Cain and Able...Then Who??

[kaycee]

Some things I don't get about how the world began. One of my major beefs is, if Adam and Eve gave birth to only two sons, Cain and Able, where did more population come from? *eek*, I'm thinking bad thoughts.


Also, just a random thought, it is noted that the first murder was Cain killing Able, but was that the first death?

[Frostbeard]

Adam and Eve didn't only have two sons. I don't own a Bible, so I can't give you any numbers, but I'm certain they had more children than just Cain and Abel. Seth is one of them that is mentioned specifically.

[kaycee]

Adam and Eve didn't only have two sons. I don't own a Bible, so I can't give you any numbers, but I'm certain they had more children than just Cain and Abel. Seth is one of them that is mentioned specifically.

Oh, I'm not all that familiar with the bible either. I didn't know they had more children (shame on me). But still, Seth is a male. Did they have any daughters?

[Frostbeard]

Oh, I'm not all that familiar with the bible either. I didn't know they had more children (shame on me). But still, Seth is a male. Did they have any daughters?

Probably, but the Bible is pretty sexist. Daughters probably wouldn't have been worth mentioning, sadly.

[Hellcat]

Probably, but the Bible is pretty sexist. Daughters probably wouldn't have been worth mentioning, sadly.

Even if there were any daughters, the entire population of humans would have been based on an incestious (is that a word?) act

[kat]

Interactive Biblical Family Tree (http://www.bprc.org/mapchart/family.html). And I'm definitely noticing on this that their wives aren't mentioned. Guess they must have just "appeared".

Here's a spread-out version: Tah Dah (http://www.lukemastin.com/diary/bible_family_tree.gi f)

[MexicanJewLizard]

Adam and Eve didn't only have two sons. I don't own a Bible, so I can't give you any numbers, but I'm certain they had more children than just Cain and Abel. Seth is one of them that is mentioned specifically.

It's sad somewhere they had over 800 children.

[Frostbeard]

Even if there were any daughters, the entire population of humans would have been based on an incestious (is that a word?) act

Pretty much. The Catholics justify this by saying that Adam, Eve and their offspring were somehow more "pure" than humanity as we know it, and that incest would not have resulted in the kind of defects we see from inbreeding. They use this to explain how certain characters in the Bible could live to incredible ages, as well.

[kat]

Here are some links to interesting reading:

Was there really a Cain & Able? (http://www.ishipress.com/lucy.htm) An amateur look at the statistics involved.
A FaithForum discussion of this. (http://www.faithforum.org/challenge/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3 551) Probably the most beneficial link you'll find on the subject.
Interesting counter comments towards the Adam & Eve of Human Genetics theory (http://www.hum-molgen.de/NewsGen/11-2000/msg09.html).

[blueeyes]

Other people say that wives and most other cultures just pop up out of nowhere as soon as Adam and Eve were booted from the garden of Eden (interesting myth on its own). Presumably they were either always there or God made them afterward. Or it could just be a metaphor.

[kaycee]

Other people say that wives and most other cultures just pop up out of nowhere as soon as Adam and Eve were booted from the garden of Eden (interesting myth on its own). Presumably they were either always there or God made them afterward. Or it could just be a metaphor.


Other people? I've never heard this story. It's amazing how people who really have faith in all of the bible, can actually understand it. There's no logic.

[blueeyes]

I don't have faith in the bible, but when a missionary comes by, I like to know their subject better than they do. Makes their heads pop. The other people I talked about were primarily a couple Lutherans, who were trying to think of an interpretation that wouldn't screw over Genesis.
And no, it doesn't make sense.

[J.L.R.]

First of all you have to understand that the book of Genesis is basically a summery of the most important events, especially those concerning, creation of the world, creation of wild life, the creation of man, man's fall, and finally covenant with the Hebrews as a people, since they wouldn't become a nation, until well after the Exodus. Having said that, it only mentions those people who were important to the story being told. Genetically, it has been proven that all people could have originated from two individuals. I actaully saw a Science Channel special on it. Scientifically it is plausable. If you look at the early peoples of the Bible, you will notice that they also lived a whole lot longer. Some even living up to 966 years or so years.
The Bible mentions three siblings of Adam and Eve, Cain, Abel, and Seth. After these are born, the Bible then mentions, that Adam and Eve had sons and daughters.

Since people back then could live for nearly a 1000 years, they could take a wife of somebody who was a 6th generation cousin, or so. Also note, Cain could have been nearly 300 to 400 years old when he killed Abel. Why I say this, is because, Cain was affraid of getting killed by other people, so obviously he had to have distant relatives abounding.

The people would setting with those they had greatest in common with, and eventually you would get different races, as people began to multiply and divide into families.

[Hellcat]

First of all you have to understand that the book of Genesis is basically a summery of the most important events, especially those concerning, creation of the world, creation of wild life, the creation of man, man's fall, and finally covenant with the Hebrews as a people, since they wouldn't become a nation, until well after the Exodus. Having said that, it only mentions those people who were important to the story being told. Genetically, it has been proven that all people could have originated from two individuals. I actaully saw a Science Channel special on it. Scientifically it is plausable. If you look at the early peoples of the Bible, you will notice that they also lived a whole lot longer. Some even living up to 966 years or so years.
The Bible mentions three siblings of Adam and Eve, Cain, Abel, and Seth. After these are born, the Bible then mentions, that Adam and Eve had sons and daughters.

Since people back then could live for nearly a 1000 years, they could take a wife of somebody who was a 6th generation cousin, or so. Also note, Cain could have been nearly 300 to 400 years old when he killed Abel. Why I say this, is because, Cain was affraid of getting killed by other people, so obviously he had to have distant relatives abounding.

The people would setting with those they had greatest in common with, and eventually you would get different races, as people began to multiply and divide into families.

If this is true, then it still remains the same- the human population began with incest.

[Hellcat]

Pretty much. The Catholics justify this by saying that Adam, Eve and their offspring were somehow more "pure" than humanity as we know it, and that incest would not have resulted in the kind of defects we see from inbreeding. They use this to explain how certain characters in the Bible could live to incredible ages, as well.

Hmmmm I don't buy it- if by purity they are refering to the genetic make up of the two (supposed) individual, then surely those genetics would have been carried on through the generations and we'd all be pure. Unless of course they then argue that one or two genes mutated, and children were born with defects (hence the law against incest these days) then we could suggest that man has evolved (isn't it 'odd' genes that play a part in evolution?). Maybe Adam and even weren't even Homo Sapiens. They might have been Homo habilis for all we know, perhaps even older than that, maybe even Aegyptopithecus zuexis (if you have ever seen the skull of one of these -I saw a recreation of one in the Skulls unlimited catologue, 2000. My god- if there is such thing as a werewolf skull then this is it!)

[ArcaneWolf]

First of all you have to understand that the book of Genesis is basically a summery of the most important events, especially those concerning, creation of the world, creation of wild life, the creation of man, man's fall, and finally covenant with the Hebrews as a people, since they wouldn't become a nation, until well after the Exodus. Having said that, it only mentions those people who were important to the story being told. Genetically, it has been proven that all people could have originated from two individuals. I actaully saw a Science Channel special on it. Scientifically it is plausable. If you look at the early peoples of the Bible, you will notice that they also lived a whole lot longer. Some even living up to 966 years or so years.
The Bible mentions three siblings of Adam and Eve, Cain, Abel, and Seth. After these are born, the Bible then mentions, that Adam and Eve had sons and daughters.

Since people back then could live for nearly a 1000 years, they could take a wife of somebody who was a 6th generation cousin, or so. Also note, Cain could have been nearly 300 to 400 years old when he killed Abel. Why I say this, is because, Cain was affraid of getting killed by other people, so obviously he had to have distant relatives abounding.

The people would setting with those they had greatest in common with, and eventually you would get different races, as people began to multiply and divide into families.

Christians who believe people could of lived that old also typically believe the earth is only a few thousand years old and that the continents have always been the same. Simple and absolute Bull S***! Aliens creating mankind is a more believable theory then christian dogma.

[kaycee]

I've pondered the thought that we may have evolved from aliens too. Humans may look like them eventually with big heads and all.

Our race is becoming smarter and being born with higher IQs than before , babies have bigger heads because their brains are bigger. :p

[blueeyes]

Human skull and brain size has actually decreased over the last few thousand years, so you're a little off there. That's why people have to get wisdom teeth removed. It's the storage becoming more efficent that makes humans smarter.

[MexicanJewLizard]

Some even living up to 966 years or so years.

Methuselah- 969

[LV426]

Christians who believe people could of lived that old also typically believe the earth is only a few thousand years old and that the continents have always been the same. Simple and absolute Bull S***! Aliens creating mankind is a more believable theory then christian dogma.
Arcane be nice. Everyone is allowed to state their opinion however I do find it interesting that you bring up aliens because there in indeed a theory of Ancient Astronauts that came to earth to contribute to the gene pool.

Ah but I don't want to get ahead of myself. Let's go back to the beginning. Of the Bible that is. For in genesis life begins with god creating the heavens and the earth. Lovely that, a nice big round ball for us to live on. We'll skip all the other little details let's just say that there was light added, some water, some land, some birds and fish, a few weird mammals (some were made out of leftover pieces ie:platypus) and then he decided to create man. Some mud, water, and a worm or two and you get the very first man, good ole Adam. Of course there was no porn back then so God had to then create Eve. Now some are going to say, "But what about Lillith!?". Welll for all intents and purposes let's just say that there was no lillith, we only have Adam and Eve. And they had children, apparently lots of children. More children than any woman should ever even think of having.

But if you look back at the Hebrew text, the Hebrew form of Adam used in this sentence is 'eth ha-adam' indicating that what was created were 'human-like life forms' and not just one specific human being. Which means that instead of one Adam and one Eve there were a bunch of Adams and a bunch of Eves. Oh and one other little tidbit that people tend to over look. The Hebrew word 'Elohim' has the form of the plural. That the plural is intentional and meaningful is emphasised by the statement (Gen 1: 26) 'Let us make man in our image, ...'

Rather interesting, as I see it there was more than one god that created man. But that can be a later discussion, at the moment we are on Cain, Able, and the procreation of the human species. So according to the hebrew text there were many adams and many eves. They are now having lots of babies. So those 800 children now seem a bit more plausible since there are more than just one couple on our little blue ball of life.

"Then the Lord God formed man ('eth ha-adam') from the dust of the ground ('adamah'), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man (Hebrew 'ha-adam') became a living soul."

A little translation here.

The Hebrew for what has been translated as 'man' shows that it is life forms which are being referred to. There is no mention of 'man' being in God's image or likeness and it is animals which are stated to have a 'living soul' (Gen 1: 30). So this mention of 'man' refers to the first appearance of life on earth, possibly to life in its most primitive form, to primitive life forms.


Ok so on to Cain and Abel. Cain brought the fruits of his labor from the fields as an offering, and Abel brought juicy little lambs. Abel was appreciated (hence why humans were not meant to be vegetarians), while Cain was not really acknowledged for his efforts.

In a jealous rage Cain slew Abel and when question by god, he lied.

But let us take a look at this conversation.

10 And the Lord said to Cain: 'Where is Abel your brother?' And he said:'I know not; am I my brother's keeper?'

11 And He said: 'What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries to Me from the ground.

(The Hebrew for 'blood' is in the plural form, indicating more than one 'blood'.)


12 And now cursed are you from the ground, which has opened her mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.

(Again, the Hebrew for 'blood' is in the plural form, indicating more than one 'blood'.

And so verses 10 and 11 can refer to blood in the plural, apparently indicating that people were killing each other, that in this way the strong, the most brutal, were dominating others of their own kind.)



13 When you till the ground, it shall not henceforth yield to you her strength; a fugitive and a wanderer shall you be in the earth.'

14 And Cain said to the Lord: 'My punishment is greater than I can bear.

15 Behold, You have driven me out this day from the face of the land; and from Your face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer in the earth; and it will come to pass, that whoever finds me will slay me.'

16And the Lord said to him: 'Therefore whoever slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.' And the Lord set a sign for Cain, lest any finding him should smite him.

Interesting here, you see God doesn't say, "if anyone slays you". It clearly states, "anyone slaying Cain". I rather find the terminology to be interesting because it goes from first person to third. Hmmm me thinks there was more than one author of this book. But I digress.

Cain departs for no man's land aka NOD and finds a wife and then come the begats. I call them the begats because there is this extensive list of who had sex with whom and the children that resulted. It's a very tedious chapter and I have read only pieces of it because it's very mundane.

[LV426]

Ok so where was I. Ah yes, so we travel on past Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, and even little forgotten Seth, and come upon chapter 6 of genesis.

6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

Sons of God? How many sons does God have? I mean I thought there was only well sort of Adam. Ah yes let's not forget that plural use of the word again. Let us continue.

6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

How long is the human lifespan?

6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Now some of this isn't relevant but I thought I would add it in because I found it intriguing.

Giants!

6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.[/I]

6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

God plans to drown everything that breathes. Damn this had to suck!

6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

6:8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Has there ever been a perfect person?
Noah,the just and perfect who by the way was also a lecher and a drunk.


6:9
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

6:10
And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

God decides to kill everything because the earth is too violent

The Flood


6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

6:12
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

6:13
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

The ark
6:14
Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

6:15
And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

The window
6:16
A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

God plans to drown
everything that breathes
6:17
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

6:18
But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

By twos or by sevens? Side note here in Gen.7:2 he took them by sevens.

"Of every clean beast thou shalt take thee by sevens, the male and his female."

6:19
And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

6:20
Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

6:21
And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

6:22
Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.


So if you look at this, the population of humans began with adam and eve but and there is no way to know what the population was at the time that Noah and all of his brats and their wives boarded said Ark and then proceeded to repopulate the earth again. So in this case there would be a wider gene pool for humans to play in. Depending of course upon the population and who those other "sons and daughters" of god were and where they came from. I mean perhaps Adam was the first but he was just one of many clones. Ooooo cloning.

Ok so I mentioned earlier about how some people think that Aliens populated the world and the Ancient Astronauts. Well you see in that above mentioned section in Genesis 6 where it says the sons and daughters of God, well some believe that they had heavenly origins. Now my Bible doesn't mention "Heavenly origins" as the source of these people but there is supposedly mention of this in the original hebrew texts. Unfortunately I can't verify this because I don't read Hebrew and I don't have a book that I can even get translated at the moment. However some interpret this "heavenly source" as being aliens that came to visit and popped a pep pill into our gene pool. BUBBLES!

So as you see there are many different interpretations and while we could possibly credit god for the creation of every living thing and humans, there is no way to verify how many Adams and Eves were actually on that list of creation.

Oh and just so you know I don't believe any of it, I think we evolved from cute little sea monkeys and glowing jellyfish. EVOLUTION RULES!
But hey I had fun looking up all this useless knowledge and sharing it with you.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled flaming.

[kaycee]

Informative. Thanx :)

If anyone is interested, on the History channel right now you can watch 'Sex in the Bible' and after that is 'Who wrote the Bible'.

Or, you could watch Amityville Horror at midnight on AMC. Good night for TV :p

[J.L.R.]

Ok so where was I. Ah yes, so we travel on past Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, and even little forgotten Seth, and come upon chapter 6 of genesis.

6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

Sons of God? How many sons does God have? I mean I thought there was only well sort of Adam. Ah yes let's not forget that plural use of the word again. Let us continue.

6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

How long is the human lifespan?

6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Now some of this isn't relevant but I thought I would add it in because I found it intriguing.

Giants!

6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.[/I]

6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

God plans to drown everything that breathes. Damn this had to suck!

6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

6:8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Has there ever been a perfect person?
Noah,the just and perfect who by the way was also a lecher and a drunk.


6:9
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

6:10
And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

God decides to kill everything because the earth is too violent

The Flood


6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

6:12
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

6:13
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

The ark
6:14
Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

6:15
And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

The window
6:16
A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

God plans to drown
everything that breathes
6:17
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

6:18
But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

By twos or by sevens? Side note here in Gen.7:2 he took them by sevens.

"Of every clean beast thou shalt take thee by sevens, the male and his female."

6:19
And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

6:20
Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

6:21
And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

6:22
Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.


So if you look at this, the population of humans began with adam and eve but and there is no way to know what the population was at the time that Noah and all of his brats and their wives boarded said Ark and then proceeded to repopulate the earth again. So in this case there would be a wider gene pool for humans to play in. Depending of course upon the population and who those other "sons and daughters" of god were and where they came from. I mean perhaps Adam was the first but he was just one of many clones. Ooooo cloning.

Ok so I mentioned earlier about how some people think that Aliens populated the world and the Ancient Astronauts. Well you see in that above mentioned section in Genesis 6 where it says the sons and daughters of God, well some believe that they had heavenly origins. Now my Bible doesn't mention "Heavenly origins" as the source of these people but there is supposedly mention of this in the original hebrew texts. Unfortunately I can't verify this because I don't read Hebrew and I don't have a book that I can even get translated at the moment. However some interpret this "heavenly source" as being aliens that came to visit and popped a pep pill into our gene pool. BUBBLES!

So as you see there are many different interpretations and while we could possibly credit god for the creation of every living thing and humans, there is no way to verify how many Adams and Eves were actually on that list of creation.

Oh and just so you know I don't believe any of it, I think we evolved from cute little sea monkeys and glowing jellyfish. EVOLUTION RULES!
But hey I had fun looking up all this useless knowledge and sharing it with you.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled flaming.


Very imformative... You read more Bible than, most Christians do, and that is sad.

The Sons of God is in reference to those who worshiped God. God has made several references of His people, being referred to as His children, through out the Bible. What has happened is, the families that were worshiping God, began to inter-marry with those who were non-believers, and thus the cultures began to mix, until those who worshiped God almost completely vanished.

But anyway...

[kaycee]

Very imformative... You read more Bible than, most Christians do, and that is sad.

The Sons of God is in reference to those who worshiped God. God has made several references of His people, being referred to as His children, through out the Bible. What has happened is, the families that were worshiping God, began to inter-marry with those who were non-believers, and thus the cultures began to mix, until those who worshiped God almost completely vanished.

But anyway...

And, according to what I watched last night. Those who did worship God commited adultry. Or, so we would think so.

A man could have many wifes/concubines/ and even prostitutes. That was ok. But if a woman layed with another man, it was adultry. She would be put to death.

Alot of what I saw was women were looked down upon because of Eve. It was Eve who tempted her husband to commit the original sin (disobeying God) by tempting him to eat from the tree of knowledge. So women were looked upon as being responsible for the downfall of society. Her (our) punishment was to endure pain during child birth, and it was more dramatic back then since many women and their child often died while giving birth.

Then there was Abe and Sara. Abe and Sara had trouble becoming pregnant and Sara insisted on having a baby. So, Abe conceived a child with a mistress. The baby was given to Sara (a son). Then, Sara did become pregnant. She then wanted nothing to do with Abe's mistress or her son, so she ordered Abe to be rid of them. She was sent into the desert with her son with only bread and water. Thankfully, an angel was watching over them and saved them from death.

Anyway, you know how if a woman sleeps with more than a handful of partners (or less than that even) she is labled a whore but if a man had several partners, he's king shit. It must all stem from the bible. It's all Eve's damn fault :p

[Hellcat]

And, according to what I watched last night. Those who did worship God commited adultry. Or, so we would think so.

A man could have many wifes/concubines/ and even prostitutes. That was ok. But if a woman layed with another man, it was adultry. She would be put to death.

Alot of what I saw was women were looked down upon because of Eve. It was Eve who tempted her husband to commit the original sin (disobeying God) by tempting him to eat from the tree of knowledge. So women were looked upon as being responsible for the downfall of society. Her (our) punishment was to endure pain during child birth, and it was more dramatic back then since many women and their child often died while giving birth.

Then there was Abe and Sara. Abe and Sara had trouble becoming pregnant and Sara insisted on having a baby. So, Abe conceived a child with a mistress. The baby was given to Sara (a son). Then, Sara did become pregnant. She then wanted nothing to do with Abe's mistress or her son, so she ordered Abe to be rid of them. She was sent into the desert with her son with only bread and water. Thankfully, an angel was watching over them and saved them from death.

Anyway, you know how if a woman sleeps with more than a handful of partners (or less than that even) she is labled a whore but if a man had several partners, he's king shit. It must all stem from the bible. It's all Eve's damn fault :p

Yeah, but how come Eve gets all the flack for it, wasn't it a serpent who convinced Eve to commit the sin? And do give me any free will crap. In regards to the great flood- how the hell do you drown a fish?

[LV426]

While I wanted to watch that whole Sex and the Bible thing I was involved in other activities but I do want to address something regarding Eve.

First of all humans were created with free will. Which meant that they were given the ability to make their own decision. So technically Eve wasn't defying god when she ate of the tree of knowledge because although he told her not to eat from the tree of knowledge he really had no right telling her what to do and what not to do. It's that whole free will clause kicking in.

Second, Eve ate from the tree because she wanted to know more. I guess at this time knowledge really was a crime but one that I and many other women would commit over and over again. In fact earlier in the history of this country women fought long and hard to eat of that fruit in the form of learning, voting, and making their own decisions. For while god gave free will to man, apparently women were just beasts of burden. Why would one want to live as a stupid beast when they could learn and grow into so much more?

Oh and one other little thing is that adam really was stupid, he just stood there like some little lump on a log and didn't think of trying to gain knowledge. Too bad eve shared it with him, then he could have been the beast of burden.

Oh and the whole multipe wife and concubine thing for men was just because men think that they have to spread as much of their seed around as possible. Which in the begining would have made more sense because to start a decent sized population of people there would have to be many children produced with a variance of genes. Of course men wrote the Bible so they could add little variations that suit them. Hence the multiple wife and concubine thing. You also have to remember that this is before the 10 commandments (which I really think a woman wrote) and so there were no real rules to follow at that time.

The Sons of God is in reference to those who worshiped God. God has made several references of His people, being referred to as His children, through out the Bible. What has happened is, the families that were worshiping God, began to inter-marry with those who were non-believers, and thus the cultures began to mix, until those who worshiped God almost completely vanished.


Now although this is a good interpretations by the church this interpretation doesn't quite hold up with the way god works. At this time there was a very limited population (according to the bible) which had all descended from Adam and Eve (for all intents and purposes we shall say there were just the two of them) and these people all would have been raised as believers of God. So where did these non-believers come from? And how did Adam and eve's children inter marry with non-believers since Adam and Eve's children and their children all believed in god? How would cultures develop independantly of one another when they all came from the same place and were taught the same things? I mean if God was the source of all humanity then how did these non-believers and other cultures come into being?

[Qyv]

where does it say that they counted their years the same as ours in those ancient times? maybe they counted by the seasons, which would still make Methuselah around 240, a very long life, or maybe they took their ages for the lunar cycle which would make Methuselah around 81..... just a point to be pondered, also if man was crated in 'His' image, and subsequent interbreeding took place that would mean He was one ugly mother.. personal view, any offence taken was not meant to be given

[kaycee]

Yeah, but how come Eve gets all the flack for it, wasn't it a serpent who convinced Eve to commit the sin? And do give me any free will crap. In regards to the great flood- how the hell do you drown a fish?
Yeah, it was a serpent that convinced Eve. According to the show last night, the serpent was a sexual creature. It got her to give into temptation, leading to her commiting the original sin.

[WarChild]

6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

Sons of God? How many sons does God have? I mean I thought there was only well sort of Adam. Ah yes let's not forget that plural use of the word again. Let us continue.

6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.


Giants!

6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.[/I]

According to some sources, the "Sons of God" [Job 1:6, 2:1 and 38:7 where the same phrase "sons of God" is translated as angels] were angels (fallen or otherwise), who mated with the "daughters of men" to produce the giants (aka the nephilim, or the watchers) (anyone who's seen the movie "The Prophecy" will have encountered this theory)

try here for a biblical overview of the idea (althoug this site lists the nephilim as demons)
nephilim in the bible (http://www.deliriumsrealm.c om/delirium/mythology/watchers.asp)

[ArcaneWolf]

According to some sources, the "Sons of God" [Job 1:6, 2:1 and 38:7 where the same phrase "sons of God" is translated as angels] were angels (fallen or otherwise), who mated with the "daughters of men" to produce the giants (aka the nephilim, or the watchers) (anyone who's seen the movie "The Prophecy" will have encountered this theory)

try here for a biblical overview of the idea (althoug this site lists the nephilim as demons)
nephilim in the bible (http://www.deliriumsrealm.c om/delirium/mythology/watchers.asp)

The Prophecy is a great Movie!

And now to connect Angels, Giants, and Jewish text I'll post an excerpt from this site- The Old Ones (http://www.digital-brilliance.com/necron/necron.htm)


"What are the "Old Ones"?

It is abundantly clear that Alhazred elaborated upon existing traditions of the "Old Ones", and he did not invent these traditions. According to Alhazred, the Old Ones were beings from "beyond the spheres", presumably the spheres of the planets, and in the cosmography of that period this would imply the region of the fixed stars or beyond. They were superhuman and extrahuman. They mated with humans and begat monstrous offspring. They passed forbidden knowledge to humankind. They were forever seeking a channel into our plane of existence.

This is virtually identical to the Jewish tradition of the Nephilim (the giants of Genesis 6.2 - 6.5). The word literally means "the Fallen Ones" and is derived from the Hebrew verb root naphal, to fall. The story in Genesis is only a fragment of a larger tradition, another piece of which can be found in the apocryphal Book of Enoch. According to this source, a group of angels sent to watch over the Earth saw the daughters of men and lusted after them. Unwilling to act individually, they swore an oath and bound themselves together, and two hundred of these "Watchers" descended to earth and took themselves wives. Their wives bore giant offspring. The giants turned against nature and began to "sin against birds and beasts and reptiles and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood". The fallen angels taught how to make weapons of war, and jewellery, and cosmetics, and enchantments, and astrology, and other secrets.

These separate legends are elaborated in later Jewish sources such as the Talmud, which make it clear that Enoch and Genesis refer to the same tradition. The great flood of Genesis was a direct response to the evil caused by humankind's commerce with fallen angels. The fallen angels were cast out and bound:


"And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. And I saw something horrible: I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. And there I saw seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains, and burning with fire. Then I said: 'For what sin have they been bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels who was with me, and was chief over them and said: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? These are the number of the stars of heaven which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.'"


Arab traditions hold that the Jinn or Djinn were a race of superhuman beings which existed before the creation of humankind. The Djinn were created from fire. Some traditions make them a lesser race than human beings, but folk-tales invariably endowed them with unlimited magical powers, and the Djinn survive to this day as the genies of the Arabian Nights and Disney's Aladdin. Islam has subordinated the Djinn to the Koran, and like elves and fairies they have lost their dark and extremely sinister qualities with the passage of time. In Alhazred's time the older and darker traditions of the Djinn were still current, and Arab magicians ("muqarribun") would attempt to gain forbidden knowledge and power through commerce with the Djinn."

[Darth Cluich]

"What are the "Old Ones"?

It is abundantly clear that Alhazred elaborated upon existing traditions of the "Old Ones", and he did not invent these traditions. According to Alhazred, the Old Ones were beings from "beyond the spheres", presumably the spheres of the planets, and in the cosmography of that period this would imply the region of the fixed stars or beyond. They were superhuman and extrahuman. They mated with humans and begat monstrous offspring. They passed forbidden knowledge to humankind. They were forever seeking a channel into our plane of existence.

C'mon...you can't cite Alhazred. He's a fictional character created by H.P. Lovecraft, along with the Necronomicon, from which you are drawing this "information."

[ArcaneWolf]

wheither Lovecraft created Alhazred, is a heavily debated topic for those who are familiar with both. and that site that I cited earlier had a very interesting explanation for how lovecraft got involved. one that involves Aliester Crowley.

" Why did the novelist H.P. Lovecraft claim to have invented the Necronomicon?

The answer to this interesting question lies in two people: the poet and magician Aleister Crowley, and a Brooklyn milliner called Sonia Greene. There is no question that Crowley read Dee's translation of the Necronomicon in the Bodleian, probably while researching Dee's papers; too many passages in Crowley's "Book of the Law" read like a transcription of passages in that translation. Either that, or Crowley, who claimed to remember his life as Edward Kelly in a previous incarnation, remembered it from his previous life!

Why doesn't Crowley mention the Necronomicon in his works? He was surprisingly reticent about his real sources. There is a strong suspicion that '777', which Crowley claimed to have written, was largely plagiarised from Allan Bennet's notes. His spiritual debt to Nietzsche, which in an unguarded moment Crowley refers to as "almost an avatar of Thoth, the god of wisdom" is studiously ignored; likewise the influence of Richard Burton's "Kasidah" on his doctrine of True Will.

I suspect that the Necronomicon became an embarrassment to Crowley when he realised the extent to which he had unconsciously incorporated passages from the Necronomicon into "The Book of the Law".

In 1918 Crowley was in New York. As always, he was trying to establish his literary reputation, and was contributing to The International and Vanity Fair. Sonia Greene was an energetic and ambitious Jewish emigre with literary ambitions, and she had joined a dinner and lecture club called "Walker's Sunrise Club" (?!); it was there that she first encountered Crowley, who had been invited to give a talk on modern poetry.

It was a good match. In a letter to Norman Mudd, Crowley describes his ideal woman as


"... rather tall, muscular and plump, vivacious, ambitious, energetic, passionate, age from thirty to thirty five, probably a Jewess, not unlikely a singer or actress addicted to such amusements. She is to be 'fashionable', perhaps a shade loud or vulgar. Very rich of course."


Sonia was not an actress or singer, but qualified in other respects. She was earning what, for that time, was an enormous sum of money as a designer and seller of woman's hats. She was variously described as "Junoesque", "a woman of great charm and personal magnetism", "genuinely glamorous with powerful feminine allure", "one of the most beautiful women I have ever met", and "a learned but eccentric human phonograph". In 1918 she was thirty-five years old and a divorcee with an adolescent daughter. Crowley did not waste time as far as women were concerned; they met on an irregular basis for some months.

In 1921 Sonia Greene met the novelist H.P. Lovecraft, and in that same year Lovecraft published the first novel where he mentions Abdul Alhazred ("The Nameless City"). In 1922 he first mention the Necronomicon ("The Hound"). On March 3rd. 1924, H.P. Lovecraft and Sonia Greene married.

We do not know what Crowley told Sonia Greene, and we do not know what Sonia told Lovecraft. However, consider the following quotation from "The Call of Cthulhu" [1926]:


"That cult would never die until the stars came right again [precession of the Equinoxes?], and the secret priests would take Cthulhu from His tomb to revive His subjects and resume His rule of earth. The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild, and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstacy and freedom."


It may be brief, it may be mangled, but it has the undeniable ring of Crowley's "Book of the Law". It is easy to imagine a situation where Sonia and Lovecraft are laughing and talking in a firelit room about a new story, and Sonia introduces some ideas based on what Crowley had told her; she wouldn't even have to mention Crowley, just enough of the ideas to spark Lovecraft's imagination. There is no evidence that Lovecraft ever saw the Necronomicon, or even knew that the book existed; his Necronomicon is remarkably close to the spirit of the original, but the details are pure invention, as one would expect. There is no Yog-Sothoth or Azathoth or Nyarlathotep in the original, but there is an Aiwaz... "

[LV426]

While I do find all of that interesting there is no real basis of fact for the Necronomicon and it was produced as fiction for a fictional purpose. While I do recognize the Bible as aa piece of fiction as well the authors are unknown and the point of a religion based on it hence why there is this discussion regarding the Bible. I can not credit the same for the Necronomicon and H.P. Lovecraft.

[Frostbeard]

The idea of a connection between Lovecraft and Crowley is very interesting, but it really doesn't establish the existence of a "real" Necronomicon.

Lovecraft himself said he invented the idea. However, he also mentions in a letter that he was visited by men who clearly believed he had learned of it elsewhere, and it took some convincing for them to believe he truly just "dreamt it up". The tone of the letter makes it clear that these men weren't seeking him out to gain from his wisdom, either.

I don't recall ever hearing about a Necronomicon translated by Dee and Kelly anywhere but on the web, though admittedly I've only read a little about the pair. Despite that, it would make a strange kind of sense, and would provide a clear link between the Necronomicon and Crowley.

That said, I don't believe there actually IS a Necronomicon of the sort Lovecraft readers might expect.

[Darth Cluich]

That said, I don't believe there actually IS a Necronomicon of the sort Lovecraft readers might expect.

There are several books that have taken the Necronomicon title or have been referred to as such. Hell, I've seen 'em at Borders. But the bear no resemblance or relationship to Lovecraft.