Of Magic and Reality

[_wistful_]

Reality is (not by definition) how one views actuality, existence and essence. It is by one definition all of your experiences that determine how things appear to you. So could each person's reality be different? Could magic exist in one person's reality and not in another's? Could magic itself really exist? I know magic exists for some people, but it has nothing to do with whether or not you believe in it. Since our realities are joined by living in the same here and now, it means that either magic does or doesn't exist for everybody. How can that be if some people claim to have witnessed/manipulated/believe in it, and that it does exist? But if there were such a thing as magic, that doesn't live or die and affects, directly and indirectly, so called "reality", it would upset the natural balance, which so far has maintained, thus proving its nonexistence. So it's back to my original questions: does magic exist,having effectively argued both sides? And if each person has created their own reality, can magic exist in some and not in others? Or do we all live in a joint reality and just view it differently, bringing us back to the first question. :confused:

[MorganaFang]

Reality is (not by definition) how one views actuality, existence and essence. It is by one definition all of your experiences that determine how things appear to you. So could each person's reality be different? Could magic exist in one person's reality and not in another's? Could magic itself really exist? I know magic exists for some people, but it has nothing to do with whether or not you believe in it. Since our realities are joined by living in the same here and now, it means that either magic does or doesn't exist for everybody. How can that be if some people claim to have witnessed/manipulated/believe in it, and that it does exist? But if there were such a thing as magic, that doesn't live or die and affects, directly and indirectly, so called "reality", it would upset the natural balance, which so far has maintained, thus proving its nonexistence. So it's back to my original questions: does magic exist,having effectively argued both sides? And if each person has created their own reality, can magic exist in some and not in others? Or do we all live in a joint reality and just view it differently, bringing us back to the first question. :confused:

There was once this thing my father showed me which he said proved the existance of multiple dimensions. In fact it applied to all beings, in each individual we have our own projected dimension and yet are able to live among others with their own dimensions. Something weird like that all I know is that he was uber excited and I couldn't comprehend what the hell he was excited for.

[Hellcat]

Reality is (not by definition) how one views actuality, existence and essence. It is by one definition all of your experiences that determine how things appear to you. So could each person's reality be different? Could magic exist in one person's reality and not in another's? Could magic itself really exist? I know magic exists for some people, but it has nothing to do with whether or not you believe in it. Since our realities are joined by living in the same here and now, it means that either magic does or doesn't exist for everybody. How can that be if some people claim to have witnessed/manipulated/believe in it, and that it does exist? But if there were such a thing as magic, that doesn't live or die and affects, directly and indirectly, so called "reality", it would upset the natural balance, which so far has maintained, thus proving its nonexistence. So it's back to my original questions: does magic exist,having effectively argued both sides? And if each person has created their own reality, can magic exist in some and not in others? Or do we all live in a joint reality and just view it differently, bringing us back to the first question. :confused:

I don't think your question can be answered until you can define the term 'magic' after all there are many things that could be seen as magic. For example the power of the magnet that makes bits of metal stick to it that might be discribed as magic (if we didn't understand the science behind it). I can make pigeons come to me- I throw bread on the floor outside and voila I have pigeons all around me, is that magic? NO, of course not- it's logic, pigeons eat bread, I provided bread, pigeons come. Magic is merely a term used to describe a phenomenon that has been manipulated in some way by man but cannot be explained by common logic or science. So the answer to your question in yes- magic does exist in some peoples reality and not others. I believe in magic- ie its something people can achieve that can't be explained by science or logic. Yet Joe Bloggs next door doesn't believe in magic because its just something that can be achieved that science/logic hasn't been able to explain YET. Of course if you are talking of turning cats into apricots...when I see it happen I'll believe it and then I'll say yes I believe in magic- its a phenomenon that logic or science can't explain. And most people have to see 'magic' to believe it

[Wolffy13]

Philosophy section...evil. Can't......resist... thinking.

I agree with Hellcat in the fact that Magic is a loose term. That could be anything to anyone. A magnet's power can be very fascinating, especially if you are having one of those days :D

If it is Magick that you ask about, well, we'll never know the absolute truth. Magick is defined to be manipulating your environment and the forces around you to get the desired results you seek (why did I help run that stupid coven :banghead: , anyway). I believe anyone can do it, but you have to believe it will work. You have to have faith, otherwise it won't work.

As far as upsetting the natural balance goes, well, that's the catch. You know what they say, "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" and when working with magick, you have to be selective with what you do because you can either reap the benefits or suffer the consequences. Basically, karma. Karma has a way of straightening life back out when you do that. That's one of the reasons I don't make the stoplights turn green anymore. I get three red lights for every light I turn green ;)

[Frostbeard]

Reality is (not by definition) how one views actuality, existence and essence. It is by one definition all of your experiences that determine how things appear to you. So could each person's reality be different?

Each person's INTERPRETATION of reality would be different, but I don't think that's the same thing as each person's actual reality being different.

Could magic exist in one person's reality and not in another's? Could magic itself really exist? I know magic exists for some people, but it has nothing to do with whether or not you believe in it.

Magic is a sticky situation. It all depends upon what you really mean when you say "magic". I'm afraid you're going to have to spell it out here.

Since our realities are joined by living in the same here and now, it means that either magic does or doesn't exist for everybody. How can that be if some people claim to have witnessed/manipulated/believe in it, and that it does exist?

As a counter-point, lots of people believe there is evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11. Does that mean it's true? If some people have no reason to believe otherwise, does that mean that Saddam ACTUALLY had something to do with it, or just that they perceive he does?

But if there were such a thing as magic, that doesn't live or die and affects, directly and indirectly, so called "reality", it would upset the natural balance, which so far has maintained, thus proving its nonexistence.

What is the natural balance? How do you know that magic "doesn't live or die"? How does magic affect reality differently than something that is part of your "natural balance"? You seem to be arguing that because the world exists, magic can't exist.


So it's back to my original questions: does magic exist,having effectively argued both sides? And if each person has created their own reality, can magic exist in some and not in others? Or do we all live in a joint reality and just view it differently, bringing us back to the first question. :confused:

My view would be that the people we interact with are in the same reality as us, they simply have different perceptions of it. As to whether magic exists or not... that depends on your definition.

Aleister Crowley (a notorious ceremonial magician from the earlier part of the 20th century) defined "magick" (spelled with a "k" to differentiate it from stage illusions) as causing change in accordance with will. That's a pretty broad definition that leaves a lot of room for interpretation, so I'm hoping the definition you're using is a little more specific.

[Kishi-Garou]

Lets just stick with my few line replies.

"Magick is the art of conforming energy to will(power.)"
Aleister Crowely, Creator of the Order of the Golden Dawn,
'Grandfather' to Satanism. (Though not directly related to it.)

[Frostbeard]

Lets just stick with my few line replies.

"Magick is the art of conforming energy to will(power.)"
Aleister Crowely, Creator of the Order of the Golden Dawn,
'Grandfather' to Satanism. (Though not directly related to it.)

Actually, Crowley did not create the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. He was a member for a time, and contributed to a schism in the order, but he is certainly not the founder.

You're probably thinking of the Ordo Templi Orientis.

[Kantra Wulf]

And on the topic of Dear Uncle Crowley, let us not forget his founding of the Order of the Silver Star (Astrum Argentum).