Double Standards

[Xzengrim]

Okay... Get this: My sister's boyfriend just decided that God had spoken to him in a dream and told him to leave her immediately and go to a seminary in California. He's leaving her here with an apartment she can't afford, a houseful of crap she can't use, and quite a bit of expense. Now she's in debt, and has to move back into our parents' house. BTW, she's totally happy about this, because GOD said it was to be so.

This is what I can't stand. If you have a dream about sailing around on a lake of purple gravy, people say that dreams are funny that way. If you have a dream with Jesus in it... oh miracle of miracles! It's a religious vision! Let's stop doing whatever we were doing and begin praising immediately!

Screw them! If I were to live out my dreams, I would be running around on all fours and biting people. They'd call me a damn mental case and lock me away! But this was the Glory of God in a dream!!! Let us give praise! My idiot sister and her dick boyfriend can do whatever the hell they please, because GOD told them to do it! It's a shame, I tell you.

Next time some born again tells me he heard the word of God in a dream, I'm going to haul off and bite him in the face! That'll show em!

[J.L.R.]

Okay... Get this: My sister's boyfriend just decided that God had spoken to him in a dream and told him to leave her immediately and go to a seminary in California. He's leaving her here with an apartment she can't afford, a houseful of crap she can't use, and quite a bit of expense. Now she's in debt, and has to move back into our parents' house. BTW, she's totally happy about this, because GOD said it was to be so.

This is what I can't stand. If you have a dream about sailing around on a lake of purple gravy, people say that dreams are funny that way. If you have a dream with Jesus in it... oh miracle of miracles! It's a religious vision! Let's stop doing whatever we were doing and begin praising immediately!

Screw them! If I were to live out my dreams, I would be running around on all fours and biting people. They'd call me a damn mental case and lock me away! But this was the Glory of God in a dream!!! Let us give praise! My idiot sister and her dick boyfriend can do whatever the hell they please, because GOD told them to do it! It's a shame, I tell you.

Next time some born again tells me he heard the word of God in a dream, I'm going to haul off and bite him in the face! That'll show em!


What denomination are they?

God doesn't talk to people threw dreams anymore. He doesn't have to. When Jesus Christ left this world, he gave us the Holy Spirit (the Day of Pentecost). Of which dwells in our hearts. God talks to me all the time, though sometimes I turn my heart radio on too loud.

[Xzengrim]

THey're in one of those non-denominational youth group Neo-Churches. You know those weird A-Team type things? Some kind of born-again thing. I wouldn't know. I don't go to church.

[J.L.R.]

THey're in one of those non-denominational youth group Neo-Churches. You know those weird A-Team type things? Some kind of born-again thing. I wouldn't know. I don't go to church.

Born Again thing? I'm Born Again, and that diffenently does not sound like something I would do. Besides, don't knock it until you try it. God has never failed me, and He has always provided for me, even though I sometimes can be a walking error factory. As Scripture says, His mercy endureth forever.

Truth be known, your Sis, sounds like she is in some modernistic church bullcrap, where they believe in everything but what the Bible says. Non-denominational usually means, they don't stand for anything, other than annoying me. It usually these types that get into emotional frenzies everytime a music group or movie comes out that they think is wrong. Right now we have some yahoos gripping about The Lord of the Rings. I've known too many of these mental cases, and usually when you confront them with the Bible, they stick the tails, between their legs and run away, because, of all the things they read and listen to, the Bible usually isn't one of them. Of course not all non-denoms are bad, just I've met some rather bad folks, who spend more time griping and nitpicking about everything, instead of watching their own lives, and living for Jesus.

God doesn't reveal things through dreams anymore. It always amazes me that these freaks, like Joses Smith, who say God has given them a revelation of some sort, that that revelation always is contrary to Scripture, and always puts "man" in front of God. These people are dangerous, for more often than not, it is THEIR will be done, other than God's will.

Anyway........

[Hellcat]

Okay... Get this: My sister's boyfriend just decided that God had spoken to him in a dream and told him to leave her immediately and go to a seminary in California. He's leaving her here with an apartment she can't afford, a houseful of crap she can't use, and quite a bit of expense. Now she's in debt, and has to move back into our parents' house. BTW, she's totally happy about this, because GOD said it was to be so.

This is what I can't stand. If you have a dream about sailing around on a lake of purple gravy, people say that dreams are funny that way. If you have a dream with Jesus in it... oh miracle of miracles! It's a religious vision! Let's stop doing whatever we were doing and begin praising immediately!

Screw them! If I were to live out my dreams, I would be running around on all fours and biting people. They'd call me a damn mental case and lock me away! But this was the Glory of God in a dream!!! Let us give praise! My idiot sister and her dick boyfriend can do whatever the hell they please, because GOD told them to do it! It's a shame, I tell you.

Next time some born again tells me he heard the word of God in a dream, I'm going to haul off and bite him in the face! That'll show em!


Dammit, are you telling me that when I dreamt that god told me to macerate my husband and articulate his skeleton I should have gone ahead and dunnit? Shit man, am I to late? MWAHAHAHAHAHA human skull here I come, god said so :D

Just kidding

[Xzengrim]

Yeah "just kidding" you wish...

But anyway... I don't know what kind of church it is, although I DO remember that it's Christian. That, and they hate the Catholics for some reason. I don't really know why. SOmething about how most established churches were corrupt and wrong, and they were supposed to spread the word of God because this generation we're all in now was going to be Called to the Rapture. On account of how Israel has become a nation, and all that is Prophecy. Although I must observe, that being as that happened in 1947, it's been two generations, six decades, and half a century, and nothing has happened yet.

But I've met a number of these strange church people that she brings home, and so far I haven't met any of them who have read the entire bible. And THEY'RE Jesus Freaks! I'VE read the bible, and I'M a bitter atheist! Oh well. I just don't like them.

[GhostBat]

Sorry J.L.R., but I can knock Christianity pretty well; I have to read the damn bible every day :p Not saying it's bad, but it's just not for me :shrug:

[McKitty]

And neither is it for me. I'm Jewish ...well ...a very LAXED Jew because my life has been one string of badness after another (my cousin of only three years died in a drive by shooting because the shotter thought it was his friend's car and thought it'd be a good joke) and then people tell me that God has a plan and all that ...I prefer being spiritual to not believing in anything at all. Then again, this new attitude came up suddenly over break.

I feel that God has chosen me to be his chosen joke of the year.

[GhostBat]

I believe organized religion was created for power, control, and money, and am surprised it has lasted for so long. I have my own beliefs. I don't need anyone or anything to tell me what I believe.

[LycanSpectre]

I believe organized religion was created for power, control, and money, and am surprised it has lasted for so long. I have my own beliefs. I don't need anyone or anything to tell me what I believe.

Ditto.

I have read the bible several times (old and new testament). I found that I prefered to make up my own mind about it and its teachings, rather than have someone preach at me and tell me what it meant. (As the church I was attending at the time was doing.) I prefer to think for myself, thank you very much.

[LycanSpectre]

So Grim... You had the purple gravy dream too eh?

[McKitty]

So Grim... You had the purple gravy dream too eh?

You guys too? Geez, how many of us are there? :beerchug:

[J.L.R.]

True Christianity, when taught as according to the Bible, can never be used successfully as a means of control, because with real Christianity, it is all up to the person. Christianity is a personal relasionship with Jesus Christ. You can read the Bible every day, but if you don't have a personal relationship with Him first, it will mean nothing to you. It is just words, written by a lot of people a long long time ago.

However...

Knowing the Author and His reasons though, changes the perspective and thus gives understanding where, understanding lacked before.

So, no one can force you to believe. You have to choose that yourself, just like any other choice you make in life.

The church's function, as I've said, is not of power, but of security. A true church is a family, and is run in much the same way as a wolf pack would be run. You have leaders, who are the elderest and wisest, but each member has a perpose and a plan.

McKitty, I understand your feelings, but God never promised us that our lives would be easy or that bad things would never happen to us while in this world. He did, however, promise, that he would always be there for us, through thick or thin, and believe me, he has never ever let me down.
He does have a purpose for everything, but we can not always see that purpose, because we can only see what we are seeing at the since of the now, but he sees everything, for He is the Author of life. Just because I am a Christian, doesn't mean I will live a long life, with out trials or pains, but I know I can trust Him to always be there, even with my life is in its darkest hours.

Now Brian (Xzen) that is your name is it not, as for prophecy, you know your prophecies well. And you are right it hasn't happened yet, and yet many of the Biblical prophecies have come to pass, save the rapture, but Jesus Christ told his disciples that nobody knew with this event would take place, not even the angles, only God alone. He did say it would happen in a time when nobody would suspect, "as a theif in the night." Then after the rapture, God will usure in the Great Tribulation... Of course you mentioned reading Revelations, so I don't need to go into all of that.

Well Ghost Bat, reading the Bible does not give you credit to knock it, if you don't believe it. If you haven't accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, how do you know, that what I am saying is false?

What if I am right?

If I'm wrong, well I am happy, and delusional...crazy maybe, but alas I am happy and quit content, as I will be the rest of my life. What do I loose?

But if I am right.........

[GhostBat]

If you're right than all of us "non-believers" go to hell :D I'm sorry but the church thing I still don't believe. Even Jesus didn't believe in churches, and going to church. He preached outside, because he said God was everywhere, since He did create it. Though, if it brings you comfort and security, all for the better ;) But it just pisses me off :shrug:

[Xzengrim]

Wellnow! My general statement on God is the same one I reserve for lycanthropy. WHile I would be greatly pleased if it DID exist, as of yet I have not seen sufficient data to warrant a belief in it. I've got nothing against God... I've just never met him myself.

That, and although God DID promise to kick you in the nads whenever he feels like it, it seems that he also promised you three hots and a cot, if you stick with him. Not His words explicitly, but the Bible seems to be of the message that if you stand by God, everything will turn out right in the end. The fact that that does not seem to be so also pisses me off: I mean, when bad s**t happens to me for no reason. they say you've got a friend in Jesus... but I wouldn't treat a friend like that!! Not to mention the fact that (as espoused by the Great George Carlin) God seems to be the ultimate deadbeat dad. And don't try telling me that God is in the hearts of the children, or in a beautiful sunset... because that's just not going to cut it! But now I'm rambling.

ANyway... Revelations is a good read if only for its entertainment value. It's full of monsters and creepy stuff and s**t blowing up. It's scary and awesome! YOu should all read it.

[J.L.R.]

No, Ghosty, you precious bat you, Jesus was against ritualism, meaning that people were so consumed with the "idea" of worship, that they forgot the reasons why they worship. If Christ was not for the church, why did Christ toss the money changers and merchants from the temple. You see the Pharisees and Saduccees were so consumed with the practices of their faith, the rituals, and all that they were leaving out the whole important reason for the worship, and that is God's Love, for his people. Besides the Bible states that Christ died for the church, meaning his believers. When the Bible speaks of the church it isn't talking about buildings, it is talking about people, gathering to build each other up in the Faith. When Christ spoke about His death and reserrection, he spoke of His Temple (meaning body) being destroyed and then He rebuilding it again. A church is the body of Christ.

Xzen, there is no where in the Bible that God says when you become a Christian, that suddenly the red carpet rolls out, and flowers appear, and your whole world becomes perfect. Now God does take care of His believers. He promised me, in the scriptures, that I would always have food, shelter, and clothes... Now that does not mean, that I will always have the food that I want, nor the clothes that I want, but I would never go without. I haven't, and boy I have gone through some serious crap, but God has always been there for me. Also, why would you expect God to do anything for you or anyone, if you refuse to believe in him and trust him? Think of God as a man, who is holding his hand out to you, for you are hanging on a cliff. You have to put your trust in God and take His hand, for once you put your trust in God through the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ, God will NEVER let go.

[GhostBat]

I'm gonna exit this discussion before I get frustrated and go on a rant :p

[J.L.R.]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton Son, that whosoever believeith in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

God has given man a free will. In doing so, we can make the choice of following God or not. This world is condemned because of sin. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that there is something wrong with people, the length of the Annoyed with Humanity thread, is proof of that. It seems people are destined to destroy each other and everything around them. The entire Old Testement was God's plea with His chosen people the Hebrews, however even though he preformed maricles and wonders, and did all sort of good things for them, they still rejected him, just as Adam rejected God's first commands. God is infinitly merciful. The Scriptures says, His mercy endureth forever. He fullfilled His promise through the birth, death, and reserrection of His Son, Jesus Christ. The Hebrews still rejected Him though. Why? At this time in history, the Jews were under Roman control. They wanted the KING Massiah, and not the servent Massiah that was prophecied to come first, as spoken of in Isaiah 53:3 - 7

"He is despised and rejected of me; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him, he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitton of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All We like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."

This prophecy was written 500 years before Christ walked this world.

When the Hebrews finally rejected Christ, God opened his covenant for the Gentile races.

And thus the Age of Grace opened up.

Now honestly with the way I've seen churches run today, I can understand why people don't like them. You have a lot of hypocritical people who do nothing but gripe about everybody else, and not look to their own personal lives, but why should that affect your faith in God? Not every church is like those. Mine sure isn't.

People do bad things because God gave them the free will to do so. We all have the right to do good or evil. However, we also have to face up for those actions. One reaps what one sows.

[blueeyes]

I don't think it was God that gave man freedom of choice in the Bible. See, you need to know what is wrong in order to do it. That gives you more choices, and therefore, not only more wrong choices within your ability, but more good ones as well. Everything else just acts.

"Only humans ate from the Tree of Good and Evil..."

Does that leave you people better off or worse?

X: why do you care? People get what they want, eventually. When this man realizes that he's just following the tail end of a hangover, he'll learn what he's lost (Not to attack devouts here, but I can't see any god requiring someone to go to California, unless it's preperation for a short trip to hell). Your sister has been saved from a man who might not have been the best match. Things work out. Maybe "God" is doing them a favor in a roundabout way.

Or things might just be ****ed up. Anyway, he follows his dreams, he's got freedom of religion on his side. You or I don't. We follow our dreams, we end up in a mental hospital to keep ourselves safe. A looney bin is better than a death of starvation or a very unpleasant thud.

[J.L.R.]

Wellnow! My general statement on God is the same one I reserve for lycanthropy. WHile I would be greatly pleased if it DID exist, as of yet I have not seen sufficient data to warrant a belief in it. I've got nothing against God... I've just never met him myself.

That, and although God DID promise to kick you in the nads whenever he feels like it, it seems that he also promised you three hots and a cot, if you stick with him. Not His words explicitly, but the Bible seems to be of the message that if you stand by God, everything will turn out right in the end. The fact that that does not seem to be so also pisses me off: I mean, when bad s**t happens to me for no reason. they say you've got a friend in Jesus... but I wouldn't treat a friend like that!! Not to mention the fact that (as espoused by the Great George Carlin) God seems to be the ultimate deadbeat dad. And don't try telling me that God is in the hearts of the children, or in a beautiful sunset... because that's just not going to cut it! But now I'm rambling.

ANyway... Revelations is a good read if only for its entertainment value. It's full of monsters and creepy stuff and s**t blowing up. It's scary and awesome! YOu should all read it.


What werewolves don't exist?! oh well, I guess I can forget about getting a pet one...darn...I got the food and water dish too... oh well... I was going to call him Carl and everything....darn.. ..

Xzen have you read the book of Daniel? There is a story of a lycanthrope in it...ooooh werewolves in the Bible....ooooooh
King Nebuchadnezzer was a lycanthrope...(menta l illness though)
I think the story is in the 4th chapter of Daniel, in case you want to look it up.

Also I think it was St. Patrick who turned an entire town into wolves, when they were making light of a religious holiday. They remained wolves for 7 years, and on the 7th year they would become human only long enough to celebrate this holiday. I guess you could say they learned to really honor that day.

[Wraywolf]

Sounds like a very entertaining work of fiction. :)

I insult people because of my own insecureities...

[DarkWolf]

I think JLR's God-preaching is making me sick....

Sorry, I'm normally open-minded... but personally the whole God thing of christians/catholics/et cetera, sickens me.

[J.L.R.]

I think JLR's God-preaching is making me sick....

Sorry, I'm normally open-minded... but personally the whole God thing of christians/catholics/et cetera, sickens me.

Really, well here's a barf bag... :D

Why? Why does what I say sicken you?

Is there really a reason, or is it another half baked, I hate Christianity because so and so is a hypocrit, or I don't like what they worship concept that I have heard repeatedly on the site, and yet when it all boils down to it, it normally has nothing to do with actual Biblical doctrine, but just the old fact that you don't like it. That is fine, absolutely fine. You can believe whatever you want. We all have that choice.


I have the right to defend what I believe. I have the right to correct a misconception, or answer a question about Christianity. If I would have stated something errorneous about something you believed in, I wouldn't expect anything less. I haven't started, You are going to hell, threads. All of my posts in this manner have been to create understanding in what and why I believe what I believe. Is that wrong? So A, I am not preaching, and B. If you don't like it, why in the world did you read it, or even for that matter post?

[McKitty]

You were preaching. You told me to basically accept the crap in my life because "God has a reason for it".

Well, for starters I wasn't whining, pardon me for being a little depressed that an innocent 3 year old was shot to death because a kid thought he was playing a game with a buddy. Where, pray tell, can I find any reasoning in that? I also have a lasped faith not because my life "isn't easy" but because of some personal demons that have plauged me for a while.

J.L.R, you have every right to believe what you want but don't you dare try to make us see the error of our ways because we happen to believe otherwise then you.

Oh, and to however said that the Jews didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah because he was a servant was wrong. Jesus, to us, was the last Phrophet before the Messiah. It's in the teachings and the Torah.

[McKitty]

...And now that I've calmed down a bit, I apologize for my snippy attitude. Religion is a touchy subject for me since I've grown up around religious fanatics of all religions and I am of the mind that everyone is allowed to believe what they want to believe.

Also, your comment about God has a reason for everything kinda struck a nerve. I find that a buch of B.S and that stems from my Grandmother being the only member of her family to survive the Holocaust ...needless to say, she's a VERY lasped Jew and that feeling towards God passed down to me.

Again, I try to keep my temper in these arguements but then again, I am only human

[J.L.R.]

...And now that I've calmed down a bit, I apologize for my snippy attitude. Religion is a touchy subject for me since I've grown up around religious fanatics of all religions and I am of the mind that everyone is allowed to believe what they want to believe.

Also, your comment about God has a reason for everything kinda struck a nerve. I find that a buch of B.S and that stems from my Grandmother being the only member of her family to survive the Holocaust ...needless to say, she's a VERY lasped Jew and that feeling towards God passed down to me.

Again, I try to keep my temper in these arguements but then again, I am only human

Oh don't worry, I'm no saint either. I do my fare share of ranting, so I don't take offence.

I understand, I tend to not explain things more, as I should, for then it wouldn't be as confusing. Look, I doubt God intends for bad things to happen, but we are also in sin (Christianly speaking that is). We reap what we sow... that sort of thing.

It is like this...

In Oklahoma we have terrible tornadoes. Last year, we had a twister come down right near where I lived. The storm happened to take out an entire church, a fundemental church at that. When interviewed, a reporter asked him, Why would God, allow such a thing to happen?" Of course the Pastor said that God knows what is best...

Howere I see this differently...

You see, Tornadoes have been in Oklahoma, long before people settled there. When my families moved here, they knew the risks. Tornadoes happen here all the time, often causing millions of dollars in damage, and sometimes death. Should we expect God to stop all the tornadoes, just because we moved here? No... The same thing with volcanoes, earthquakes, and any other natural disaster. We know the risks, and we take the risks. Our lives our in our hands and responsibility.

The same thing with human nature.

I would go on, but my brain is shutting down, and I am affraid that I will say something stupid...sorry...
:cool:

[McKitty]

...Actually, that's just Mother Nature and a church to her is the same as a group of trees :)

[DarkHunter]

If all of the crazy notions of Christianity, Catholicism or whatever else is right, I'm going to Hell. Yeah for me. Me and the Devil will throw a party when we get there and there'll be beer for everybody. Because, ponder this, if the Devil does rule over hell and is evil why would he torture those evil. It'd be smarter to slowly gather these people up over the millenia and if this being is old as is said then he should be smart enough to do this.

Personally, Christianity is too corrupt anymore to warrant any truth of the world. No one honestly reads the Bible but the non believers. Mostly for entertainment.

[McKitty]

My favorite line is Heaevn doesn't want me and Hell's afraid I'll take over. Yes, that's right, FEAR the Lord Catnip Hippie!!

[MidnightPsi]

If all of the crazy notions of Christianity, Catholicism or whatever else is right, I'm going to Hell. Yeah for me. Me and the Devil will throw a party when we get there and there'll be beer for everybody. Because, ponder this, if the Devil does rule over hell and is evil why would he torture those evil. It'd be smarter to slowly gather these people up over the millenia and if this being is old as is said then he should be smart enough to do this.

Personally, Christianity is too corrupt anymore to warrant any truth of the world. No one honestly reads the Bible but the non believers. Mostly for entertainment.


Maybe the devil just gets a kick out of torturing people. :droolbloo

[ArcaneWolf]

I look at history for proof and I've seen plenty enough from the past and present to make me think most Religion=Death & Hate. Modern Religion isn't for me and I particular don't like the Jewish/Christian/Islamic belief systems. These systems have failed becuase of monetary greed, making sexualitly seem evil, and pushing false guilt upon people. Giant engines of Hate and Death is what these are.

-I sit at home and turn on the tv watching Jerusalem Burning-

[J.L.R.]

Arcane this is where you are wrong, and by looking at it that way, will always be wrong.

If you take Christianity, for example, according to its Biblical context, it isn't about Death/Hate. PEOPLE, on the other hand, have a way of shoving in a little bit of their own personal convictions into the faith, and we all know that personal convictions placed on the wrong things is dangerous. I have several friends who are Islamic, and none of them are terrorists nor adhere to the extremist thinking of terrorism. Islam when practiced, as its context says, is not a radical death-dealing vice of human hatred.

Don't blame the faith because somebody decides to screw with it for their own personal use. Look at history, everytime Christianity, Islam, or Judism, has been used as a message of death, 90 times out of 100, the message that they are saying is actually contradictory to what the faith teaches.

Humanity as I've seen, during my life on this planet, is very gallable, many times believing somebody, just because they say things that they like to hear. That is why people like Hittler or Osama, as well as the Roman Catholic clergy could brain wash people.

I don't in no wise, condone the things people have done in God's name, for I know historically many many evils have been wrought, but what I am saying is, if those people, had honestly known God in the first place, they couldn't do the things they did.

Well here is my Biblical proof as to why the Roman Catholic church had no right, nor any Christian for that matter, to harm anybody...other than for the cause of war...

John 3:16 - 17

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world, to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

If God didn't condemn humanity, then by whose authority do these people condemn humanity?

[blueeyes]

Wouldn't that leave us with the ideas that religions, although not themselves evil, can be very easily used as such?
You're using the same argument anit-gun control.

[J.L.R.]

Wouldn't that leave us with the ideas that religions, although not themselves evil, can be very easily used as such?
You're using the same argument anit-gun control.

EXACTLY!!

But that is with anything. Guns aren't evil. They themselves can't do anything, but it is the person weilding it, who ultimately decides whether to protect or harm, to do good or bad. Same thing with McDonalds. McDonalds food isn't bad, but over-eating it is. People have the right to do good or evil in any situation, with any situation, but that is left alone to the person to decide and thus face the ramifications of his or her actions.

Gun control laws are wrong, because they don't solve the problem, and in fact they more or less infringe on the rights of people who are responsible.

If we start putting stop signs on everything just because a few choose to be stupid, then we ruin the reasons we have freedom. We revert to a communist gov't where the government, or a select few, decides what is right or wrong for a nation, and in the end it would be no different than the Roman Catholic church of old.

In a survey conducted a few years back, in fact it was for Easter of 2000. A religion columnist found out that people who regularly attended church, seemed to be living longer healthier lives. When a church if functioning right, it is a healthy stable enviroment, however, as Arcane pointed out, Modernists have made it an organization, and thus the reasons for the church no longer function, and it is just a social get together to spread gossip, and whot-not...

[blueeyes]

Somehow my lifespan isn't going to be affected by my lack of beliefs.

I personaly find guns evil. Not because they allow people to kill, but because they do so without requiring strength or preperation from the person who fires them. They allow people to kill in a way that is clean and simple.
It makes it easier. Just as McD's allows anyone who can stand their food to become fat without having to cook it themselves. It doesn't mean either should be sued, but it does put them at fault.
Just as the Christian church allows people to do things, bad things, without working hard. Religion makes a wonderful excuse.

[J.L.R.]

But you see humanity as a whole is religious. Everybody believes in a god, whether it be the Christian God, or themselves. This is historical, depicted even to the earliest of human histories. Our beliefs my be elaborate, or they may be simple, but still it is a part of us, because unlike other animals, we question our existance.

The error in your reasoning is, you are putting blame on things, instead of human nature. McDonalds makes its food tasty. If it didn't, people wouldn't buy it. That is just plain stupid and poor marketing to do it any other way. If people eat too much, who's fault is it? Is McDonalds forcing them to eat their food? No... Ultimately the responsibility lies on those who choose to eat or not to eat.

We as a race have to be responsible for our actions. It is not a gun manufacturers fault somebody takes his weapon that millions of others have baught and are responsible, and uses it to kill somebody. It is that individuals fault. Well look at this, let's say that same individual didn't use a gun, but instead used a 9-iron to beat somebody to death. Is it the 9-iron golf club manufacturer's fault that his clubs were made hard? Of course not.
Is it a van manufacturer's fault that Timothy McVeigh used his vehicle as a bomb case in the 1995 Murrah Building bombing in Oklahoma City? No...

The blame will always, and should always be placed on those who do the crimes, to say other wise is ignorant, and a most unfortunate falisy.

A man with wicked intentions will use ANYTHING to get what he desires, whether it be faith, guns, food, our people. He or she is the one to blame.

[blueeyes]

Would the man have tried to kill anyway, if it required a 9 iron? How many people would get mugged when guns weren't used by muggers? Knives would still be a problem, but many wouldn't be willing to push a strip of steel down through skin. As for McVeigh, I'd blame the person who let him get his hands on all that fertilizer for making it easier. It's still his fault.
I will admit that in each and every case it is the fault of the people who do something wrong; the men with the bombs, guns, crosses, and Happy Meals. However, from what I know, it is the thing which makes the event possible. There are few violent crimes where guns and knives can't be used. When people have to work for their food and cook it, they don't end up with as much lard as a ton of butter. Without the excuse of the Bible and a call from God, Popes would not be able to call down crusades. And men would have one less way to forgive their crimes. It is the religious that knows he or she is unique, one of a kind, so therefore so much different from the people around. Those who do not believe they are unique, that a pile of trash can have just the same properties, see the similarities between themselves and other men, and can not see the forgiveness of some diety falling down upon them.

You've been interesting to talk to, and hard to dechiper. Hobbsian or Lockian?

[J.L.R.]

That's a good point, but a murderous heart is a murderous heart, regardless of what they use as a means to translate their vengence. Missinterpreted faiths, often fall victim to such monsters, who meld their own personal vendetta's with scriptures and fancy speeches. The audience of such people, are usually illeterate or disperate individuals, who are looking for an excuse for the problems they are in.

That is why people like Osama bin Laden, Adolf Hittler, as the many hundreds of evil people through out history got such a following. They speak to people who are ignorant (not stupid, but unlearned).

I agree words can be a weapon of mass destruction, but ultimately those words have to have a speaker and a mind to weild them.

Christianity speaking, since that is the only one I can honestly vouch for, right now, you are tought to respect people, to love people for who they are, and treat them better than you treat yourself, aka, the Life of Christ, however, as I've seen, the newer modernistic movement has left out the strong teaches of studying the Bible, thus leaving people open to lies and those who would lead them astray, such as Jim Jones. Knowing what you believe is important. The problem in the Roman Catholic Dark Ages, was that a few crooked ungodly men, were running the church based on what THEY thought was right, instead of what the Bible said was right. Also note, that many of the witches and werewolves that were accused during this time, were in fact protestants or Bible translators, who the church feared as a threat to their "holy" practices.

You really can't hate a faith because somebody misuses it, because people will misuse anything and everything.

[blueeyes]

I thought that protestants didn't come along until after the invention of the printing press, which would have defined the end of the Dark Ages. Doesn't matter...

Great evils are great evils, and I am not qualified to even start thinking through the causes of people like Hitler; they did not have to justify their actions to themselves, if only because they avoided the blood themselves or stopped caring after the first murder. I am instead talking about the smaller crimes, people who only take out a few hundred people in their lives or only steal money numbering in thousands. Unlike Hitler, these people take only crimes of opportunity, not to sate their ideology. However, they find things opportune because they see all people as targets.
Nobody likes to kill someone that they've never met before, but religion can make it that a little easier. And don't forget the people who only have power due to religion and misuse it. It is because of those people that religion tend to be bad, and why controls are not optional.

I don't blame Christianity for the evils of man, and the words of god aren't what make everything in the world go wrong. I only have Christians to blame for a gunshot wound and a whole lot of lesser problems.

[ArcaneWolf]

J.L.R, there's nothing really you can say to change my mind. You might think I'm wrong and I might think your wrong, oh well. Fact of matter is I oppose Christianity/Islam/Judaism. It is my enemy and I wish to destroy it anyway I can. I don't care if you think I'm ignorant, it's just what I think. I feel no remorse for a destroyed church.

and since you seem to love quoting from the Bible, I'll quote from my own sources of liteature:

Götterdämmerung (Twilight of the Gods)-
"Wir sind Götter (We are gods)
Gott ist der Mensch (god is man)
Sein ist die Hand die schaft (his is the hand that makes)
Sein ist die Hand die verletzt (his is the hand that wounds)

Götterdämmerung!

We are gods, God is man
His is the hand that makes, his is the hand that wounds!

As I behold your crucified lord
It is pity I feel not a sign of purification
And yet it are millions taught by his word

Die Götterdämmerung ist hier!
(the twilight has come)
Die Götterdämmerung ist hier!

A universal message of love
Lessons for the world to be clear
But I sense megalomania in his word
Dogmatic, based on fear

Die Götterdämmerung ist hier!
Die Götterdämmerung ist hier!

Like the word taught in that other book
By some other prophet born in the East
Screaming ‘jihad!!’ Lifes they took
On the non believers corpses they feast

Not that Jahweh offered the other cheek
As he so firmly told his followers to do
Too many sacrifices in His name
Far too many lies not to look through

And here I stand alone in the night
No god or master above me
Do I suffer from this lack of divinity

Faith, my dear friend, can be splendid indeed
A force to hold on when the feeble soul bleeds
Religion served to the masses
Might be a dangerous seed
Forced down your throat
The last thing a free man needs

I walk a lonely path
Am I so blind to see?
At least I can say my soul is free
And my only god is me...

We are gods, God is man
His is the hand that makes, his is the hand that wounds!
We are gods, God is man
His is the hand that makes, his is the hand that wounds!"

[J.L.R.]

Actually Arcane, I think you are foolish, and misplacing your rants. You pass blame on Christianity, when it is human nature to blame. Also note, bigger, smarter, meaner, people than you have tried to destroy the church before, and it is still here.

Peoples and governments have tried to wipe us out before, but in advercity we grow.

Now don't get me wrong, I have no ill-mind against you Arcane, but I do think you are barking up the wrong tree, and it isn't a matter of me thinking you are wrong, it is a matter of you ARE wrong. I am a Christian and have been one for 12 years now, and I do not think anything like the ways you say we think. I've read the Bible several times, not just once, but many many times. Jesus doesn't condone people to hurt other people. In fact He commands us to love others, even our enemies.

Now I will agree there are people, churches, ect. who have twisted my faith to suite their needs. There are people who have used the Word of God to do unbelievably horrible things, by taking scripture out of context, but is it God's fault people are still rebelling against Him?

Being of fan (Well sometimes)... to Techno/Industrial/heavy metal, I am immune to lyrics like that. :)
Also, the Bible's passages have been here for thousands of years, and have historical accuracy to support them. Lyrics like that as well as the message they bring, will do good to be here 50 years...well unless they are sung by Elvis, but hey....

[DarkWolf]

I'm sort of in agreement with JLR about his latest point: Religion isn't evil it is the people who use it who are. Like the gun isn't evil it is the person shooting it...

I don't like religion, I don't like the idea that people feel the need to find the strength from faith in something so contraversial, when you can find all the strength you need looking back at you from a mirror. I see it as a weakness: but that is my opinion.. if it makes you happy - congratulations I wish you well. Just don't preach it to others (yes JLR you were preaching, intentionally or not [preaching: "To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with"]). I tire of hearing the name Jesus, I tire of walking down the street and seeing people bellowing out about it or seeing fliers on noticeboards or seeing the annoying adverts. Everywhere you go a religion is thrown at you. If you like it: fine, but why don't religious people realise their religion is not "the truth" or "the right way" - there is no right way! Accept it. My opinions on religion will never change, I see it as a weak excuse, but that is me. If I find a religious person I will not try to advocate being an atheist, likewise, I don't want them advocating their deity. I have a person who I gain strength, courage and hope from. One who gives me the power to live and the determination to succeed in life and that person is me: I need no other. My pet peeve about religion is that it is so pushy so traditionalised.

When somebody promotes religion so much I want to gag. But if somebody came up to me smiling today and said they now have strength for life, I'll be happy for them. Present your faith, but don't promote your religion. There is a difference.

JLR: I read this thread because it started off as somebody complaining about the religion: not the faith the religion! Then it became you preaching, and so I posted my dislike in hope it'd get you to think about what you're doing.

Belief and faith are one thing, religion is another.

[LycanSpectre]

I'm sort of in agreement with JLR about his latest point: Religion isn't evil it is the people who use it who are. Like the gun isn't evil it is the person shooting it...

I don't like religion, I don't like the idea that people feel the need to find the strength from faith in something so contraversial, when you can find all the strength you need looking back at you from a mirror. I see it as a weakness: but that is my opinion.. if it makes you happy - congratulations I wish you well. Just don't preach it to others (yes JLR you were preaching, intentionally or not [preaching: "To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with"]). I tire of hearing the name Jesus, I tire of walking down the street and seeing people bellowing out about it or seeing fliers on noticeboards or seeing the annoying adverts. Everywhere you go a religion is thrown at you. If you like it: fine, but why don't religious people realise their religion is not "the truth" or "the right way" - there is no right way! Accept it. My opinions on religion will never change, I see it as a weak excuse, but that is me. If I find a religious person I will not try to advocate being an atheist, likewise, I don't want them advocating their deity. I have a person who I gain strength, courage and hope from. One who gives me the power to live and the determination to succeed in life and that person is me: I need no other. My pet peeve about religion is that it is so pushy so traditionalised.

When somebody promotes religion so much I want to gag. But if somebody came up to me smiling today and said they now have strength for life, I'll be happy for them. Present your faith, but don't promote your religion. There is a difference.

JLR: I read this thread because it started off as somebody complaining about the religion: not the faith the religion! Then it became you preaching, and so I posted my dislike in hope it'd get you to think about what you're doing.

Belief and faith are one thing, religion is another.

Ditto.

[J.L.R.]

I'm sort of in agreement with JLR about his latest point: Religion isn't evil it is the people who use it who are. Like the gun isn't evil it is the person shooting it...

I don't like religion, I don't like the idea that people feel the need to find the strength from faith in something so contraversial, when you can find all the strength you need looking back at you from a mirror. I see it as a weakness: but that is my opinion.. if it makes you happy - congratulations I wish you well. Just don't preach it to others (yes JLR you were preaching, intentionally or not [preaching: "To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance with"]). I tire of hearing the name Jesus, I tire of walking down the street and seeing people bellowing out about it or seeing fliers on noticeboards or seeing the annoying adverts. Everywhere you go a religion is thrown at you. If you like it: fine, but why don't religious people realise their religion is not "the truth" or "the right way" - there is no right way! Accept it. My opinions on religion will never change, I see it as a weak excuse, but that is me. If I find a religious person I will not try to advocate being an atheist, likewise, I don't want them advocating their deity. I have a person who I gain strength, courage and hope from. One who gives me the power to live and the determination to succeed in life and that person is me: I need no other. My pet peeve about religion is that it is so pushy so traditionalised.



Well Dark, has it ever occured to you that we might actually believe that what we have faith in is true? Do you actaully believe that we are that stupid just to believe in myths?

I mean, I don't neccessarily like evolution to be flung at me everytime I watch DSC or The Science Channel, and yet it is. While some of the work they do is true science, there is a whole lot of loop holes that are never dicussed. I'm not against evolution in any way, it is a way of interpreting data, however, there are other ways. The very heart of evolution is doctrinal and religious, but then again, we all are religious in some way or another, for we are all human.

I can't say that I am right, because in all honesty, I won't know until I'm dead.

Also, I might of rambled on and made a two paragraph explanation into a 30 page thesis, but my true intentions, was not to make you believe Christianity, but understand what the difference is in true Christian worship and the false variations that abound all over today.

In short, and in summery, of which if I had thought of it then, instead of now, I could have saved a MEGA theoligical thing here.

In short I just wanted our dear Mr. Xzen to know, that according to the Biblical texts, God does not talk to people through dreams anymore, nor does He give signs. His messages are revealed through His word, and most importantly God never sends somebody to do something contrary to His word, like leaving Xzen's sister with all those bills and such. If some "Christian" says that God gave them such and such a vision, they are not playing with a full deck, and or mostly likely lieing their butts off. Well that is a summery of what I probably should have said at the beginning...

Sorry Dark...writer's curse... :) (That's why we write several revisions, so we can actually get one that says what we want to really say)

[DarkWolf]

By truth I mean something that cannot be argued to any full extent. What you believe in is NOT truth, hence why it is called FAITH. You may think it is true, but in all honesty, it isn't: otherwise nobody on Earth would be able to say it isn't true.

Terminology, look it up.

[ArcaneWolf]

Actually Arcane, I think you are foolish, and misplacing your rants. You pass blame on Christianity, when it is human nature to blame. Also note, bigger, smarter, meaner, people than you have tried to destroy the church before, and it is still here.
Being of fan (Well sometimes)... to Techno/Industrial/heavy metal, I am immune to lyrics like that. :)
Also, the Bible's passages have been here for thousands of years, and have historical accuracy to support them. Lyrics like that as well as the message they bring, will do good to be here 50 years...well unless they are sung by Elvis, but hey....

I rant when I hear/see preaching. All im saying is when ever I have the opportunity to oppose christinaity, without breaking the law of the land(or getting caught), I will. My hope is that it just dies out and I realize a "War against christianity" wouldn't work. It's just when I hear preaching I begin thinking off doing anything blasphemious I can.

I'll tell you this, hypothetically if god appeared to me now and said he'd forgive everything I've done if i just accept him, I'd spit in his/her face and just walk away.

About the lyrics, I'm just sick and tired of people posting quotes from the bible. Hell maybe I'll quote from the satanic bible just for fun if it keeps up. Or satanic metal bands, Xzengrim would at least support me :D

[LV426]

Responding to the original post by Grim I was wondering if it is possible that your sister's boyfriend is merely using the God excuse in order to leave a bunch of debt behind and start anew without your sister. I mean it is possible that he is a crack head and believes that god spoke to him but I find it more likely that he is just using her faith to go do what he wants without any repercussions from her.


Responding to that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" I think that the bullet probably had something to do with the death. I mean a person holding up their finger in the shape of a gun and saying "BANG" is not going to cause someone to die unless of course they had an extremely weak heart. The problem with guns is that they enable murder to be committed from afar and with little to no effort. A gun means that someone can kill a person and not even know who they are killing. Guns are highly impersonal. I think that there would be fewer deaths if people were only able to use hand to hand or melee weapons to kill instead of firearms. It takes more guts and energy to kill someone and see their face and their eyes and know that you are going to take their life than it does to pull a trigger. Guns aren't evil they just make it easier to kill whether it be animals or people.

Now then religion. JLR, you are preaching <<smacks you with a newspaper>> stop it.

It's one thing to have one's beliefs. You can believe in whatever deity you want, but when you insist on advertising your religion on billboards and handing out pamphlets and bibles to people in order to get them to join your church, that is wrong. My sister goes to college in Missouri and in the quad they have a group of various christian denominations that hand out pamphlets and Bibles and when someone refuses they get rather insistent and force the pamphlets and bibles on them. The people who don't want it then toss it on the ground or in the trash and go on about their day. Wasteful isn't it. Passing out millions of trees to people who don't want to know about a god they don't believe in onlly to have them end up as litter and trash.

I was out of town recently, I went to a small town in Missouri with a high Southern Baptist population. In fact my grandparents and aunt and uncle are Southern Baptist. My grandfather was dying and so the members of his congregation decided to visit him on his death bed and so I played hostess to all of the people that came to visit. Some were family but most were strangers. The minster brought laughter to the house which we sorely needed. He made my grandfather smile one last time and gave him the comfort of faith. I do not begrudge him that. He was a devout christian and he followed the teachings of the religion. He never judged and even if he didn't agree he never spurned someone because they didn't believe what he did.

I can't say the same for his fellow parishioners. For Brother Harris, one of the Deacons that was visiting decided that he needed to save the rest of the family and basically that meant me. I, trying to ease the burden on my grandmother was playing hostess and as she and this deacon were sitting around the table with coffee and carrot cake, he decided to ask me if I was saved.

My response was polite (for a change) and I explained that I did not believe in his god and that I had my own beliefs. My grandmother who really wishes I was a christian, asked me to sit and listen to Brother Harris. Brother Harris told me a story about how he went every day to a man that was dying from cancer and badgered (my word not his) this man to accept christ before he died or else he would go to hell. Now in this man's eyes he was doing a wonderful thing and bringing the word of the lord to a dying man, but to the man that was dying he was simply harrassing him. And even when he asked Brother Harris to leave, Brother Harris refused and continued to preach about this man and his sins and how this man must accept christ.

Now this story was supposed to encourage me to convert apparently but I was not swayed and I would have been more agressive with him had my grandmother not been sitting there. And in his efforts to convince me that I should convert and repent and all that other crap he tells me that I am going to go to hell.

Now I had been up every day taking care of a grandfather who was so weak and sick that he couldn't move without great pain, a man who was days away from dying and I was there to watch him slip away. If you ask me, that is pretty much hell. So while I am in this hell this fanatic fucktard decides to tell me I am going to hell because I don't believe in his god.

I was saved by the bell. The phone rang and my grandmother left the room. And although I couldn't quite vent my entire spleen on him I did berate him for coming into my family's house and condemning those of us who didn't believe as he does to hell, when there is a man dying in the next room. I quietly told him that this was not the time or the place and that he was out of line and I left the room and went for a long walk.

Now I figured he got the point and I told my dad not to let that man back into the house but he got past my dad when my grandmother answered the door the next time he visited and he deliberately sought me out to tell me that he was praying for me and he hoped that I would turn to christ before it was too late. Now my aunt and my dad and my uncle were all a witness to this particular display of his and they promptly asked him to leave and not come back.

So you see there are some really good people who make really good christians, but there are also some pretty hideous people and they make hideous christians.

Oh and I did let him know that if I was going to hell that I would save a spot for him.

[LycanSpectre]

LycanthropicHowl, if I hadn't maxed out my reputation points for the day, I would give you one. But since I did, it'll wait for tomarrow. :)

Anyhow, I think you handled that prick pretty well. I hate it when people dont practice what they preach. Especially when they feel that they must preach to me. :mad:

As for those bibles they hand out.... I have something like 6. Around here, even if they already gave you one, they give you another next time you walk by. The volume of waste that they generate is apalling. :rolleyes:

[ArcaneWolf]

:: pats LycanthropicHowl on the back:: you truely are the voice of reason here on this board. And I comend your politeness towards that deacon, while he acted like a total jerk.

[LycanSpectre]

Here is some food for thought: Christianity claims to be the only way to "salvation" and that thier God is the one and only God, Creator of heaven and earth, blah blah blah.

So if another religion claims the same thing (one and only god, etc), doesn't it follow that the two separate religions are worshoping the same diety? I mean, as far as I can see, the only difference is HOW they worshop. Even polytheistic religions can fit this idea... Just consider the differnt dieties to be different manifestaions of the same God.

If the differnt religion agree that there is only one god, how can they say that the other god is invalid? They can't! I mean, sure they can SAY it, but how do they KNOW? Where is the proof? Its all just a difference of custom. Group A's custom is to worship one way, Group B's custom is to worship in a completly differnt way, but they both agree that there is only one god. How can they say the other is wrong?

I doubt that God (or whatever name you give your diety(s)) is as closed minded as most religions claim he/she/it/they are. I think it's the humans hiding behind the "holier than thou" facade they have given their god who make religion so closed minded.

I just dont understand how people can hate other religions so much, when the only difference is custom.

[blueeyes]

LycanSpectre, do you mind fixing your sig? Believe.

Anyway, JLR, you'll see that the pagans preach back here.

[LycanSpectre]

LycanSpectre, do you mind fixing your sig? Believe.

Ill take it under advisement. :)

[J.L.R.]

LycanSpectre, do you mind fixing your sig? Believe.

Anyway, JLR, you'll see that the pagans preach back here.

Pagan? Whose a pagan? I didn't say pagan.. :D Me me Meggan, I said Meggan...er never mind that was dumb... oh well...

Honestly, look, I am not here trying to tell you that you are wrong to believe in whatever you believe in. My intentions have been to correct misunderstandings or misinformation about Christianity. I mean if I said all Wiccans are witches, (Of which I know they are not), I would get a reply telling me why what I am saying is wrong, and I'd have to respect that, since I am not a Wiccan nor a Witch. Shoot they'd no more about it than me, since I know nothing of either. I know more about the Christian faith than you do, since I am a Christian. I know what I believe. My responses have been to posts that are saying or making Christianity something it isn't. If my intentions have been unclear, then I apologize, because I didn't really want to preach to anybody, just inform, to gain understanding.
I understand there are jerks out there that have used and will use my faith as to way to control or manipulate a situation, but that is in all walks of life. I had a Biology Professor in college that took up my entire class time, telling me how stupid we Christians were for not being athiest. He was getting ready to retire, and I guess he was venting out a lot of kept in emotion, but honestly I don't think we got to the 3rd chapter in our text books. I passed his class, but not by much. Of course, out of respect I let him rant, since it was his class, but alas, It was difficult, so yeah I understand how you feel.
Also I know there are "Christians" out there that treat people badly. I should know, I had an old bitty at my old Christian school. She gave me a lecture because I drew a picture of a dragon. I got the whole dragons are of the devil speech. (She's was wrong, and I should have said then it fits you then, but I didn't). I was in the class once, listening to the score of Jumanji, and she was so horrified by its "demonic" tones, that she made all the other students leave the class room. Yeah, I never got along with her. Let's not get into the You shouldn't watch Buffy or play MK speeches either, and yet, and YET, this same old crone was one of the meanest, most hateful, most horrid people in that entire church! She was an awful woman. Simply awful. Talked terrible to her husband, and started gossip and rumors against that church's pastor, because he wouldn't bow down to her! And she calls herself a Christian?
Well then, if you've met Christians like that, then I do apologize first hand, because we are not all like that.

Now Arcane, I honestly don't know why you hate Christianity so much? I really don't... but honestly holding that much contempt for anything is surely not a healthy way to get around it. Go beat your pillow or something soft, until the anger subsides, before you go hurt yourself, because, honestly it ain't worth it. If Nero couldn't wipe us out, I doubt you will be able to, besides give it a few years, and our faith will probably outlawed anyway, so hey...

[ArcaneWolf]

It's just what I think and feel. I think God is fake and a lie that humans use to bring about the worst things on this earth. All together humans are terrible things. Very few of us should be allowed to exist. We've destryoed each other and this earth more then can be forgiven.

Christinaity won't be outlawed, esp. not in America. It might be not allowed in a public scene of promotion of it, but by the same rules neither can any other religion.

To truely get an idea of the sources for my ideology It's to long to fully explain right here on this board (actually it probally isn't, but I don't feel like explaining it now :p ). If you can look up a book called "Lords of Chaos", might be at a local library or somewhere.

[Wraywolf]

For me, I always thought of any religion, not just the Christian one, as ways for people to limit the thought of other people, therefore making them easier to control. Most religions say any other religion or interest in anything not in line with the teachings is evil and should not be allowed. In other words, close your mind to anything but this way of life and do not listen to anything that may convince you otherwise. Stupidity and ignorance make people very easy to control, as you can see from past instances of the catholic church when it was in full swing.

And I don't like anything that tells me how I should live life or burn in hell. From what I see all the cool people are going to be in hell. Rockstars, Fantasy authors, hot men with very low standards... Sounds like Heaven to me!

Plus, church is boring and makes you get up early on Sunday. Come on, that's evil all on it's own!

[LycanSpectre]

I agree.