For all you christians

[lycanthrope012_8_03]

Why does the old testament never mention hell, and the new testament does, Why? If Jesus created hell, he must be a demon?

[The Fallen]

Why does the old testament never mention hell, and the new testament does, Why? If Jesus created hell, he must be a demon?
Ok, let me break this down so you can understand it. One of the old words used in the OT(old Testiment) is Sheol/sheoul. that, if im not mistaken is the word the Hebrews used for hell, any where but earth and heaven. So in escence, there was a hell. When the proverbial adam and eve took a bite of the forbidden fruit (not an apple) God asked what they had done. He said that he had warned them that to eat the fruit would certianly cause death. Not death as in no longer living on earth but death as in no longer having a place on Gods "good list". This is just a nice way to say that instead of going to heaven when you pass from this life to the next you will go to the other place. And no, Jesus did not "create" hell. Hell was already ccreated for Lucifer. See, ol' Lu got jealous of Gods love for us. He said something along the lines of "Yo God, I think i would liketh my own crib. I think i could do a much better job than your doingeth."So God said as you wish and gave him hell. so i hope i answered your question. Also, so ya know, the "serpent" that tempted Eve... well, the Hebrew word for serpent literally means "shining one" and ol' Lu was the "angel of light" just keep that in mind

[LV426]

Ok, let me break this down so you can understand it. One of the old words used in the OT(old Testiment) is Sheol/sheoul. that, if im not mistaken is the word the Hebrews used for hell, any where but earth and heaven. So in escence, there was a hell. When the proverbial adam and eve took a bite of the forbidden fruit (not an apple) God asked what they had done. He said that he had warned them that to eat the fruit would certianly cause death. Not death as in no longer living on earth but death as in no longer having a place on Gods "good list". This is just a nice way to say that instead of going to heaven when you pass from this life to the next you will go to the other place. And no, Jesus did not "create" hell. Hell was already ccreated for Lucifer. See, ol' Lu got jealous of Gods love for us. He said something along the lines of "Yo God, I think i would liketh my own crib. I think i could do a much better job than your doingeth."So God said as you wish and gave him hell. so i hope i answered your question. Also, so ya know, the "serpent" that tempted Eve... well, the Hebrew word for serpent literally means "shining one" and ol' Lu was the "angel of light" just keep that in mind

Son of the Morning Star actually


Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? A scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati researched this question. . What Hebrew name, was Satan given in Isaiah 14:12, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light. In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court.

The scholars authorized by King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God'."



Excerpt from A Pilgrim's Path
by John J. Robinson


Oh and as for hell, it is mentioned a few times in the old testament.

Numbers 16:30
But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that [appertain] unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord.

Numbers 16:33
They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

1 Samuel 2:6
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.


1 Samuel 22:6
The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Job 11:8
as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

Job 26:6
Hell [is] naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

Psalms 9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.

Psalms 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalms 30:3
O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

Psalms 55:15
Let death seize upon them,let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness in their dwellings, among them.

There are more than just these if you care to look. Some are a bit obscure and others are not.

Psalms 55:15

[J.L.R.]

There is a name for you Lycan...

and that name is Fount of Knowledge. :notworthy

[LV426]

There is a name for you Lycan...

and that name is Fount of Knowledge. :notworthy
I prefer god, but thank you.

[MexicanJewLizard]

Lucifer (Son of the Morning Star) is not what he is called by anyone anymore with a brain. It was his name while he was in Heaven. When he was cast out no one refered to him as "Lucifer" anymore. For anyone to call him Lucifer today would be wrong.

Jesus in a way did create hell. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, all in one. AKA: The Trinity. He most certainly is not a demon.

A demon is a fallen angel, and Jesus isn't one... read up on your things, lycanthrope012.

[gulogulo7]

Lucifer (Son of the Morning Star) is not what he is called by anyone anymore with a brain. It was his name while he was in Heaven. When he was cast out no one refered to him as "Lucifer" anymore. For anyone to call him Lucifer today would be wrong.

Jesus in a way did create hell. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, all in one. AKA: The Trinity. He most certainly is not a demon.

A demon is a fallen angel, and Jesus isn't one... read up on your things, lycanthrope012.

I don't see why you can't still call him that, he is the morning star and the evening star, who's to say he may not go back???

[MexicanJewLizard]

I don't see why you can't still call him that, he is the morning star and the evening star, who's to say he may not go back???

He's no longer God's "right hand man" and Lucifer is a more uplifting name.

[ArcaneWolf]

Lucifer (Son of the Morning Star) is not what he is called by anyone anymore with a brain. It was his name while he was in Heaven. When he was cast out no one refered to him as "Lucifer" anymore. For anyone to call him Lucifer today would be wrong.

Jesus in a way did create hell. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, all in one. AKA: The Trinity. He most certainly is not a demon.

A demon is a fallen angel, and Jesus isn't one... read up on your things, lycanthrope012.

Why not, Lucifer has a more romantic and pleasing sound to it then satan, which I always thought was a rather dumb name. Lucifer I find interesting because he's a Prometheus like character and I can certainly assosiate myself with such a character. The Christian mythology has made lucifer out to be a rather attractive figure.

[DarkWolf]

I'm not very knowledgeable in this area, but last I heard "Lucifer" was a holy name and thusly he lost it when he was cast down to Hell and became unholy. "Devil" is a term that means angel in another language, I think... "Satan" is what he was renamed to which means "the accuser" in hebrew (i think.. ?)

Memory and research are fuzzy on that and anything religious.

What I am certain of is the term "demon":

A demon, originally from greek: "daimon" and latin "daemon" meant 'any supernatural being': Gods and Deities were supernatural and thus God/Jesus could be considered a demon. So can the devil, ghosts, nymphs, fairies, werewolves, vampires and just about anything supernatural.

The Churches however, were basically in charge when the term came to be "demon" in the English Language. Anything supernatural was feared by the church and so the church laid claim anything supernatural was evil and unholy and so: any demon came to be considered evil and the church changed the meaning of "demon" to later mean: "any evil supernatural being". However, the original meaning still remained, just not in common use. Nowadays the church and their versions of good and evil and grips of control are no longer worth listening to: so the original definition of demon is now used properly more than it used to mean evil.

[DarkWolf]

Why not, Lucifer has a more romantic and pleasing sound to it then satan, which I always thought was a rather dumb name. Lucifer I find interesting because he's a Prometheus like character and I can certainly assosiate myself with such a character. The Christian mythology has made lucifer out to be a rather attractive figure.
Sorry to double post but this is easier.

ArcaneWolf how is Lucifer anything like Prometheus?

Lucifer: angel made by God who accused god, turned against God, etc and was cast to hell.

Prometheus: Greek titan (titans came first, they were before gods or other deities), who was kind to the gods. He was allowed to remain because he did not participate in the war. He later modelled clay figures, and showed them to Zeus. Zeus was so pleased with these figures: modelled after the image of the gods: that he bestowed life to these figures and thusly the first men were born. Prometheus wanted to give his new creations the best, keeping all evils away from mankind and storing them in a jar he warned his simple-brinded brother never to open. Prometheus also wished to bestow fire to his mankind, but Zeus refused: fire was reserved for gods alone. Prometheus was a titan still and easily angered, in spite of Zeus he stole fire from Olympus and gave it to his creation. Zeus, furious, then fashioned the first woman: Pandora, and sent her to Prometheus's brother, her curiosity over the jar was heightened by Zeus's hand and she convinced the brother to help her: and opened the jar and released the evils within upon mankind. Zeus's wrath is famous: tormenting Prometheus's creation was not enough and he bound Prometheus at the ends of the world and had a giant bird attack him for great lengths of time: titans are immortal: cannot be killed, so he would not be killed by this. So the bird would then leave, Prometheus would heal still bound and the bird would return: repeat for eternity.

Lucifer created nothing, and stole nothing, God created everything including Lucifer. How is he anything like Prometheus?

<-- has studied greek mythology since he was six

[ArcaneWolf]

Both are assosiated with Light/Fire. Both were damned to torment by their rulers for doing what they thought was right.

Mind you I think both are fictional characters so I'm not going to get into some sort of far fetched argument.

[McKitty]

Growing up in the Jewish faith I actually heard nothing about "Hell" but instead the punishment one received for whatever was a place far from God's light a.k.a. God's love. This probably was the metaphorical 'pit' spoken of.

Mind you I don't truly follow the faith any more seeing that I'm just an odd girl but that's what I do know and remember.

[DarkHunter]

I always thought Lucifer sounded too elegant.

Considerably, to best tempt someone, the Devil has to be seen as utterly attractive and able to relate too. If he was some raging beast demon thing, he'd have a harder time tempting us to do those bad things in life like feel proud of our accomplishments and such.

What a crock, right? I believe that maybe Lucifer is a real being. And maybe evil he is not. Maybe he's just a being construed by the knowledgeable (ack) writers of the bible. Who knows right?

Interesting idea. Might bring this discussion to the devout Catholics of the world.

[ShadowBeast]

To support McKitty,

I too grew up in a Jewish family and went to Hebrew school when I was young. During one of my more recent rants to my mother about the ignorance of humanity and religion (... basically refering to Christianity when I speak of it), I had asked if there was a "Hell" in the Olt Testament. She grew up a strict Jew, and knows a lot of the bible, and said there was no hell in the Jewish religion, but a place where punishment was dealt. oO; So.. Yeah...

And I always think of satin for some reason when people say "Satan".

Daemon was the original word for "demon". It is Latin for "supernatural being" and has no specific "good/evil" refernce... The Christians took the word and perverted it to mean something evil... Because... everything not Christian is evil... and reporducing is a sin... and... they're the only religion who tries to convert people... And the only religion who has a TV network... I think I'll stop before I get shot... Sorry...

[Qyv]

also the concept of pagan was originally a christian term for any who were not of their religion, only recently has the name taken on the meaning of those of the old druidic religions. a bit off topic i know, forgive me, but the thought came to me as i read this thread, anywhos, thats my tuppence worth

[McKitty]

Here's a contraversal (sp?) idea for you:

I was talking with my Grandmother (Jewish and Britsh, so she's a bit nuts) and she doesn't believe in the devil at all, rather, she believes that there is no devil, it's just the aspect of God that tests us.

Just a thought for you to mull over.

[DarkWolf]

Jewish and Britsh, so she's a bit nuts

Briton right here.

..

Okay yes I see your point....

[McKitty]

Hey, I'm British too ((My family from my grandmum's side is Englsih, Scottish, Irish,) and I get the nuts title as well :)

[Qyv]

English through and through here, and ive never once in my life heard anyone refer to me as nuts, then again i am partially deaf so maybe they werent sayin i was in pain, or a mutt after all lol, a theory ive come across is that god made it difficult to get into heaven originally, and his right hand angel (lucifer? or whatever name you wish to give) took pity and was moved to make it easier, god took affront but made a pact, the fallen angel was to tempt mankind, and they that resisted would be allowed entrance to heaven, a theory only mind, one that i neither believ nor disbelieve

[J.L.R.]

People just think I'm nuts... oh well...

[LOBO REY]

There are many theres how the old Satan-el fell from grace by either her pride or jealousy. It was actuly both. She belived that she could do a better job that God cause of how quickly he "forgot" about his first creation. So the highest of angels decided to rebel.
And after she fell to piss her off God turned Enoch a human in to the new highest angel Metatron. And then turned Elijah in to Soldphron.

[Hellcat]

People just think I'm nuts... oh well...

Hey you don't have to be British to be nuts...but it does help :D
<---Briton

[adom]

To support McKitty,

I too grew up in a Jewish family and went to Hebrew school when I was young. During one of my more recent rants to my mother about the ignorance of humanity and religion (... basically refering to Christianity when I speak of it), I had asked if there was a "Hell" in the Olt Testament. She grew up a strict Jew, and knows a lot of the bible, and said there was no hell in the Jewish religion, but a place where punishment was dealt. oO; So.. Yeah...

And I always think of satin for some reason when people say "Satan".

Daemon was the original word for "demon". It is Latin for "supernatural being" and has no specific "good/evil" refernce... The Christians took the word and perverted it to mean something evil... Because... everything not Christian is evil... and reporducing is a sin... and... they're the only religion who tries to convert people... And the only religion who has a TV network... I think I'll stop before I get shot... Sorry...
Some Christians even try to convert other Christians, to their version of Christianity. Fact is, every religion believes it is right and all others are wrong. I personally think God doesn't care what compells you to treat others with respect, as long as you do so. (Did I just admit to believing in God?)

As far as Christianity considering "reproducing"a sin, where did that come from? Outside of marriage intercourse is a sin, but once married, reproduction is practically manditory. Sex for pleasure is a sin (fornication!). Figure that one out. The only way to make this logic work is to stay a virgin until you are married (maybe it can be done), and then marry someone you find so sexually unappealing you don't enjoy it all when you "work" at having kids. This is what happens when you tell the leaders of a group of people they are not allowed to have sex or get married. They try to F**K it up for everybody.

Just had to clear that up.

By the way, as for my current religion: Don't think I have one. I was raised Catholic and now God and I have cut out the middle man and just deal with each other directly. I follow a basic code of ethics that makes sense to me and every so often try to help other people out. (UNless it's really inconvenient. Like I'm not going to help somebody move. That sucks.)

[J.L.R.]

As far as I know, there IS only ONE version of Christianity...that is if you go by what the Bible says. For Example: Church of Christ believes that salvation is obtained through baptism and good works, however this is completely unbiblical. The Apostle Paul made that very clear when he said, "Not by works lest ye boast." Christ himself made the statement, "I am the door, no man may enter but by me." John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoseover believeth in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life."

Romans Chapter 10 reinforces this doctrin, that the natural man was born into sin, because of the rebellion. It is a sinful nature inhereted through the bloodlines, and thus by a sinless bloodline can only be atoned. That bloodline was established through Jesus Christ. He is the High Priest, and because of His sacrifice, we have direct connection to God...

The problem in this day in age, and the biggest reason we have so many divisions, is the fact that MOST "Christians" don't read the Bible. Most "Christians" don't even know WHY they are Christians. They don't understand why the 10 commandments were implimented, and thusly they simply don't understand Christianity as a whole. So what is the point of calling yourself a Christian, if you don't follow the Bible, nor even believe in the Bible? To me it is all a joke. A big stupid joke. They want to call themselves Christians, but they don't want to follow the Bible... How can this be? It simply doesn't make since. I don't know about you, but I don't trust anyone who teaches from a pulpit, if I can't read for myself what he is teaching. There are TOO many preachers who use the pulpit for personal gain and power. That is why I find it extreemly important that young Christians read the Bible, so they know when somebody is teaching them wrong.

Sex is NOT a sin, and it is never seen as a sin. The misuse of sex is though. We are tought that sex is very important, since ultimately it is for recreation of life. God sees this as something very spiritual and sacred. In Bible times the act of sexual intercourse meant the two who were having sex were married...in God's eyes. That is why it was important that those who had sex were very sure that they wanted to spend their life together, because by the laws of that time, from that point on, they were seen as man and wife. We believe that people should base marraige off love first, and then sex... Why? Whether you like it or not, the sex appeal will not always last, and if you base your relationships off how good your sex life is, then that relationship will not last either.

With Biblical backing, I could never have sex with a woman, just for the sake of having sex. I personally believe that person deserves more than that. Yeah yeah... Once again, I am a traditionalist... A dying breed... but I still feel that the woman's body is sacred and to treat it anyway else cheapens her quality. I still say yes mam and no mam, I hold doors open for them, because they are special... oh well...

Christianity, if tought right, does teach to be respectful of others... When Christ said, "Love thy neighbor." He didn't specify what kind of neighbor you had to love. He meant the Christian to love all people, no matter how diverse the culture or beliefs...

Okay...I'm through....:D

[Darth Cluich]

With Biblical backing, I could never have sex with a woman, just for the sake of having sex. I personally believe that person deserves more than that. Yeah yeah... Once again, I am a traditionalist... A dying breed... but I still feel that the woman's body is sacred and to treat it anyway else cheapens her quality. I still say yes mam and no mam, I hold doors open for them, because they are special... oh well...

Then there are those of us who hold doors and say "ma'am" just so that women will have sex with us. ;)

[J.L.R.]

Then there are those of us who hold doors and say "ma'am" just so that women will have sex with us. ;)

And that works? :p

[Darth Cluich]

You'd be surprised how well... ;)

[LV426]

If they say it the right way it does. :)

[Darth Cluich]

On the mark there, as always...ma'am. ;)

[DarkWolf]

Sorry JLR but you promoted one of the very reasons why I dislike Christianity:

that the natural man was born into sin, because of the rebellion. It is a sinful nature inhereted through the bloodlines, and thus by a sinless bloodline can only be atoned.

Basically we have to atone because we're born? Why? God made us all, he made the Devil, he originated the concept of sin, and forced our biology to reproduce sexually: so that we were to be born. We're expected to atone for what he had us do? We aren't the ones who rebelled, why are we the ones carrying sins of those who died long ago?

This is just one point amongst many as to why if I died and I was brought to God for judgement: If I had the choice: I will personally choose Hell.

[J.L.R.]

Sorry JLR but you promoted one of the very reasons why I dislike Christianity:



Basically we have to atone because we're born? Why? God made us all, he made the Devil, he originated the concept of sin, and forced our biology to reproduce sexually: so that we were to be born. We're expected to atone for what he had us do? We aren't the ones who rebelled, why are we the ones carrying sins of those who died long ago?

This is just one point amongst many as to why if I died and I was brought to God for judgement: If I had the choice: I will personally choose Hell.

Actually it is quite simple DW... God created a perfect world. God created all manner of living creatures and gave them the abilities to survive. God created humanity. Unlike the rest of the creatures on this world, God gave man free will. God gave our species a set of simple rules, however humanity chose to disobey... Because of this disobediance, our race was cursed. God did not create sin or evil... We did and we embraced it. Through out history our sinful nature has destroyed not only ourselves, but the world in which we live in. Our history books are dipped in the blood of countless wars.
So in your opinion... there is nothing wrong with humanity? We are simply fullfilling our course in this world?

You don't have to be blind to recognize that there is something wrong with the our species.

God, in His own right, could have just wiped us out, but He didn't.

Look, DW, I know there are a bunch of jerk "Christians" out there, and they probably been mean to you. I don't know all that you've been through, but I know you have been through a lot. You can't tell me there isn't something wrong there. That it is natural.

Being a true Christian, is understanding that there is something wrong with our species, and finding the ability to do something about it. God gave us the path, but He gave us the free will to choose. We were born with a disease, and He has the cure...

Hell vs. Heaven....

Just a side note... You do know that in the Christian Heaven...we get to play with large kitties... Lions and tigers will be our friends... children will walk with wolves... everything will be at peace...

So what would you honestly want...

To live in a world that has been healed. All species at peace with one another including humanity...

or

You soul burns for all eternity in everlasting fiery torment...

Honestly, you would choose fire over kitties? :D

[ArcaneWolf]

@JLR- I'll admit that having Lions and wolves as friends would certainly be great, but I really hate it when a person/group (even if it's a holy man) tries to define paradise. One man's paradise is anothers pain.

Second I've seen discussions among theologians about the bible's definition of hell and hell isn't all the fire and brimstone crap. It's a tradition started by the catholic church and passed down to just about ever other church. In the dark ages pagan europe had been converted to christianity, however a lot of the public thought they could keep their pagan traditions or even thought their past gods and the christian god were the same. The Vatican caught on to what was going on and ordered a group of priests to go about traveling through europe to preach how if the people didn't strictly follow the christian(catholic) dogma the people would be severly punished. The priests then basically used their imagination for their definitions of hell. I might want to also add that Dante's work "Inferno" certainly had an influence on the general public's idea of hell (and it's continued to today).

The theologians in the program found based on the bible (old and new) that hell simple means absense of god. So hell is simple a place where God doesn't exist and not all the fire, brimestone, harpies, lakes of boiling blood and such.

[adom]

Actually it is quite simple DW... God created a perfect world. God created all manner of living creatures and gave them the abilities to survive. God created humanity. Unlike the rest of the creatures on this world, God gave man free will. God gave our species a set of simple rules, however humanity chose to disobey... Because of this disobediance, our race was cursed. God did not create sin or evil... We did and we embraced it. Through out history our sinful nature has destroyed not only ourselves, but the world in which we live in. Our history books are dipped in the blood of countless wars.
So in your opinion... there is nothing wrong with humanity? We are simply fullfilling our course in this world?

You don't have to be blind to recognize that there is something wrong with the our species.

God, in His own right, could have just wiped us out, but He didn't.

Look, DW, I know there are a bunch of jerk "Christians" out there, and they probably been mean to you. I don't know all that you've been through, but I know you have been through a lot. You can't tell me there isn't something wrong there. That it is natural.

Being a true Christian, is understanding that there is something wrong with our species, and finding the ability to do something about it. God gave us the path, but He gave us the free will to choose. We were born with a disease, and He has the cure...

Hell vs. Heaven....

Just a side note... You do know that in the Christian Heaven...we get to play with large kitties... Lions and tigers will be our friends... children will walk with wolves... everything will be at peace...

So what would you honestly want...

To live in a world that has been healed. All species at peace with one another including humanity...

or

You soul burns for all eternity in everlasting fiery torment...

Honestly, you would choose fire over kitties? :D

This is where the Catholic Church lost me. I was taught (and never believed) animals have no soul and thus could never enter into heaven. Meaning, heaven has no ANIMALS?! My heaven would need too. I couldn't be happy without animals. Really, I don't think I could. When I travel I miss my dogs more than my house, work or most people (you can talk to people on the phone.) This really bothered me. I finally found out that the teaching went back to a Latin translation of the Bible that said that Noah traveled with 6 (I think. However many members of his family were with him) souls and two of each kind of animal. Because animals were listed seperate from "souls" they must not have one and thus are not to be included in the afterlife. If you'v ever spoken to someone who has translated anything, you know that something gets lost and I for one do not want to write off animals because some translator decided to use the word "souls" instead of "men" to be politically correct a thousand years ago.

I also have a problem with any fundamentalist interpratation of the bible since so much of contracdicts the other stuff. (Flanders in the Simpsons.)

[Binkx]

I'm sorry, but I always found the bible difficult to believe with all it's contridictions, plus with todays technology some of the stories in the bible seem out right ridiculus (sorry if I misspelled that).

My main example in the Tower of Bable.

Men wanted to build a tower that would reach God, but when he learned of this (and why didn't he know ahead of time...may just be the version I read or something, but seems a bit off) he made them all speak to where they could no longer communicate by word of mouth.

We now go to space, but God has done nothing of this. We've seen beyond our world, and what have we seen. Space...stars (or other suns, whichever you prefer), moons, rocks, and nothingness. No God, no heaven.

For this I believe that Heaven and Hell is just in our immagination, created long ago by some one who wanted people to behave in a certain manner.

"If you go against the bible you go to Hell"

"If you are a good girl, you go to Heaven"

It's simular to Santa in a way. We tell our children, and told when we were children (only for those who were raised with christmas that is...I'm not familuar with other religions), that if we are good, Santa will bring us toys, and if we are bad, we get coal.

Well God is Santa, Heaven is toys, and Hell is the lump of coal. We want God to give (or grant) us entrance to Heaven. We don't want to go to Hell.

I just don't think we as humans can get away from this "evil". Some of our evils are genetic or how we were raised. People with Anti-Social disorder don't have a conscience, they don't have compasion. They do not comprehend right from wrong. So they kill cause they see it as entertaining, and who does not enjoy a bit of pleasure? It is not these peoples fault that they do not hold the ability to feel compassion, they did not ask to be born without it. They just were.


I also think that God is also in our immaginations (only makes sense if I believe that Heaven and Hell is). I believe that we want a reason for how things are, that we want an excuse for how horrible our lives are going and don't want to blame ourselves. We want someone to turn to when life is so over whelming, we want help that we cannot get here on Earth.

Yes I believe in Miricals, the best explination I have for miricals in the human will power. God is a security net, someone extreemly ill is in the hospital nearing death, closer with each breath (not that it's any diffrent from those of us that are well), they pray, and pray, and pray that God will make them better. They hear of their family and friends praying for them, these two combined stregnthens their will. "God will save me" is their thoughts through most of their turmoil. They believe so hard that they will be saved and allowed to live longer that they heal.

I believe our will power is a key in helping us go on. So belief in God in my book is not a bad thing, even if I don't believe in in him myself. It helps people to feel better, it gives them the stregnth they need to move on, even if it's not God himself.

The miricals away from illness, I say is just mere (spelling?) coincidence, we get lucky sometimes, but some people want to believe it's God that has granted them this.

Basically, all everything we do in life comes down to whether or not we believe it can happen. Someone believed that we could fly, so now we fly (in airplanes), someone believed that we could talk from miles apart as if we were in the same room, now we do (phone and internet), someone believed we can land on the moon, and we did.

I know my argument is a bit faulty and contradictory, but it's what I think and believe. You guys can argue through my points, but this is how I see the world. This is where I'm leaving it, and I'll just read through the rest of this thread with no more post.

I also appologize for my jumping around a bit. It's just how my mind works, it jumps from one thing to another.

[Klark]

I just want to add that God did create evil.

God created the angel Lucifer. Now, you have to ask yourself, is God good or bad? If he is omnipotent and knows past, present, and future, then God himself created Lucifer knowing that Lucifer would one day try to be as powerful as him. God would have known that he would cast Lucifer out and that Lucifer would become the Devil. So, either God created evil and is therefore evil himself or he didn't know, which throws out so many religious beliefs that it's really not funny. :shrug:

[Darth Cluich]

Okay, I can't remember how many times I've posted something to this effect, but the story of Lucifer's rebellion and his fall from Heaven is not in the Bible. Our generally accepted version of the story comes from John Milton's Paradise Lost, in which Lucifer's rebellion was not predicated upon a desire to be equal to God but rather out of jealousy of God's newest creation: Man.

[Tiamot]

After reading the progression of the thread, I feel the need to throw my voice into the mix. First of all, I feel it necessary to tell you my religious stance so that you may better understand where I am coming from. I am not Atheist, not Wiccan, not Christian, Jewish, Muslim, nor, in fact, any mainstream religion. When people ask, “What religion are you?” I tell them, “I belong to the church of Tiamot,” meaning thus: I am not a self-worshiper, rather, my own beliefs do not adhere to any known doctrine; they do not easily fit into a category. By definition I wouldn’t be a specific religion. Supposedly, I fall into the ‘Spiritual’ category. I believe in a creator being, whom I choose to call God and to refer to as him, for lack of a better term, therefore do not assume that when I refer to God, I am always speaking of God as defined by Christianity or that I think that God is male. I also wish it to be known that I am by no means trying to impress my ideas upon anyone; rather, I hope to present a different point of view that you may think upon.

Since the discussion has left off with the concepts of heaven, hell, good, evil, and last but not least, the bible, it would be appropriate for me to begin with these subjects.

I’ve read the Bible, and found the contradictions that so many of you have. I have come to my own conclusions about this ancient book. My number one gripe about the Bible is that it was translated and put onto paper by human beings: imperfect, fallible, some times idiotic, human beings. Let’s suppose that the entire bible is in fact the direct word of God. How could mere mortals even conceive of such ideas, let alone express them in a way that would preserve those ideas in their original context? Historians have already pointed out many translation errors and inconsistencies when concerning different versions, and even with older and newer texts. The whole story of Lucifer could be one example. In addition, we now know historically how the bible got slapped together as a book, and that there are many passages therein that refer to historical events rather than religious concepts.

Many Christians envision the bible as always being a complete book, as if God just handed it to someone out of the clouds one day. Historical fact tells us otherwise. Christianity started as a cult, people. There are numerous textual accounts that attest to this (yes numerous, the religion sprang up in Roman times and in land that was part of the Roman empire, and we all know how Romans liked to write! =D ) It was a Roman emperor that kick-started the compilation of the Bible. The church leaders of the time had the arduous task of gathering all of the documents that had been written by their community through the ages and deciding which should be in the ‘Good Book’ and which shouldn’t. They also came up with a doctrine and addressed the idea of the Trinity in such a way as to preserve the monotheism of their religion. These leaders had to decide what was ‘real’ to them and what wasn’t. They decided that the oldest texts must be true, since they were penned closer to the actual time that Christ was alive. Also, texts written by certain apostles that supposedly knew Jesus were also deemed true. There after they began to compare texts. If numerous different texts referred to the same concept, they deemed that concept truth and stuck it in. Concepts that didn’t seem to fit or were way out in left field were discarded. Many of the discarded texts still survive, and we seem to discover more all the time. Many were banned or deemed false by the church in order to preserve the doctrine. The book of Enoch is an example, banned because it presented ideas that contradicted the system that was in place. The Bible was put together by human decision. Their way of life and thinking even came into play when they were making up their minds. For example, there is a text that refers to the newly resurrected Jesus first appearing to Mary Magdalene that was discarded because, “The son of God would never appear thus to a mere woman.” Think about it...this isn’t stuff that they regularly teach in church. (That said, you may argue that God himself was standing over the leaders’ shoulders directing their decisions, but again, I’m not presenting this view for debate, just merely making a statement.)

Ah yes, now on to gripe number two. I find that too many people interpret the bible in the wrong way. Now that was a damning statement if there ever was one; what I mean by interpret is this: too many take the entire book literally, and those who do read between the lines make their interpretations out of context. In short, people hear what they want to hear. Let me give you an example. My husband’s family is hardcore Norwegian Lutheran. Very old fashioned and traditional with their beliefs, (my husband was raised to think that after taking ONE drink of alcohol, you were automatically addicted and that playing cards were evil, heh.. go fig!) My husband and his sister were baptized as babies, as per Lutheran belief. My sister-in-law and her husband plan on having children and they are not going to baptize them as babies, rather they feel that it should be the choice of the child to be baptized into whatever faith they believe. As you can imagine, my mother and father in-law had fits, believing that if an anabaptized child were to die, it would go straight to hell because of the ‘original sin.’ They must have skipped over the part in the New Testament that talks about the death of Jesus being the atonement for the ‘original sin.’ Sure, they believe that Jesus died for their sins, but to them, it only applies in certain circumstances. Doesn’t make much sense to me, or to my sister-in-law for that matter, but so far she hasn’t been able to convince her parents of this. They see what they want to see. Quite honestly, I don’t believe the bible even makes reference to children being baptized, and that baptism was a NT tradition. (I most certainly could be wrong about this, however arguing the point would be rather inane.)

I have found that much of the information in the bible is of a historical nature. Take Numbers, for instance. What religious conviction can be gleaned from “so and so begot so and so and he was 46 years old. And there were 5,324 members of this tribe.” ?? People like to believe that there is some spiritual meaning in everything, rather than seeing that parts are historical accounts. This makes these accounts no less important, as knowing is half the battle. There are even problems with taking things too literally. There are those out there that honestly believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old. Wanna know why? Because God created the heavens and the earth in seven days. Yup, seven literal days. Now you have every right to buy this, but if it seems wrong, or you happen to adhere to the scientific fact of the earth’s age being more like BILLIONS, by all means, read on. I have had this discussion with many believers. My argument is this, How can you assume that one day to God, is the same 24 hours that you call a day? It would be logical to assume that an immortal being such as God does not measure time as we do, if at all. Now look at from this angle. If you were a person living two thousand years ago, and I started talking to you about chemistry, genetics, advanced astronomy, heck, even a telephone, would you believe or even understand what I was talking about? If I wanted to tell you about the formation of the earth, I’d have to put it into terms you could understand. We have to remember that when we read a text that was penned two thousand years ago, it was written for the people of the time to read; with the knowledge and reality that the individuals of the time possessed. Now for a bit of my own theory; I firmly believe that God knew he had to give these people explanations that they could understand in relation to their own world and current advancement. Seven days is a metaphor. For all we know God had the whole thing in the oven for billions of years; which would be the bat of an eyelash to him.

[Tiamot]

(sorry, peeps, there's more! :p )

Now for my take on heaven, hell, good and evil, if you are interested to know.

Heaven and hell are what you make of it; they are personally tailored to each individual. If hell to you would be the pain of burning for all eternity, or having to exist utterly on thirty year old boiled eggs and dried up slugs, then so be it. There’s your hell. Inversely if your heaven is living in a place that is filled with animals, or a place where all the chocolate and ice-cream is calorie free, then woo-hoo! There’s your heaven. I also believe that there is a deeper current to heaven and hell. That once we die and eventually the time comes for us to know the true nature of creation and God, we will be enlightened, and in heaven we may continue to exist in this enlightened state, however in hell, we will be forced to exist in a semi-enlightened state. A state that allows us to be painfully aware of the cause for us not being in heaven and out of the favor of the creator. I don’t think that heaven and hell are separate places, they are on the same plane of existence so to speak.

As far as good and evil go, I must really start to go into the nature of God, which I entirely loathe doing. It seems to me that such a thing is not within our scope of reckoning; a thing that we are not even meant to understand. But, here goes. I don’t hold to the image of God as this big lovey teddy-bear that is nothing but pure good. God embodies every concept that we can and cannot conceive. He is male and female, everything and nothing, good and evil. This is how he can perceive everything, and exist in a state of perfection. He is the first awareness, the first consciousness, if you will. Good and evil as we know them are just human definitions; labels to describe one thing as favorable and another thing as unfavorable. One must exist in order to give the other definition and meaning, something to compare to. It would seem that God most definitely has an idea of what he likes and doesn’t like, therefore, we define things that please him as good and things that displease him as evil. We even bring this down to a more personal scale. Things that please or help us we perceive as good, and things that may damage or displease us are evil. Each individual has his own concept of right and wrong. Things that are deemed extremely wrong by society get labeled as evil and vice-versa.
In reference to the traditional beliefs as to the nature of God (He is all good, all merciful, all powerful, all knowing, etc.) How could he, who is all powerful and all knowing, create an ultimate evil, or even allow one to exist, and then stand by and let it grow great enough to present a challenge? This would greatly contradict the omniscience of God. Further more, it would seem that everything in the universe serves some, even a small, purpose. With this in mind, what would the point be to have this ultimate evil running around and corrupting things? For its own pleasure? Perhaps. It seems more likely to me, that evil exists because of two reasons: firstly, we go back to the whole idea that it is needed for balance and definition; secondly, it exists among humanity because it is allowed to. Perhaps God let’s evil exist to weed out the idiots, I don’t claim to know exactly why it is thus. I most certainly have my ideas, though, which I feel are another story entirely.
In the interest of being too long winded, I will stop here. Forgive me if my incessant ramblings make little sense!

[DarkWolf]

So in your opinion... there is nothing wrong with humanity? We are simply fullfilling our course in this world?Exactly. Yes we have wars, crimes, and such as. Yet without these things we'd overcrowd the world, grow to be unhappy and uncaring (because we'd have nothing to compare happiness to, we need sadness to identify happiness), and we'd die out sooner as a species. So, where is the "good" in that?

They keyword is balance. The world is not doomed. There are more people happy than there are sad. It is also very hard for us to destroy the world - we're not that great. The world started as a piece of rock and grew into this.

And animals don't have free will? That's crap. Free will is making a choice on your own. Animals do that. I usually give my three cats a choice between fish or other meat.. on some days they all opt for the fish and on others they'll decide they'll have the other meat (usually chicken or rabbit, those are their faves, 'cept for Billy who likes turkey more). So considering this is, technically speaking, an act of free will - does this mean God made a mistake, or that your bible is wrong? I see this in dogs too, and in wild animals.

God didn't create evil. We did - morality is a human concept. But God is all-knowing and all-powerful, so he knew darn well we would create it. He could simply have chosen to prevent it.

And if God intended for us to have freewill... Why are so many of his disciples/churches doing everything they can to take it away from us?

I'm not getting at you, JLR, you can believe whatever you wish, but I just don't like your religion and nothing is going to change that. My views on morality are different, my views on humanity are different, and my views on religion are different.

And yes... If christianity was true and I was given the choice I would choose Hell over a heaven with cats! That should give you a small indication of how much I dislike Christianity (doesn't mean I'll dislike the followers). I just wish that the majority of the "flock" would realise it is my choice.

[LV426]

Basically JLR hasn't read his Bible because if he had he would know that it is written in that lovely book that God created everything. Everything including good and evil and if he hadn't created evil then humans wouldn't have that as a choice to make. One can not choose something that doesn't exist.

[Darth Cluich]

But evil (or good, for that matter) doesn't have to be created per se, as it is not a substantive thing. Why could it not just be?

[J.L.R.]

Basically JLR hasn't read his Bible because if he had he would know that it is written in that lovely book that God created everything. Everything including good and evil and if he hadn't created evil then humans wouldn't have that as a choice to make. One can not choose something that doesn't exist.

Ow... that was below the belt... :D

You did a Miss. Piggy karate chop on me...:D

Okay LH...

I've read my Bible...several times now. In fact I am still reading it... Good and Evil are concepts. Those concepts we created. Those concepts were created when Adam chose to disobey God by eating of the Tree of Knowledge. Why would God place such a tree in the garden, knowing that the fledgling race would be corrupted is a complicated question to ask, and this has baffled many scholars and those studying the Word of God...

My personal belief is this...based on a few passages from the Bible...

There was a terrible war in Heaven between God and His angels and Satan and his followers. God casts Satan from Heaven as well as the 1/3 of the angels that sided with Satan. Satan then temps God, that if He created a race that was given the free will to choose between God or Satan, that these people would choose to disobey God in favor of Beelzebub. God creates the World. God creates all living creatures, and then God creates man. He gives man his free will, and places the pieces together to preform the test. As any artist, God loves His work, and even though He knows the outcome, God refuses to destory the fledgling race. He knows that this race will disobey Him, and that horrorible things on this world will be wrought at the hands of this species, but He also knows, that there will be those who will follow Him, out of their own free will, and for the sake of a few righteous, God holds His wrath for a time...

[Darth Cluich]

There was a terrible war in Heaven between God and His angels and Satan and his followers. God casts Satan from Heaven as well as the 1/3 of the angels that sided with Satan. Satan then temps God, that if He created a race that was given the free will to choose between God or Satan, that these people would choose to disobey God in favor of Beelzebub. God creates the World. God creates all living creatures, and then God creates man. He gives man his free will, and places the pieces together to preform the test. As any artist, God loves His work, and even though He knows the outcome, God refuses to destory the fledgling race. He knows that this race will disobey Him, and that horrorible things on this world will be wrought at the hands of this species, but He also knows, that there will be those who will follow Him, out of their own free will, and for the sake of a few righteous, God holds His wrath for a time...

Okay, first, this isn't in the Bible. Secondly, Beelzebub and Satan, to the Hebrews (as well as the other peoples of the ancient Near East), were not the same thing. The two were lumped together in the early days of Christianity, when the characteristics and, in some cases, names of pagan gods became part of the Christian Satan myth.

[J.L.R.]

Okay, first, this isn't in the Bible. Secondly, Beelzebub and Satan, to the Hebrews (as well as the other peoples of the ancient Near East), were not the same thing. The two were lumped together in the early days of Christianity, when the characteristics and, in some cases, names of pagan gods became part of the Christian Satan myth.

I didn't say that what I said was in the Bible. I said it is my opinion based upon different passages from the Bible. A theory, if none the less...

Beelzebub, I believe is the Lord of the Flies... or something like that... I might have the wrong god... It was more of a cut down, to Satan's character than anything else...

Of course the greatest and the most unbiblical myth about Satan is the fact that he has horns, a red tail, and cloven feet. Biblically speaking, Satan was second only to God. He was the most beautiful of all angels, as well as the most prideful. As already mentioned, the early church...more Roman Catholic than not, gave him that appearance in order to make him less desirable...too bad he was already working through the whole lot of them...

[LV426]

Now hold on, you say that man created but according to the Bible Man can not create, only god can create, god created everything. If god created everything then he is responsible for evil as well as good. Even if it is just a concept, man can not create, only god can create, so therefore god created evil or the concept of evil.

[Darth Cluich]

Beelzebub, I believe is the Lord of the Flies... or something like that... I might have the wrong god... It was more of a cut down, to Satan's character than anything else...

He was originally a pagan deity named Baalzebul (my spelling's probably a bit off there). He had no connection to the Judeo-Christian Satan until the Roman Church made one.

[DarkWolf]

Spelling: Beelzebub or Beelzebul.

I think it is in Hebrew demonology where Beelzebub was considered "the prince of demons" with the evil spirit of lust Asmodeus as chief of demons. :shrug:

[Darth Cluich]

Where's tiamot, our resident demonologist, when we need her?

[LV426]

Beelzebub (also Baal-zebub, Baalzebub, Bealzebub, Beelzebul and others) was an epithet given to Baal Baal is a Semitic word which primarily signifies "lord" or "master," thus the deity inhabiting a specific place, and the relationship of the deity to his worshipper. In the latter usage it originally indicated, not explicitly that the god was the lord of the worshipper, but rather he was the possessor of, or ruler in, some place or district.

The Baals of different tribes or sanctuaries were not necessarily conceived as identical, so that we find frequent mention of Baalim, or rather "the Baalim" in the plural.
The chief god The noun God refers to any of a number of postulated immortal, supernatural beings, usually said to rule, alone or in company with other gods, over the destinies of humankind and the universe. When spelled with a capital "G" it is a proper noun, usually the name given in English to the one supreme being, as postulated, especially but not exclusively, by the three major Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) as well as Sikhism and Zoroastrianism. When spelled with a small "g" it is a common noun, referring to an influential teacher or postulated supernatural being of any religious system, as for example the gods of the Greek and Roman religions.


In Judaism he became known to them as the "Lord of the Flies Lord of the Flies is the English-language translation of the Hebrew word Baal-zevuv, which in turn is a deliberate corrption of the name of the Semitic god Beelzebub. Ancient Israelites changed the meaning of Beelzebub to disparage the pagan god, positioning Beelzebub as lesser than Yahweh, and later, as a false idol. Christian references to Beelzebub used the same derivation to describe Satan.

Baal, Beelzebub and the New Testament in Baal Baal is a Semitic word which primarily signifies "lord" or "master," thus the deity inhabiting a specific place, and the relationship of the deity to his worshipper. In the latter usage it originally indicated, not explicitly that the god was the lord of the worshipper, but rather he was the possessor of, or ruler in, some place or district. The Baals of different tribes or sanctuaries were not necessarily conceived as identical, so that we find frequent mention of Baalim, or rather "the Baalim" in the plural.

In Christianity Beelzebub has simply become an alternative name for Satan Alternate meaning: Satan is also the name of a genus of catfish.



Demons in the Hebrew Bible

In Beelzebub's name (Matthew The Gospel of Matthew is one of the four Gospels of the New Testament. The gospels are traditionally printed with Matthew first, followed in order by Mark, Luke and John.



During the European Middle Age The Middle Ages was the middle period in a schematic division of European history into three 'ages': Classical civilization, the Middle Ages, and Modern Civilization. It is commonly considered as having lasted from the end of the Western Roman Empire (5th century) until the rise of national monarchies and the beginnings of demographic and economic renewal after the Black Death, European overseas exploration and the cultural revival known as the Renaissance around the 15th century as well as the Protestant Reformation starting 1517.

Beelzebub and the original Baal (also turned into a demon) were separated into two different demons.

When Christianity turned ancient gods into demons and demonology divided the demonic population of Hell in several hierarchies, Baal, the Semitic god, did not escape, becoming a separate entity from Beelzebub.

According to demonology Baal was ranked as the first and principal King in Hell, ruling over

All demonological accounts of Beelzebub place him high in Hell's For alternative meanings see Hell (disambiguation).

Hell is, according to many religious beliefs about the afterlife, a place of torment, of great weeping and gnashing of teeth. The English word 'hell' comes from Old English 'Hel', which originally referred to the goddess of the underworld.

In most religions' concept of hell, evildoers will suffer eternally in hell after their death or they will pay for their bad deeds in hell before reincarnations.

A book presumably written by Faust Faust is the protagonist of a popular tale that has been used as the basis for many different fictional works. It concerns the fate of a learned gentleman, Johann Faust, who summons the Devil, who in the tale is usually called Mephistopheles, and offers to sell him his soul if the Devil will serve him for a given period of time. A contract signed in blood is drawn up and is given the diabolical signature: ultimately, in most later versions of the tale Faust's soul remains his at the end of the devil's term of service.
..... Click the link for more information. in 1505 Centuries: 15th century - 16th century - 17th century

According to Occultist Johannes Wierus, Beelzebub is the chief lieutenant of Lucifer, the emperor of Hell, and presides over the Order of the Fly. Similarly, the 17th century exorcist Sebastian Michaelis, in his Admirable History (1612), placed Beelzebub among the three most prominent fallen angels, the other two being Lucifer and Leviathan, whereas two 18th century works identified an unholy trinity consisting of Beelzebub, Lucifer, and Astaroth. However, John Milton featured Beelzebub as merely being one of the many fallen cherubim in the epic poem Paradise Lost, first published in 1667.

Beelzebub's precise role was variously identified by the 17th and 18th century demon-hunters. Sebastien Michaelis associated Beelzebub with the deadly sin of pride. However, according to Peter Binsfeld, Beelzebub was the demon of gluttony, one of the other seven deadly sins, whereas Francis Barrett asserted that Beelzebub was the prince of false gods. In any event, Beelzebub was frequently named as an object of supplication by confessed witches. After being accused by the Pharisees of possessing Jesus, he has also been held responsible for at least one famous case of alleged demon possession which occurred in Aix-en-Provence in 1611 involving a nun by the name of Sister Madeleine de Demandolx de la Palud who named one Father Jean-Baptiste Gaufridi as a bewitcher of young nuns. Beelzebub was also imagined prowling Salem, Massachusetts: his name came up repeatedly during the Salem witch trials, the last large-scale public expression of witch hysteria, and afterwards Rev. Cotton Mather wrote a pamphlet entitled Of Beelzebub and his Plot.

The title of William Golding's novel Lord of the Flies is a literal English translation of "Beelzebub."

[J.L.R.]

Damn...:D LH at her finest...

One has to wonder how she stores all of this information... Just reading it makes my brain hurt, but then again...I'm a blonde...:D

Then again, and in truth, I am not one of overly brilliance...and I was good to get A's in school and in college... I made good grades, but I had to work for it...

[LV426]

Well the Beelzebub stuff I stole from the encyclopedia. I had some of the info regarding Baal and Beelzebub as well as later references in my head but I couldn't have typed it out that concisely but it helps to know what you are looking for when you are researching. I have stacks and stacks of info in my brain, some of which I don't even know until I see a something that acts as a trigger for the info.

[J.L.R.]

Wow....

I need to get my brain upgraded... You know, one of those non-MS Windows brains with 80gb hard drives... Windows keeps crashing my mind... :D

In truth I also retain a lot of info in my mind... seriously, but it is usually until after the fact, that I actually think of something intellegent to say.

I spend a lot of the day thinking... pondering stuff... sometimes it is really deep, while other times shallow... I tire my mind often... There is just too much information to absorb, and if I am not careful, I get into the, "I don't care mode..."

At any rate, it is always nice to see somebody who takes the time to give information... :D

[Tiamot]

Well, Cluich, thanks for 'needing' me! I think LH took care of things nicely, though. All said, Beelzebub, Satan, and Lucifer are all used interchangeably for the being that Christian's define as the "ultimate evil" although they are not necessarily the same entity. As far as I know, they are not actual entities, per se, just perversions of names and foreign words. Through the years, however, they seemed to have taken on a life of their own.

[Wolfguard]

Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.
Very intersting. So then where did the Muslims get "Sheitoun" from? Is it not where the word Satan is derived from (not unlike aljibr = algebra, jamel = camel, sukkar = sugar, etc.)? It had to have an origin somewhere, and since Judaism, Christianity and Islam have some common ground...

:shrug:

[Faerie_flame]

I'm not trying to be smart at all here, this is just a genuine question: why does the Bible say both, 'Turn the other cheek,' and 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,'? Surely this means that you sould turn the other cheek, but hit back at the same time? It doesn't make sense to me...

[Darth Cluich]

I'm not trying to be smart at all here, this is just a genuine question: why does the Bible say both, 'Turn the other cheek,' and 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,'? Surely this means that you sould turn the other cheek, but hit back at the same time? It doesn't make sense to me...

That's because the talionic code of justice ("eye for an eye," etc.) is from the Old Testament, while the "turn the other cheek" stuff was espoused by Christ in the New Testament. They are distinctly different books in many ways.

[J.L.R.]

I'm not trying to be smart at all here, this is just a genuine question: why does the Bible say both, 'Turn the other cheek,' and 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,'? Surely this means that you sould turn the other cheek, but hit back at the same time? It doesn't make sense to me...

Actually there are several books and several thousands years separating the two...

Think of it this way, the Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth, were rules given to the Jews while they were under the Law. As the Bible explains, life under the Law was harsh, since it demanded the people to be almost perfect, of which few ever were. The wonderful thing about the heroes of the Bible, is that they were flawed normal people as well. Even David, one of the Greats in the Bible, commited fornication and even murder!

The Eye for an Eye and Tooth for a Tooth, was the just judgement for those who commited crimes. In other words, it was saying, you do something wrong, you are going to get a just punishment according to the severity of the crime. You steal someone's belongings, you were to pay them back 7 fold. You murder somebody, and get away, an Avenger of Blood was selected from the person's family to find and slay the murderer. If you read the entire Old Testement, you see that the entire lot of Israel had a hard time keeping this law, and thus proved that works alone could not earn eternal salvation and that is when...

Christ came on the scene, He fullfilled the law. Christ taught forgiveness and mercy. Turn the Other Cheek, is actually to another brother. It is in truth speaking to Christian and Christian, in order to keep harmony in the service, but we can extend it to others. In other words, instead of seeking vengence, you should seek offenders salvation... Of course, the Bible teaches you to obey the laws of the land, and if that person disobeys, such as stealing, murder, he is still to be punished for his crimes.

All Christ wanted was for people not to hate and have discord amonghts themselves.

[Darth Cluich]

Thank you, JLR, for ruining my perfectly unbiased explanation. :p

[J.L.R.]

Thank you, JLR, for ruining my perfectly unbiased explanation. :p

Actually I had just punched the send button, when I got an e-mail revealing your responce. Your's was actually more to the point than mine was....

You know Cluich, you almost sounded like a Sunday School teacher...:D

har har...

[LV426]

Very intersting. So then where did the Muslims get "Sheitoun" from? Is it not where the word Satan is derived from (not unlike aljibr = algebra, jamel = camel, sukkar = sugar, etc.)? It had to have an origin somewhere, and since Judaism, Christianity and Islam have some common ground...

:shrug:

It's Cheitan and not Sheitoun I believe.

Cheitan (Shee-Tan) is the name of a demon or Djin born of fire and smoke . This was taken later and used as a term for Satan because of the whole Fire and smoke detail. It had very little to do with Islam and Christianity to begin with but like many pagan (non-christian) beliefs they were absorbed into the culture and beliefs of the major religions to make change easier on those who were more traditionally bound in myth and folklore type belief systems.

Oh and this little tidbit was all in my brain btw, I actually was researching demons the other day and found out this info. Amazing that just as I need the resource I am directed to it beforehand.

[SubSteel]

What about angels they arent with out sin they have killed coutless i mean if you research them you find out that they have killed milliions of peeps but it was called richeous.

[Darth Cluich]

You know Cluich, you almost sounded like a Sunday School teacher...:D

har har...

You can laugh all you like. :p Not to sound like a braggart, but I've found I know the Bible better than most self-professed "Christians." Even passed an exam once that's given to those aspiring to be Presbyterian ministers. I missed none on the Old Testament section and only a couple on its sequel. ;)