Missing The Point On Knives

[blueeyes]

From BBC's United Kingdom (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7508404.stm) reporting :

The point of knives
Most fatal stabbings involve a weapon that is easy to obtain and sharp with it - a kitchen knife. Would stopping the sale of long blades with sharp points help save lives?

What would reduce the number of fatal stabbings? England and Wales' Chief Inspector of Probation Andrew Bridges has warned against "spectacular innovations" and wants the debate to focus on "mundane truths".

One idea, first proposed in 2005, is a response to a grisly mundane truth expressed by Met chief Ian Blair this week - that "the most common knife involved in these deaths is a knife from a kitchen".

The proposal came from three emergency medicine specialists, and it's a simple one: getting rid of the points on the ends of longer kitchen knives.

Drs Emma Hern, Will Glazebrook and Mike Beckett wrote an editorial in the British Medical Journal, suggesting that since "many assaults are impulsive", government action could "drastically reduce the availability" of a "potentially lethal weapon".

So what would the effect have been if, in 2003, the government had persuaded knife manufacturers to offer a greater range of styles, with the pointed-end, long-blade design no longer the default?

Dr Beckett puts it simply: if long pointed knives had become less available, we would have seen fewer deaths from knife injuries.

...

It's nowhere near a complete solution to the complex problem of knife crime - but neither is it meant to be. Why people carry knives and how they are prosecuted remain different questions.

Rather, says Dr Beckett, it's a possibility for design to help save lives.

"Car manufacturers constantly refine their product to make them less likely to cause harm. Razor blades have been redesigned so as not to slit your throat.

"Kitchen knives could be redesigned so that they retain their cooking function, but are not lethal. But as it stands, you can go into a supermarket and buy for £10 something that's a murder weapon - no questions asked."

[ThrasherCub]

This article makes me want to stab people to death with screwdrivers.

[MorganaFang]

Y'know I wonder how they would refunction them? I mean butter knives are shit for cutting anything already but enough force makes them pretty dangerous. I had a friend whose hand muscle were pretty much ripped from her wrist when she tried to open a can of paint with one.

Yeesh with enough will anything can be dangerous really.

[Sazabi]

You can make a deadly stabbing device in the most locked-down prison out of plastic utensils. The UK's bullshit nanny-stating is seriously getting ridiculous.

[Petrone]

Ban all knives! Then we can bash each other with toasters! Heap big fun!

[greggchamberlain]

they planning to dull the knife edge too along with removing the point?

gonna mean always ordering steak either blood-red raw or very well-done to the point the meat just sort of melts away.

[Cosine]

On the upswing, the number of murders conducted with power drills would shoot up.

[greggchamberlain]

yeah, then the construction industry and do-it-yourselfers start grumbling about how hard it is to get replacement drill bits when they need them.

[Petrone]

You could always sharpen the edges of a shovel. That works particularly well, though it's messy, so you'd need plastic sheeting-

I mean, so I heard. From, uh,... someone.

[Cheater388]

With the same pointed knives that murders use to kill someone, I can easily chop off my finder with the sharp side of the blade.

The government over there is just making a wild goose chase for themselves, like Sazabi said. And no, murders will not decrease just because something becomes less common, like everybody here says. There was one person that commented on gun control, saying that people kill people as opposed to guns. Yes, people kill other people! Isn't that rare in this age, people killing other people?

This looks like another sign of the community putting blame on something else, thereby inconveniencing the people who use that other thing. I think that governments should stop using their powers to deter criminals, because it only helps the criminals. There needs to be a better police force out there, because those people are hired women and men that are trained to stop violence.

[Gilenea]

Do does talking someone into committing suicide mean I can't have a brain?

Gil

[Cheater388]

Do does talking someone into committing suicide mean I can't have a brain?

Gil

Now I've just melted my brain what did you just say?

[ThrasherCub]

Is anyone else pleased by the fact that removing the stabby part of knives has caused us to contemplate the homicidal use of screwdrivers, butter knives, plastic utensils, toasters, power drills, shovels, and Gil's brain?

We're more fucked up than a coked out Yeti.

[chriz]

Is anyone else pleased by the fact that removing the stabby part of knives has caused us to contemplate the homicidal use of screwdrivers, butter knives, plastic utensils, toasters, power drills, shovels, and Gil's brain?

Yes.

[LV426]

I believe in jail they sharpen the end of the plastic toothbrushes. Then there are the meat forks, ice picks, hoes, rakes, shovels, tomato stake, pitchforks, and soccer cleats that can be used to wage war on the unsuspecting huma.. er zombie hordes.

[Petrone]

This looks like another sign of the community putting blame on something else, thereby inconveniencing the people who use that other thing. I think that governments should stop using their powers to deter criminals, because it only helps the criminals. There needs to be a better police force out there, because those people are hired women and men that are trained to stop violence.

We had a gun buy-back scheme after the Port Arthur Massacre, in which many firearms were placed under a ban order, and legitimate, licensed owners and users were 'encouraged' to hand their weapons in to government departments, and given a government payback for doing so (usually a lot less than the guns were worth, but that's the government for you, especially that insipid communist pseudo-fascist Liberal regime which ruled here for a while). Those weapons were then destroyed in a 'symbolic' gesture, to be recycled as toasters, knives, etc.

Only problem was, the dishonest owners of unlicensed guns didn't hand their weapons in. Now we have a thriving black-market of illegal weapons, usually through outlaw bikie gangs, and honest citizens are not allowed to own most firearms that are made. Latest law; auto or revolver handguns are limited to .40 calibre, which means my old .45 Colt is now illegal. Only reason I still am allowed to have it is because I'm a registered club member, and I have to keep the gun in one combo safe, dismantled, and ammo in another combo safe.

Long live freedom!

[Ves]

I think a little background info is required here.

In the UK this year (and last year for that matter) we've apparently seen a rise in the number of fatal stabbings, although violent crime is apparently down.
The majority of these stabbings have unfortunately been in the Greater London area which makes it feel like the problem is even bigger for those of us in that area because it seems like it's forever being reported in the local press and it's places we know.
Add to the mix that most (not quite all) of the victims have been teenagers, and suddenly the whole thing starts to build into hysteria.
The kids are now in danger of forming into two camps, one that thinks it's cool to carry a knife with them, and the other that is responding to the hysteria and feels they have to tool up for their own safety.
There have even been stories of primary school kids (that's up to 11 years of age) being sent to school in stab vests!

So at times like these where the fear of crime is actually far outweighing the actual rate of crime, people naturally look to their leaders and the police force.
Unfortunately our police have become a bit of a joke to most of the kids that are actually doing these crimes. They've become ultra-efficient at shooting innocent Brazilians and arresting innocent muslims (having shot one of them of course) but they just can't seem to command any authority where it really matters. They are, however, very good at watching CCTV which is a huge help when you're being attacked by a hoodie with a knife.
So instead we must look to our leaders and Gordon "worse than his predecessor" Brown. They're busy trying to convince these kids that they will be caught, tried, and punished. The kids in turn are saying "who by? you?".

The result is that any potential helpful idea is being considered. I've heard of marvellous plans involving issuing body armour to civilians (we can't even manage to do that properly for our army); bringing back national service but making all school-leavers do community service rather than stick them in the army; and my favourite - an automatic 5 year prison sentence for anyone carrying a knife without a reason ('cause our prisons aren't full enough already).
In actual fact the blunting the points of knives idea, which incidentally is more rounding the tips off so you can't stab with them, will probably help a little. Remember these aren't pre-meditated murders just violence spiralling out of control because weapons are present - and there ain't much cool about carrying a sharpened toothbrush. Obviously it won't stop the problem completely, but it may help a little bit.
Many of the people that have been arrested for these crimes seem unable to spell their own names, let alone have the wit to come up with a cunning alternative - though I think we will indeed see a rise in screwdriver sales.
It would probably also help if the owners of hardware stores would stop selling kitchen knives to kids. I saw this thing on TV recently where they sent a kid into 10 shops to see how many would sell her knives and only a couple challenged her - and she didn't look old for her age.

So yeah it is a bit of an outlandish idea, but it is in response to a real problem which I think the powers that be in this country have no real clue how to solve.

[blueeyes]

In the UK this year (and last year for that matter) we've apparently seen a rise in the number of fatal stabbings, although violent crime is apparently down.

According to the Home Office statistics, violent crime increased 5% from the Sep2005/Sep2006 periods to the Sep2006/Sep2007. All crime increased by 3%. There's no official data for the 2007/2008 period, yet, but intermediate data suggest that there's no change in the trend so far, despite the ever-important samurai sword ban. The closest is the BCS for 2007/2008, which is suggesting a drop, but it's still a bit incomplete and has been criticized as changing its metrics.

So at times like these where the fear of crime is actually far outweighing the actual rate of crime, people naturally look to their leaders and the police force.
The risk of being a victim of crime, as defined by the BCS's survey for the Sep2006/Sep2007 period, was roughly 24%. While this is obviously not an egalitarian rate, and nowhere near as high as the 1995 value of 40%, it's still a pretty non-trivial value.

Remember these aren't pre-meditated murders just violence spiralling out of control because weapons are present - and there ain't much cool about carrying a sharpened toothbrush. Obviously it won't stop the problem completely, but it may help a little bit.
Speaking from previous examples, I expect that to be an less than productive (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm) solution.

I've made knives in my own backyard -- you can build a fairly advanced forge with a propane tank, cinder blocks, and the correct tubing, while basic forges are nothing more than charcoal grills.

I saw this thing on TV recently where they sent a kid into 10 shops to see how many would sell her knives and only a couple challenged her - and she didn't look old for her age.

You can even buy them online! (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Master-Class-Piece-Knife-Hachoir/dp/B000FU8FPM/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=kitchen&qid=1216390502&sr=8-7http://www.amazon.com/Ginsu-International-Traditions-14-Piece-Stainless-Steel/dp/B0006TJ7I6/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=U TF8&s=home-garden&qid=1216389347&sr=8-3) Damn those merchants of death!

Yes, I understand that the laws of the United Kingdom prohibit the sale of knives, knife blades, and some types of razor blades to those under the age of 16. I hope you understand precisely how ridiculous that sounds to foreigners.

So yeah it is a bit of an outlandish idea, but it is in response to a real problem which I think the powers that be in this country have no real clue how to solve.

I realize they may seem obscure, fanciful, or plain crazy to you enlightened EUroers, but I might argue that tossing people who carry knives into jail for longer than you've tossed murderers into jail might not be a real solution. It might not even be anything remotely like a real response.

[Tux]

What about meat cleavers? Sure you can’t stab anyone with them, but if you swung it at them I’d be willing to bet you’d bury it a good way into them. Oh, and spoons, you could gouge someone’s eyes out with them, wait you could do that with a long thumb nail too. Oh to hell with it, but start removing everyone’s hands, feet, and teeth from birth. Also might want to start doing mandatory lobotomies just to be sure.

There, I just solved the world’s violence problems, do I get a reward now? :p

[DarkWolf]

The real solution: Ban life. Problem solved.

[ThrasherCub]

The real solution: Ban life. Problem solved.

I love you madly.

Can someone tell me why people think banning things will keep us from killing each other rather than just making us kill each other with more variety of weapon?

[greggchamberlain]

I believe in jail they sharpen the end of the plastic toothbrushes. Then there are the meat forks, ice picks, hoes, rakes, shovels, tomato stake, pitchforks, and soccer cleats that can be used to wage war on the unsuspecting huma.. er zombie hordes.

been watching another zombie movie marathon, have we?

:D

[Hitodama]

But they haven't even touched the issue of blunt objects! Yes, yes, the typical murderer that attacks at close range prefers a pointy object, but still, will the banning of knives curb the violent assaults of meat tenderizing hammer wielding psychopaths? I think not.

Also, a few people have stated that the banning of knives would drive people to use other tools as weapons, hell, any tool can be used as a weapon; take a normal home use printer, if it's thrown hard enough, bam! Instant DFO (Deadly Flying Object), and if it's the "Raging-at-the-moment" murders that they're trying to stop, why not promote counseling services and family/group therapy instead of screwing over countless chefs/cooks/infomercial stars.

The UK's heart is in the right place, but their heads seem to be up their asses.

[Lysander]

The UK's heart is in the right place, but their heads seem to be up their asses.

And therein lies the problem. Governments love to pass laws that make people feel good or feel safer but end up having unintended consequences.

Have you seen the knife that injects compressed CO2 into the person when they stab them, which then freezes the adjacent organs, expands to the size of a basketball, and kills them.

[ThrasherCub]

Have you seen the knife that injects compressed CO2 into the person when they stab them, which then freezes the adjacent organs, expands to the size of a basketball, and kills them.

No, but now I want desperately to own one. I would compulsively stab uncooked roasts.

[Lysander]

No, but now I want desperately to own one. I would compulsively stab uncooked roasts.

Or Watermelons. Enter the WASP Knife...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa_NC-_fvKs

[LV426]

I can see no point to that injection knife. It is a superbly cruel mind that would create such a weapon.

[Vendetta]

I can see no point to that injection knife. It is a superbly cruel mind that would create such a weapon.
When death by stab wounds isn't enough.

[ThrasherCub]

I can see no point to that injection knife.
Stabbing melons and uncooked roasts.

[blueeyes]

I can see no point to that injection knife. It is a superbly cruel mind that would create such a weapon.

I have been taught that, when you need to kill, killing quickly is more important than killing cleanly. Stabbing something a couple times and then leaving it to eventually bleed to death over days seems more cruel to me than that particular knife and killing within seconds.

Is that not accurate?

For hundreds of dollars, I think a gun would be more effective, but at least until the bans come in, this knife may be a viable option when a firearm would not be.

[Galliard]

It was a superbly cruel mind that invented modern biological warfare, and modern nuclear warfare. Stabbing someone still just kills one person (unless you go on a stabbing spree; even then, it's easier to take you out with a gun).

[LV426]

Stabbing melons and uncooked roasts.

Actually they have targeted this towards divers to use on sharks as protection.

I have been taught that, when you need to kill, killing quickly is more important than killing cleanly. Stabbing something a couple times and then leaving it to eventually bleed to death over days seems more cruel to me than that particular knife and killing within seconds.

Is that not accurate?

For hundreds of dollars, I think a gun would be more effective, but at least until the bans come in, this knife may be a viable option when a firearm would not be.
I don't see many people out there hunting with knives. Knives are tools which can be used as weapons but are not generally designed to be strictly weapons. I rarely see hunters out there with knives in hand to stab the unsuspecting deer and rabbits. There is also a question of whether this really kills immediately. I'm not sure that it would necessarily do so. The injection of air may explode flesh and organs but depending on the site of the wound you may just be in for a prolonged and agonizing death.


It was a superbly cruel mind that invented modern biological warfare, and modern nuclear warfare. Stabbing someone still just kills one person (unless you go on a stabbing spree; even then, it's easier to take you out with a gun).


Biological weapons were usually not created with weaponry in mind. Generally someone discovered a property of something and someone decided that would be a good military usage of the idea. Also, men in labs rarely see the consequences of their weapons as they are used in combat and they aren't personally designing something to kill someone. They aren't being cruel, they are "working for the greater good". Stabbing someone is personal. Looking into their face or holding them in your arms to subdue them while you stab them is personal. Being face to face and taking a life is personal. The cruelty factor is involved in the methods used when taking a life face to face.

[Galliard]

By the same token, in my eyes, if I had to die a violent death, or be attacked with that in mind, I would rather be stabbed and at least know who did it. With radiation poisoning, that could take months or years to die, depending, or virulent plagues that were created by someone, and takes out everyone. I'll never be able to identify those people, but, if I somehow survive being attacked/stabbed, I'd be able to go after them.

[blueeyes]

I don't see many people out there hunting with knives. Knives are tools which can be used as weapons but are not generally designed to be strictly weapons. I rarely see hunters out there with knives in hand to stab the unsuspecting deer and rabbits.

I don't see many individuals going out with just a knife or knives, but purely knife hunting does happen, even in otherwise normal humans. That said, anyone going hunting for the purpose of getting meat or skins is going to have a knife or three on them; you can't really clean an animal without one, and it's easier with multiple specialized blades.

Crossbow, conventional bow, and muzzle-loader hunting is fairly popular. One limitation of these tools is that they can not fire repeatedly at any sort of speed. Bows might only get an arrow every few seconds, while reloading a crossbow or muzzle loader can take ten seconds or longer.

Especially since muzzleloader season and bow seasons tend to occur early enough to take place while bucks are fighting over does (which sounds like a bad plan to me), having a powerful backup weapon might be worthwhile.

There is also a question of whether this really kills immediately. I'm not sure that it would necessarily do so. The injection of air may explode flesh and organs but depending on the site of the wound you may just be in for a prolonged and agonizing death.

It's hard to predict what a given type of wound is going to do, especially without having knowledge of what it'll do in a flesh-like medium. Propagation in watermelon is certainly nothing like muscle. You'd almost certainly need to hit near the throat, brain, spinal cord, or central nervous system to kill immediately.

That said, it seems like it would be more effective at getting a kill quickly than trying the same thing with a normal knife. It's not that unusual to have an animal run off if you get a decent stab or bullet in, and while that'll almost always kill an animal eventually, it won't do so quickly. There aren't many places you can hit an animal with that without disrupting internal organs, musculature, or bone that the animal can't run and find someplace to slowly die.

:shrug:

[chriz]

Actually they have targeted this towards divers to use on sharks as protection.

Or maybe defense against this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_moia-oVI)

[Petrone]

Just an aside about the whole law+order thing, I was under the impression that the UK installed several hundred thousand surveillance cameras in every part of Greater London, and is proceeding with several million more, in every part of England, specifically to help prevent crime and terrorism? Or should you ask for your money back?

[blueeyes]

I've seen a number of the camera systems currently on the market, and gotten information about a number of others. While it's possible that the United Kingdom has access to better technology than major cities in the United States, there are some significant limitations involved with any of the street-level cameras I've heard about. They -- and empty camera cases -- can be worthwhile tools for pushing drug dealers, prostitutes, and other individuals who don't want their business known to the world off the streets, and there have been recordings of entire and impressive crimes in progress, such as shootings or drug deals. Unfortunately, as soon as people walk or drive a few feet they'll be outside the range of the camera's vision, so even shootings that take place right in from of a camera aren't easily solved or even necessarily given much in the way of information. Older solutions tend to be horrible even at observing crime scenes; there are still some film-based camera systems floating around out there.

Back on the point of blade hysteria, I present this (http://www.gazettelive.co.u k/news/teesside-news/2008/07/26/mum-s-blast-at-batman-film-84229-21410836/).

[Galliard]

Argh! A sword is not a knife!!![