PDA

View Full Version : Army will shoot live pigs for medical training


UNODRAGONE
07-18-2008, 10:25 AM
wow, I can see both points of view on this one, though I honestly feel for the pigs :(


http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/18/army.shoot.pigs.ap/index.html




HONOLULU (AP) -- The Army says it's critical to saving the lives of wounded soldiers. Animal-rights activists call the training cruel and outdated.

Despite opposition by the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, the Army is moving forward with its plan to shoot live pigs and treat their gunshot wounds in a medical trauma exercise Friday at Schofield Barracks for soldiers headed to Iraq.

Maj. Derrick Cheng, spokesman for the 25th Infantry Division, said the training is being conducted under a U.S. Department of Agriculture license and the careful supervision of veterinarians and a military Animal Care and Use Committee.

"It's to teach Army personnel how to manage critically injured patients within the first few hours of their injury," Cheng said.

The soldiers are learning emergency lifesaving skills needed on the battlefield when there are no medics, doctors or facility nearby, he said.

PETA, however, said there are more advanced and humane options available, including high-tech human simulators. In a letter, PETA urged the Army to end all use of animals, "as the overwhelming majority of North American medical schools have already done."

"Shooting and maiming pigs is outdated as Civil War rifles," said Kathy Guillermo, director of PETA's Laboratory Investigations Department.

The Norfolk, Virginia-based group demanded the exercise be halted after it was notified by a "distraught" soldier from the unit, who disclosed a plan to shoot the animals with M4 carbines and M16 rifles.

"There's absolutely no reason why they have to shoot live pigs," PETA spokeswoman Holly Beal said.

The bloody exercise, she said, is difficult for soldiers because they sometimes associate the animals with their own pet dogs.

Cheng said the exercise is conducted in a controlled environment with the pigs anesthetized the entire time. He had "no doubt whatsoever" in the effectiveness of the instruction, which he called the best option available at the base.

"Those alternative methods just can't replicate what the troops are going to face when we use live-tissue training," he said. "What we're doing is unique to what the soldiers are going to actually experience."

Cheng didn't have details about the number of pigs, how they were acquired or the weapons involved in the training.

The soldiers being trained are with the 3rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division, which is deploying to Iraq this year.

"We understand (PETA's) concerns and point of view. At the same, the Army is committed to providing the soldiers with the best training possible," Cheng said.

Disappointed at the Army's decision, PETA on Thursday instructed its 2 million members to inundate the Army with calls and e-mails.

"We're hoping at the 11th hour here that we can have this stopped. We have to hang on to hope," Beal said.

PETA believes the U.S. military has conducted similar training at other bases using pigs and goats.
E-mail to a friend
Share this on:
Mixx
Digg

Facebook

del.icio.us

reddit

StumbleUpon

Myspace
| Mixx it | Share

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Ender
07-20-2008, 10:27 PM
Seriously? Seals getting owned all over Canada, gets attention for probably a week on a few different threads on the site, but not one of you tree hugging wack-jobs'll cause a scene about this on the site? Wow.

Lesson learned : Animal rights when the animals are cute.

http://werewolf.com/vb/showthread.php?t=494 4

http://werewolf.com/vb/showthread.php?t=102 32

http://werewolf.com/vb/showthread.php?t=183 23

I only ask because I'm trying to understand you traitors. Once again, support the human race. You're apart of it.

john the baptist
07-20-2008, 10:46 PM
The human race is evil and is slowly destroying the planet... Yeah I side with the animals.

LV426
07-21-2008, 01:09 AM
I'm not sure why they can't have the medics do a stint in any inner city ER. They would get plenty of gunshot wound treatment in a matter of hours.

punxnotdead
07-21-2008, 01:21 AM
I'm sure there are alternative measures instead of using pigs, but I think the officers want to train the soldiers to deal with the immediate stress of dealing with subjects that were just shot. If it's going to save lives in the end and be the best alternative, then yes, I support it. But I don't know alot of other alternative measures the army could take instead of using live animals.

If they use gun-shot victims in the ER, if they screw up, someone's life is lost. They wouldn't allow that.

LV426
07-21-2008, 02:13 AM
I'm sure there are alternative measures instead of using pigs, but I think the officers want to train the soldiers to deal with the immediate stress of dealing with subjects that were just shot. If it's going to save lives in the end and be the best alternative, then yes, I support it. But I don't know alot of other alternative measures the army could take instead of using live animals.

If they use gun-shot victims in the ER, if they screw up, someone's life is lost. They wouldn't allow that.

But if they are full on medics they should be prepared to deal with these situations and if nothing else can intern with ER doctors to learn the ropes until they can field their own gunshot wounds.

Sazabi
07-21-2008, 04:24 AM
a multitude of reasons:

1) The rounds they're practicing tend to have a fragmentation and/or yaw effect that is not simulatable in an urban environment. pistol caliber rounds very rarely do that in the same way assault rifle rounds do. They've been using pigs since the 50s for both civilian and medical practice. I guess PETA finally caught on.

2) It's instant access to gunshot wounds, as opposed to waiting in the ER for who knows how long. And even then they probably won't get to work on humans because of the legal ramifications. Also, these people are training to triage for later treatment by professionals. At an ER they don't get to do this.

3) Even civilian doctors practice on animals for gunshots, though I'm not sure how frequently. Since combat medics are basically seeing nothing but gunshots/shrapnal (aside from unrelated accidents)it pretty much makes sense to give them as much training with gunshots as possible.

4) Civilian internships are already difficult to get. Fill them up with military and the private sector is going to be pissed.

5) This is mostly being done at the Hawaii base, where as far as I understand, pigs are a HUGE threat to the ecosystem and they're trying to hunt them to virtually extinction. The methods that Hawaii uses to cull them is pretty cruel involving long hunts where they bleed the pig out. I'm having trouble feeling the Peta-rage when I read stuff like this

Pigs invade people's yards from Kaneohe to Hawaii Kai. By rooting, pigs destroy native plants and create breeding grounds for mosquitoes, which bring disease that threatens native birds.

When hunters arrive, one blocks off the nearest trail, ready to shoot if the pig should escape. The pig's back leg tendon is severed to prevent it from running. Death usually comes from plunging a long knife into the jugular vein, which also drains the blood.


Maybe PETA should be whining about that instead of using them for legitimate medical purposes.

Seriously? Seals getting owned all over Canada, gets attention for probably a week on a few different threads on the site, but not one of you tree hugging wack-jobs'll cause a scene about this on the site? Wow.

Lesson learned : Animal rights when the animals are cute. I only ask because I'm trying to understand you traitors. Once again, support the human race. You're apart of it.

To be fair I was right there on the front lines supporting the cruel clubbing of cute baby seals in one of those threads you linked.

TL: DR WAAAAAH WAH WAH, won't anybody THINK OF THE PIGGIES!?!?

Ender
07-21-2008, 05:08 AM
I'm waiting for the day we don't have to send our military into Canada to practice using VX gas on pigs. Not that I want that shit 'practiced' with on American soil, but I'd like it better if we didn't have to travel.

JtB, fuck animals.

UNODRAGONE
07-21-2008, 07:28 AM
I'm waiting for the day we don't have to send our military into Canada to practice using VX gas on pigs. Not that I want that shit 'practiced' with on American soil, but I'd like it better if we didn't have to travel.

JtB, fuck animals.

I say fuck people lol the planet was fine until our ass's got involved in it. You don't see animals killing to test out new toys :)

Sazabi
07-21-2008, 11:20 AM
I say fuck people lol the planet was fine until our ass's got involved in it. You don't see animals killing to test out new toys :)

No, you see them killing off others offspring and other atrocities to ensure that their genetic line survives instead of the guy living next store. animals4lyfe

MorganaFang
07-21-2008, 12:28 PM
You don't see animals killing to test out new toys :)

Actually in a lot of ways you do.

Primates have used bludgeons in fights, actually animal that has ability to use tools eventually learns how to use it for a violent advantage and yeah animals born with benefits (tusks, antlers, big beaks etc etc...) Will randomly bust out some crazy moves to get handle on what they are packing.

Humans may put more thought into or whatever, but uh we are still animals too. A lot of what we do is not too far off from what happens in nature.

greggchamberlain
07-21-2008, 12:34 PM
I'm not sure why they can't have the medics do a stint in any inner city ER. They would get plenty of gunshot wound treatment in a matter of hours.

what they want the medics to get practice on is battlefield situations where they would not have the resources of an ER or any MASH unit for immediate treatment.

what i would suggest instead is assign these medics to temporary duty with either urban police patrol units or paramedic units in areas of high firearms incident reports...let them be first on the scene and have to deal with a gunshot victim there and then.à

likely be a real benefit for both the victim and many hospital ERs in the end.

UNODRAGONE
07-21-2008, 12:34 PM
Actually in a lot of ways you do.

Primates have used bludgeons in fights, actually animal that has ability to use tools eventually learns how to use it for a violent advantage and yeah animals born with benefits (tusks, antlers, big beaks etc etc...) Will randomly bust out some crazy moves to get handle on what they are packing.

Humans may put more thought into or whatever, but uh we are still animals too. A lot of what we do is not too far off from what happens in nature.

true, but they don't sit here and find ways to test new toys as in weapons and biological weapons on eachother :)

MorganaFang
07-21-2008, 12:42 PM
true, but they don't sit here and find ways to test new toys as in weapons and biological weapons on eachother :)

I think if they had a choice they'd test it on us. :p

GhostBat
07-21-2008, 01:23 PM
Maybe it's just me, but anything that PETA opposes I have the urge to promote. I'm all for animal rights, but that cult is psycho.

MorganaFang
07-21-2008, 01:54 PM
Maybe it's just me, but anything that PETA opposes I have the urge to promote. I'm all for animal rights, but that cult is psycho.

Animals have a better chance on the battlefield than with PETA

Ender
07-21-2008, 02:09 PM
I think if they had a choice they'd test it on us.

As I've said for the longest time, Its us or them.