The United States of America an Empire?

[Ender]

There are periods in history when the power of a single state/people, following the defeat or disintegration of its main rivals, reaches over the whole of the known world. See Britain, Spain, and China to a lesser extant, who have dominated their areas for large amounts of time throughout history, economically and culturally.

Empire = (1) : a major political unit having a territory of great extent or a number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority. From www.m-w.com (http://www.m-w.com)

The new national security strategy put forth by the Bush administration (a.k.a. the "Bush Doctrine") claims that "new deadly challenges have emerged from rogue states," including a "greater likelihood that they will use weapons of mass destruction against us." One of the responses to this threat is the "development of an effective missile defense system."

At the same time, the Bush Doctrine claims that the United States must "stop rogue states and their terrorist clients before they are able to threaten or use weapons of mass destruction against the United States and our allies and friends." A preemptive attack policy is explicitly endorsed.

About freakn' time. I have always been a fan of the preemptive strike. If there is nothing to stand against and/or attack a state/people, the state/people are safe, can flourish economically and socially, and be at peace with it's self. That is a good reason to strive for an Empire, if you have no enemies, you and your people are safe from yourself, I mean to say, if you make your enemies and would-be-enemies into your own people, take over their civilization, inject them into your Empire, you'd have no enemies. A stronger Empire would be made from this process, how Rome and Britain did it for centuries.

So the question is: Do you think The United States of America have become imperialistic with the rest of the world, or is it trying to? More so, does any one country or people have the right to try to create an Empire?

(I used MSWord, fewer spelling errors for your safety :D)

[chriz]

We'd never be able to incorporate China into an American Empire (not to mention the EU), so there would always be enemies.

Read some Orwell. ;)

[Matrixwolf]

I'd like to think a united Earth is possible but it would take a good bit of war and a long time to get it. As far as America being Imperialistic, Well We are War mongers, Our livlyhoods, our Economy, our very society thrives on the fact that we like to go out beat the crap outta those who have done us wrong. War is the single most profitable business out there, It creates jobs, inspires people, and forces everyone to come together. So yes I guess America is a kind of Empire.

[chriz]

I think Imperialism has a historical precedent, however it will only be sustained if its a societal imperative and is carried by the weight of the majority. Once the majority falters, then it goes the way of Rome and other cultures. Being the cynic that I am, I have doubts that the society of the United States even knows what Imperialism means other than what they have been told by talking heads on television and in that perspective I would suggest a new "reality show" called Imperialism so that people can be educated with a medium they can understand.

Agreed. I think if you suggested the possibility of an American Empire to the Average American, he'd be thinking Stormtroopers and Death Stars.

If by Empire you mean a global government, the UN is a step toward that and it's not looking too healthy these days. Also, a global government is dangerous, because once it goes corrupt (and they always go corrupt) it brings down the world economy with it. As long as there are independent nations to pick up each others' pieces, the amount of downtime between superpowers is reduced. Also, if you don't like the situation in Country A, you can always move to Country B. Don't have that option under a global government.

If by Empire you mean a government system with an Emperor, I don't think that's the best way to go. Even if Emperor #1 is an honest, sane guy like Julius Caesar (yeah, right), they have a habit of nepotism. Emperor #7 will be Caligula or Nero.

IMHO, the best structure is a multiude of smallish nations that have well-drawn treaties with each other, but who maintain internal sovereignty. Unfortunately, that's considered a 19th Century idea and we've become too entrenched with each other to make any such change.

[MorganaFang]

From a very unpolitical person's standpoint (aka me) I don't believe America can come anywhere near too an empire, we ared too big a mixing pot with so many different cultures with in one. Sure we try to dominate "struggling countries" and call them our "friends" but America is too young to ever gain any real sway. Eventually, we'll have a new president (hopefully) and we'll get intangled in his flaws and dramas. We are a country of social chaos, not exactly war.

[GhostBat]

Ender, I love you (not literally).

I have to write a 4-5 page essay on this exact topic for United States History...

I believe that the US has been an imperialistic country for many years. Not only does America own vast amounts of land compared to most other countries, they "police" the world by excercising control over different countries.

However, America would never be able to become a world-wide empire, and I think no country should be given the chance too. If anyone disliked the government because it was corrupt, there would be no where to escape, and no other country to keep it in line.

[Dagj]

yes, i belive it's very safe to say that america is becoming an empire

[kaycee]

I don't know if I would consider the United States an empire considering the different rulers we've had, and different rulers to come. Things will always be changing given that. But, at this point, I think it's almost safe to say that our current president could be considered an emporer. By him leading other nations under his authority and instruction to 'dominate' another country(s), that gives him an emporer title if you think about it. So, with that said, maybe the United States is an empire at this time, but may not always be, since there will be different presidents with different points of view.

[kaycee]

My hell. I am now a packmate.

I feel all warm and fuzzy now :p

[chriz]

I don't know if I would consider the United States an empire considering the different rulers we've had, and different rulers to come. Things will always be changing given that. But, at this point, I think it's almost safe to say that our current president could be considered an emporer. By him leading other nations under his authority and instruction to 'dominate' another country(s), that gives him an emporer title if you think about it. So, with that said, maybe the United States is an empire at this time, but may not always be, since there will be different presidents with different points of view.

Actually, no, an Emperor isn't defined by any action the current US president has taken. An Emperor is like a King -- someone who rules via some kind of absolute authority (like divine right or hereditary rule). Bush has no independent authority denied any other president.

[kaycee]

Actually, no, an Emperor isn't defined by any action the current US president has taken. An Emperor is like a King -- someone who rules via some kind of absolute authority (like divine right or hereditary rule). Bush has no independent authority denied any other president.


No, he has no authority denied any other president, but what authority is or was always there for any other president, he acted on. Or maybe the authority is different now then it was in the past. I really don't know. Like I said, things change all the time.

All I'm saying is that his voice was and is very influential to his allies, and he did hold a superior position in the war with Iraq. Which according to some give him an emperor like title.

[kat]

I don't think that it was Bush's voice specifically that influenced our "allies", but rather the office he held. I'm entirely irreverent towards Bush, but I respect the Office.

[Wolffy13]

Even if that's what a president set out to do (for argument's sake), that doesn't mean Congress and the Supreme Court would back him up. The government was set up like that to keep all the branches in line. Besides, Chriz is right. Countries like China would never go with it.

[chriz]

All I'm saying is that his voice was and is very influential to his allies, and he did hold a superior position in the war with Iraq. Which according to some give him an emperor like title.

Then that would apply to any president during war. And it doesn't earn him any title other than president. An empire is "a political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority." The US rules over no other nation, and we have no more territories than England, France, or China.

[kaycee]

I don't think that it was Bush's voice specifically that influenced our "allies", but rather the office he held. I'm entirely irreverent towards Bush, but I respect the Office.


I'm not a politics fan at all. I just think that he did what IMO no other president would have done. Maybe he didn't do things the right way, but he did influence others and he did have the authority position. Look at how intense his speaches were. He was like a wild wolf , very aggressive and not willing to back down for no reason no matter what anyone else thought. To me, that's influential.

[kat]

I don't place any value on the speeches Presidents give; they don't write them. They only deliver them, and Bush has a habit of doing that poorly. I have never seen him perform a good speech (and I've seen him live).

I can't believe you used the word "wolf" to describe him at this board. That's so... aaaargh... *dies* ;)

[kaycee]

Then that would apply to any president during war. And it doesn't earn him any title other than president. An empire is "a political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority." The US rules over no other nation, and we have no more territories than England, France, or China.


OK so he isn't an emperor, just an everyday kind of president.

[chriz]

I don't place any value on the speeches Presidents give; they don't write them. They only deliver them, and Bush has a habit of doing that poorly. I have never seen him perform a good speech (and I've seen him live).

But they approve them, so they do have some input. But his last SotU speech was delivered well. Only one slip.
I can't believe you used the word "wolf" to describe him at this board. That's so... aaaargh... *dies* ;)

I caught that, too. ;)

[kaycee]

I can't believe you used the word "wolf" to describe him at this board. That's so... aaaargh... *dies*

I know, sorry wolf people :p

[LV426]

Imperials! Arm the weapons, launch the X-Wings!

Down with all StormTroopers!

[LGM]

Bang! LGM enters the fray, armed with his extensive knowledge of nothing...First, let us check good ol' dictionary.com (www.dictionary.com) for a definition of sorts:

Empire: noun
1. A political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority.
2. The territory included in such a unit.

Well, I doubt many would argue that the US exerts control enough over any other territories to be technically classified as an Empire.

Of course, if all debates were that simple, we shouldn't be discussing them and I shall rule the world. Of course, I have no doubt that the ulterior motive of this thread was to point out the US's power-stance in respect to the worlds government, the UN.

You see, if there was to be any technically accurate empire existing nowadays it would be the Empire of the United Nations. The UN is a democratic government that exerts power over a large percentage of the world. One might say that it "rules" them to some degree, or at least, it should.

Still, in this world government, you have to question the democracy that supposedly exists there. Sure, they stand around and debate things, taking your taxes, just like a democratic government does, but is this enough. Democracy revolves around the basis that one man is equal to another. This is clearly something that lacks in the modern-day UN.

Why? Simply because there are one or two "dictator states" that have the power not to abide by the democratic system of the UN. There are a few nations that are clearly superior enough to lead the UN in one cause, yet ignore its rulings when they clash with their own agendas. In this sense, one may argue that in these nations, the most powerful being the US of course, has grown a more elite band of members. One could argue that since the US has the power to do what it wants with (or without) the UN, it is some sort of Emperor figure (just not in any technical terms).

Or at least, that may or may not be the views of some. You see, the UN showed over Iraq that it could not be swayed against its decisions. Since the US and UK went ahead anyway, one could argue that the UN was ultimately defeated. However, from the ashes of the battlefield grows a rose, a sign that the US and other nations has not grown absolute control yet.

Of course, unless the UN can grow to be more effective, and all members can acknowledge some degree of equality, then such Imperialism can be kept at bay, and the world will go forward...

PS: Forgive any spelling mistakes or ramblings that make no sense. Had a few...

[Ves]

The United States is a country with very human leaders that lead one of the most powerful military establishments in the world. Unfortunately it stands to reason that one day someone will end up in power that decides it will be a good idea to build a little empire. It'll probably come when the US economy is dying and people are starving in the streets.
It won't be "rar! lets take over the world", it'll be "we're low on resources, lets invade Mexico". Somehow they'll slip it by the senate and presto, Empire of the United States of America. They may even carry on into the rest of South America.
It won't be Canada, because that's a Commonwealth country which would piss off Britain mightily. The Chinese probably wouldn't do a thing until it threatened them directly which it won't.
A true world government is the only thing I can think of that would stop this.
Is anyone else worried that a fair few (mostly Americans from what I could tell) people didn't draw a distinction between a world government and an American Empire on this Topic?

[Dagj]

.
It won't be Canada, because that's a Commonwealth country which would piss off Britain mightily.

if we are really going to be an Empire in that sene, do you really think we will worry about pissing off britain? Do you think Rome gave a crap about what the nations they invaded felt like?


Is anyone else worried that a fair few (mostly Americans from what I could tell) people didn't draw a distinction between a world government and an American Empire on this Topic?
well if you look at LGM's post containing the def of empire then there technically is no difference between world goverment and Empire.

[Ves]

if we are really going to be an Empire in that sene, do you really think we will worry about pissing off britain? Do you think Rome gave a crap about what the nations they invaded felt like?
If the leadership in this hypothetical scene had any intelligence at all, they would want to tread carefully around the idea of ending up with the EU or China as an enemy. Attacking Canada would very likely do that. Whereas attacking Mexico would be far less likely to do either of those things.

The Romans didn't just randomly go around conquering countries and then moving on. There was a little bit of politics and tactical thought in the background.

well if you look at LGM's post containing the def of empire then there technically is no difference between world goverment and Empire.
There is a lot of difference between controlling a lot of land and world government. Britain had a vast empire, as did France and a host of others, yet none of these nations have come close to being a world government.

[LGM]

RE: That final point made by ves_tacha_jek.

It all depends on how you define a one-government system. Indeed, at the stage where the British Empire held 90% of the worlds landmass it had the power to govern taxes in all its lands, could draw any resources and/or troops from all lands, was responsible for the welfare and defence of all its lands, governed immigration between colonies, etc etc etc.

One could debate that it was a sort of "World Government". It all depends on what one views as critical criteria, and what functions said government had to have performed.

Maybe we should define these criteria more clearly?

[Ves]

One could debate that it was a sort of "World Government". It all depends on what one views as critical criteria, and what functions said government had to have performed.

Maybe we should define these criteria more clearly?

I would define it as being the literal "Government of the World". The British Empire may well have once covered most of the world, but like I say we were never in danger of being a world government in the literal sense. It merely made us a major player.
To be honest I don't actually believe a true world government would be possible. Not as things are at the moment that is. It would take an event to draw humanity together as a race and to forget about petty concerns of patriotism. This would likely require a cataclysmic event or even something really overboard like an alien invasion, or possibly colonisation of another world, something to make us think "Earth vs. whatever" instead of "[insert nation here] vs.something".
Shame because if all humanity was singing from the same songsheet then maybe life would be better for poor bastards in what are currently developing nations as resources from richer areas of the world were moved to help them.

[Ronin]

So the question is: Do you think The United States of America have become imperialistic with the rest of the world, or is it trying to? More so, does any one country or people have the right to try to create an Empire? To a certain extent yes and no. I mean, when you think about it the US is pretty isolated. There's just Canada to the North and then Mexico to the south and that's about it. Not really prime real estate worth taking over. Whereas you look at the Eastern hemisphere you have countries and nations all bunched up together. So of course overtaking each other would come up in their history of development since their all pretty much next door to each other.

The only thing that worries me is that if history is any guide all great empires came to an end. The US has only been around for a little over 200 years as opposed to the Roman empire which lasted 1500 years. We're just babies in this "empire" business if we can truly label ourselves that.

~Ronin

[Vendetta]

Imperials! Arm the weapons, launch the X-Wings!

Down with all StormTroopers!
You rebel scum!

(come on you had to see that coming 12 parsecs away)

EDIT: Oh and on that note, remember that the "evil" Empire in Star Wars didn't start out as an empire... it was corrupted from within by political machinations (ok and a healthy dose of the Dark Side. :) )

[Dagj]

The Romans didn't just randomly go around conquering countries and then moving on. There was a little bit of politics and tactical thought in the background.



yes, but there was very little diplomacy. Even when the goths were handing it to the romans, it took many major losses for them to even think of diplomacy. Tatical thought there was lots of, but seeing as the general roman consensus saw other non roman nations as barbaric they often thought little of the nations they were invading. It was probably one of the flaws that led to their downfall. i only used romans because it was the most obvious example of a world spanning empire.

as to the definition of world gov. I would say it probably safe to say that in a technical way world gov and Empire are simlar/same. However, a large area of land can be anything. It could mean the World, the whole of a continent, or just a piece of land bigger than any one elses. however as Ves_techa_jek said "There is a lot of difference between controlling a lot of land and world government." a lot of nations can pillage and burn their ways through large swaths of land if they wanted to, but how many could hold that land and remain productive at the same time? i'm not sure we could be capable of doing that.

[Ves]

yes, but there was very little diplomacy.

Of course there was diplomacy, the Roman Empire was indeed arrogant, but it wouldn't have lasted as long as it did if it's legions were just invading countries without previous thought as to who the enemy was and who their allies were.
Granted such diplomacy was usually limited to "we want your country, give it to us and you'll be made a Roman Citizen and allowed to continue ruling on our behalf, refuse and we'll come and take it from you."

[Dagj]

Granted such diplomacy was usually limited to "we want your country, give it to us and you'll be made a Roman Citizen and allowed to continue ruling on our behalf, refuse and we'll come and take it from you."
that was more what i was refearing to. your right, i should rephrase what i said. There was diplomacy, but most of it was hardly civil diplomacy. it was mostly demands. sort of an ancient form of "lower your shields and prepare to be assimilated" :D

[neophyter]

America has been an evil empire ever since the satanic boheimian club was established 120 years ago all members of high government are involved including the president , his aids , cia ,fbi and atf heads .this i find disturbing .

Dont get me wrong im aussie an alie of yours and am damn glad about it ,any way the whole preemtive strike policy or the patriot act is just a way of the bohiemian and masonic/jewish banking empire to infiltrate the infrastrucure of other countries as to steal their wealth as in iraq.

If i were you i'd be shiting myself as part of the policy change include removing (eventualy) your second amenment right to bear arms and form militia groups as said in bill clintons 97 speach about the fact that the american people have to many rights and freedoms as stated in the constitution and these will be removed through martial law which is all ready being brought in slowy,check out pirate news .com or infowars.com to read how US troops are now patroling borders in more than ten states in your country ,you will also find video of bush cheney and other leaders engaged in satanic practices at there private club in northern california.

So in conclusion i wouldnt be so happy about the bush policy

neophyter,a friend of the inocent american people

[LV426]

America has been an evil empire ever since the satanic boheimian club was established 120 years ago all members of high government are involved including the president , his aids , cia ,fbi and atf heads .this i find disturbing .

Dont get me wrong im aussie an alie of yours and am damn glad about it ,any way the whole preemtive strike policy or the patriot act is just a way of the bohiemian and masonic/jewish banking empire to infiltrate the infrastrucure of other countries as to steal their wealth as in iraq.

If i were you i'd be shiting myself as part of the policy change include removing (eventualy) your second amenment right to bear arms and form militia groups as said in bill clintons 97 speach about the fact that the american people have to many rights and freedoms as stated in the constitution and these will be removed through martial law which is all ready being brought in slowy,check out pirate news .com or infowars.com to read how US troops are now patroling borders in more than ten states in your country ,you will also find video of bush cheney and other leaders engaged in satanic practices at there private club in northern california.

So in conclusion i wouldnt be so happy about the bush policy

neophyter,a friend of the inocent american people





????satanic boheimian club?????????


You really are brainwashed.

Oh and could we use spellcheck?

[tragediaolvidada_RIP_R.S.]

To the club person,
Are you anti-american I mean I'm just asking for utter assurance becuase if you are than your opinion on America has no importance.

[Darth Cluich]

????satanic boheimian club?????????

You really are brainwashed.

Brainwashed? Nah. I believe the proper scientific term is "wacked out of your freakin' gourd."

[Zookeeper]

I'd like to think a united Earth is possible but it would take a good bit of war and a long time to get it. As far as America being Imperialistic, Well We are War mongers, Our livlyhoods, our Economy, our very society thrives on the fact that we like to go out beat the crap outta those who have done us wrong. War is the single most profitable business out there, It creates jobs, inspires people, and forces everyone to come together. So yes I guess America is a kind of Empire.

Listen guy,
Do you really want to be brave imperialistic soldier? "Saving Private Matrixwolf" sounds pretty good, actually.