Could God and the Devil be the same guy?

[dwulf]

My ex's dad came to my job to preach to me when I stopped attending their church. He said that the devil was an oppressive force keeping me away from the church, when in fact it was his god that was that force.

He went on about how the devil is here to steal my joy and the devil steals, kills, and destroys. I glared at his bible(which he carries everywhere with him) and told him that there are more instances in which God steals, kills, and destroys than the devil.

Oh, now he's pissed. He told me that I didn't understand God's plan. My reply:"Dude, your God destroyed the entire fucking planet at one point! He's not planning shit. Not even he knows what the fuck he's doing."

We take it outside and I explain to him all the people God has killed. He killed those who worshipped other gods. He got pissed once and handed the Jews over to the babylonians to be slaughtered. He destroyed virtually all life-forms on earth with the great flood. He nuked Sodom and Gomorrah while simultaneously vaporizing Lot's wife. He killed every firstborn in Egypt, regardless of species. Killed the Pharoah's army. Killed all the Midianite males and kings, entire kingdoms, the ammonites, the horims, the citizens of Jericho, the people of Ai, the people of Makkedah, Libnah, Gezer, Eglon, Hebron, Gaza, Askerlon, Ekron...AND the Moabites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, Bethshemesh, the sons of Aaron, many Israelites(just for bitching), and a man for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. All this shit in spite of the fact that the Ten Commandments forbid murder. There are instances in which the biblical God actually encourages rape and cannibalism as well as child sacrifice.

He replies that this is an occurence that stops in the New Testament. I called him on his bullshit and said that if he turns to Acts, he'll find that his very own bible will suggest otherwise.

He tells me it was justified because they were heathens and that anyone who defies God's will deserves such a fate. My response:"If what you say about death and destruction is true and that these heinous acts committed by an all powerful God can be attributed to the devil, then either your God is powerless against the devil or your God is the Devil."

Rendered speechless, the guy storms off and drives away like a bat out of hell. To tell you the truth, even I was surprised by the conclusion I had reached. But after serious consideration, why wouldn't it be possible? Maybe God and the Devil are the same entity, if they/it exist(s) at all.

[spirit]

One reason why I personally do not follow the church is the contradictions. Yet I am fairly knowledgeable w/ the Bible..

Another instance you left out(I think) was Job(the guy not employment) God allowed Satan to test Job taking everything from him and giving him illness and other "curses"

The main biblical difference is often God's wrath is "testing faith" or "the greater good" where as the devil's is just seen as evil. or an extreme faith test that if you fail your toast.


I do not think them to be the same entity but instead two forces that can act the same yet one is good the other evil.

[dwulf]

Fair enough. But it still wouldn't explain God's murder of innocent men, women, children, and even animals. He's guilty of their MURDER. He did kill them for sustanence and if he's all powerful, then he sure as hell didn't do it in self defense.

[spirit]

True. Like I said the Bible is full of contradictions.

I agree with you, it is a messed up deal. It seems as though we are punished for our wrongs but he is immune.

[dwulf]

Yeah. Sometimes I want to go antichrist on his ass.

[MorganaFang]

Fair enough. But it still wouldn't explain God's murder of innocent men, women, children, and even animals. He's guilty of their MURDER. He did kill them for sustanence and if he's all powerful, then he sure as hell didn't do it in self defense.

Once upon a time there was a man called Job. Now Job lived a life of plenty: good land, hot ladies, strong suns and kickass livestock. Job had no enemies and did nothing to earn such. All this he could owe to his piousness to God.

Well the devil, taking note of this good man Job has a thought. Job would not be so happy with God if he weren't living a life of much kickassery.

Devil shares this thought with God and dares him to take away all of what Job has, completely destroying his life without killing him just to see how Job would react.

God slyly takes on the dare and in a matter of very little time Jobs land yields no bounty, his life stock is stricken with plague, his children starve, his wives die and just about everything is lost to him aside from his breath.

By the by, I should add that Job in no way is aware of this little game the devil and god are playing.

Barely man, untouchable, and tragically unlucky Job folds his hands in pray. Not condeming God, not begging why he has forsaken him, nothing like that at all. Job just expresses his faith and unwaiving love for God.

Devil obiviously loses dare. Within time a better life is restored to Job or he dies and goes to heaven I not quite sure.

Moral of the story however, is that if you have faith and everlasting love for God, even through the times that test you, eventually you will be rewarded whether in this life or the next. Which seems like an unfortunate Crock.

There is something to keeping positive throughout the hard moments of your life but whether or not it should have to be with the christian god is not something I can say.

To me it seems like a story of God can do whatever he wants at any time, and by our reaction serve to pass judgement on us. Reject his will and we are a pilar of salt. Weather the storm and be rewarded with riches, though not necessarily right away, or when your alive, weeellll maybe.

I do not think God and the Devil are the same even while thinking of them as mythological elements.

Devil seems a lot more straight forward and whole lot less testing faiths. Often he is the tool through which god works but he is not god and god is not him.

blah blah blah

[DarkHunter]

The Old Testament Satan is in little ways a "devil" aside from being a tool for "negative" acts. In the Old Testament, God so much as states flat out that he orchestrates both good AND evil.

So, the way you're using "devil" could apply.

The common understanding of "Devil" is found only in apocalyptic Judaism and Christianity, invented to act as "the author of evil" in order to make God's love and benevolence seem complete.

[UNODRAGONE]

I am going to apologize ahead of time, I have read the bible but don't remember much. My understanding is that Lucifer was a fallen angel, so how could him and God be the same person????

[Vendetta]

I am going to apologize ahead of time, I have read the bible but don't remember much. My understanding is that Lucifer was a fallen angel, so how could him and God be the same person????
First, isn't God everything? If he is, well then, there's your answer.

Second, the name Lucifer was never meant as a proper noun. It was a descriptive word meaning 'morning star'. And the only Biblical reference this 'morning star' occurs in Isaiah 14:12...

When the Lord has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has ceased! How his insolence has ceased! … How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: "Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who would not let his prisoners go home?"

In this example they are directly referring to a man, a King of Babylon, not a fallen angel. The direct reference to Satan being cast from heaven occurs in Revelations 12:7-10. No mention of a Lucifer.

[UNODRAGONE]

First, isn't God everything? If he is, well then, there's your answer.

Second, the name Lucifer was never meant as a proper noun. It was a descriptive word meaning 'morning star'. And the only Biblical reference this 'morning star' occurs in Isaiah 14:12...

When the Lord has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has ceased! How his insolence has ceased! … How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: "Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who would not let his prisoners go home?"

In this example they are directly referring to a man, a King of Babylon, not a fallen angel. The direct reference to Satan being cast from heaven occurs in Revelations 12:7-10. No mention of a Lucifer.

you're right, again I haven't read the bible in awhile and for some reason that stuck in my mind but then again I also found this

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

[Pickle Tickler]

Once I had the same idea about God and the Devil (now I'm not so sure.) Since God is everything, then the Devil could be a part of him and yet not a part of him, like Christ. It's a plausible theory, but I'm rapidly losing my faith anyway, so it hardly matters to me anymore.

[dwulf]

Supposedly, there are many devils. Satan is just the alleged chieftan of them.

As the story goes, according to my brainwashed community, 'Lucifer' was the most beautiful of God's angels and was banished for challenging god's authority.

Lucifer was probably just tired of God's tyrannical bullshit and said,"You know what? Enough is enough. Fuck you God. We don't have to take this shit. Who's with me?"

Of coarse God couldn't let this guy seem as if he had a bigger pair than that of the Almighty, so God sent his ass packing.

If this is how it happened, which I'm pretty sure none of it happened in the first place, but just for the sake of all that truly believe, then I don't think Lucifer is the bad guy in this.

Religious folk call him the devil because the bible(which was supposedly authored by God) labels him as such. If anything, the fallen one should be viewed as the good guy. He encourages intellectual growth and freedom of expression, does he not. Then how the fuck can you call him the devil.

God, the true oppressive force in the "book with all the answers", should be the one called the devil. He's the source of oppression, fear, and destruction. The bastard is a cosmic terrorist, for crying out loud.

The only reason that I believe in this God is because I really want to believe that every single person that has died in his name died for a reason. If there is no God, then they all died for absolutely nothing. Thus I believe in a cruel and demented God, who really needs some fucking help.

And just for the hell of it. Let's say that his God is the absolute true God. Let's also say that there is life on other planets. Let's say that life is intellegent. What the hell makes you think that he would choose humans of all creatures to be held special among all. Come on man. If there are intellegent aliens out there and their thinking is similar to ours, then they would believe that the universe was made for them too.

But I'm straying a bit here. Anyway, the guy currently label as the devil should be thought of as a revolutionary. He tells us that we don't need an oppressive ruler to make our decisions for us because we can make our own decisions. He is fighting the good fight. Not God. As far as I'm concered, satan is one of us and God is the true chief devil.

[Cosine]

That's an interesting way of looking at it. Personally, I've always gone with the idea that any god that demands worship and donation to a 100% mortal organization or they'll damn you to eternal punishment isn't doing much worth worshipping to begin with.

[Golden Howl]

We take it outside and I explain to him all the people God has killed. He killed those who worshipped other gods. He got pissed once and handed the Jews over to the babylonians to be slaughtered. He destroyed virtually all life-forms on earth with the great flood. He nuked Sodom and Gomorrah while simultaneously vaporizing Lot's wife. He killed every firstborn in Egypt, regardless of species. Killed the Pharoah's army. Killed all the Midianite males and kings, entire kingdoms, the ammonites, the horims, the citizens of Jericho, the people of Ai, the people of Makkedah, Libnah, Gezer, Eglon, Hebron, Gaza, Askerlon, Ekron...AND the Moabites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, Bethshemesh, the sons of Aaron, many Israelites(just for bitching), and a man for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. All this shit in spite of the fact that the Ten Commandments forbid murder. Call me crazy, because it's not the wisest choice to step into a discussion such as this...First of all, he had murdered all those people for multiple reasons. Some of those reasons are beyond our comprehension because we are merely human. His creation was screwed up...Come on, wouldn't you be frustrated if something you had made didn't turn out right? He had every right to destroy it, and the problem here is that you judge God as an equal, like he's one of us. You can't put the congruent restrictions upon him as he has put upon us. And don't give me that 'Oh, what about the innocent people' bull because when Jesus died upon the cross he went to hell to rescue all the souls trapped within, including the ones he had murdered.

There are instances in which the biblical God actually encourages rape and cannibalism as well as child sacrifice. I don't know where you got this little idea, but I highly doubt that.

Religious folk call him the devil because the bible(which was supposedly authored by God) labels him as such. If anything, the fallen one should be viewed as the good guy. He encourages intellectual growth and freedom of expression, does he not. Then how the fuck can you call him the devil.
No, he displays selfishness. He's not as innocent as he seems, yeah freedom of expression and all, but the guy was rebelling against God & attempting to steal God's place. He desired to overtake God & possess his power. He wanted to be God.
And how could he even challenge such a thing when he was granted the honor of being the most beautiful of all angels? He wasn't being thankful. It's not like he was questioning God's ways in a polite manner or anything. Like "Hey God, I was wondering why you did that or this...I mean come on, what's up with that?" And God would smile at his sense of curiousity & like a father explain everything. And even then if he wasn't satisified with the answer, they could have a mature & friendly debate. Don't be thinking that's how it was, cause that's perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with that, even I have demanding questions every now & then.

[ThrasherCub]

And how could he even challenge such a thing when he was granted the honor of being the most beautiful of all angels? He wasn't being thankful.

So in short, the Devil is naughty because he wasn't content and wanted to expand to his full potential?

God must be a real dick.

[Rascaduanok]

I once read a short story, though I forget by whom, where it turns out that God and Satan do indeed form split parts of a single personality. The twist comes from the fact that the Devil existed first, and when he went schizo turned into God. The end of the story sees him handing command of hell over to his second in command, ascending some stairs, growing a white beard and stepping into Heaven.

[dwulf]

His creation was screwed up...Come on, wouldn't you be frustrated if something you had made didn't turn out right?

What? I thought God was perfect. Thus, anything he does cannot be flawed. This implies that he's not omnipotent. Humans are supposedly God's children. Yet he killed them because they didn't turn out the way he wanted them to. Let's see. That's like saying telling your son that since he became a lawyer instead of a doctor you're going to kill him because you wanted him to be a doctor. Look. You seem like a nice person, but hands down, God just doesn't seem like a hero in my book.

As for the fallen one. Yeah, he may be selfish and a manipulative prick, but so is God. The dude is a cosmic terrorist and I can't see him as this totally awesome good guy that you guys make him out to be. I'm not picking a bone with you Golden Howl. I'm picking one with "The Almighty".

I'm sick of people talking shit about judgement day as well. I want to be judged right now. I'm not going to change for anyone. I change my beliefs once for someone and they proved that to be a big mistake. So if Revalations is going to happen I want it to happen right now. If God's got a shitload of punishment in store for me, then I'm going to take it like a man.

[Destiny]

(This isn't the greatest idea to jump into this conversation/discussion, but hey, I'm brave.)

I agree with GoldenHowl on some of this...I mean it's not his fault his creation didn't turn out as planned. God has a plan for everything...I think he has multiple plans though because he gave humans the gift of choice, choices that change destiny/fate. But I do think that there is one permanent outcome...that eventually all of us will have to face...it's just a matter of getting there.

[MorganaFang]

God frustrated with people he created in his own image? God creator of all things, time, life, fate has a divine plan. However it is not his fault when people do not follow it?

This is one of the most retarded arguments for the old testament's God I have ever read.

[Destiny]

No it's not. Or so I believe but you have your opinion and I have mine. Obviously none of us actually know what His plan is...it'd be quite a miracle or rather surprising thing if we did...but if our life goes bad I think it's more our fault than His. I mean isn't that what our teachers have taught us all along in school? "If you get a bad grade on a test don't blame me.It's not my fault you failed, it's your own." It's a plan none of us can comprehend, but I do believe it exists...again it just depends on the choices we make...look at Lucifer...the most beautiful of all angels, turned renegade. It seems God gives all creatures he makes the gift of choice. It's what we do with it that screws everything else up. And again I think there will be a definite outcome...Like an explosion waiting to happen, an impending doom, a ticking time bomb...or it could be awesome...who knows? No one does.

Unfortunately I do, in the end, agree this is pointless. Everyone's going to have an opinion that's different. It'd be like one side of a war saying it's right and the other saying it's right....both of different beliefs...unchanging minds...they'll never accomplish anything. Oh well. It's been fun sharing. :)

[dwulf]

No it's not. Or so I believe but you have your opinion and I have mine. Obviously none of us actually know what His plan is...it'd be quite a miracle or rather surprising thing if we did...but if our life goes bad I think it's more our fault than His. I mean isn't that what our teachers have taught us all along in school? "If you get a bad grade on a test don't blame me.It's not my fault you failed, it's your own." It's a plan none of us can comprehend, but I do believe it exists...again it just depends on the choices we make...look at Lucifer...the most beautiful of all angels, turned renegade. It seems God gives all creatures he makes the gift of choice. It's what we do with it that screws everything else up. And again I think there will be a definite outcome...Like an explosion waiting to happen, an impending doom, a ticking time bomb...or it could be awesome...who knows? No one does.

Unfortunately I do, in the end, agree this is pointless. Everyone's going to have an opinion that's different. It'd be like one side of a war saying it's right and the other saying it's right....both of different beliefs...unchanging minds...they'll never accomplish anything. Oh well. It's fun been fun sharing. :)

Is it a cancer patient's fault that he/she has cancer? Is it a parent's fault when his/her child is killed in a tornado, flood, or any other "act of God"? Sorry but I don't wholeheartedly agree with that.

[Destiny]

"act of God"? Load of bull. One time God fixs what his creation ruined...(which we're still not doing such a handy job now either)...and he's blamed for everyone that dies now?!

Also, what kind of cancer? If it's from smoking then yeah it's your fault, even diseases can be your fault sometimes, like with the liver disease (just put down the glass of whiskey). Some things are in our control...others not so much...but no one does know for sure who's hands our lives lie in.

[MorganaFang]

No it's not.

Yes it is, you guys are saying things that are contradicting each other.

Obviously none of us actually know what His plan is...it'd be quite a miracle or rather surprising thing if we did...

Ok so if you do not know what his plan is how can you know people are going against it, thusly rightly justified in earning God's supposed anger?

but if our life goes bad I think it's more our fault than His.

If one make a bad choice, then yes one should own up to the consequences.

It is a completely hole ridden argument to go. "Well god was pissed then so he killed bad people for ruining creation. Today though he is a loving God and we have no idea what he really has planned even though people are doing a lot worse things these days than they did in the past."


Some things are in our control...others not so much...but no one does know for sure who's hands our lives lie in.

Colon Cancer, Breast Cancer, Brain Tumors, Lukemia, adolescent diabetes from birth, Genetic disorders.

Now I'm not blaming God here, namely because that is not where my faith lies.

However, kiddo, by your logic being presented of people in all bad situations have deserved those diseases.

Lung cancer also is not always smoking related. No one, not ever, whether smoking or not, deserves cancer and you are a heartless asshole to ever think that.

[Destiny]

If I said someone deserved to have cancer then I apologize, I was just trying to say exactly what you said: if one makes a bad choice, then yes one should own up to the consequences. I didn't mean, if I did, to say that people deserve cancer or diseases (no one deserves something to be wrong with their genetic makeup) ...you're abosolutely right, no one deserves cancer, I'm just saying sometimes it could be their own fault. And I said "if" it's from smoking ,I didn't say lung cancer either. If you get a cancer from smoking then it is your fault...No you don't deserve it, but it is the consequences of a bad habit.

[RQ]

Do I have to have TWO imaginary friends, or can my one imaginary friend just have two facets of his personality?

[dwulf]

Do I have to have TWO imaginary friends, or can my one imaginary friend just have two facets of his personality?

:D

[ThrasherCub]

I mean it's not his fault his creation didn't turn out as planned.
That would imply that his actions were changed or counter-acted by outside influences, thereby disproving his omnipotence. If he were omnipotent then nothing would have been able to stop him (meaning he made us like this on purpose) or he allowed something to stop him knowing full well what it would do (meaning he made us like this on purpose).

OMNIPOTENT. It's one of the things the Christian God is. Why do Christians compulsively ignore that fact?

[Destiny]

He did make us like this on purpose...but He made us with a will and thought process subject to choices on purpose so if we act on violence or destroy our bodies by poluting it then it's our fault. We choose a certain path everyday.

[dwulf]

Sorry, honey, but if he made us this way, it came with the violence. Hell, even animals fight all the time. We just go overboard with it. Crusades. Holocaust. Jihad. Salem Witch Trials. I can keep going.

[Destiny]

Yeah I edited...I meant I don't believe he's the one who made us so violent, he just gave us a choice to be violent or the choice to do anything basically. Thanks. Going overboard never does turn out good does it?

[dwulf]

God made man in his image. Selfish, egotistic, maniacal, paranoid,etc. Sounds more like man made god in his image.

[spirit]

If god is all knowing what was the point of making us with free will when he already knows whether we will give in to temptaion?

[Destiny]

I think it was that he had faith that we'd choose him in the end.

I never saw God as those things, but okay.

[dwulf]

Sending a bunch of snakes to kill people just for complaining about their living conditions is certainly maniacal if you ask me.:mad:

[Destiny]

HUH?! I don't remember that one but I guess I'll just go back and refresh my memory.

[ThrasherCub]

He did make us like this on purpose...but He made us with a will and thought process subject to choices on purpose so if we act on violence or destroy our bodies by poluting it then it's our fault. We choose a certain path everyday.

That explains self-inflicted harm. What about harming others?

Is God chill with rape because the rapist had a will and thought process which lead to the conclusion that raping someone is a grand idea?

[Destiny]

I never said that the person wouldn't use such mind skills as to be an idiot and go kill someone or rape someone...I just said that they had a will and thought process...I never said they'd know how to use it properly...But anyway...this is never going to end...People will have their opinion and I shall have mine...Good day...It's been fun. :)

[DarkHunter]

Check out LV's picture sometime. Thats not just a random joke about bears. It actually happens in the Bible. Kids fuck with God. God sends bears to eat them.

I think that the Old Testament should be taught (in all its glory) to first graders.

[MorganaFang]

Yeah I edited...I meant I don't believe he's the one who made us so violent, he just gave us a choice to be violent or the choice to do anything basically. Thanks. Going overboard never does turn out good does it?

Again contradicting. God made violence, God allowed man a choice to be violent.

Saying that man is souly responsible for violence is like saying man has power over god. Therefore God is not so Godly.

edit which is basically what dwulf said :p

[Petrone]

Check out LV's picture sometime. Thats not just a random joke about bears. It actually happens in the Bible. Kids fuck with God. God sends bears to eat them.

I think that the Old Testament should be taught (in all its glory) to first graders.

Yes, let's teach all the impressionable little kiddies about Jephthah - Judges XI, verse 26-40. Then we could get them to have discussions about familial sacrifice. Then we might give them guns.

[Destiny]

Wait...Okay I believe that man has the ability to be violent in any way...angainst each other and self...but I don't think God created violence...I think the devil did, since to just about every Christian he is the bad guy and God is the good guy.

Again this is just my opinion...you don't have to like it or anything as many have already pointed out, but I'm done trying to convey my point...( Frankly because I'm not the good at speaking my opinions on any subject, and that's my fault. But thank you all for pointing out my mistakes...really. :) )...I've tried and tried...But in the end everyone will keep their opinion and I shall keep mine. :)

[Golden Howl]

What? I thought God was perfect. Thus, anything he does cannot be flawed. This implies that he's not omnipotent. Humans are supposedly God's children. Yet he killed them because they didn't turn out the way he wanted them to. Let's see. That's like saying telling your son that since he became a lawyer instead of a doctor you're going to kill him because you wanted him to be a doctor. Look. You seem like a nice person, but hands down, God just doesn't seem like a hero in my book. Free-will is a complicated subject....but I'll give it a shot. Just because you gave someone free will doesn't mean you placed violence, greed & all that other crap into them. For example, let's say you were some fantastic scientist & you created a robot similiar to humans, but better in some aspects. Its brain is alike to ours, you did not completely control it. It would obey you because you were its creator & it loved ya. Now, you desire to send it out into the world to have adventure & experience new things. When you made it, it was free of all the violence, greed, hate etc. but once it entered the world, it became imperfect. It turned against you & say it decided to become a criminal. Is it because you put that into him? No, it's because the evil within this world influenced him & eventually he picked up those unwanted emotions/aspects of personality. He wasn't strong enough to resist & eventually he developed like that. It's like a contagious disease that no one really has an immune defense against. Did you catch the disease because it was originally within the person's DNA? No. Does that make sense?


As for the fallen one. Yeah, he may be selfish and a manipulative prick, but so is God. The dude is a cosmic terrorist and I can't see him as this totally awesome good guy that you guys make him out to be. I'm not picking a bone with you Golden Howl. I'm picking one with "The Almighty".

No, it's not like a kid becoming a lawyer instead of a doctor. That's too innocent to compare to this. It's more like a little kid attempting to overtake his father & switch places forcing his father to be his slave. And enjoy the power that his father had rightfully earned.


I'm not picking a bone with you Golden Howl. I'm picking one with "The Almighty".

I know that. You're not some jerk thinking, "Hey let's piss off some Christians today." I'm aware that you're expressing your mind & all. And it's cool, because your ideas pressure me to think harder. However it's all been building up due to the constant fact that everyone around here is complaining & moaning about Christianity. It's a bit upsetting because it seems as if it's only religion that everyone rips apart & casts down. I haven't yet seen another thread groaning about some other religion. And you know, I wouldn't even mind it that much if it wasn't practically 100% negative. I honestly haven't seen a positive thread about this way of life. Has anybody else?




I'm sick of people talking shit about judgement day as well. I want to be judged right now. I'm not going to change for anyone. I change my beliefs once for someone and they proved that to be a big mistake. So if Revalations is going to happen I want it to happen right now. If God's got a shitload of punishment in store for me, then I'm going to take it like a man. I doubt this has anything to do with me, but I'll respond anyway. Don't be thinking that I'm some freakish person who carries their Bible around everywhere cause I'm not. I'm not even trying to convert you, you shouldn't change for somebody else. You should change for yourself. The only thing I'm attempting to do is assist you in getting a slightly more logical & positive outlook on this. And of course have a debate. I indeed do love debates. :D

[Destiny]

I think Golden Howl expressed herself on this subject far better than anyone else I know could on here. :) Thank you much. :) I too believe it's odd how everyone has something bad to say about Christianity and no other religion...Not that Christianity doesn't have it's wackos, every religion does. (Now I'm really done...I swear...No I'm not addicted to confronation and debating...Okay...Ma ybe a little.)

[Galliard]

To those of you who haven't heard anything bad about any other religions: look up the threads on Wicca! It's a US government- recognized religion, that started sometime in the last century(I think it was the fifties), and boy howdy, when people don't know what the **** they're talking about, there's a lot of slamming that goes on... the same with any religious discussion.

[Destiny]

Oh...Well thank you. :) I do realize that when the subject comes up on other religions people do slam them as well...but right now it just seems that it's all directed towards Christianity...thoug h this thread is about God and the devil...(But really, thanks.) :) (Okay...so I'm not done...can I help it if this is soooo addicting to me?...I can, but do I want to?)

[Petrone]

If it's any consolation to anyone, I am ready and willing to logically deride pretty much any theistic religion you care to name. I leave the nature worship alone, cos I like trees and bunny rabbits. I do apologize if during my rants I pick on Christianity itself, however, this was the religion I was born and raised in, so for me it is the most accessible. I only use it as an example of all theistic belief systems.

"What's the definition of a religious war? Two groups of people slaughtering each other over who has the best imaginary friend!" Ba-da-doom!

[MorganaFang]

Please no more explanation on how everything is you opinion. Dude it is the internet, the knowledge that people are posting opinions comes with logging on. OK? moving on.

Wait...Okay I believe that man has the ability to be violent in any way...angainst each other and self...but I don't think God created violence...I think the devil did, since to just about every Christian he is the bad guy and God is the good guy.


Ok in your views who created existence?

Who created the devil?

If God is all powerful and all knowing why does he allow there to be the devil and consequently evil? Especially if it goes against his plan?

And again this does not answer the point that Man possessing violence holds a power over god.

Believe it or not, I have a lot of respect for a lot people of faith.

What bugs me is people presenting bad arguments in support of their faith. Where people say one thing and then do a 180 to say another thing that completely contradicts what they just said. It pretty much goes for any kind of discussion whether religous or no.

[DarkHunter]

Yes, let's teach all the impressionable little kiddies about Jephthah - Judges XI, verse 26-40. Then we could get them to have discussions about familial sacrifice. Then we might give them guns.

Take a child who knows nothing about Christianity into a cathedral and what will they see? Nice decorations, pretty pretty scenery.....and a big sculpture of a man being tortured to death. Children who have yet to have prejudices and ideas of "virtue" fed to them would see right through Christianity.

Its only AFTER they're indoctrinated that they're allowed to see the "real" Bible. Pick up a children's bible and turn to Revelations if you don't believe me.

Then ask yourself, if everybody was one hundred percent honest about it from the get go, would they still be Christians when they grew up?

They might still be. But I at least say give them a fighting chance.

[ThrasherCub]

Pick up a children's bible and turn to Revelations if you don't believe me.

I'm totally going to do that, possibly tomorow (no book stores are open at 11 at night for some reason).

[Petrone]

I didn't know there was such a thing as children's bibles. I must see if I can get one.

Hey, does that mean they do a diet Bible too?

[ThrasherCub]

Hey, does that mean they do a diet Bible too?

Why not? There's the Mentally Handicapped Bible (http://bible.christianity.c om/bibles/translation/king-james-version/kjv/), for people too stupid to know the history of their own text.

[MorganaFang]

I didn't know there was such a thing as children's bibles. I must see if I can get one.

Hey, does that mean they do a diet Bible too?

Manga bibles now too. ph33r

[dwulf]

Free-will is a complicated subject....but I'll give it a shot. Just because you gave someone free will doesn't mean you placed violence, greed & all that other crap into them. For example, let's say you were some fantastic scientist & you created a robot similiar to humans, but better in some aspects. Its brain is alike to ours, you did not completely control it. It would obey you because you were its creator & it loved ya. Now, you desire to send it out into the world to have adventure & experience new things. When you made it, it was free of all the violence, greed, hate etc. but once it entered the world, it became imperfect. It turned against you & say it decided to become a criminal. Is it because you put that into him? No, it's because the evil within this world influenced him & eventually he picked up those unwanted emotions/aspects of personality. He wasn't strong enough to resist & eventually he developed like that. It's like a contagious disease that no one really has an immune defense against. Did you catch the disease because it was originally within the person's DNA? No. Does that make sense?



No, it's not like a kid becoming a lawyer instead of a doctor. That's too innocent to compare to this. It's more like a little kid attempting to overtake his father & switch places forcing his father to be his slave. And enjoy the power that his father had rightfully earned.



I know that. You're not some jerk thinking, "Hey let's piss off some Christians today." I'm aware that you're expressing your mind & all. And it's cool, because your ideas pressure me to think harder. However it's all been building up due to the constant fact that everyone around here is complaining & moaning about Christianity. It's a bit upsetting because it seems as if it's only religion that everyone rips apart & casts down. I haven't yet seen another thread groaning about some other religion. And you know, I wouldn't even mind it that much if it wasn't practically 100% negative. I honestly haven't seen a positive thread about this way of life. Has anybody else?



I doubt this has anything to do with me, but I'll respond anyway. Don't be thinking that I'm some freakish person who carries their Bible around everywhere cause I'm not. I'm not even trying to convert you, you shouldn't change for somebody else. You should change for yourself. The only thing I'm attempting to do is assist you in getting a slightly more logical & positive outlook on this. And of course have a debate. I indeed do love debates. :D

What the...Um. If this scientists knew that this world was so f'ed up, why did he send his androids into it in the first place? The droids have every right to be pissed.

And what position did god rightfully earn. He didn't earn anything. He just poofed up and said I'm God. He didn't earn shit.

Sweetie. I'm not beating down Christianity, only it's God. That same God is in Islam and Judaism. Can't say anything about any other religions because, they've been written off as pure mythology these days. Hopefully, all religion will die off one day.

And no, you're merely trying to give me a more positive view of your God. There is nothing logical about him. His murderous, yet loving. Hmm. I guess we can let all murderers who have families of the hook too. Thou shalt not murder was one of his commandments, but he broke it more than anyone.

And if the devil is the one who kills, steals, and destroy, name one instance in the bible in which he did so.

[Petrone]

Don't be thinking that I'm some freakish person who carries their Bible around everywhere cause I'm not. I'm not even trying to convert you, you shouldn't change for somebody else. You should change for yourself. The only thing I'm attempting to do is assist you in getting a slightly more logical & positive outlook on this. And of course have a debate. I indeed do love debates. :D

Thank you, Howl, debate is all we're here for. I have my vies, you have yours, so naturally we're gonna try and pressure the other into our own opinions, as humans do. My own rants are often based on nothing more than my own thoughts and opinions. As long as you realize it's happening, you can stop it and go back to logic.

The only thing I am confused about is that sometimes, my knowledge and analysis of some of these holy books seems to be more complete than those of the true believers. Does this mean they haven't read their own rule book?

What really makes me want to skin penquins is when I'm talking to someone who constantly points to their Bible, Qu'ran, Torah, Vedas, Tripitaka, and confidently tells me the answers are there if only I know how to look. And then stick their fingers in their ears and hum real loud when I say I've looked, but felt strangely cold afterwards.

My outlook is positive, as I'm sure others have gathered from my posts. I know there's an end, so I get out and do what I can every chance I get, relying on my own body and mind to get me through the day.

[Golden Howl]

What the...Um. If this scientists knew that this world was so f'ed up, why did he send his androids into it in the first place? The droids have every right to be pissed. Well, that's one thing I forgot to place in my previous post. Adam & Eve the common story amongst practically everyone. When they were created, the world was nice & all. Satan disguised as a serpent was there, & influenced them.

And what position did god rightfully earn. He didn't earn anything. He just poofed up and said I'm God. He didn't earn shit. No, the guy created the whole universe. It's as simple as that. (Of course this won't work if you believe in the big bang)


Sweetie. I'm not beating down Christianity, only it's God. That same God is in Islam and Judaism. Can't say anything about any other religions because, they've been written off as pure mythology these days. Hopefully, all religion will die off one day.
Actually, I don't believe it's such a great idea if you hope all religion to die off, & even so, I highly doubt it will. It may seem like a useless & crappy thing that would be better off gone, but you never know. That kinda sounds like a good thread, "What would the world be like if all religion disappeared? Good or Bad? Or neutral?"


And if the devil is the one who kills, steals, and destroy, name one instance in the bible in which he did so.

No, I am not going to. Because I'm not some sort of freak who's obsessed with proving you wrong. Oooohhh, I'm gonna get my Bible & smack you down with it, yeah right. It's unlikely that it would effect you anyway.

Thank you, Howl, debate is all we're here for. I have my vies, you have yours, so naturally we're gonna try and pressure the other into our own opinions, as humans do. My own rants are often based on nothing more than my own thoughts and opinions. As long as you realize it's happening, you can stop it and go back to logic.

The only thing I am confused about is that sometimes, my knowledge and analysis of some of these holy books seems to be more complete than those of the true believers. Does this mean they haven't read their own rule book?

What really makes me want to skin penquins is when I'm talking to someone who constantly points to their Bible, Qu'ran, Torah, Vedas, Tripitaka, and confidently tells me the answers are there if only I know how to look. And then stick their fingers in their ears and hum real loud when I say I've looked, but felt strangely cold afterwards.

My outlook is positive, as I'm sure others have gathered from my posts. I know there's an end, so I get out and do what I can every chance I get, relying on my own body and mind to get me through the day.

I'm not exactly sure how to respond to this... You're new here & I don't know your style or anything. Are you being sarcastic or sincere?

[Galliard]

One, I think he was being sincere.

Two, if the world didn't have religion, I believe things would still be the same. Humans have war because their ideas don't match, because they want something that another people have, or religion. Take away religion, and you still have the other two to fight over. Likewise, it's common sense to be kind to another, to be treated, and to treat others, fairly; a set of ideals that are not confined to any one religion, and I think it's safe to say that these are ideals based on the betterment of humanity, rather than solely religion. However, Religion did help bolster those ideals, and others like them.

The only difference is that there may be more people actively seeking eternal life through scientific means, and we would have advanced quite a bit further in the realms of space exploration and medicine, in my own opinion.

[Vendetta]

Well, that's one thing I forgot to place in my previous post. Adam & Eve the common story amongst practically everyone.
Practically everyone, what? You DO know that there are other creation myths that do not read the same as the Judeo-Christian one right?

Satan disguised as a serpent was there, & influenced them.
See this just shows me that you don't know your Bible. There is no place in the Bible where it states that the serpent was Satan.

No, the guy created the whole universe. It's as simple as that. (Of course this won't work if you believe in the big bang)
I'm sure there are some people who can reconcile the two things as NOT being mutually exclusive. On the other hand, I don't believe in the 'Big Bang', I "believe" in redshift, Cosmic microwave background radiation, nucleosynthesis and the large-scale structure of the cosmos. Mostly because those things have been PROVEN.

No, I am not going to. Because I'm not some sort of freak who's obsessed with proving you wrong. Oooohhh, I'm gonna get my Bible & smack you down with it, yeah right. It's unlikely that it would effect you anyway.
So this is the equivalent to the " nuh uh, YOU ARE" argument? I think the problem here is that you are actually fairly unfamiliar with the book in question.

[LV426]

Hey, does that mean they do a diet Bible too?

Yes actually they do.

http://www.aggelia.com/htdocs/health.shtml

[dwulf]

One, I think he was being sincere.

Two, if the world didn't have religion, I believe things would still be the same. Humans have war because their ideas don't match, because they want something that another people have, or religion. Take away religion, and you still have the other two to fight over. Likewise, it's common sense to be kind to another, to be treated, and to treat others, fairly; a set of ideals that are not confined to any one religion, and I think it's safe to say that these are ideals based on the betterment of humanity, rather than solely religion. However, Religion did help bolster those ideals, and others like them.

The only difference is that there may be more people actively seeking eternal life through scientific means, and we would have advanced quite a bit further in the realms of space exploration and medicine, in my own opinion.

Good point. :)

[Golden Howl]

Practically everyone, what? You DO know that there are other creation myths that do not read the same as the Judeo-Christian one right? Yes, I am aware there are other creation myths. I have read several on how wolves created the universe & such.


See this just shows me that you don't know your Bible. There is no place in the Bible where it states that the serpent was Satan. Actually, it doesn't state that the serpent was Satan in the beginning However if you check out Revelation 12:9 it does. "The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray....."


I'm sure there are some people who can reconcile the two things as NOT being mutually exclusive. On the other hand, I don't believe in the 'Big Bang', I "believe" in redshift, Cosmic microwave background radiation, nucleosynthesis and the large-scale structure of the cosmos. Mostly because those things have been PROVEN. I was merely using the big bang as an example. Perhaps I should've put "etc." on the end?

[Vendetta]

Actually, it doesn't state that the serpent was Satan in the beginning However if you check out Revelation 12:9 it does. "The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray....."
Did you read ALL of that chapter? Do you even KNOW what Revelations is all about? Seriously, the more you talk about this, the more apparent it is to me that you don't know your own book.

"Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

Revelations is a prophecy of the FUTURE, not a story of what happened in Eden. Also, in Rev 12:9, what we assume to be Satan is described as "an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads" not a snake.

And please read Genesis again. It was a snake, plain and simple, not the devil. Just because Satan takes the form (one of MANY, I'd point out) of a serpent/dragon doesn't mean that he was the snake there in Eden. In fact no where in the Bible does it say that Satan was the one that tempted Eve with the apple. And if you think it does, please provide chapter & verse.

I was merely using the big bang as an example. Perhaps I should've put "etc." on the end?
Uhhh, those things DO support the Big Bang. See it's not a belief, but a scientific theory with observable evidence to back it up.

[Rascaduanok]

And please read Genesis again …no where in the Bible does it say that Satan was the one that tempted Eve with the apple.

As an addendum to that, Genesis doesn’t mention an ‘apple’ either! :D

[Vendetta]

As an addendum to that, Genesis doesn’t mention an ‘apple’ either! :D
Fine, 'fruit'.

Which leads me to an interesting question: why an apple in most artistic interpretations of the story? I mean weren't there better fruits? What about a pomegranate, as that'd at least tie in the whole Hades & Persephone story.

[dwulf]

And exactly what is Eden anyway? Is it another realm or a location on earth. The bible wasn't too clear on that.

[john the baptist]

Apple is a very abundant fruit in the world. :shrug:

I always thought it would be fruit we've never seen before.

[Golden Howl]

Did you read ALL of that chapter? Do you even KNOW what Revelations is all about? Revelations is a prophecy of the FUTURE, not a story of what happened in Eden. Also, in Rev 12:9, what we assume to be Satan is described as "an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads" not a snake.
Yes, I know. Although Revelations is a prophecy of the future, it refers to the past in some areas. The seven headed dragon is the form Satan took in Revelations, however it constantly refers back to his older forms taken in the early days(In this case, the serpent). No, it doesn't say word for exact word the sentence you are searching for, but it is obvious. Here's another one,
"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years." ~Revelations 20:2

The verse I gave you before describes the snake through its actions & there is only one significant serpent that "leads the world astray" which would be the one in Genesis. It's not all in black & white, directly in your face. You have to focus, I mean come on, first off the snake is talking, & has evil motives against God & man. If this was merely an innocent snake, why would it rebel against its creator? Seriously, you just gotta plug it in.

[john the baptist]

Did you read ALL of that chapter? Do you even KNOW what Revelations is all about? Seriously, the more you talk about this, the more apparent it is to me that you don't know your own book.

Actually that was written to explain what happened with the Devil. It was a look back not a prophecy.

[dwulf]

Did Eve ever stop to think, "oh crap, a talking snake"? I guess all the animals could talk back then.

[Golden Howl]

Did Eve ever stop to think, "oh crap, a talking snake"? I guess all the animals could talk back then.

I guess not. She's not exactly the brightest crayon in the box, now is she? :p However I don't think all the animals could talk back then...they still can't.

[dwulf]

I guess not. She's not exactly the brightest crayon in the box, now is she? :p However I don't think all the animals could talk back then...they still can't.

:D

[Vendetta]

[FONT="Garamond"][SIZE="3"]
Yes, I know. Although Revelations is a prophecy of the future, it refers to the past in some areas. The seven headed dragon is the form Satan took in Revelations, however it constantly refers back to his older forms taken in the early days(In this case, the serpent). No, it doesn't say word for exact word the sentence you are searching for, but it is obvious. Here's another one,
"He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years." ~Revelations 20:2

The verse I gave you before describes the snake through its actions & there is only one significant serpent that "leads the world astray" which would be the one in Genesis. It's not all in black & white, directly in your face. You have to focus, I mean come on, first off the snake is talking, & has evil motives against God & man. If this was merely an innocent snake, why would it rebel against its creator? Seriously, you just gotta plug it in.
Reread Genesis please. It's a SNAKE. Also prior to the whole Serpent/Dragon/Devil fiasco, God made all the animals on earth. We can assume that the snake did NOT originally look as we know it now, because it wasn't until AFTER God found out what Adam and Eve had done that he cursed the snake to crawl on it's belly. Listen if you are going to make wild inferences on the Bible then the best assumption to make was that in fact Satan TOOK the form of the snake, because the snake was already a sneaky creature, and had done some stuff Satan thought was "cool".

Look, I'm just going by the terrible logic in YOUR book (which you need to read more carefully.) I'm pretty sure what you DON'T know about the Bible could just about fill the Grand Canyon. :rolleyes:

[Golden Howl]

Reread Genesis please. It's a SNAKE. Also prior to the whole Serpent/Dragon/Devil fiasco, God made all the animals on earth. We can assume that the snake did NOT originally look as we know it now, because it wasn't until AFTER God found out what Adam and Eve had done that he cursed the snake to crawl on it's belly. Listen if you are going to make wild inferences on the Bible then the best assumption to make was that in fact Satan TOOK the form of the snake, because the snake was already a sneaky creature, and had done some stuff Satan thought was "cool". Yeah, I know it was a snake. The snake was considered the craftiest of all the animals. Okay, I'm lost on what the debate is about because what you've just stated is what I've been attempting to inform you of this whole time.

[Vendetta]

Yeah, I know it was a snake. The snake was considered the craftiest of all the animals. Okay, I'm lost on what the debate is about because what you've just stated is what I've been attempting to inform you of this whole time.
Please don't try and backpedal and say you've been saying something that is patently UNTRUE. Being a snake and being Satan are two entirely different things. Or are you saying that Satan is EVERY snake? Also, please provide a timeline, with evidence, that supports Satan being around before God created Eden. Otherwise your argument makes no sense. And I've already pointed out to you why your suppositions about Rev 12:9 are incorrect. It, quite obviously takes place AFTER Genesis.

[Golden Howl]

Otherwise your argument makes no sense. Same goes for you.


And I've already pointed out to you why your suppositions about Rev 12:9 are incorrect. It, quite obviously takes place AFTER Genesis. Yes, Rev does take place after Genesis, but it is refering back to the past in that verse. It describes the ancient snake by its actions(" who leads the world astray...) & there is only one serpent whom leads the world astray, & that is the one who tempted Eve into eating the fruit. The world was on the right track when it was created, but then it was led astray...you know the story. I am not merely making this up, ask anyone who's seriously studied the Bible & they will claim that the serpent was Satan taking that animals' form for disguise. Period. I am not wasting anymore time with this.

[MorganaFang]

Same goes for you.

Yes, Rev does take place after Genesis, but it is refering back to the past in that verse. It describes the ancient snake by its actions(" who leads the world astray...) & there is only one serpent whom leads the world astray, & that is the one who tempted Eve into eating the fruit. The world was on the right track when it was created, but then it was led astray...you know the story. I am not merely making this up, ask anyone who's seriously studied the Bible & they will claim that the serpent was Satan taking that animals' form for disguise. Period. I am not wasting anymore time with this.

Could you please not bump up your font size. It is not necessary and communicates yelling.

Also anyone who seriously studies the bible would not give a definitive on whether the serpent is or is not satan. Especially because the bible never says for sure, we do not have anyone to talk to from that time to get the answer and the serpent was also symbolic of other things during that time.

It seems weird that you're taking the bible so literally when it comes to the actual happening of creation but when it comes the serpent aspect you rely on metaphor.

How can you know for certain what should be taken literally and what should be taken as allegory?

[Galliard]

Also, I would assume they use the "apple" as the "forbidden fruit" because the druids, among others, considered the fruit to enhance wisdom.

[Vendetta]

Yes, Rev does take place after Genesis, but [I]it is refering back to the past in that verse.
Thanks once again for proving you don't know WHAT THE HELL you are talkign about. Chapter 12 of revelations is generally accepted as the story of the birth of Jesus. I'm pretty sure the whole Eden story is supposed to have happened waaaay before Jesus was born.

But since you won't do the work yourself, I'll post it here for your edification:

Revelations Chapter 12 (NIV Bible)
1
A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
2
She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
3
Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.
4
His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.
5
She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
6
The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7
And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8
But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
(I'd post the whole thing, but it's just everyone going "hurray, we beat the dragon, God is awesome!" claptrap. That and more of the dragon chasing the woman on Earth.)

OK, so according to Revelations, the war in heaven, in which Satan is cast out happens during the birth of Jesus, NOT earlier. Unless of course this is completely wrong, in which case your Bible contradicts itself (not the first time) which makes it a pretty useless book, even as a work of fiction.

[LV426]

The Bible never states that the fruit from the forbidden tree was an apple.

Also maybe the snake was actually a legless lizard with legs and once god took them away it became a legless lizard.

[Galliard]

The Bible never states that the fruit from the forbidden tree was an apple.

Also maybe the snake was actually a legless lizard with legs and once god took them away it became a legless lizard.

I know that it doesn't state it in the Bible. I was simply saying that the apple was probably the first fruit that came to classical minds when talking about a fruit of Wisdom, or forbidden fruit, and that's why it appears in paintings and such.

[Vendetta]

Also maybe the snake was actually a legless lizard with legs and once god took them away it became a legless lizard.
Which is exactly my point. God never directly refers to it as anything OTHER than a regular animal. I mean you figure if it HAD been the devil he would been more like: "Oh Satan you old rascall, you really got me this time."

[MorganaFang]

I mean you figure if it HAD been the devil he would been more like: "Oh Satan you old rascall, you really got me this time."

Reminds me of a Dudley Moore movie

[greggchamberlain]

i know which one you mean.

i get a chuckle from that one. the later remake with Brendan Frazier and...was it Catherine Zeta-Jones as the Devil...was fun and sexy but not funny the way the original was...with the Devil doing all sorts of petty things in the way of temptations and such (like getting a pigeon to drop a load onto some toff's hat) to just sort of make life a bit more miserable for all concerned rather than entice people into committing magnificently monstrous sins.

[MorganaFang]

with the Devil doing all sorts of petty things in the way of temptations and such (like getting a pigeon to drop a load onto some toff's hat) to just sort of make life a bit more miserable for all concerned rather than entice people into committing magnificently monstrous sins.

Bedazzled with Peter Cook, that movie sticks to me because it was cool to actually have the relationship of God and the Devil more played out. I <3 it more the new one.

[greggchamberlain]

that's the title, yeah.

at the risk of seeming to take this thread off on a tangent...you ever seen that old movie from the 40s i think...title escapes...but i believe Walter Huston is in it as Daniel Webster...it's an adaptation of "The Devil and Daniel Webster" where the creator of Webster's Dictionary is called on to mount a legal defence of a New England farmer who foolishly sold his soul to the Devil.

[dwulf]

I thought the devil in Bedazzled was Elizabeth Hurley.

[animmortalwound]

I wouldn't Doubt that they are the same person.

[dwulf]

I wouldn't Doubt that they are the same person.

*rolls on the floor laught* Daaaamn. That's messed up.:D

[Vendetta]

I thought the devil in Bedazzled was Elizabeth Hurley.
It was a remake of an older film.

[greggchamberlain]

i hate to admit but, other than noting Brendan Frazier as the poor schmuck on the wrong end of a deal with the devil, the names of any one else in the remake pretty much escape my memory.

i remember better moore and cook in the original.

and that Ringo Starr "starred" in the film version of The Magic Christian.

[dwulf]

It was a remake of an older film.

Oh. :o Sorry.

[Destiny]

God.

God...This is going where I wish it wasn't isn't it?
But technically he didn't create the Devil, he created Lucifer. An angel. He gave angels the right to choose, just like he did with humans, and it was Lucifer who rebelled...and took a third of the angels with him.

In the end it might not go against his plan. No one knows for sure what'll happen...of course there is Revelations, but it describes way to many weird creatures for me to keep reading.

Well, I didn't mean that man possessed violence (though you might have), I meant they had a choice to act on it only, if desired.

I do think you have respect for people of faith. :)

And I apologize if I contradicted myself. Do forgive me. It was my warped opinion. Because by the time it actually is typed down, many of my opinions become vague...And that pretty much just wiped out what I said earlier in this post doesn't it? Oh well. I'm done anyway. The conversation has been enticing and reviting, but I must bid you ado, you can have the argument, go ahead, whatever. I'm to tired today to actually care. :)

[ThrasherCub]

But technically he didn't create the Devil, he created Lucifer. An angel. He gave angels the right to choose, just like he did with humans, and it was Lucifer who rebelled...and took a third of the angels with him.
Fail.

God created Lucifer. That requires he created all aspects of Lucifer, including his rebellious tendencies. God, being omniscient, knows what we conceive of as the future and therefore knew the result of creating him with those tendencies. In giving him rebellious tendencies while also knowing the results means he created that future; the future in which he is the Devil.

Ergo, God created the Devil.

[Destiny]

Fail yourself. God doesn't create tendencies for anything bad...or evil...or whatever you want to call it. Everything God created was perfect, and good at one point (Adam and Eve were too, before the temptation), it's just a matter of time before someone with a mind, will, and everything we have basically, runs into trouble, or is tempted. I mean little children are pretty good until they're tempted to do something wrong, right? Even adults are. Angels had their own thoughts, what happened with Lucifer wasn't a matter of God creating him with "tendencies" or anything of the like. But that is my opinion.

And I do agree with you about God knowing that Lucifer would probably end up as the Devil, though as I've said before the choices we make changes the future, so no course is fully plotted, theres only an absolute end. God was probably hoping Lucifer made a different choice. And then once the decision was made, the plan changed. So God does have a plan, but of course we don't see it. *Shrugs*

[dwulf]

If there is a god, I think it is the pantheistic god. You know, the universe itself. That is the only possible god that I can come up with. Sorry but christian/islamic/jewish god sounds like a malicious prick and I don't like him. Same goes for Zeus, Thor, and all those other "mythological" deities. Funny how they were "real" until monotheism popped up.

Oh, and for the record, Yahweh(I think that's how it's spelled) had no adversary until his worshipers stumbled upon the Zoroastrian religion and incorporated its believe of an all good single deity versus the personification of evil, or the Devil. Before that, demons were occasionally beneficial, although it was extremely rare.

[ThrasherCub]

Fail yourself. God doesn't create tendencies for anything bad...or evil...or whatever you want to call it.
Sorry, you're still the one who fails.

God created everything. Bad, evil, and the tendencies thereof are part of "everything."

Everything God created was perfect, and good at one point (Adam and Eve were too, before the temptation), it's just a matter of time before someone with a mind, will, and everything we have basically, runs into trouble, or is tempted.
Trouble and temptation are part of everything, therefore God created those too.

And I do agree with you about God knowing that Lucifer would probably end up as the Devil, though as I've said before the choices we make changes the future, so no course is fully plotted, theres only an absolute end.
Then God does not know everything and is therefore not all powerful.


Stop butchering your own beliefs!

[Destiny]

I give up. I'm not trying to butcher them...Seriously...I 'm just not good at explaining my opinions so that I make a good argument...I'm just so addicted to these discussions. ThrasherClub go ahead, you win....whatever.:)

[ThrasherCub]

Well hey, you yourself are the one who said he created Lucifer, and all I did was then outline what "creating" entails.

[Destiny]

Very true...I still just don't see it that way though...I just can't put words around what I'm thinking though...You are all very talented...No seriously. I'm jealous. :)

[dwulf]

I'm not talented. I use other people's findings to back up my own thoughts, that's all.

[Destiny]

...I'm not good at quoting the bible...and though I'm usually good at research I rather lose the argument than go searching for some facts. *Shrugs* People shall have their opinion and I mine...Which I should seriously stop saying...It's even starting to annoy me. :)

[dwulf]

*Hugs Tightly*Don't worry Des. We still love you babe.;)

[Galliard]

*Disclaimer: this is not what I believe.*

There is the argument that God created the Devil as he was and is, so that humans would be "compelled" to do what his glorious plans "whatever they may be" could be fulfilled."

*My thoughts*

In order to have perfection, you need imperfection; day and night, light and dark, you need opposites to attract one another. Otherwise, there really wouldn't be existence Ergo, the best "perfection" that can be achieved is one of complete balance, and to be able to be "everything", you need to be both light and dark, "good", and "bad", to the fullest extent. The only way, in my mind, to have a perfect God, is to have a balanced God.

Therefore, God creating the Devil, as it is in the Christian mythology, is God creating its counterpoint to what the people believed, thereby ensuring that balance is maintained. It is, however, purely symbolic, as prior to, the universe still had to maintain equilibrium.

However, Christianity says that their God is "Good." Well, I would like to redirect to the thread about "absolute good vs. Evil." And add to the fact that "God's" goodness may not be what humans perceive to be "good."


P.S., I hold beliefs similar to what I have described in the second and third paragraphs as "truth", but I don't consider "God" to be It of the Christian religion.

[Destiny]

Interesting....I agree on parts of this. :) It explains things nicely. And it makes more sense now what Thrasher was saying about God must have created Evil too. Though it seems your perspective I understand more....anyway. No more I swear.

[dwulf]

*Disclaimer: this is not what I believe.*

There is the argument that God created the Devil as he was and is, so that humans would be "compelled" to do what his glorious plans "whatever they may be" could be fulfilled."

*My thoughts*

In order to have perfection, you need imperfection; day and night, light and dark, you need opposites to attract one another. Otherwise, there really wouldn't be existence Ergo, the best "perfection" that can be achieved is one of complete balance, and to be able to be "everything", you need to be both light and dark, "good", and "bad", to the fullest extent. The only way, in my mind, to have a perfect God, is to have a balanced God.

Therefore, God creating the Devil, as it is in the Christian mythology, is God creating its counterpoint to what the people believed, thereby ensuring that balance is maintained. It is, however, purely symbolic, as prior to, the universe still had to maintain equilibrium.

However, Christianity says that their God is "Good." Well, I would like to redirect to the thread about "absolute good vs. Evil." And add to the fact that "God's" goodness may not be what humans perceive to be "good."


P.S., I hold beliefs similar to what I have described in the second and third paragraphs as "truth", but I don't consider "God" to be It of the Christian religion.

You make a good solid argument my friend. You officially kick ass.

[Petrone]

Fail.

God created Lucifer. That requires he created all aspects of Lucifer, including his rebellious tendencies. God, being omniscient, knows what we conceive of as the future and therefore knew the result of creating him with those tendencies. In giving him rebellious tendencies while also knowing the results means he created that future; the future in which he is the Devil.

Ergo, God created the Devil.

Lucifer rebelled against God when God chose to give humans a soul instead of Angels. However, it appears free-will is not dependent on a soul in this case, because of Lucifer's rebellion and the ensuing War in Heaven. (see? Even God has religious wars!)

p.s. The literal meaning of 'Lucifer' is 'Bringer of Light.' Not bad for the master of evil.

[DarkHunter]

*sigh*

The story of "Lucifer" rebelling is more or less a theological afterthought. The Catholics invented the story, based on misunderstood verses (found in Isaiah and Ezekial respectively, both directed at earthly kings and in no real way indicating anything else). So debating the whole idea isn't even a biblical debate really.

If you want to talk Bible, The Devil is not really a "counterpoint." The Devil simply seems to fulfill the role he's had since Job: that is to test us. To throw us some boils, a little plague every now and then, just to make sure we're not really lying.

It should be noted that originally when the doctrine of Hell first took shape, Christians believed it was administered by God's own ANGELS not demons or devils. ANGELS under God's command administered punishment.

In the Old Testament, God explicitly states that he is the author of all, good and evil, light and darkness. For whatever reasons (probably just as Galliard said).

[Destiny]

Since I decided to just sit back and read these posts, I've loved the latter explainations...Seri ously I feel as if I'm learning something...I had realized I might not have been right earlier...especially since the only recent text in the Bible I've actually read was the Revelations book, which started creeping me out so I stopped. I mean an animal with seven or whatever eyeballs?! Ewww. But anywho...:) I guess the only reason I was fighting the whole God created Evil and Good thing was because I couldn't remember, and like usual, thought I knew everything...which I should try and work on, believe it or not I don't like being considered a know-it all, especially when I don't know it all. *shrugs* So this is all eye opening really. And now I know things I didn't know before...so thanks. :D But I'm still my skeptical self and will probably take everything with a grain of salt and figure it out on my own.

[archenemyfan]

But after serious consideration, why wouldn't it be possible? Maybe God and the Devil are the same entity, if they/it exist(s) at all.

Before I begin, I just saw this thread and had something to say...

First, my friends had said that the Jews had killed Jesus, but that doesn't even sound right. So, I didn't believe them. But what dwulf was saying did make some sense. I mean, if they weren't save, who will save them? The Devil? God?
But I see what he's talking about...And if there was a God, where did all the stories and the Bible come from? What about the descriptions of Hell?
I think that there is a God and a Devil, but we all know the story of the Devil being banished to the Underworld.

Me....I don't know if they're the same guy. It's possible.

PS-I'm not reading 10 pages of arguments.

[Destiny]

The Jews killed Jesus? I thought a big crowd of people in general were the ones who had the final say...though there was that guy who gave the option to that guy...I wish I was good at remembering these things..I just get so confused...As my last few posts can point out easily.

[archenemyfan]

I didn't say that I believed it. But there's so much to religion that my brain can't remember everything. And I'd hate to be a religious nut like Carrie's mother in Stephen King's "Carrie."

[Destiny]

I wasn't saying you believed it. :) I was just wondering...because again, I can't remember. *Shrugs* I'm not good at the whole memory thing. :)

[LV426]

Special message from Mr. Pickle and God.

http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_ id=31982

[DarkHunter]

I didn't say that I believed it. But there's so much to religion that my brain can't remember everything. And I'd hate to be a religious nut like Carrie's mother in Stephen King's "Carrie."

My spoon is too big....my spoon is too big....my spoon is too big.

And can you guess whats bleeding?

But on a serious note: The Romans killed Jesus. The Sanhedrin (sp?) didn't have the authority to execute people though old Pilate may have cooperated with them to a certain extent in order to keep the peace.

The Jews were violent people after all.

[greggchamberlain]

The Jews were violent people after all.

who isn't when it comes right down to it?

and for further clarification...

Judaea was part of Rome's occupied territories along the eastern borders of the empire.

"occupied territories" because the locals were not totally pacified as were the Gauls...Gallo-Romans could achieve citizenship depending on circumstances...i do not believe any of the Hebrews were able to claim Roman citizenship with all the privileges that entailed (though there is that story in the Acts about a couple of the early disciples using a claim of citizenship to get their case transferred to Rome for judging).

so the Sanhedrin, while allowed to deal with most matters, were not allowed to apply death sentences in anything except the standard religious matters as allowed for under The Law.

the case of Jesus, if he were tried as a heretic would result in martyrdom if the Sanhedrin tried to sentence him to death under the Law...a situation the Sanhedrin wanted to avoid...given his popularity with the mob and his identification with some of the other local rebel movements like the Zealots.

so pass him over to Rome, through Governor Pilate, and have him tried under Roman law as rebel, seditionist, and traitor and thus executed.

Pilate, being a cagey politician, passed the case over to Herod, based on Christ's nationality and his birthplace.

Herod passed the ball back to Pilate, being an equally cagy politician, not wanting to create any unnecessary ill-will among his people toward him than already existed.

Pilate then used a Roman "courtesy" to get the mob (infiltrated by the Sanhedrin's own agents) to choose Jesus over Barabbas, a noted thief and murderer, for execution by crucifixion with Barabbas going free as was the custom for that day.

and so it all goes.

[Galliard]

Special message from Mr. Pickle and God.

http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_ id=31982

Wow...my brain fried a bit on that one...

[LV426]

Wow...my brain fried a bit on that one...

So did the pickle.

[BoxedCat]

Before I begin, I just saw this thread and had something to say...

First, my friends had said that the Jews had killed Jesus, but that doesn't even sound right.

No, it's right, the Pharisees had a major bone to pick and took it to the Roman Empire. They happened to agree, no witness stepping forth and whatnot.

So, I didn't believe them.

Well, that explains quite a bit.

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4172/edumactionbb3.jpg

And if there was a God, where did all the stories and the Bible come from? What about the descriptions of Hell?

Not a fan of either Judeo-Christian or world mythology, are you then? I would start with the Greeks and Romans, those are some honestly good stories, then move on to the Scandinavians. Slightly outlandish, but damn good reading. Then try the Quran, just for a bit of perspective, which you'll absolutely need when you hit the Bible. In all, it's the same story, told from various points of view (at least in the latter two cases), but it all leads to the same thing....which Hell do you prefer?

And in that vein, which Heaven?

I think that there is a God and a Devil, but we all know the story of the Devil being banished to the Underworld.

Do we? Do tell, just for the sake of it.

Me....I don't know if they're the same guy. It's possible.

PS-I'm not reading 10 pages of arguments.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2647/pluriuminterrogation umxce8.jpg


I didn't say that I believed it. But there's so much to religion that my brain can't remember everything. And I'd hate to be a religious nut like Carrie's mother in Stephen King's "Carrie."

Like being a religious nut about werewolves?

You put your dirty pillows away, you heathen.

[archenemyfan]

Not a fan of either Judeo-Christian or world mythology, are you then? I would start with the Greeks and Romans, those are some honestly good stories, then move on to the Scandinavians. Slightly outlandish, but damn good reading. Then try the Quran, just for a bit of perspective, which you'll absolutely need when you hit the Bible. In all, it's the same story, told from various points of view (at least in the latter two cases), but it all leads to the same thing....which Hell do you prefer?

And in that vein, which Heaven?

I'm not a fan, and I don't really care about religion. It's just something that people believe in, that's what religion is to me. I'll read the stuff you mentioned, but I'll probably get bored of it quickly, and I might not even hit the Bible, because I don't read it.
I'd rather prefer something that's real than something that's not.

Do we? Do tell, just for the sake of it.

Hah, you'd probably make a mochary out of me. But because you push and push, here is what I heard...
Lucifer was a high angel or something in Heaven, with God, but when he betrayed God, he was banished. And now they fight between good and evil or something like that. I heard it off TV one day, and I didn't pay attention to it really.


Like being a religious nut about werewolves?

You put your dirty pillows away, you heathen.

Do I believe in werewolves? YES
Do I believe that werewolves have religion? NO
Do I believe that something always proves us? YES and it's not Man.

[Vendetta]

I'd rather prefer something that's real than something that's not.
'Rather prefer', do you guys never review what you type? So you NEVER read fictional books? Wow, I'd expect you to be smarter than you are

I heard it off TV one day, and I didn't pay attention to it really.
Ohhh, OK. So that explains it. You just watch TV, and even then not really.

Do I believe that something always proves us? YES and it's not Man.
Proves us? Really?! Proves us what?!?

Shine on you crazy bastion of short-attention spans and poor education systems.

[archenemyfan]

'Rather prefer', do you guys never review what you type? So you NEVER read fictional books? Wow, I'd expect you to be smarter than you are


Ohhh, OK. So that explains it. You just watch TV, and even then not really.


Proves us? Really?! Proves us what?!?

Shine on you crazy bastion of short-attention spans and poor education systems.

You're off topic, and if you want my answers, copy this your quote, and PM me.


Is God and the Devil the same guy?

[Pickle Tickler]

You're off topic, and if you want my answers, copy this your quote, and PM me.


Is God and the Devil the same guy?

No, he's not. He's trying to prove a religious point to you, at the same time revealing your ultimate hypocrisy. Mostly the hypocrisy part, but this isn't off topic (though it will inevitably end up there if you go ranting to animalsliveforev so she can protect you again).

I'm not a fan, and I don't really care about religion. It's just something that people believe in, that's what religion is to me. I'll read the stuff you mentioned, but I'll probably get bored of it quickly, and I might not even hit the Bible, because I don't read it.
I'd rather prefer something that's real than something that's not.

So you're not even going to try reading something that might change your life or your perspective because it's boring? Give me a better reason than that, because in all honesty, what are you doing with your life at the moment? I mean hell Archy, it's probably not just boring to you, but people slug away at it anyway, for the sake of knowledge and wisdom. If you didn't have those two things, you probably would be lacking a lot of fun things in life that you enjoy and appreciate.

Do you realize how fucked up that last statement sounds coming from you? Werewolves are hypothetical, Archy. Unless you can tell me straight to my face that you have seen irrevocable evidence of a werecreature of any kind and then show me that evidence, I have no reason to believe you. The Bible at least, is a physical documentation of true events in the past, so it has some credibility (note that I did not say it is infallible).

[dwulf]

Offtopic: Archy. If you are implying that you are a true werewolf, then please reveal to us how the mechanics of you transformation works.

On Topic: I have come to the conclusion that God and the Devil are definitely not the same guy. The Devil is just like the angels and humans. In fact, according to the bible, he works for God. Thus, God is the real bad guy. He's the one who is up to no good in the bible. Where did people get the idea that the devil was the destroyer, I'm not too sure.

I do know that all of the blame that is now on the Devil and the demons, was once attributed to God and the angels. Abbadon, Samael, and some other names attributed to Satan where all angelic names at one time.

[Destiny]

"Where did people get the idea that the devil was the destroyer, I'm not too sure." Seriously? I think it was mentioned in the Bible actually.

[dwulf]

Yeah, seriously. Of coarse the bible "says" that he is the destroyer but I don't recall him doing any destruction that WASN'T authorized by God.

[Destiny]

What do you mean by authorized exactly? As in gave a go ahead, or just sat back and waited for the inevitable?

[dwulf]

As in gave the go ahead.

[Destiny]

Oh...Okay. I wasn't aware that God gave go aheads to the devil to destroy things...But okay..I was just confused as to what you meant exactly...Thanks. :)

[dwulf]

My Christian buddy told me that the devil desires to destroy man, but must seek out permission from God. God gives him the go ahead believing that man will still stay in faith. But in the bible, it never says such a thing. God and man does the destroying. The devil never does anything destructive directly.

[Destiny]

I wouldn't think he gave the go ahead for the devil to destroy...or for that matter give the go ahead for the devil to do anything harmful to humans, but I can agree that he might not stand in the way of the devil tempting humans in order to prove that man will keep his faith or might keep his faith that is.(I do think God believes that men/women in the face of temptation keep faith and do the right thing.). But I don't believe God destroys unless something is going against Him (not His ultimate plan). How do you figure he doesn't do anything destructive directly? Since I don't have any references near me could you explain?

[Rascaduanok]

"Where did people get the idea that the devil was the destroyer, I'm not too sure." Seriously? I think it was mentioned in the Bible actually.

Well, the Hebrew word for satan used in the original Bible simply means ‘adversary’.

[dwulf]

I don't know the bible in and out but I've never come across a single verse in it that mentions Satan directly offing someone. God offed entire towns. Tell me, would you off a whole damn city just because they didn't agree with everything you say. Your God would.

Another thing. Nowadays, people off a guy and say,"God said so," we either say that he's a nutcase or a liar. Some would go ahead to say,"God wouldn't tell you to kill someone." Um. Yes he would. He's done it a shitload of times. Just read the fucking bible. Does this mean that all the biblical characters and authors were crazy liars too?

.

[Petrone]

God and the devil and all the angels and demons and minions and whatnot are all the same guy, or at least the same concept; figments of someone else's imagination. Or, another way for people to palm off responsibility for their own actions against others.

[Destiny]

I was thinking on this sometime this week and realized, why on earth would the devil care if God was giving a "go ahead"? I mean he's the devil. He rebelled once, why would he wait around for orders? Though some people probably believe that he waits around for orders because he might never have rebelled. But I was just wondering, what would motivate him to listen to God, or care about the "go aheads" God gives, if he clearly (at least it is to me) doesn't like God, doesn't care, and didn't take orders from him then?

Oh and thanks about telling me the Hebrew meaning, it makes more sense on how people can believe it now. :)

[dwulf]

I was thinking on this sometime this week and realized, why on earth would the devil care if God was giving a "go ahead"? I mean he's the devil. He rebelled once, why would he wait around for orders? Though some people probably believe that he waits around for orders because he might never have rebelled. But I was just wondering, what would motivate him to listen to God, or care about the "go aheads" God gives, if he clearly (at least it is to me) doesn't like God, doesn't care, and didn't take orders from him then?

Oh and thanks about telling me the Hebrew meaning, it makes more sense on how people can believe it now. :)

I never said so. The damn bible did. Read it again.

[Petrone]

If the devil was outside God's control, then God would not be omnipotent, and if God could not predict what would happen when the Devil is involved, that means He would not be omniscient. The idea that God is not infallible is anathema to any abrahamic religion. But if God lets evil into the World, and has control of such evil, then He is not Love or Light, but has aspects of evil which contradict His claimed fundamental nature. Thus we have the doublethink situation here. No matter which way you go, it just doesn't make sense.

[spirit]

That's why many people doubt the bible is because it makes litttle sense and often contradicts itself.