Homosexuality/Bisexuality a sin?

[Were-E-Wolf]

I'm out looking to see what your guy's opinions on Homosexuality and Bisexuality are. Many say it is wrong. Others say it isn't. People who are of these two sexual orentations are condemed and have been murdered, epecialy here in America. I am putting this as a post to see you opinions. PLEASE NO FLAMING! Do it on your own time. I only wish for others to share their opinions on the subject and if the poster is either one of these they can share their thoughts on how others react to them and what made them discover their sexuality. If you are bais against them suck it up and leave them alone in the fourm or in PMs. I'll post my opinion later and my 'story' to being bisexual.

(I attempted to edit the title to "Is Homosexuality/Bisexuality wrong". Unless someone can find a way to change this I can't do anything about it. However this topic has nothing more to do with sin, it is now whether Homosexuality/Bisexuality is wrong or not and whether you are one and if you wish to include your story to realizing this.)

[Ender]

Why didn't you post this in religion?

[Were-E-Wolf]

Why didn't you post this in religion?
Simple, more people check out the Mis. posts and not the religion ones. I go to the Mis. posts everyday and rarely the religon one. And since when is this all about religon. The only thing religon has to do with this post is if you think it is a sin or not. Besides that it's just a post for people to be open about their sexuality and their feelings towards other sexualitys besides hetero. In my opinion is should be here, not in religon.

[Sorrowsong]

I'm out looking to see what your guy's opinions on Homosexuality and Bisexuality are. Many say it is a sin. Others say it isn't. People who are of these two sexual orentations are condemed and have been murdered, epecialy here in America. I am putting this as a post to see you opinions. PLEASE NO FLAMING! Do it on your own time. I only wish for others to share their opinions on the subject and if the poster is either one of these they can share their thoughts on how others react to them and what made them discover their sexuality. If you are bais against them suck it up and leave them alone in the fourm or in PMs. I'll post my opinion later and my 'story' to being bisexual.


I feel somewhat awkward in replying to you with my opinion since you already know what it is. But I suppose I'll share it for the sake of telling others. I am a lesbian, as I've probably stated a number of times on this site, or maybe only once or twice. I don't know, I haven't really kept track. Being a lesbian, one can assume that it's a given that I'm for homosexual rights. Well, they would be right, I am.

As for bisexual people, they're great people! Honestly, they are. Everytime I hear a homosexual person condemn a bisexual person because they "can't choose a side" or whatever the reason is, I can't really accept the fact that they would say something like that. Shouldn't the homosexual person have some empathy for the bisexual person? After all, they went through a similar transition when they found out they were gay. But apparently that isn't the issue.

It's wrong to assume bisexual people will do anything they're stereotyped for. For example: Having multiple sexual partners. Well, I know plenty of breeders(straights) who have had multiple sexual partners, but that doesn't mean that all breeders do that. It just means they're jerks :P. I've dated four bisexual girls, not a single lesbian. I'm currently dating the most recent of those four, and she doesn't fit anywhere under the stereotypical bi.

Yea... that was my two cents... :shrug:

[Ender]

You can not put threads of different subject matter in forums with more traffic to get attention. If the subject matter of threads interests people, they will read and post.

Positions on sexual preferences, sinful ideas, and religion in general should be discussed in Religion, why we have it here.

[Were-E-Wolf]

You can not put threads of different subject matter in forums with more traffic to get attention. If the subject matter of threads interests people, they will read and post.

Positions on sexual preferences, sinful ideas, and religion in general should be discussed in Religion, why we have it here.
Since when does sexual preference have anything to do with religon exsept for when it is called a sin? Does that not justify it? It has nothing to do with religon what so ever. It is Mis. because there isn't any other place to put it, it doesn't belong in religon because it ISN'T a religon. And if it were to put it in religon it would be bashed till the cows come home and most likely only people that think it is a sin will get to it and call it that. There are more opinions to be found here that are widely viewed. Please leave it where it is, as I said, the only thing it has to do with religon is if it is a sin or not, I'm also asking for opinons, what people sexuality is, and their back storys to finding that they are gay/bi or coming out. It's isn't JUST about it being a sin or not.

[Ender]

Sin:

1.A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
2.Theology.
A.Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
B.A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.
3.Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.

Dictionary.com - http://dictionary.reference .com/search?q=sin

Sin is directly related to Religion, more then Misc Disc at least..

[Sorrowsong]

You can not put threads of different subject matter in forums with more traffic to get attention. If the subject matter of threads interests people, they will read and post.

Positions on sexual preferences, sinful ideas, and religion in general should be discussed in Religion, why we have it here.

Sexuality preferences don't necessarily have anything to do with religion. Yes, it is apart of religion, but so are many other things that are posted in the Mis section. I don't understand how sexual preference fits under the Religion section. Were is only asking for opinions of others, whether they're based on religion or not. Some people who focus on their opinion WILL be based on religion. However, others may not. But sexuality itself is not religion, unless you worship the fact that you're straight (assuming you are.)

Just leave the thread here. It's not hurting anyone.

[GhostBat]

I myself am straight, but I see nothing wrong with homosexuals. Many a time in my private Christian school I have heard that it is a sin, and I find that complete bullshit.

"God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Evan."

If I hear that one more time, I swear...

Getting ahold of myself...I'm sure homosexuality is as natural to some as heterosexuality is to others.

To add a slightly more scientific side to this, in the book "Mapping the Mind" by Rita Carter with scientific advisor Christopher Frith, a short blurb was written, as seen here:

Is there a 'Gay Brain'?
In 1991 the prestigious journal Science published a study showing that the brains of a group of homosexual men who had died from Aids were structurally different from the brains of homosexual men. The nucleus in the hypothalamus that triggers male-typical sexual behaviour was much smaller in gay men and looked more like that in the brains of women. The author, Simon LeVay, then Associate Professor at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies and Adjunct Professor of Biology at the University of California, was immediately attacked by gay activists who feared that the recognition of homosexuality as a physical-based condition might lead to it being re-stigmatized. LeVay, who is himself gay, then went to discover that the corpus callosum differs between gay and straight men, to - in gays it was found to be bigger. Three years later a study led by molecular biologist Dean Hamer of the National Institute of Health in Washington, DC, found evidence to suggest that a specific gene - carried on the maternal line - influenced sexual orientation in men. Put together, these studies provide strong evidence that homosexuality is rooted in biology - and hostility to the idea has largely disappeared.

If this is fact, then homosexuality cannot be considered a sin, for they have no "choice," Like heterosexuals have no "choice" to be attracted to the other sex.

[Were-E-Wolf]

Sin:

1.A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
2.Theology.
A.Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
B.A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.
3.Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.

Dictionary.com - http://dictionary.reference .com/search?q=sin
Okay, so how do I change the title and erase SIN from my question. This post is more than just about sin, if you haven't noticed as I have stated for the third time now. I would like to see backround storys and opinions, not just whether they think it is a SIN or not.

[Ender]

Edit button- http://www.werewolf.com/vb/images/edit.gif (http://www.werewolf.com/vb/editpost.php?do=edit post&p=29893)

[Were-E-Wolf]

Edit button- http://www.werewolf.com/vb/images/edit.gif (http://www.werewolf.com/vb/editpost.php?do=edit post&p=29893)
Thank you, now will you be happy and quit thinking it should be in religon when everyone seems to agree it should be left alone? well, everyone so far exsept you... Hey are you just in a bad mood or something? Usaly you are a nice guy, never thought this would rub you of all people the wrong way.

[Wraywolf]

I am quite willing to admit that I am still in the middle of puberty, and that any revelations about my status as a sexual being are subject to change with the blink of an eye, but as of now it does not seem likely that I am heterosexual or even bisexual.

I’d be lying if I said I was never attracted to women. During the first subtle steps of puberty, I was attracted to women because I felt obligated to be, and I did find their bodies attractive, for a young boys sexuality is almost never focused or in control, and if put in the right context can be aroused over any random object. However, my attraction to women was dwarfed by my fascination with the male gender. While females took the role of objects of lust, males were beings that held something that drew me. And because they were forbidden items, I only grew more intrigued.

They say homosexuality is a choice, or that it is something that develops due to certain childhood experiences, usually because of the lack of a strong father figure. I don’t deny that I lacked a father figure, and I don’t deny that my childhood wasn’t exactly typical, but the ‘typical’ childhood that is viewed is not so typical anymore. You’d be hard up to find any individual who has lead an utterly ‘normal’ life, indeed the idea of normal or ordinary has been realized from works of fiction, fantasy scenarios that hardly ever play out in reality. TV sitcoms illustrating the true essence of a perfect family life and even the problems that should insue. Boy’s first date, girl’s shyness at asking the cute football played to the dance, and nothing taboo is ever committed, all fallow the basic formula and unsure you that anything else is taboo, is unusual, is wrong.

I don’t know myself well enough to say whether sexuality is something preprogrammed, or an entity that develops within us, feeding on stimuli like a growing plant feeding on nutrients from soil and sun, but I do have the strong belief that it isn’t something that can be rerouted or changed without a great deal of self deception. It would take me a whole other life time to change who I was at heart, which is where our libido resides. Our sex drives are something that encircles us all our life. In our prime, there is hardly an hour of our existence in which we do not hark to the subject, if just in a fleeting remark of fantasy. To change such a vital essence of our personality takes the effort and careful situational expose that can never be realistically synthesized. Sexuality isn’t a pliable element, it’s something that just happens. Like human beings themselves, they can never be controlled down to the letter.

But, is it wrong? No. To me, it is not wrong. I simply do not understand it, Nor do I understand the hate people bare for it. It makes me think back to the texts of history books, regarding the rights of African Americans and Women’s Rights movement. The world is changing, and over the edge hang people that grip onto what they know with eyes closed and their ears shut, gritting there teeth and shouting and cursing the immanent fall into the unknown as society itself clings to their feet. Change is not an easy thing for humanity, especially those of us who are so often frightened and unwilling to listen to the voices of the unknown, but one way or another, things change. In this very moment, in the time you have spent reading me ramble on, people have died, people have been born, people have realized something, and another unorthodox Idea has been condemned.

So what kind of world I’m I falling into as I let go of the edge and look into the last advancing abyss? What new world awaits me, and everyone else? I don’t know, but clinging to that edge was very hard and I am tired, and this fall is pleasant, at least to me. Now, I can relax my muscles, instead of using them to try and embrace fast deteriorating ideals. I look to the bottom and I smile, because weather I sink or swim, I enjoyed this moment right now. That matters to me the most.

What’s now.

[Ender]

I'm in no mood. Mods keep the boards in order, this thread belongs in Religion considering the subject matter, it is in Misc however, therefor it is out of order, my Mod senses are tingling, so I'm saying it should be in religion to rectify the problem.

[Were-E-Wolf]

I'm in no mood. Mods keep the boards in order, this thread belongs in Religion considering the subject matter, it is in Misc however, therefor it is out of order, my Mod senses are tingling, so I'm saying it should be in religion to rectify the problem.
I still disagree about it being in religon, but I guess arguing with a Mod. is useless and can only lead to more misery. I think they are tingling because you think a huge flame war will start. But that is just me, I said we wait and see if you get seconded on this. If another Mod. (maybe Chris) agrees, just go ahead and move it.

[Invisibleu]

I'd just like to pipe up here that I (and many others) take offense to the term "homosexual". Homosexuality is a disorder or disease or condition. Being Gay is not. it's the same as calling a Therian a Werewolf.

[Ender]

I don't mod this forum therefor I have no say in anything there goes on here.

In retrospect I think I put to much energy and time into this, chriz, skull cowboy, kat, LycanthropicHowl and to a lesser extent GothicRogue Mod Misc and one of them'll take care of the misplacement - Good night.

[Sorrowsong]

I'd just like to pipe up here that I (and many others) take offense to the term "homosexual". Homosexuality is a disorder or disease or condition. Being Gay is not. it's the same as calling a Therian a Werewolf.


Actually, it isn't necessarily a disease or a disorder. The disorder part is all based on opinion, really. Homosexuality has actually been proven to be genetic. Though, it may not be the only cause for it. I can't remember which chromosome holds that gene, but it causes the amount of hormones to be different than normal. ie: higher testosterone in women, higher estrogen in men, etc. To tell you the truth, there really is no such thing as a 'sexual preference'. It's just what you are, live with it. As for the differences in words, your statement is based on opinion since the word 'gay' was not originally intended for the definition it has now, even though it's now written in some dictionaries. The two words are different in your opinion, but not in mine, so therefore what you have said is not factual.

[Lost_Soul]

I'm thirteen, thus going through puberty and at this time my sexuality is still unknown of. I have absolutely no problem with homosexuals and bisexuals. I've never had to face any conflict over a friend that was one either.

Homophobia and genteic makeup is the cause of this idea that homosexuality and bisexuality is something of a wrong nature. The fact that the majority of people are straight is also a contibuting factor. If the odds were tipped do you think that it would be as widely a controversial topic, I think not. it's all a matter of personal opinnion.

I believe neither of these are sins. God is loving of everything he created. There is no reason a homosexual or bixesual should be condemmed by him if they've led decent lives. Why do people think God is a homophobic?...That's what people state when they say it's a sin...

[kat]

Like it or not, this belongs in religion.

Also, while I am an atheist, and I really don't give a flying crap about a person's sexuality (and I certainly don't want you to tell me), I am aware of Neo and Orthodox Christian ideals. In the world of Christianity, Homosexuality is more definitely a sin. The Bible is very black and white with that issue. That's just how it is. If you don't like it, change religions.

[Ben]

Homosexuality is more definitely a sin. The Bible is very black and white with that issue.
I have to agree with this statement. Homosexuallity in the old testament is the only sin that is not called a sin, but an "abomination". Pretty heavy duty. Apparently, in Christianity, nothing is more vile then a homosexual.

But...I'm not a Christian. I am a witch, so, personally, go for yours, whatever makes you happy. I believe that sex between consenting adults is natural. As animals can't say no, I do believe that bestiality is rape. I also believe in the death penalty for pedofiles, as they are uncurable & will repeat their crimes.

[Lost_Soul]

You know what, it's kind of hard to understand why the Bible states that. It goes against all that Jesus taught really since he had tolerance and love for everyone. The Old Testamant is not to be taken as a guideline either except for the Ten Commandments. I believe in a sense that the New Testament sort of changed some of the ideals. In the Old Testament, God was more of a wrathful God that didn't accept disobedience. The God of the New Testament is a loving God that doesn't care how you are, he is forgiving. Think of the name's of them, New and Old. They are not labelled as One and Two.
The word New suggests that it is fresher and clearer than the Old. Don't get me wrong, I realize it also means that it was made later, but think of something new. Such as a new and improved computer. The Old Testament does have a impact on Christianity, but the New Testament kind of changed the ideals. I think Jesus came to sort out the confusion of the ancient Jewish people, and thus showed the real identity of God. In the Old Testament, the writers may have seen something that wasn't how God really was or it related to the views of that time.

This is my own belief, and has no overall bearing among the Roman Catholic faith. I think that God may change according to the views of people at the time. In a way, I think God may be so connected to us, that he is what we want him to be.

[kat]

You know what, it's kind of hard to understand why the Bible states that. It goes against all that Jesus taught really since he had tolerance and love for everyone.

The love of a person and the tolerance of their inappropriate actions aren't the same thing. The problem is that people can't seem to separate the two.

[MetroSexual]

I'm bisexual and very happy with my lifestyle. I mentioned this on another board and was immediately attacked. What's in your heart decides what is sinful or not. Not your sexual orientation.

[Lost_Soul]

I just don't see why it would be a sin, it just doesn't seem right that God would punish someone for it. I'm Chritian, so I think I would know. then again, if God isn't really the creator, then I guess it doesn't matter. Either way, I'm gonna live my life without dislike for someone because of something that doesn't affect me anyway.

[kat]

Remember that "sin" and "sinful" are words created by the Christian church. Unless you belong to that church, it doesn't make much sense to apply "sinful" to yourself.

Not all that is "wrong" is a "sin", so don't use "sin" to suggest otherwise.

[kat]

I just don't see why it would be a sin, it just doesn't seem right that God would punish someone for it. I'm Chritian, so I think I would know. then again, if God isn't really the creator, then I guess it doesn't matter. Either way, I'm gonna live my life without dislike for someone because of something that doesn't affect me anyway.
Just because you don't understand why it's a sin doesn't mean that Christianity doesn't consider it to be one. I'm sure their response to a question similar to that would be, "Are you really questioning God? Who the heck are /you/?"

[Lost_Soul]

I'm saying this because from everything I've been taught by my teachers and priests I would have to say that God wouldn't punish someone for something of this nature...

[kat]

Then that's contradicting the very Bible that this religion is based on. Honestly, you shouldn't really rely on information from the hearsay than a textbook. That's like expecting to know Biology by listening to some guy on a street rather than studying a book.

The basic idea is this: God said not to pariticipate in homosexuality. If you were a Christian, you would listen to God rather than question him, because it isn't your place to question God. If you're going to be defiant against his word and go ahead and be homosexual, then you're consciously going against Him.

Makes sense to me. Like the child who steals the cookie while his parents are watching.

[Lost_Soul]

The people I've mentioned aren't just some people on the street. They are well educated people who've studied the Bible and understand the church's decisions. Things change over time. The Church isn't going to change what is in the Bible though it will change it's ideals...

[Xzengrim]

Well, I'm going to say that YES, homosexuality is a sin. And this is why:

THe church made up the doctrines, they decide what is and isn't a sin, and they said that homosexuality is a sin. I'm thinking... Leviticus 20:16 (for those who wondered)

But on the other hand, not everything that is a sin is wrong, if you ask me. That, and although homosexuality really creeps me out, I have to defer to logic and say that there's really nothing wrong with it. So although I personally would rather that all the homosexuals stuff themselves back in the closet; there's nothing I (or the Church) can do about it. So everyone go on about your business.

[kat]

Well, I'm going to say that YES, homosexuality is a sin. And this is why:

THe church made up the doctrines, they decide what is and isn't a sin, and they said that homosexuality is a sin. I'm thinking... Leviticus 20:16 (for those who wondered)

But on the other hand, not everything that is a sin is wrong, if you ask me. 10 points for Xzen for being logical and taking the words from my mouth.

[Lost_Soul]

Well if that's the way the Church thinks...then I believe the Church is wrong. Simple as that, it's my opinnion and none of you can change it.

Let me ask you, what is your personal view on Homosexuality and Bisexuality, kat? You may have already stated your view, but I'd have missed it then. Do you believe it is wrong?

[kat]

Well if that's the way the Church thinks...then I believe the Church is wrong. Simple as that, it's my opinnion and none of you can change it.

Let me ask you, what is your personal view on Homosexuality and Bisexuality, kat? You may have already stated your view, but I'd have missed it then. Do you believe it is wrong? Well, in my view of the world, there are few things that are most definitely "wrong" (ie, murder, lying, etc), otherwise I feel that whether an action is wrong is largely subjective.

If it's between two consenting adults, then I really don't give a damn. I will go so far as to say that I know it's contrary to Biology, and as such I don't think that a homosexual will experience the same relationship as a heterosexual (in terms of biochemistry only).

Blah blah blah, to be brief: I can't call it wrong. I can only decide that it isn't for me. What you want to do isn't my business, so don't make it my business.

[Lost_Soul]

Wow...for once I think one of the slighty debate-like conversations that goes on in these boards was actually solved. I feel so happy.

Anyway, I think most of the people on this site have a good sense of what's right and what's wrong. I'm interested Kat, do you know how many generations of your family have been Athiests, or are you the first?

[kat]

All I know is that my father's side is Episcopalian, and my mother's side is Presbyterian. I imagine that since my mother's side came directly from Ireland, that they were Presbyterian for a while. My mother remains heavily Baptist, while my sister moderately so. My father is Agnostic, and I am entirely Atheist, so I supposed that I'm basically the first.

[Lost_Soul]

Do you think that some of the moral values your parents most likely gave you were partially influenced by their faith?

[kat]

Do you think that some of the moral values your parents most likely gave you were partially influenced by their faith?

I've noticed that many of my values were arrived at by my own means. Perhaps my basic morals are the only ones influenced by my mother's pariticipation in religion, which I admit that I actually followed until a few years ago. I'm only recently Atheist.

[Lost_Soul]

That's interesting. Sorry if my question annoyed you in any way, I just heard an interesting thing that I'v ebeen trying to confirm for myself. I've heard that without religion that morals woulds be gone, like in nature where there is no real good or evil, only survival...

[kat]

I wasn't annoyed by your question. The world annoys me. ;)

While religion does do well to provide its society with a basic set of morals/rules to follow, I don't feel that a lack of religion would prevent the creation of rules. Religion is only belief in a deity/supernatural being(s), and only one way to live your life. There are other ways of life.

[GhostBat]

I agree with kat. I have grown up in an aethiest household, and am not lacking in morals or the distinction between right and wrong. If religion provides a sturdy foundation for such things to some people, all the better. However, I've seen many aetheists having a firmer grip on right and wrong than people of certain religions.

[Lost_Soul]

That is true of course, but if there had never been religion do you think that mankind would be so thoughtful for each other or as loyal? Sure you can say that you would be, but if you had never been taught that hurting someone for you own gains was wrong than would you still not do it. even today with religion people hurt each other. Think of it this way too, no other animals besides humans and ants wage war against each other either. odd thought isn't it. yes i think it has been proven that ants wage a sort of war, correct me if I'm wrong.

Agh...I'm getting off topic...

[DarkWolf]

Firstly, I don't see how they can say "homosexual brains are more like a woman's" (put simply) considering that while yes, gay men do act feminine, but so do some straight men, and some gay men are not only masculine but hate the gay stereotype (obviously I speak from experience, knowing several gay male friends (don't even bother joking on that one)).

Secondly, if they are harming nobody - "what business is it of yours" it is their life, let them live it.

If I'm just reiterating points, then take this as agreement, otherwise just think for a bit.

I wonder where the usual bible-bashers are right now? Normally they'd jump all over this.

[GhostBat]

When it's said gay brains are more like a females, they mean in the sense of sexual preference only, and the key parts related to such. Not the way they act.

[DarkWolf]

When it's said gay brains are more like a females, they mean in the sense of sexual preference only, and the key parts related to such. Not the way they act.
Ah, that makes more sense.

[McKitty]

To me, whatever you do in life, as long as it doesn't negatively affect yours or anothers life, by all means go for it. I currently (as in the last few months) just ended a relationship with a nice gal so I may just be all for it because it's what i do :)

[Were-E-Wolf]

I think all the bible-bashers/bible thumpers are still at church and having a fun time away from the forums. They may be doing something else, or they decided to leave this subject be (yay!).
Gay's brains are more like womens due to the exstra estrogen in their system making them attacted to men. As for lesbians beign closer to men due to the fact that they have more testosterone than most women. Same thing with bisexuals only it is less exstreme. I can't tell you what religous house hold I was raised in. My dad was Lutheren and my mom was Jewish, I just call my self an Atheist but she had a fit when I told her that. I'd say we were, or rather my dad was kinda philosipher like. Which I got from him. Yeah parents views in faith tend to influence these things, but is should be left intirely for the child to decide.
I do not think Homosexuality/Bisexuality is wrong. I my self am bisexual. Something I didn't know till I met the first person to tell me they were a lesbian. I was questioning before hand, but it realy hit me hard when I met her. Everyone is borne the sex they are, but I never discoved mine till fall last year.
I'm guessing it is consitered a sin because it is lust and not love to the Christians. Yet in my opinion it is love, because many don't seem to care about the gender of the person, it is for love and not sex like many staight people seem to do. Though I don't doubt this happens in every sexuality.
Just wondering, why do you guys think that some straight men don't mind two women dating, but dislike the idea of two men. I have a theroy, but I would like to hear your guys's opinions on this.

[kat]

Gay's brains are more like womens due to the exstra estrogen in their system making them attacted to men. As for lesbians beign closer to men due to the fact that they have more testosterone than most women. Same thing with bisexuals only it is less exstreme.

I'm sorry, but this is utter garbage. Neurochemistry isn't that simple. I don't care what you may have read in some rag magazine like USA Today, but I can definitely tell you that this is total garbage.

[Were-E-Wolf]

I can tell you for a fact that gay men have higher estrogen levels and lesbian women have higher testoserone levels. Everyone has a little bit of these chemicals in them. Some thing in your genes made it so the levels are more than they should be. If I found a web site saying that this is fact, maybe from Scientific American or any other mag like that would you belive me?

[kat]

Yes. You can't expect someone to listen to you if you don't have a source for your information.

By the way, I'm saying that to suggest that high testosterone levels in women causes homosexuality is inane and that there is no evidence to suggest such. In fact, there is no strong evidence anywhere to suggest that homosexuality is at all congenital. Correlation isn't causation. That's the law of the land.

[Sorrowsong]

Just wondering, why do you guys think that some straight men don't mind two women dating, but dislike the idea of two men. I have a theroy, but I would like to hear your guys's opinions on this.


Because the idea of two(or more) lesbians having sex turns them on. At least, that's what many of my guy friends have told me. They don't know why, it just does. Or maybe it's just because they want to join in.

[DarkWolf]

I'm in agreement with kat, I fail to see how the hormones can be plentiful enough to alter the brain, but not the primary targets of their effects which would be hair and reproductive organs.

[Were-E-Wolf]

I just pull out what every I could find on google that mentioned the subject.
http://abc.net.au/science/news/health/HealthRepublish_8922 29.htm - agrees with me
http://www.stopgettingsick. com/Conditions/condition_template.c fm/6850/69/1 - agrees
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0im1v/donettesteelepsychol ogy/id86.html - Disagrees but has interesting facts on other things as well.
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2003/03/25/story93076.asp - agrees, but has interesting insight to how lesbian's think some like striaght men and gay men think like striaght women.
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~mos/stats2000/results/fingerlengthrap.html - every woman check their ring finger, you could be a lesbian and not know it. My this is more interesting than studing Japanese. Why can't this be my exam.
Tis all for now...

[kat]

I just pull out what every I could find on google that mentioned the subject.
http://abc.net.au/science/news/health/HealthRepublish_8922 29.htm - agrees with me
http://www.stopgettingsick. com/Conditions/condition_template.c fm/6850/69/1 - agrees
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0im1v/donettesteelepsychol ogy/id86.html - Disagrees but has interesting facts on other things as well.
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2003/03/25/story93076.asp - agrees, but has interesting insight to how lesbian's think some like striaght men and gay men think like striaght women.
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~mos/stats2000/results/fingerlengthrap.html - every woman check their ring finger, you could be a lesbian and not know it. My this is more interesting than studing Japanese. Why can't this be my exam.
Tis all for now...

I'm going to go step by step by means of each link.

The ABC link: I'm going to ignore that it's ABC, and therefore a 3rd party source (a bad source). I would like to point out that the article itself says that "in the past 20 years, only 0.1% of published research was dedicated to the healthcare of homosexual individuals", which tells us that we frankly cannot sit here and say anything definitively about homosexuals, so just stop trying until more research is done.

Also, the article itself is focusing on polycystic ovarian syndrome, and not homosexuality. PCOS is an imbalance of sex hormones, and one of the features is "hyperandrogenism - an abnormally high concentration of male steroid hormones called androgens." It does not define if all of the lesbians in the study experienced hyperandrogenism, or if none of the heterosexuals experienced it. That's a huge flaw right there. Granted, a large number of lesbian women had polycystic ovaries, but I fail to see that as proof of anything.

Your second link deals with the same thing, PCOS. I can see a bad pattern forming. Heck, this one is just the same information. Bad form. No points scored.


The third link is a Verizon website, a personal website, and therefore is invalid as a source.

More later.

[kat]

Your fourth link has nothing to do with hormones at all, but rather how gender roles effect psychology. Definitely no points scored.

Your fifth link goes to an old article from 2000 that discusses the old debunked idea that finger length is influenced by levels of male hormone, or androgen, in the womb. The scientist literally did his study by means of finger length, rather than chemical testing.

I can't begin to say how bad that is in terms of following scientific method. What a nutjob.

[Were-E-Wolf]

Okay, maybe it's not true in ALL homosexuals, but is some cases it is true, maybe a majority of them. You can do your own research for now. I'll get back to doing some in a bit. But as I have mentioned I have exams coming up and need to 'study.' Yes this is a topic that interests me, wish I had more time to read about it, (with out my mom bitching about it). Only I'm more interested in passing and getting fair grades. I'll keep an eye on this place and read the posts, but hopefuly you won't hear from me much tonight. :wavey:

[kat]

Were-E-Wolf, you don't seem to understand that this "truth" cannot be true without defined evidence, and is considered false unless proven otherwise.

[DarkWolf]

I quite frankly cannot be arsed to read articles, so I'm going with what kat says.

Also:

If a lesbian is such because of higher levels of testosterone, why is that some women have been known to go through a hormonal sex change (injecting themselves with testosterone to grow facial hair, and so on) and yet, still remain attracted to men?

[GhostBat]

If homosexuality was the result of hormones, then lesbians would have more manly features as a result of the unusual balance of estrogen and testosterone, i.e. facial hair and other such things. Opposite for men.

[Were-E-Wolf]

Sigh, I understand that truth needs to have strong evidence, but I can't look it up right now. It is a Hypothisis, does that work? Hasn't been proven or not. Please, if you want to prove or disprove that theroy right now research it. And as far as I know my girl friend has slight manly features, if her exstra muscile has anything to do with it. If you can find any research on it please do put it up. If yah want answers, sometimes you have to search for them.

[MetroSexual]

To the poster who quoted Leviticus 20:16 - if you know anything about the bible you'd realize that the Law of Moses was fulfilled during christ's advent on earth. The old law was done away with. It's no longer valid.
homosexuality is a combination of behavorial and biological factors - I think the problem is that people confuse inherited traits with heritable traits. Not the same thing.
biologically speaking, homosexuality is a dead end. It is not a desirable trait in any species. The taboo of homosexuality may have started unconsciously to help keep the species healthy with a large gene pool to draw from. The less variety the more chances for genetic defects. Passing on the genes is a chancy business at best. Homosexual activity among a species doesn't help. :D

[LV426]

Man created god in his own image. Man wrote the Bible to support this god. Who is man anyway?

There are animals that have displayed homosexual tendencies so since humans are animals then I suppose it's just one aspect of nature.

What people do in their bedrooms is really no one's business unless someone is being hurt.

According to christian doctrine homosexuality is a sin. But what makes the christians so superior that they are allowed to make that judgement.

[kat]

Since "sin" is a Christian idea, I think that Christianity is just fine in defining what is a "sin" and what isn't.

[Lost_Soul]

Sheesh this is kind of gone off the edge. Everyone seems to agree on some that homosexuality and bisexuality isn't wrong unless it harms someone. Let's not get into aggitating people becuase of their religious stance.

[MetroSexual]

Let's not get into aggitating people becuase of their religious stance.

...or the lack thereof

[Lost_Soul]

I was trying to get at that too....I'm still learning the best ways to word my statements...

[Xzengrim]

Hmmm... Rereading this post, it has come to my attention that Wraywolf is GAY!!

Now, being the nice guy that I am, I will volunteer to dehomofy Wray, and turn him back straight. I have a plan for this:

First of all, I'm going to chain a nun to his legs. The nun will beat him with a ruler and tell him he's naughty whenever he gets caught looking at another male for more than a minute. That should have the religious aspect covered. He may develop a nasty and wrong BDSM attachment to nuns... but that's ...um... a step in the right direction?

Secondly, no more brunch. Ever! That, and he's probably eating too much breakfast sausage. ...That, or possibly not enough breakfast sausage. I'm not really sure.

And although I've never actually SEEN Wray, his wardrobe will be confiscated and replaced with a more masculine wardrobe in the fashion of Grim's own closet. Three pairs of jeans (in various states of decay), and twenty eight band tee-shirts, all in the color of black. He will get dressed in the dark (like I do), and comb his hair with a fork when he comes up for breakfast (not brunch).

That, and I also intend to expose him to massive amounts of manly death metal and apocalypse stoner doom thrash. Much Cannibal Corpse, songs like "She Was Asking For It", "I Cum Blood", and "Addicted to Vaginal Skin" that will tell him to like girls. This should also improve his disposition, as it has been my experience that "the gays" are usually WAY too cheerful for no reason at all.

Lastly, I have made some lovely spiked leather bracers, which will not only add to his thrash metal wardrobe, but will also keep his wrists secure and immoble (and not floppy).

I'm a nice guy.

[Xzengrim]

Oh yeah. The last part of my plan is to create some manga-style hentai, featuring semiclad and unclad anime women so unbelievably hot, that with one look Wray will grab his crotch and fall down and yell "Ow! My prostate!" It'll straighten him out faster than... um... something that becomes really straight, really fast (xfilthy joke deletedx).

[ArcaneWolf]

:rolleyes: :D oh vay....

Xzengrim you should know for a fact that death metal and spikes don't exactly get girls flocking around you (unless you find the mysterious and rarely metalhead girls). Most people in extreme metal are guys. And one can be gay and be in metal too ::cough:: rob halford ::cough::

[kat]

Yeah, because being sexually attracted to a cartoon is "healthy".

[Lost_Soul]

Umm....hmmm....I really have no comment except that it would seem you really planned that out, eh Xzengrim?...

[Blackjaguarkat]

I belivie that Homosexuality and Bisexuality are not wrong. It is the way in which a person recivies love. I myself have been struggleing with the idea of Bisexuality. I have had sexual encounters with both sexes over my 27 years of life in varying degrees. I have to admit I find some women attractive. Does this mean I am Bisexual?! I think not. Right now I'm Hetrosexual but if the right person came along I probably would turn Bisexual.
On the other topic of Religion I'm Wiccan so I don't belivie in "SIN" and all that other christian hoy-paloy. This is a free society. I do belivie that beastility and pedophilia are both wrong and thoes that do these two things should seek help from a professional.

[Xzengrim]

I feel that my plan is a solid one, and will work if it is given a chance. Anything with that many stereotypes included must be true!

That, and Arcane is right. There are a lot of guys in the extreme metal scene. But on the other hand... (falls down, foaming at the mouth, and begins kicking around in a circle, a la Curly from The Three Stoodges) ...Metal girls!!!!!!! Aaaaaarrgh so sexy! Sweet Angela Gossow! Aaaugh Goth girls are hoooootttttt!

On a more serious note (straightens tie)... although it IS a good plan, I was just kidding. In theory, Xzengrim loves metal girls. But in the real world, Grim has never loved anything or anyone. So you never know. Maybe Xzengrim is gay. I doubt it!! But you never know for sure until you see it in action. Or at least, that's what I think so far.

[Wanderer]

I could care less if someone is homosexual or bisexual.. they both have flesh and both bleed. Its thier life they can do what they want..

[Ben]

Firstly, I don't see how they can say "homosexual brains are more like a woman's" (put simply) considering that while yes, gay men do act feminine, but so do some straight men, and some gay men are not only masculine but hate the gay stereotype (obviously I speak from experience, knowing several gay male friends (don't even bother joking on that one)).


Actually...they are. I read a very interesting scientific report that explained how, "structurally", a gay man's brain is much like a woman's brain & vice versa. This article (http://www.narth.com/docs/bioresearch.html) seems to cover part of the topic. It mentions that the brain actually changes with use - actually becoming more masculine/feminine with time.

[Ben]

If it's concentual with another adult human, then, with harm to none: Go for yours!

[McKitty]

I can assure you that my brain is no less male then yours is female.

Honestly, my inclination towards the female gender is from too many horrible experinces with guys and nothing to do with my brain being more 'male' then 'female'

[kat]

Actually...they are. I read a very interesting scientific report that explained how, "structurally", a gay man's brain is much like a woman's brain & vice versa. This article (http://www.narth.com/docs/bioresearch.html) seems to cover part of the topic. It mentions that the brain actually changes with use - actually becoming more masculine/feminine with time. Ben, don't make posts in a thread if you're not going to read anyone else's. We already discussed that ridiculous notion and tore it to pieces.

It is garbage, by the way.

[Hellcat]

In regards to homosexuality, if the course of nature has permitted it to happen, then there is no right or wrong about it, it just IS- It's the opinion of the human individual that drives it into a pigeon hole of what's right or wrong according to (individual) moral standards. Who gives a damn whether its right or wrong if it's not hurting anyone? It's non of my business and personally I couldn't give a shit

[ArcaneWolf]

That, and Arcane is right. There are a lot of guys in the extreme metal scene. But on the other hand... (falls down, foaming at the mouth, and begins kicking around in a circle, a la Curly from The Three Stoodges) ...Metal girls!!!!!!! Aaaaaarrgh so sexy! Sweet Angela Gossow! Aaaugh Goth girls are hoooootttttt!


:D LOL, man. Yeah Angela is pretty hot. although a friend of mine saw her and Arch Enemy in concert and said she's rather short. Oh don't forget the girls in Lacuna Coil, Theater of Tragedy and other such bands. oh and the former female bassist from white zombie was SO HOT!!!!!!!

(my girlfriend is gone to smack my face if she reads this :( , oh well.)

ps... lost soul- your avatar is really cute!!! :)

[Wraywolf]

Maybe Xzengrim is gay.

If that is true then the homosexual community is twice as evil and four times as debauch then previously suspected.

Yeah, because being sexually attracted to a cartoon is "healthy".

I never said it was healthy. I'd be the last person to consider myself to be a healthy minded individual. The only person I have actually met to be even more deprived and insane then me is Grim. And maybe Ender. But mostly Grim.

[Hellcat]

Here's something for you all to chew on, I read it in 'The Guardian Weekend' August 18 2001, p43-47. According to this article the male (Y)chromosone produces a protein called Anti Mullerian Hormone- this prevents the developement of glands that would become womb and ovaries. Apparently the AMH protein can trigger off the mothers immune system which intereferes with the other process of the AMH protein (which is to switch on the chemicals that invovle masculinising the brain. According to the article, the more often her immune system is triggered by AMH, the stronger her immune responses become ie the more male babies she bares the stronger her immunity system becomes on the AMH protein of the male fetus, therefore the more older brothers an individual male has, the more likely that individual is to be gay. Unfortunately, it doesn't give an explaination as to why some females prefer female partners of male ones.

[Ben]

The articles that you have supposedly taken such a belief in are incorrect and not even conducted by an accredited medical community. Gay men do not have women's brains or vice versa. Kat pointed out that if you had read all of the threads completely then you would have noted that that particular theory had been rejected as irrelevant to the topic. I never said that they had the brains of the opposite sex. Just structurally similar.
I also said that I was replying to that one particular post, not the whole topic.
The reply to the whole topic was done in a seperate post.

[McKitty]

Unfortunately, it doesn't give an explaination as to why some females prefer female partners of male ones.

Most of the lesibans and bisexual gals I know (And I know about ....twenty-two, twenty-three including myself) choose a female partner because of one to two reasons:

1) Female friendship, if it's a true friendship, can have an aspect of a relationship. Since us gals like to pour emotion into everything we tend to 'love' our friends as it is. And some of them take that love to the next step. Others don't. If I did marry a guy, my closest friend will still always be one step closer to me then him.

2) Horrible experinces with guys. Okay, let's face it. MOST (not all) guys under the age of ...well, there's no age limit, are complete and utter jackasses and enjoy screwing a girl over and over again. After enough with the male sex, a gal might just drop the whole gender completely (not that I'm asaying girl's can't screw another over ...nasty catfights HAVE occured). I fall into this catergory because after a string of bad relationships and a nasty rape, I cast off guys for now, but seeing that I'm still young, I can't make that final yet.

[kat]

Most of the lesibans and bisexual gals I know (And I know about ....twenty-two, twenty-three including myself) choose a female partner because of one to two reasons:

1) Female friendship, if it's a true friendship, can have an aspect of a relationship. Since us gals like to pour emotion into everything we tend to 'love' our friends as it is. And some of them take that love to the next step. Others don't
I must contest that there is a difference between a friendly relationship and a relationship with sexual connotations. I guess that I'm just disagreeing with your opinion... but uh... I disagree. ;)

[Ender]

The only person I have actually met to be even more deprived and insane then me is Grim. And maybe Ender. But mostly Grim.

You are addicted to 'furry porn'. I am not.

Don't put me on the same level.

I've seen those screenshots wray, beastiality? What the fuck is 'bovien lovin''?

[Wraywolf]

I'm not the one who caved and bought an Xbox. Ha!

Oh... Wait that was Gabe, not you.

Your virginity is growing back. Don't tell me that doesn't put you on a certain level of insanity.

[Xzengrim]

"I never said it was healthy. I'd be the last person to consider myself to be a healthy minded individual. The only person I have actually met to be even more deprived and insane then me is Grim. And maybe Ender. But mostly Grim."

AAAaaaah! (Raises fists over his head) I win! I'm a cruel bastard and I hope everyone knows it.

Aside from that, who do you think you are Wray, to call me depraved, when your avatar is a gay werewolf's big gay ass? BWAhahahahahaa! Oh wait... (looks at his own avatar), as funny as I found that, Drip is a hundred thousand times worse than Buster Wilde, in any imaginable depravity. But then again, that's why I love him.

But at any rate... what's wrong with furry p0rn?

[McKitty]

I must contest that there is a difference between a friendly relationship and a relationship with sexual connotations. I guess that I'm just disagreeing with your opinion... but uh... I disagree. ;)
Oh, I'm saying that for some there is. With a few of my buddies there's nothing whatsoever sexual about it. Just remember, 'love' isn't just sexual. I can love my friends and never see them as a sexual hotness. ((I'm also talking about close friends, not just a group of buddies)) :)

[Wanderer]

Just remember, 'love' isn't just sexual. I can love my friends and never see them as a sexual hotness.

Amen. I love my close friends. Although, a couple of them, I see them as sexy :P

I really don't see what the big deal is about homosexuals, its thier choice. Its usually christians that make a big deal about it. Who cares what your god says, is he a human? I dont think so.. he doesn't know what its like to be one.

[kat]

Heh, McKitty, I was actually saying that love isn't always sexual and that the love between friends is anything but.

Oh nevermind.

[DarkHunter]

To each their own, I say. Doesn't exactly matter if its a sin or not because people will still be gay or bi. I'm straight, but being in teenage hell, i've had the impression I was bi.

Thank you and goodnight.

[GothicRogue]

Alright. I am a bisexual female, who doesnt believe in the christian god, let alone any other god. I dont believe in heaven, or hell, I dont believe in sin, I believe in stupidity. I dont judge evil or good, and I dont claim to be in the right about religious choices.

Gayness is fine. I find it funny that its been proven in science that homosexuality is a chimecal imbalence in the brain, and yet in the bible it states that if you are gay, you go to hell. So god selected a few million people to be gay and send them to hell? I think judging anyone based on sexuality, religion, or race is a rather low blow.

A comment from the peanut gallery

[RoseDemon]

:D LOL, man. Yeah Angela is pretty hot. although a friend of mine saw her and Arch Enemy in concert and said she's rather short. Oh don't forget the girls in Lacuna Coil, Theater of Tragedy and other such bands. oh and the former female bassist from white zombie was SO HOT!!!!!!!

(my girlfriend is gone to smack my face if she reads this :( , oh well.)

Maybe not... I kinda deserved that. :p

Back on topic... I'm all for homosexual rights. Love is love. What should it matter if it's between two guys, two girls or a guy and a girl.

[Dark_Hermit_Of_Legend]

I am a straight female who has been fortunate enough to make some really good friends. And guess what? Some were homosexual and bisexual. I have always thought a person should be true to themselves. I dont see why sexual preference is such a big deal. I have been surrounded by drag queens with tweezers in their hands looking at what used to be my bushman eyebrows and grinning victoriously. I know the drag queens out there are getting a kick out of that comment. I dont see Homosexuality or bisexuality as a sin. I just veiw it as normally as I do Heteralsexuality.

Now there may be some people out there thinking that I am going to burn in hell. So be it. I am not going to judge a person on their sexual preferences. I judge them by what I see in their heart.

[Okamiotoko]

We were talking about this in scripture class the other day, and my catholic religion teacher told me that the official church teaching is that homosexuality is not a sin, but homosexual intercourse is.

[Aquilan]

I'm out looking to see what your guy's opinions on Homosexuality and Bisexuality are. Many say it is wrong. Others say it isn't. People who are of these two sexual orentations are condemed and have been murdered, epecialy here in America. I am putting this as a post to see you opinions. PLEASE NO FLAMING! Do it on your own time. I only wish for others to share their opinions on the subject and if the poster is either one of these they can share their thoughts on how others react to them and what made them discover their sexuality. If you are bais against them suck it up and leave them alone in the fourm or in PMs. I'll post my opinion later and my 'story' to being bisexual.

(I attempted to edit the title to "Is Homosexuality/Bisexuality wrong". Unless someone can find a way to change this I can't do anything about it. However this topic has nothing more to do with sin, it is now whether Homosexuality/Bisexuality is wrong or not and whether you are one and if you wish to include your story to realizing this.)


If you don't think so, than neither do I. Sometimes I wonder though, why do some people care? :confused:

[MoJoMagic]

Alright. I am a bisexual female, who doesnt believe in the christian god, let alone any other god. I dont believe in heaven, or hell, I dont believe in sin, I believe in stupidity. I dont judge evil or good, and I dont claim to be in the right about religious choices.

Gayness is fine. I find it funny that its been proven in science that homosexuality is a chimecal imbalence in the brain, and yet in the bible it states that if you are gay, you go to hell. So god selected a few million people to be gay and send them to hell? I think judging anyone based on sexuality, religion, or race is a rather low blow.

A comment from the peanut gallery

i find it amusing that someone who doesnt judge good or evil thinks they can claim anything. in saying that gayness is fine you are judging good. and im wondering about this imbalance in the brain. i have seen some suggested work on it. but harldy anything solid. I myself have meet, well going on 15 gay guys. and every single one of them have had sexual assults, or exposure to extreme sexual situations as a child. and every single one of them said that it wasnt that wich triggerd thier "gayness". i can see how an early exposer can lead to an imbalance. but being born with it.. well untill they determine if a 2 year old is gay or not, ill choose not to believe in the natural imbalance.

[Sane Inside Insanity]

[QUOTE=Were-E-Wolf]I'm out looking to see what your guy's opinions on Homosexuality and Bisexuality are. QUOTE]

Well, being that I am a bisexual, I do not have anything wrong with it. People love who they love. I do not think it's a sin, because, hey, I'm not christian or any of those other major religions. Heck, I don't have a religion and I'm happy that way. That's about all I'm going to say.

*Prances off*
Tralalalala.

[Unocko]

People should be who they are and love who they love, plain and simple, we all have minds, some just go in different directions than others, its all the same.