong.

Please clarify your "but they sure do their best with what they have sometimes" statement.

[dwulf]

I've been to Louisiana 52 times in the past five years. I find it fun, but the streets throw me off.

Louisiana is like Wal-Mart. It's alright to visit but you don't really want to stay there unless you like to deal with other people's bull.

[demonic_monkey]

Okay, that's not on topic but you made a clever simile. Good for you. *hugs*

[Petrone]

I'm an atheist and I have never (will never) bomb any buildings. You know, because it's wrong.

Please clarify your "but they sure do their best with what they have sometimes" statement.

I might direct your kind attention to a particular mantra I use as argument sometimes Prof. Dawkins said it so much more eloquently than I ever could -

“I might retort that such hostility as I or other atheists occasionally voice towards religion is limited to words. I am not going to bomb anybody, behead them, stone them, burn them at the stake, crucify them, or fly planes into their skyscrapers, just because of a theological disagreement.”
(Chapter 8, p. 282, The God Delusion)

I add personally, when was the last time anybody had an atheist war?

[Cosine]

Fundamentalists go for that one when arguing. Something along the lines of 'You don't fear hell, so you don't have any inhibitions and no reason not to kill/rape/steal.' I don't mean to get on anyone's bad side saying this, but this is a disturbing train of logic. For being on a moral high horse, I don't envy someone who doesn't understand that there is something wrong with murder and needs the threat of eternal torment in Hell to keep them away from it.

[LV426]

Fundamentalists go for that one when arguing. Something along the lines of 'You don't fear hell, so you don't have any inhibitions and no reason not to kill/rape/steal.' I don't mean to get on anyone's bad side saying this, but this is a disturbing train of logic. For being on a moral high horse, I don't envy someone who doesn't understand that there is something wrong with murder and needs the threat of eternal torment in Hell to keep them away from it.

I am with you on that one Cosine. I mean before religion one can only hope that there were people who didn't murder, rape, steal, and do other bad things just because there was no religion to tell them not to. I mean the 10 commandments are merely common sense for the most part. I don't go around killing people that piss me off although I have wished for lazer beams from my eyes to kill people with before or a delete button to make them not exist. Of course I am an atheistic agnostic and believe in neither heaven nor hell. So there must be some other mysterious power out there keeping me from being a homicidal bitch. Or perhaps I have a brain and can use rational and cognitive thinking.

[demonic_monkey]

All praise to rationality. I'd hate to be on your bad side.

But on topic, though religion has brought people to fear something from their bad deeds, religion has also caused a ton of trouble. Look at the Middle East, for example. Muslims and jews fighting over a damn temple? Suicide bombings in the name of Allah? Self-reightious(sp?) Christians condemning all that isn't their way? Why all the hate? Why all the killing?

Religion.

[Cosine]

That's the opposite end of the spectrum that I don't agree with. Most religions carry a message that you can get something out of. It's when you get fundamentalism and organized religion involved that things turn ugly. The problem is people. Blame the creator, not the creation.

[dwulf]

I'm convinced that the biggest weapon of mass destruction thus far is the biblical God.:mad:

As for a personal relationship with him. That's complete bull. Think about it. Let's say that you aren't a Christian. Then the Christians blame on your bad luck on the fact that you aren't a Christian. But if you are a Christian, all the bad luck is a "test of faith". Come on dude. It's stupid.

God cares about us my foot. God doesn't give a damn about us. He doesn't care what happens. You want to know why? Because God does not exist. There. I said it. Finally, I admit that I don't believe anymore. The source of my disbelief? Believe it or not, the Bible.

Read it. It's chickenshit.

[Cosine]

He doesn't care what happens. You want to know why? Because God does not exist. There. I said it. Finally, I admit that I don't believe anymore. The source of my disbelief? Believe it or not, the Bible.

Read it. It's chickenshit.

Funny... same story here. Revelations scared me off.

[dwulf]

Funny... same story here. Revelations scared me off.

I hear you loud and clear. If revelations is going to happen, then I say bring it on. Come on. I'm tire of waiting to be judged. If this God does exist then he should stop being a little bitch and come on out to do his thing. But he won't, because he's not there. Is it my anger talking? Many believers would say so. But I've been putting my head in the books instead of the clouds, and I'm thinking clearer than ever. My mind is not hindered by rage but actually stimulated by it.

[demonic_monkey]

Religion is complete and utter bullshit. God is a man-made concept to keep people from being bad. Why not just use the old eye for an eye logic? If someone kills someone, kill 'em back. Right?

If there is a God, then I'ma go to hell.

[Petrone]

God cares about us my foot. God doesn't give a damn about us. He doesn't care what happens. You want to know why? Because God does not exist. There. I said it. Finally, I admit that I don't believe anymore. The source of my disbelief? Believe it or not, the Bible.


About belief, whenever someone accuses me of being an unbeliever, I calmly point out that they are incorrect, I do hold beliefs, and in the pure function of believing, everybody is one and the same. Only difference is what we believe in. They believe there is a God, and I believe there is not. Only difference, I have more evidence to back up my claim.

[dwulf]

God is an imaginary friend. Those who have a personal relationship with him are mentally ill. When a single person is delusional, that individual is called crazy. When a large number of people are delusional, it's then called religion.

[Golden Howl]

God is an imaginary friend. Those who have a personal relationship with him are mentally ill.
I see. So, I'm mentally ill?

[dwulf]

Whoa. I think I may have gone too far on that one. Excuse me. I have moments when I say the cruelest things. Sorry guys. I'm out of line for that one. *bitchslaps self*

[Golden Howl]

Whoa. I think I may have gone too far on that one. Excuse me. I have moments when I say the cruelest things.
I was just about to add the fact that your best friend is a Christian to my previous post...but I ran out of time. It's okay. Apology accepted. I was just a bit offended, because you were labeling me(not to mention every other person on here with a relationship with God) as just merely part of a meaningless group & not as a special, different individual. You just have to realize that not all Christians, Muslims, etc. are identical.

[dwulf]

I was just about to add the fact that your best friend is a Christian to my previous post...but I ran out of time. It's okay. Apology accepted. I was just a bit offended, because you were labeling me(not to mention every other person on here with a relationship with God) as just merely part of a meaningless group & not as a special, different individual. You just have to realize that not all Christians, Muslims, etc. are identical.

I know. I feel sick after my rage rush gives out because I know I was an asshole to somebody.

[ThrasherCub]

God is an imaginary friend. Those who have a personal relationship with him are mentally ill. When a single person is delusional, that individual is called crazy. When a large number of people are delusional, it's then called religion.

That's a bit extreme, don't you think? Particularly when you think that if there is a God, atheists are then insane due to compulsive and obsessive denial - also a form of craziness. ;)

[demonic_monkey]

Everyone is insane by my reckoning.

[UNODRAGONE]

I know. I feel sick after my rage rush gives out because I know I was an asshole to somebody.

don't be they probably deserved it, if someone manages some how to piss me off, which is extremley difficult to do, then they deserve my wrath. Theres nothing wrong with being angry, it's an emotion just like any other. My sister is a born again Christian and refuses to give into anger at all cause it's not God like. Which is probably why, God knows I love her, she has a perminant poll wedged in her ass

[Vendetta]

I was just a bit offended, because you were labeling me(not to mention every other person on here with a relationship with God) as just merely part of a meaningless group & not as a special, different individual.
If the shoe fits...

That's a bit extreme, don't you think? Particularly when you think that if there is a God, atheists are then insane due to compulsive and obsessive denial - also a form of craziness. ;)
Luckily, there ISN'T a God, so no worries about atheists being crazy (at least not based on their disbelief in the big invisible man in the sky.) Also, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't BE crazy anyway, because actual EVIDENCE and common sense supports our outlook.

As for the mental illness that dwulf mentioned, that's actually not too far from the truth. Look into toxic mimetics, and you'll see that what these people are victims of are dangerous ideas that have taken on a viral aspect.

[dwulf]

As for the mental illness that dwulf mentioned, that's actually not too far from the truth. Look into toxic mimetics, and you'll see that what these people are victims of are dangerous ideas that have taken on a viral aspect.

Interesting...Toxic Mimetics. I'll be sure to look into that.

[ThrasherCub]

Luckily, there ISN'T a God, so no worries about atheists being crazy (at least not based on their disbelief in the big invisible man in the sky.) Also, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't BE crazy anyway, because actual EVIDENCE and common sense supports our outlook.

Just entertain the idea that there is a God for a moment. While there is certainly evidence to support your outlook, there are also things you can't explain with science yet which are readily explained by the existence of God. If there is/were a God, that would qualify as denial. After all, the answer would have been right in front of you then and instead you were holding out faith that science would some day manage to explain everything.

[RQ]

Just entertain the idea that there is a God for a moment. While there is certainly evidence to support your outlook, there are also things you can't explain with science yet which are readily explained by the existence of God. If there is/were a God, that would qualify as denial. After all, the answer would have been right in front of you then and instead you were holding out faith that science would some day manage to explain everything.

Technically everything is readily explainable by the existence of a god, since religion makes the blanket statement that god is/is responsible for all things. The religious believe in a deity.

Science goes much further along the links in the chain of explanation by offering repeatable experiments, physical and chemical processes, and mathematical explanations for why things are the way they are. Atheists believe in science.

It's the difference between the times you asked your parents questions and the answer was "because I said so," and the times you asked your parents questions and they took the time to explain their answers.

Obviously it's a personal choice, but I have a very hard time understanding how someone capable of analysis, reason, and independent decision-making (i.e., an adult) could choose sacred over secular. Unless of course said person has experienced personal hardship which they equate with supernatural forces in their lives.
The atheist in me reasons that with a time-honored adage: shit happens.

[Petrone]

Everyone is insane by my reckoning.

Sanity is majority consensus.

[ThrasherCub]

Science goes much further along the links in the chain of explanation by offering repeatable experiments, physical and chemical processes, and mathematical explanations for why things are the way they are. Atheists believe in science.

Atheists have faith in science. Or at least a lot of them do. While science offers lovely explanations for things, that doesn't mean it can explain everything. There's also the chance that science will explain everything back down to having a divine origin too. The most commonly used example I've seen is of the big bang: science explains everything back down to an explosion of energy and matter, but that it is God which is the origin of this energy and matter and that the explanations science has found are nothing but the physical symptoms of what God is doing.

Also, for the record, this isn't exactly something I subscribe to myself, other than there really are many atheists who have bonafide faith in science like religious people do their particular teachings.

Like many magicians I find both to be important and not in opposition to one another. Not that you'd know that to look at many new agers...

"The method of science, the aim of religion."

[RQ]

While science offers lovely explanations for things, that doesn't mean it can explain everything.

What makes you think it can't?

I acknowledge that it can't explain everything yet, but up until the most recent instant in the history of our species, we thought the Earth was flat, and that dancing could make the rain fall. We are still learning.

Edit: I see that you didn't actually say YOU thought science couldn't explain everything; please elaborate in the objective.

[ThrasherCub]

What makes you think it can't?
Nothing, really. But what makes you, or anyone else, think it can?

As you said, we are still learning; the list of what we will one day understand is a complete mystery to us in the here and now, and while science has taken us quite far this doesn't guarantee that it will take us all the way. Just think about how far we were able to go and come up with explanations and equations, but then all of them turned out to be based off of something incorrect? Case in point: the things we explained and made equations for based off of the earth being the center of the universe.

[Vendetta]

Nothing, really. But what makes you, or anyone else, think it can?
Because it HAS explained just about EVERYTHING else, without the need for a big bugaboo in the sky. Look, I think it's obvious to anyone that the world is not flat, that the sun doesn't revolve around the moon, that thunder and lightning and other natural phenomena aren't the result of the "gods" being angry. Science explains ALL these things.

See the problem we have with religion is that it doesn't ASK any questions. God (or whatever label you want to use) is the ANSWER. Whereas science begins with the questions, and no, will probably never end, as I imagine we'll always be discovering new things with science. Not so much with religion.

[DarkHunter]

I think its important to keep in mind that science is a process. Its not a dogma. It has been used in a dogmatic way by certain atheists (and more than a few New Agers), but that is folly on the part of the people, not science.

Funny you mention the Big Bang. We could explain ourselves down to that explosion for years and people just inserted "God" there, but now they're starting to at least detect evidence of existence BEFORE the Big Bang and our universe.

Fascinating isn't it? Wherever one shines the light of Reason, God is not in evidence.

[Petrone]

I look around our world and my community, and every single thing I lay my eyes on or my hand to, from toothbrushes to skyscrapers, roads, cars, nuclear war, even computers, were all built by humanity. God had no hand that anybody can see in any creation of humans.

Some may argue that of course, God created the Universe and Life itself, well, if so, how come He got it so wrong so many times? Just look at the human body. Medieval thinkers believed it to be perfect, the embodiment of the likeness of God, but now you will find massive design flaws in just about every system, to the extent that some anatomists are amazed we can even walk around. Just look at the appendix, which is a vestigal organ with no use to modern humans, and in fact can be a curse. Or ask a doctor about the design of the blood circulation to the brain (Circle of Willis). Or peer into DNA and wonder why there seems to be so much 'junk' DNA in our genome. Simplest reason; the 'junk' is left over from our ancestors, and is no longer needed to make gills, tails, float bladders, etc. But evolution is very bad at pruning out genetic material we no longer need, so it just sits there now, useless and ignored.

So everything I see around me is either the creation of Human, or the result of blind evolution. Science can't explain everything yet, but nothing we've encountered - apart from maybe quantum physics - anywhere, ever, indicates the presence of a Divine Designer.

[ThrasherCub]

Because it HAS explained just about EVERYTHING else, without the need for a big bugaboo in the sky. Look, I think it's obvious to anyone that the world is not flat, that the sun doesn't revolve around the moon, that thunder and lightning and other natural phenomena aren't the result of the "gods" being angry. Science explains ALL these things.
You can't be sure of that though. As I pointed out, science has explained stuff and been wrong before. And last I checked, science hadn't proven that God doesn't exist, just that there are physical explanations for things formerly attributed to God's will.

See the problem we have with religion is that it doesn't ASK any questions. God (or whatever label you want to use) is the ANSWER. Whereas science begins with the questions, and no, will probably never end, as I imagine we'll always be discovering new things with science. Not so much with religion.
The problem I have with atheism is I doubt it would be accepted if science somehow did come to the conclusion that there is a God and that our physical causes are nothing but the manifest symptoms of what God is doing.

Isn't science supposed to be open to possibilities?

Prove that God doesn't exist or start being open to the possibility that it does. That's part of being a good scientist.

[LV426]

I look around our world and my community, and every single thing I lay my eyes on or my hand to, from toothbrushes to skyscrapers, roads, cars, nuclear war, even computers, were all built by humanity. God had no hand that anybody can see in any creation of humans.

Some may argue that of course, God created the Universe and Life itself, well, if so, how come He got it so wrong so many times? Just look at the human body. Medieval thinkers believed it to be perfect, the embodiment of the likeness of God, but now you will find massive design flaws in just about every system, to the extent that some anatomists are amazed we can even walk around. Just look at the appendix, which is a vestigal organ with no use to modern humans, and in fact can be a curse. Or ask a doctor about the design of the blood circulation to the brain (Circle of Willis). Or peer into DNA and wonder why there seems to be so much 'junk' DNA in our genome. Simplest reason; the 'junk' is left over from our ancestors, and is no longer needed to make gills, tails, float bladders, etc. But evolution is very bad at pruning out genetic material we no longer need, so it just sits there now, useless and ignored.

So everything I see around me is either the creation of Human, or the result of blind evolution. Science can't explain everything yet, but nothing we've encountered - apart from maybe quantum physics - anywhere, ever, indicates the presence of a Divine Designer.

Humans are extremely poorly designed. I mean why cross a food intake pipe with an airway valve? Why decide to put a playground between two sewers. Not to mention the brain placement, heart placement and lack of protection for vital organs. Surely if a higher being was going to create humans they would have figured out a more efficient design.

[ThrasherCub]

Surely if a higher being was going to create humans they would have figured out a more efficient design.

You could say the same thing about evolution though. Isn't natural selection supposed to keep the sabotaging genes from taking hold?

[Petrone]

You can't be sure of that though. As I pointed out, science has explained stuff and been wrong before. And last I checked, science hadn't proven that God doesn't exist, just that there are physical explanations for things formerly attributed to God's will.


The problem I have with atheism is I doubt it would be accepted if science somehow did come to the conclusion that there is a God and that our physical causes are nothing but the manifest symptoms of what God is doing.

Isn't science supposed to be open to possibilities?

Prove that God doesn't exist or start being open to the possibility that it does. That's part of being a good scientist.

Okay, I accept your argument. It is almost impossible to prove a negative, but let's look at it another way. Prove that God does exist, or start being open to the possibility that He doesn't. And please, no faith, not proof arguments. There was never a more facesious corruption of intelligence in history.

I will think of some reasonable, provable and repeatable arguments to prove the non-existence of God. In the meantime, I would like to hear proof of His existence.

Should we start a new thread?

[Petrone]

You could say the same thing about evolution though. Isn't natural selection supposed to keep the sabotaging genes from taking hold?

People who aren't familiar with evolution and Darwinism usually make the same mistake, that evolution is evolving toward something. In fact, this argument is made by many creationists and Intelligent Design proponents, that evolution must have a goal. It must be a top-down approach.

Well, it isn't. It's only purpose is to survive and carry genetic material on. "Survival of the fittest" was a phrase coined by Darwin, but with considerable caveats because it was very simplistic. Evolution is a constant arms-race which favours those best suited to their particular environment. There is no goal, and humans are only one more step along the way. Who knows how we'll end up in ten million years?

'Sabotaging genes' is a misnomer. A sabotaging gene is either a malignent tumor or a mutation. But even the mutation may be benficial in some way to the organism. If the mutation does nothing, it becomes junk. Maybe a million generations down the track, some other piece of junk DNA will be expressed, and the two will get together, and form another beneficial or detrimental mutation.

It would take another week to fully explain the logic behind evolution and genetics, but here's some links if anyone's interested;

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/darwinism/

http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookgenintro.html

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/T/Transcription.html

Warning, that last one does get technical.

[ThrasherCub]

Okay, I accept your argument. It is almost impossible to prove a negative, but let's look at it another way. Prove that God does exist, or start being open to the possibility that He doesn't. And please, no faith, not proof arguments. There was never a more facesious corruption of intelligence in history.
1, A few posts back I mention that these aren't my beliefs. I'm playing devil's advocate because I find this to be a supremely enjoyable topic.
2, I am open to the possibility.

I'm open to the idea that everything is scientific and there's nothing mystical in the world, I'm open to science being way off and horribly wrong, and I'm open to (and leaning towards) there being a mix of the two.

[Petrone]

Thank you TC. I enjoy a good debate too. Just so we're clear, I am not disrespecting any person who posts here, merely expressing my view about what I feel is an outdated mode of thought. I think I mentioned in another thread that the actual function of belief is identical no matter what the object of belief is. I simply feel I have more evidence for my position than someone taking the counterview.

Who knows, maybe something will come of it, and I will be 'born again.' Or maybe someone else will be convinced by my arguments and turn to science for comfort.

All I'm saying is that putting everything on 'God' is a very effective way of avoiding responsibility, and I happen to feel that many problems in society these days can be directly attributed to a lack of responsibility (my mumma hit me, the voices made me do it, I just wanted to fit in... etc). I take great comfort in the fact that anything I look at, I may eventually understand, unlike God, which by definition can never be understood by humans.

[RQ]

Isn't science supposed to be open to possibilities?

Prove that God doesn't exist or start being open to the possibility that it does. That's part of being a good scientist.

Science is open to all possibilities, that's what's so great about it.

Furthermore, as I've said before, the burden of proof lies with the so-called 'believers,' not with the non-believers.

I could tell you that the flying spaghetti monster (http://www.venganza.org/)and the great celestial teapot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot)are real too; does that make them real because you can't prove they don't exist?

[ThrasherCub]

I take great comfort in the fact that anything I look at, I may eventually understand, unlike God, which by definition can never be understood by humans.
Who is to say that God could not be understood. Assuming there is a God, it is possible that some form of enlightenment or heavenly union with God also exists.

Science is open to all possibilities, that's what's so great about it.
And yet I keep verbally plowing into science-laden atheists who refuse that there is any possibility of a God.

Furthermore, as I've said before, the burden of proof lies with the so-called 'believers,' not with the non-believers.
And as I pointed out, there is a level on which atheists are indeed believers. Atheists believe there is no God, ergo a burden of proof.

[RQ]

And yet I keep verbally plowing into science-laden atheists who refuse that there is any possibility of a God.


And as I pointed out, there is a level on which atheists are indeed believers. Atheists believe there is no God, ergo a burden of proof.

It's a different kind of belief. Atheists believe there is no god the same way they believe that gravity will keep them firmly attached to the planet. There is no effort involved, all you are doing is observing your environment and responding accordingly. You could call it passive belief. Religious people, on the other hand, have to shove their active belief in everyone's faces all the time, making it much more aggressive.

Furthermore, to people who have thought out all of the alternatives, allowing for the possibility of a god is the same thing as allowing for the possibility of the flying spaghetti monster - you could do it, but why would you waste your time with something so ridiculous?

[dwulf]

Maybe there is a god. But I doubt that its some invisible man in the sky. Sounds like bullshit to me.

[ThrasherCub]

It's a different kind of belief. Atheists believe there is no god the same way they believe that gravity will keep them firmly attached to the planet.
Difference: Gravity is proven, documented, and constantly experienced. Lack of God is not.

Religious people, on the other hand, have to shove their active belief in everyone's faces all the time, making it much more aggressive.
2 things.
First, not all religious people are like that.
Second, the only group to protest the pagan pride parade in our area were atheists.

Sorry, but atheists too will occasionally annoy the shit out of everyone by blathering on about their beliefs.

Furthermore, to people who have thought out all of the alternatives, allowing for the possibility of a god is the same thing as allowing for the possibility of the flying spaghetti monster - you could do it, but why would you waste your time with something so ridiculous?
Why? Because until proven otherwise there is a chance that it may be right.

[Petrone]

I think that if we're going to be going back and forth about who has the greater handle on reality, perhaps a new dedicated thread would be in order? Something where we can get into religious fisty-cuffs without sabotaging somebody else's train of thought. How about it?

[Petrone]

Who is to say that God could not be understood. Assuming there is a God, it is possible that some form of enlightenment or heavenly union with God also exists.

IF there is a God, by definition He is unknowable by anything other than another God. The less complex cannot know the more complex, in the same way that saomething greater than the Universe cannot logically exist within that Universe - the blacksmith can make the sword, but not the sword make the blacksmith.

[DarkHunter]

Difference: Gravity is proven, documented, and constantly experienced. Lack of God is not.


2 things.
First, not all religious people are like that.
Second, the only group to protest the pagan pride parade in our area were atheists.

Sorry, but atheists too will occasionally annoy the shit out of everyone by blathering on about their beliefs.


Why? Because until proven otherwise there is a chance that it may be right.

How do you prove "lack of God?" Without evidence pointing to the existence of God, doesn't that by default point to a lack of God? Not to say that the possibility doesn't exist. Until we know everything about the universe (pretty damned unlikely given how little time humanity actually has), people will still tack on "God" everywhere they can. Hell, even if science did learn all there is to know, there'd still be some uneducated idiot going "I just believe it okay?"

Atheists can be entirely assholish. Especially the younger generation of athiests who can't quite get over the fact that they're not Christians anymore. They have to continually assert the fact. And they use science dogmatically (NO! Bad disaffected youth!).

But that doesn't mean Atheism doesn't have a more rational basis. Attacking the people who hold to an idea doesn't necessarily make the idea invalid.

[Vendetta]

Difference: Gravity is proven, documented, and constantly experienced. Lack of God is not.
Seriously TC, if you're playing devil's advocate, you're doing a terrible job of it. Theism relies on set unprovables, and by doing so says "Haha, see, I was right." Lack of evidence of a thing doesn't PROVE the existence of a thing. Another problem is the logic of God, which is often contratictory. If someone in this thread can give me a concrete defintion of what God is and/or entails, I could probably argue this better, but until then, I have no basis on which to argue, because we're given no firm playing field.

Sorry, but atheists too will occasionally annoy the shit out of everyone by blathering on about their beliefs.
Do you ever stop to question WHY atheists do this?

Why? Because until proven otherwise there is a chance that it may be right.
But a much LARGER chance that it may be wrong. I don't understand where the disconnect is coming from. It's very difficult to prove most things are 100% factual, yet we have no problem believing them.

Difference: Gravity is proven, documented, and constantly experienced. Lack of God is not.
First, proven? Second, define documented? Lastly, I know quite a FEW people who regularly experience a lack of God.

[ThrasherCub]

Lack of evidence of a thing doesn't PROVE the existence of a thing.
And where did I disagree? Seriously, could you stick to points I actually made?

Do you ever stop to question WHY atheists do this?
From what I saw at the protest they were doing it because they were too stupid to realize that we care about science too. All their arguments were based upon the premise that we've completely abandoned all belief in science.

But a much LARGER chance that it may be wrong.
And you know this how?

[Lysander]

From what I saw at the protest they were doing it because they were too stupid to realize that we care about science too. All their arguments were based upon the premise that we've completely abandoned all belief in science.


I asked my dad the other day why he couldnt justify evolution with his religion. Why god couldnt have made the world through a natural continuing process (evolution) instead of a one-time-miraculous event, seeing as everything else in the universe happens through a cause and effect method of processes. It was his distrust of scientists whom he believed had an agenda to destroy his religion that keeps him believing in the bible story of creation. Its not that christians arent open to science per se, its just that they believe that scientists are out to get them.

[ThrasherCub]

Its not that christians arent open to science per se, its just that they believe that scientists are out to get them.

Not all Christians are that fully insane, though I'd like to point out that I wasn't talking about Christians. They were protesting a pagan pride parade. I'm speaking more specifically on their interactions with my fellow Thelemites who were there.

[Lysander]

Not all Christians are that fully insane, though I'd like to point out that I wasn't talking about Christians. They were protesting a pagan pride parade. I'm speaking more specifically on their interactions with my fellow Thelemites who were there.

Maybe not all, but from the numbers ive seen from my previous 'life' as a christian, its a very sizable chunk. I would even dare say the majority.

[UNODRAGONE]

Maybe not all, but from the numbers ive seen from my previous 'life' as a christian, its a very sizable chunk. I would even dare say the majority.


I hate being stereotypical and grouping certain people all together, but I have found, just purely through the people I have met, born again Christians to be extremly radical in that sense. Again, not all or the majority, just cause obviously I don't know or haven't met the majority to make that kind of an ignorant statement, but the ones I have personally come into contact with.

[Vendetta]

And where did I disagree? Seriously, could you stick to points I actually made?
This actually IS to the point. You're trying to say atheists have to prove the nonexistence of something, and I'm not sure why you think that is.

From what I saw at the protest they were doing it because they were too stupid to realize that we care about science too. All their arguments were based upon the premise that we've completely abandoned all belief in science.
I wasn't referring specifically to those atheists, but to why atheists in general protest religion.

And you know this how?
Uhh, the laws of physics? Look, Christians saying that God created the whole universe out of nothing, is simply preposterous, and flies in the face of all reason and physics. And hell, based on the view most Christians have of God, you don't even need to involve science, you can just invoke logic.

Also, TC, I fail to see how you can even play devil's advocate if you, as you say, support science. It seems to me you're just lending credence to those atheists who protested the pagan parade.

I wonder what would happen if someone organized an Atheist Pride parade? I CAN guarantee you there would be very little turning of the other cheek.

Not all Christians are that fully insane
Just partially insane?

[UNODRAGONE]

This actually IS to the point. You're trying to say atheists have to prove the nonexistence of something, and I'm not sure why you think that is.


I wasn't referring specifically to those atheists, but to why atheists in general protest religion.


Uhh, the laws of physics? Look, Christians saying that God created the whole universe out of nothing, is simply preposterous, and flies in the face of all reason and physics. And hell, based on the view most Christians have of God, you don't even need to involve science, you can just invoke logic.

Also, TC, I fail to see how you can even play devil's advocate if you, as you say, support science. It seems to me you're just lending credence to those atheists who protested the pagan parade.

I wonder what would happen if someone organized an Atheist Pride parade? I CAN guarantee you there would be very little turning of the other cheek.


Just partially insane?

just for sheer morbid curiosity, I tried Googling the whole creation from a science perspective and have found nothing conclusive. Can you show me where you got that info from? Not being sarcastic, just curious

[Galliard]

Okay, I have a few questions.

1) Why couldn't a God- form take billions of years to create a universe? It's a universe, for geez's sake!

2) Why couldn't a God- form have invented evolution, and "watched it grow?"

3) Why is it preposterous to believe that a God can't be bothered with the microcosm, if God pays attention to the macrocosm? YOU know how to multi-task, yes? Considering the weight that we put on "God" ( a wholly higher form than us, by most of humanity's own reckoning), then what makes you think that/those being(s) can't do at least what we do?

4) Isn't it possible that the only reason why we see "God" as "good" is because "God" is the ultimate creator of our race (even though it may have been random)? Hell, evolution could have turned out differently, and we could all have grown bat wings, if that had suited this planet's equilibrium.

I have more thoughts, but I think this is good to get started.

[ThrasherCub]

This actually IS to the point. You're trying to say atheists have to prove the nonexistence of something, and I'm not sure why you think that is.
Please refer up to the posts where we were discussing that the burden of proof is on believers and Atheists believe there is no god and believe that science can explain everything.

Uhh, the laws of physics?
Please point out the "There Is No God" law.

Look, Christians saying that God created the whole universe out of nothing, is simply preposterous, and flies in the face of all reason and physics.
First of all, I'm not talking about Christians. Second, I fail to see how "God created the universe out of nothing" is any more or less preposterous than the Big Bang theory of "Nothing blew up and created everything."

Also, TC, I fail to see how you can even play devil's advocate if you, as you say, support science.
Please refer to my earlier post where I said I believe in a combination of science and spirituality.

[Vendetta]

Please refer up to the posts where we were discussing that the burden of proof is on believers and Atheists believe there is no god and believe that science can explain everything.
Actually I think you're confusing belief with faith. They are entirely different things. When I go to work in the morning, I believe my car will starty because I have proof that it has a full tank of gas, was working yesterday, and appears to be physically sound. A religious person might have faith that their "car" will start, but offers no proof or evidence supporting this.

Please point out the "There Is No God" law.
See below.

First of all, I'm not talking about Christians.
So what the hell ARE you talking about? Lets pin things down here, otherwise it's useless to debate if you keep changing the definitions.

Second, I fail to see how "God created the universe out of nothing" is any more or less preposterous than the Big Bang theory of "Nothing blew up and created everything."
Are you SERIOUS?! Holy fuck. I'm pretty sure you're thinking of a different theory than the big bang (which, I'd like to point out IS the best supported universe-creation theory by scientific evidence and observation (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html).) Seriously, by all accounts God defies the laws of physics ALL the time. Please refer to the laws of conservation of energy, et al. Also, if you apply Occam's Razor to the Universe you will pretty much cut out God altogether.

Please refer to my earlier post where I said I believe in a combination of science and spirituality.
Uhh, I'm happy for you? This doesn't bring you any closer to proving spirituality. And I'm sorry, but I like to live in a world based on established fact, not flights of fancy.

Again, come up with a standard definition of God, THEN I'll argue. But until then, I'm pretty much done here.

[ThrasherCub]

Actually I think you're confusing belief with faith. They are entirely different things. When I go to work in the morning, I believe my car will starty because I have proof that it has a full tank of gas, was working yesterday, and appears to be physically sound. A religious person might have faith that their "car" will start, but offers no proof or evidence supporting this.
belief–noun
1.something believed; an opinion or conviction

I'm pretty sure it's your opinion that there is no God and science is the way to go, and your arguments are pretty clearly spelling out "conviction."

I'd also like to point out that people used to believe the celestial bodies revolved around the Earth, and had mathematical proofs to back it up.

So what the hell ARE you talking about? Lets pin things down here, otherwise it's useless to debate if you keep changing the definitions.
Where was I talking on Christians specifically? I'm not changing definitions, I've been talking about people who believe in God.

Uhh, I'm happy for you? This doesn't bring you any closer to proving spirituality. And I'm sorry, but I like to live in a world based on established fact, not flights of fancy.
Are you even paying attention to what that was a reply to? That wasn't an attempt to prove spirituality, it was an explanation as to how I can entertain these ideas if I believe in science at all.

[Vendetta]

belief–noun
1.something believed; an opinion or conviction

I'm pretty sure it's your opinion that there is no God and science is the way to go, and your arguments are pretty clearly spelling out "conviction."
And I'm pretty sure "believing" that your car will start in the morning is the same thing. The difference is I don't believe that my car will FLY.

I'd also like to point out that people used to believe the celestial bodies revolved around the Earth, and had mathematical proofs to back it up.
Mathenmatical proofs? Please show this to be true. Psuedo-science is NOT science, and bad math is STILL bad math.

Where was I talking on Christians specifically? I'm not changing definitions, I've been talking about people who believe in God.
So please define God, who or what is s/he specifically? Otherwise, we're at a standstill here.

[Galliard]

Think about it; a cosmic scientist OUTSIDE of our universe, viewing us as we might view a petree (sp?) dish, and able to focus on soooo many things at once. Perhaps, our universe is the spoor of different universes combined!!!!:D

[RQ]

Please point out the "There Is No God" law.

That would be all of them, since they explain all naturally occurring phenomena in the universe and our day to day lives, without use or need for a deity.

[Galliard]

What is behind the naturally occurring phenomena at the base level?

[Vendetta]

Dr. House recommends that you kill yourself with Occam's Razor.
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/theshadesofnite/House.jpg

[RQ]

What is behind the naturally occurring phenomena at the base level?

Further laws governing the behavior and interaction of subatomic particles. You know, science. :)


For a guy old enough to be my dad, Hugh Laurie is so hot.

[Galliard]

The simplest solution may not always be the correct one. Or the best one.

Also, how do you know whether or not those reactions weren't first orchestrated rather than randomized events? Can you prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they WERE random events?

How do you know that the rules and laws of science (the ones we actually find to be true) aren't a careful design rather than "this just happened."

And, while you're at it, could you tell me how we got the mass from the Big Bang in the first place? You know, so that all this other random stuff, like us, could happen?

[RQ]

The simplest solution may not always be the correct one. Or the best one.

Often it is, though. And furthermore, one's opinion of what is 'best,' has no bearing whatsoever on what is 'true.'

[Vendetta]

The simplest solution may not always be the correct one. Or the best one.
Bzzzzz! Try again. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor)

[Galliard]

A wall is going to fall on you. You want to live and remain uninjured.

The simplest solution is to ignore it, and hope it falls elsewhere.

The correct solution is to Get the F*** out of the way.

The more complex, but still correct solution, is to find a way to keep the wall from falling on you, before it does damage to you.

[Vendetta]

A wall is going to fall on you. You want to live and remain uninjured.

The simplest solution is to ignore it, and hope it falls elsewhere.

The correct solution is to Get the F*** out of the way.

The more complex, but still correct solution, is to find a way to keep the wall from falling on you, before it does damage to you.
This makes no sense. We're not looking for solutions to problems, we're testing things using scientific method. You might want to read up on scientific theory and method before starting to debate these things, since it's pretty evident you have NO clue what you are talking about.

[RQ]

A wall is going to fall on you. You want to live and remain uninjured.

The simplest solution is to ignore it, and hope it falls elsewhere.

The correct solution is to Get the F*** out of the way.

The more complex, but still correct solution, is to find a way to keep the wall from falling on you, before it does damage to you.

Actually, you've proven MY point.

A wall is going to fall on you.
Some people would think that the simplest solution is to pray that the eternal Father in the sky, who is always watching and looking out for your well being, will save you.

When actually the simplest solution is to go stand somewhere else.

[Vendetta]

Actually, you've proven MY point.

A wall is going to fall on you.
Some people would think that the simplest solution is to pray that the eternal Father in the sky, who is always watching and looking out for your well being, will save you.

When actually the simplest solution is to go stand somewhere else.
I would actually prefer for people, who were so inclined, to do the former, as much as possible.

EDIT: A very good friend of mine once said "Natural selection doesn't work fast enough for me." I agree wholeheartedly. Of course if you don't "believe" in natural selection, may I suggest you play with this toaster the next time you take a bath.

[Galliard]

This makes no sense. We're not looking for solutions to problems, we're testing things using scientific method. You might want to read up on scientific theory and method before starting to debate these things, since it's pretty evident you have NO clue what you are talking about.

This is what I was addressing: a certain point...

"This is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."


Honestly, I don't need to; I have already studied, and I do read scientific magazines. I am actually quite enamored of them. Also, I can readily admit that I know less (am rusty) in this subject than those who have degrees in science. Do not presume to tell me what I do and do not know.

I will say this; just because you know what an atom is, and you know what electrons and neutrons are, and you know what comprises these elements and the circumstances which bring them together, it doesn't mean that there WASN'T something (or someone) to cause those reactions FOR THE FIRST TIME.

What, or who, started the first reactions, bindings, etc. in the universe? When you can answer that fully, to the point of origin and prove there isn't a God or divine source, then I will believe/ understand that there is no divine force.

Or, perhaps, those same questions will prove, thousands of years later, that there IS something that can be called "god."

But, right now, it IS NOT PROVEN EITHER WAY.

[Vendetta]

This is what I was addressing: a certain point...

"This is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."


Honestly, I don't need to; I have already studied, and I do read scientific magazines. I am actually quite enamored of them. Also, I can readily admit that I know less (am rusty) in this subject than those who have degrees in science. Do not presume to tell me what I do and do not know.

I will say this; just because you know what an atom is, and you know what electrons and neutrons are, and you know what comprises these elements and the circumstances which bring them together, it doesn't mean that there WASN'T something (or someone) to cause those reactions FOR THE FIRST TIME.

What, or who, started the first reactions, bindings, etc. in the universe? When you can answer that fully, to the point of origin and prove there isn't a God or divine source, then I will believe/ understand that there is no divine force.

Or, perhaps, those same questions will prove, thousands of years later, that there IS something that can be called "god."

But, right now, it IS NOT PROVEN EITHER WAY.
Apparently reading comprehension isn't your strongest suit. Please define God, otherwise I cannot and will not engage in this debate. When you do, I will be more than HAPPY to disprove God. So, the ball's in your court.

I'm going to stick the car analogy I've been using. Say I don't know much about how an internal combustion engine works. I can still look at the workings of car and see that the wheels turn, and those wheels are turned by the drive shaft, and that the drive shaft is driven by pistons going up and down. Who is the more rational, the person who describes what they've observed and studied of the workings of the car, or the person who just gives up and says the car runs on "magic"?

[Galliard]

Apparently reading comprehension isn't your strongest suit. Please define God, otherwise I cannot and will not engage in this debate. When you do, I will be more than HAPPY to disprove God. So, the ball's in your court.

I'm going to stick the car analogy I've been using. Say I don't know much about how an internal combustion engine works. I can still look at the workings of car and see that the wheels turn, and those wheels are turned by the drive shaft, and that the drive shaft is driven by pistons going up and down. Who is the more rational, the person who describes what they've observed and studied of the workings of the car, or the person who just gives up and says the car runs on "magic"?


I think that's a bad analogy, because humans didn't create the universe.

God: the thing behind the beginning of the universe.

[RQ]

I think that's a bad analogy, because humans didn't create the universe.

God: the thing behind the beginning of the universe.

Does your question take into account quantum physics, or the idea of alternate or parallel universes which may have spawned our own?

If there are different universes, would there need to be different 'gods' to begin them all?

Would it also be fair to refer to a scientific singularity which kicked off the whirr and buzz of existence as 'god' simply out of awe?

I think not, on that last one. It will confuse people.

[Vendetta]

God: the thing behind the beginning of the universe.
So God isn't an entity, simply a reaction? Please be more specific with your definition. Did God create the Earth? Did it send his "son" down to earth to teach us compassion, et al? Is it omniscient? Is it omnipotent? Is it omnibenevolent?

I think that's a bad analogy, because humans didn't create the universe.
Seriously? Oh shit man, you fucking SUCK at understanding analogies. I didn't say we (humanity) made the car.

[Galliard]

That's a good question; I hadn't considered those options.

Then, you'd have to take into account that maybe two or more parallel universes were "created" by the expansion/ decay of other universes, which in turn were created in the same manner.

The question becomes, is there a singular starting point for our universe, or was it several factors? Could those factors combined create what we think of as God?

Go to town, with parallel universes and all. Besides, if our universe is the product of molecular, sub atomic, etc. reactions, then it should be duplicated elsewhere, right? I have yet to see a singular instance of something in all of nature (where something (atoms, helium, etc.) only happened once. Therefore, shouldn't there be more than one universe, supposedly acting/ reacting on the same level ours does?

[Vendetta]

That's a good question; I hadn't considered those options.

Then, you'd have to take into account that maybe two or more parallel universes were "created" by the expansion/ decay of other universes, which in turn were created in the same manner.

The question becomes, is there a singular starting point for our universe, or was it several factors? Could those factors combined create what we think of as God?

Go to town, with parallel universes and all. Besides, if our universe is the product of molecular, sub atomic, etc. reactions, then it should be duplicated elsewhere, right? I have yet to see a singular instance of something in all of nature (where something (atoms, helium, etc.) only happened once. Therefore, shouldn't there be more than one universe, supposedly acting/ reacting on the same level ours does?
Holy shit dude, what you DON'T understand about our universe and our scientific understanding of it could just about fill the Grand Canyon.

Whew, it's a good thing you can comprehend the entire universe and all that it entails. Also, you may see a singularity again, if you stick around long enough.

[Cosine]

This thread did make me think of this song. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KFt8WQkEvb8)

As I think I've already said, I'm firmly an atheist, but at the same time, I don't look at the idea of a God in some form or another as stupid/impossible. I just choose not to believe that there is an omnipotent being who cares about its' creations' personal lives. Nor do I buy into the idea of having a personal relation with such a being.

[Vendetta]

This thread did make me think of this song. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KFt8WQkEvb8)

As I think I've already said, I'm firmly an atheist, but at the same time, I don't look at the idea of a God in some form or another as stupid/impossible.
Uhhh, then how are you an atheist?

[Cosine]

You don't need to bash an idea to disagree with it. I haven't seen anything conclusively disproving the existance of a god/gods, I just don't agree with it (as stated in the other half of that post). If you can show me anything totally unambiguous that shows that a god cannot exist at all, I'll change my mind. Until then, I'd just as soon not alienate someone for something as minor as religion.

[Galliard]

So God isn't an entity, simply a reaction? Please be more specific with your definition. Did God create the Earth? Did it send his "son" down to earth to teach us compassion, et al? Is it omniscient? Is it omnipotent? Is it omnibenevolent?


Seriously? Oh shit man, you fucking SUCK at understanding analogies. I didn't say we (humanity) made the car.

1) Your analogy doesn't apply to me, because it isn't what is the driving force behind my debates as to God. I see the evidence of evolution; I can accept that. I see the evidence that the universe is expanding/ growing/ changing according to natural laws that we don't yet fully understand. I can accept that. What I want to know is, where the flying F*** did it come from in the first place?


2) God may or may not be omnipotent. God is not omnibenevolent. God did not send his "son" to teach us anything. God is a force, the force behind creation, the initial "singularity" that caused things to happen on a universal or multi- universal scale. God created the earth insomuch as it was the factor that began the universe. It may or may not be omniscient. It may or may not be intelligent as we view intelligence.

3)Does that narrow it down for you?

[Vendetta]

2) God may or may not be omnipotent. God is not omnibenevolent. God did not send his "son" to teach us anything. God is a force, the force behind creation, the initial "singularity" that caused things to happen on a universal or multi- universal scale. God created the earth insomuch as it was the factor that began the universe. It may or may not be omniscient. It may or may not be intelligent as we view intelligence.
So what you're saying is that you don't KNOW what God is. Thanks, now I completely understand.

[Galliard]

If God exists, then how would I know god in its entirety?

[Vendetta]

You don't need to bash an idea to disagree with it. I haven't seen anything conclusively disproving the existance of a god/gods, I just don't agree with it (as stated in the other half of that post). If you can show me anything totally unambiguous that shows that a god cannot exist at all, I'll change my mind. Until then, I'd just as soon not alienate someone for something as minor as religion.
First, then you need to stop calling yourself something that you're not. I could call myself a Mormon, but unless I adhere to the tenets of the Book of Mormon, I'm NOT. If you think that God is a possibility, then you're agnostic, not an atheist.

Also, religion minor? Whoah, where did YOU study history? And why is it wrong to alienate people if they believe something largely diametrical to what I do, and if they often can negatively influence my world from their often wrong-headed beliefs?

[Vendetta]

If God exists, then how would I know god in its entirety?
So you're saying God is unknowable, correct?

[Galliard]

In its entirety, yes. Parts of it? Such as proof it exists? I think we can find out yes or no to that, when we find out what makes the universe tick, and we're 100% right.

P.S., I also want to say that God isn't Spirit. I think that those are two separate things.

[Vendetta]

In its entirety, yes.
Then how the hell can anyone argue with you if you're trying to make a claim of a thing that is, by it's very nature unknowable? Also, why exactly is it unknowable?

[ThrasherCub]

That would be all of them, since they explain all naturally occurring phenomena in the universe and our day to day lives, without use or need for a deity.
Previously mentioned was the idea that manifest explanations for things are symptoms of God working things, either directly or indirectly. I don't see how having an understanding of the physical side of things proves that there is not or cannot be a spiritual side as well.

[Cosine]

Sure, why not. I haven't, don't, and won't believe that there is a god. If we're defining atheism as fanatically denying even some possibility of an intelligent force that created the universe, though, I'd rather call myself agnostic.

And yes, I don't put any stock at all in religion on a person-to-person basis. I've gotten along with raving fundamentalists just fine, and here's a surprise, they are in fact thinking, breathing, and most shocking of all, have legitimate (if misguided) reasons to see things the way they do.

Anyway, that's my .02 on a topic that I hate getting into to begin with. I'll step away from this now.

[Vendetta]

Sure, why not. I haven't, don't, and won't believe that there is a god. If we're defining atheism as fanatically denying even some possibility of an intelligent force that created the universe, though, I'd rather call myself agnostic.
Uhh yeah that's WHAT atheism means. It's not like I made this terminology up, but if we're going to use it, we should at least use it correctly. Also, what is the practical different between what you're calling god there, and "an intelligent force that created the universe"?

And yes, I don't put any stock at all in religion on a person-to-person basis. I've gotten along with raving fundamentalists just fine, and here's a surprise, they are in fact thinking, breathing, and most shocking of all, have legitimate (if misguided) reasons to see things the way they do.
Wow, naive much? I'm not questioning their reasons for their beliefs. I'm questioning what they DO with those beliefs (i.e. laws enacted to slow scientific and medical progress because it goes against "God", denigration of women or anyone else who's "different", et al. Yes people using religion have believed all of these things.)

[ThrasherCub]

Uhh yeah that's WHAT atheism means. It's not like I made this terminology up, but if we're going to use it, we should at least use it correctly.
I think the emphasis may have been on the fact that they are "fanatically denying" it, which doesn't seem too scientific.

[Vendetta]

I think the emphasis may have been on the fact that they are "fanatically denying" it, which doesn't seem too scientific.
I tell you what, you start showing some shred of evidence of spirutuality, God, or hell, ANY supernatural phemomena, and I'll stop fanatically denying it.

I'm pretty sure most of the evidence is on MY side on this one guys.

[Galliard]

Get me an EEG machine,an EKG, an MRI machine, a machine that monitors overall body temp at once through imagery, and a CAT scan machine, the personnel to run it, and we can do experiments on those who are "spiritually" inclined... psychic, etc. If there are drastic changes in brain functions, heart functions, etc, that can be monitored, then it would seem that it could be proved scientifically.

Oh, and I'll need about ten years and funding from the scientific community, cause I'm broke.

[BoxedCat]

I tell you what, you start showing some shred of evidence of spirutuality, God, or hell, ANY supernatural phemomena, and I'll stop fanatically denying it.

I'm pretty sure most of the evidence is on MY side on this one guys.

Evidence notwithstanding, there IS a fundamental need to have faith in something. Problem is, everyone assumes that their particular belief is right. Mine just happens to be supported by observation and experimentation, which is more than can be said for most of the population. As such...

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/9721/godswedontbelieveinx q3.jpg

Get me an EEG machine,an EKG, an MRI machine, a machine that monitors overall body temp at once through imagery, and a CAT scan machine, the personnel to run it, and we can do experiments on those who are "spiritually" inclined... psychic, etc. If there are drastic changes in brain functions, heart functions, etc, that can be monitored, then it would seem that it could be proved scientifically.

Oh, and I'll need about ten years and funding from the scientific community, cause I'm broke.

Unfortunately, that won't prove a damn thing, seeing as how religion is a man-made construct to begin with. All that equipment will only serve to show the fundies their biological flaws, without really addressing what in their mind they believe to be real.

[ThrasherCub]

I tell you what, you start showing some shred of evidence of spirutuality, God, or hell, ANY supernatural phemomena, and I'll stop fanatically denying it.

I'm pretty sure most of the evidence is on MY side on this one guys.

Start showing evidence that the idea that our scientifically understood reasons behind things aren't just the physical side of things.

All science proves is the "why" of the physical side, not that there isn't a spiritual side.

Also, have you considered