Religious reasons valid justifcation?

[LycanSpectre]

I dont really think this goes in religion.... but if the mods that be disagree, move it as you see fit.

And here is teh topic: Are religous reasons valid justification for harmful actions? Do your beliefs give you the right to trample on others, or even to kill others? Are these Holy Wars, current and historic, just one big waste of time and effort, or valid causes to fight for?

Now, before my opinion, a relevant quote to get you thinking:

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
Sir Winston Churchill

I do not believe that any belief a person may or may not hold gives them any right to act in such a way that harms another. No way, no how. I do not believe that your beliefs even give you the right to try to convert me. I dont care if you think you are going to hell if you dont. Until you can prove that your "God(s)" are the true diety(ies), keep them to yourself.

[blueeyes]

No, but that's just me; if a god is against one man killing another, he/she/it should not be driving a war, eh?
This is going to be interesting, Lycanspectre, and I would hope that noone gets hurt.

[LycanSpectre]

This is going to be interesting, Lycanspectre, and I would hope that noone gets hurt.

Thats what Im hoping for. :D.... NOT getting hurt that is. And it wouldn't hurt if it was interesting to boot.

[Hellcat]

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at LycanSpectre, are we talking about causing harm to others in order to change their beliefs, or are we talking in the terms of "an eye for an eye..."?

[Xzengrim]

Religion is a poor excuse to do anything to others. Basically, it is you doing whatever you feel like doing anyway, because four out of five voices in your head agree with you. We should all concentrate on being good people and living justly, not wondering what the magic man in the sky wants us to do.

There! So much for not hurting anyone.

But seriously... as an aethiest, I'm going to say no. Personal beliefs are not enough to justify you inflicting injurious harm to others. It just just throws a wrench in the gears of this society we're trying to have here when delusional people start breaking stuff because their imaginary friend could beat up your imaginary friend. Now of course, if God were real, you'd have to do whatever He said, now wouldn't you? If the big man told me to kill somebody or blow something up or steal stuff, I'd have to do it. You don't really have a choice there. ...Which is why I think we still have problems with stuff like this.

I think that religion is a self-delusional function of psychology that keeps humans in check and helps societies bind together. We need it, but that doesn't make it good or healthy for the individual. Not that there's anything wrong with being religious. My sister's religious. I ended up as a werewolf. We're all a little nuts, but there's nothing wrong with that.

[Wolffy13]

I don't believe you should use religion as justification to harm someone, and if you do, I hope you get your ass kicked. As far as killing goes, what religion condones that? I mean, for those who believe in the whole Ten Commandments, it's only the sixth one.

[Hellcat]

I don't believe you should use religion as justification to harm someone, and if you do, I hope you get your ass kicked. As far as killing goes, what religion condones that? I mean, for those who believe in the whole Ten Commandments, it's only the sixth one.


Lets face it, if God exists and he wants someone dead, he isn't gonna use a middle man to do his dirty work now his he? Lets face it, all this religious warfare crap is down to a couple of idiots shouting "my dad's better than your dad", even in the play ground such stupidity has ended in violence. Nine out of ten times its usually the kids devotion to his father that brings the child to believe his parent is better than everyone elses. In the meantime his dad is at home (or work) doing whatever it is that he does, and he's oblivious to what his offspring is up to until he recieves a phone call from a witness telling him his child has thrashed another. Same probably applies to the big father upstairs.

[LycanSpectre]

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at LycanSpectre, are we talking about causing harm to others in order to change their beliefs, or are we talking in the terms of "an eye for an eye..."?

It doesn't matter, the two intermingle so often I think we should treat them the same.

Every religon condones killing. Even christanity does. An incredible chunk of the Bible is devoted to who to kill and how to do it. Muslims have their holy wars. Not to mention the sacrifices. You gotta kill to scarifice a living creature. I dont see how you could think religion does not condone killing. Most of them beget killing.

[Frostbeard]

Waging war for the sake of religious beliefs might SEEM like it would always be wrong, but it's not. Consider this example:

There were a few wars fought in Norway around 1000AD due to religion. In one case, the king tried to force his people to convert to Christianity. He actively rooted out anyone who would not convert, and forced them at swordpoint to reconsider. If they still refused, they were killed.

Eventually, the people of Norway who still held on to the old beliefs rose up against their king and fought a civil war. The king was first exiled, and then killed in battle when he tried to seize power again.

There are more political details to this conflict, of course, but the basic principle is still true: The rebels waged a civil war because the king was trying to force upon them a religion they didn't want. In my mind, the survival of their beliefs and way of life was as good a reason to cause harm as there can be.

[Frostbeard]

Every religon condones killing.

I wouldn't go that far. There are some religions that find killing abhorent.

Even christanity does. An incredible chunk of the Bible is devoted to who to kill and how to do it.

That would be Old Testament. Basically, Christian Philosphers feel that the whole Christ thing cancelled out a lot of the old "rules". For example, blood sacrifice is not required in Christianity because Jesus was already offered up as the king of all blood sacrifices.

Muslims have their holy wars.

See, none of that is part of their religion, strictly speaking. It's more to do with ancient politics and racism than anything else. Seriously, read the Koran, and tell me where it says to wage war.

Not to mention the sacrifices. You gotta kill to scarifice a living creature.

See above, but generally you're right. Not all sacrifices involve killing an animal though. Libation (http://dictionary.reference .com/search?q=libation) is one example.

I dont see how you could think religion does not condone killing. Most of them beget killing.

It's not religion on its own that begets the killing, in my opinion. It's the conflict of differing religions. Nowadays we have what are called "revealed" religions, and these faiths generally feel that they are the One and Only Way. "Natural" religions, those which evolve over millenia typically alongside a culture, tend to be accepting of other beliefs, however.

Of course, this is a little too general, and there are exceptions in both cases.

[LycanSpectre]

I wouldn't go that far. There are some religions that find killing abhorent.

That would be Old Testament. Basically, Christian Philosphers feel that the whole Christ thing cancelled out a lot of the old "rules". For example, blood sacrifice is not required in Christianity because Jesus was already offered up as the king of all blood sacrifices.

See, none of that is part of their religion, strictly speaking. It's more to do with ancient politics and racism than anything else. Seriously, read the Koran, and tell me where it says to wage war.



Religions are not limited to their books. They have priests, prophets, holy men, and whatever else you choose to name a person of faith. People like these WROTE those books in the first place, so saying that they cannot dictate religon is laughable.

Muslim Clerics are decaring Holy War.

The Popes / Kings (with relgious power) had the Crusades.

Most religons follow thier holy books very loosely, if at all.

Besides, the "Love all, harm none" most religions preach in one form or another is completly ignored.

[Darth Cluich]

Indeed, we at the Church of the Divine Hamster are declaring a holy war on all non-hamster rodents. Those accursed guinea pigs are goin' down first! And, you mice out there...don't get too comfortable...

[Frostbeard]

Religions are not limited to their books. They have priests, prophets, holy men, and whatever else you choose to name a person of faith. People like these WROTE those books in the first place, so saying that they cannot dictate religon is laughable.

Muslim Clerics are decaring Holy War.

The Popes / Kings (with relgious power) had the Crusades.

Most religons follow thier holy books very loosely, if at all.

I guess what I meant to say was that the stated basis for these religions is a peaceful one, and killing is contrary to the teachings set out by those who founded the religion.

The clerics declaring Ji'had are not mainstream, from what I understand. Basically, they're forming a sect of Islam that isn't really Islam at all.

[LycanSpectre]

I guess what I meant to say was that the stated basis for these religions is a peaceful one, and killing is contrary to the teachings set out by those who founded the religion.

The clerics declaring Ji'had are not mainstream, from what I understand. Basically, they're forming a sect of Islam that isn't really Islam at all.

OK, but wer'e off topic now. We are not debating wether or not the religion condones killing, merely if using religious reasons to justify slaughter (or conversion) is justification enough.

[Hellcat]

Indeed, we at the Church of the Divine Hamster are declaring a holy war on all non-hamster rodents. Those accursed guinea pigs are goin' down first! And, you mice out there...don't get too comfortable...

Not if the cat gets you first sweetie :D I'll have the rest for dessert :droolbloo

[GoldShadowHunt]

I do not believe that any belief a person may or may not hold gives them any right to act in such a way that harms another. No way, no how.
I do not believe that your beliefs even give you the right to try to convert me. I dont care if you think you are going to hell if you dont. Until you can prove that your "God(s)" are the true diety(ies), keep them to yourself.
The first two sentences I agree with totally. But, how do you mean 'convert?' Do you mean that you don't want the Jehovah's witness ringing your doorbell at 8 a.m. on a Saturday, or do you mean you don't even want someone to tell you about the religion.
I'm totally okay with someone EXPLAINING a religion to me. example: My close friend is wiccan. I'm more of an Agnostic, but was raised in a Christian household...needless to say that my mother isn't happy about my religious choices... Anyway, I like to know my friend's take on religion and why she thinks it's the right one.
I think that understanding another religion leads to an acceptance of differing viewpoints, which is obviously what humanity needs if we're going to survive for another thousand years.

[LycanSpectre]

I'm totally okay with someone EXPLAINING a religion to me. example: My close friend is wiccan. I'm more of an Agnostic, but was raised in a Christian household...needless to say that my mother isn't happy about my religious choices... Anyway, I like to know my friend's take on religion and why she thinks it's the right one.

Explaining is fine, as long as I am willing to hear about it. Telling me I'm going to hell unless I do X, Y, and Z is not fine. Harassing me about my religious chioices is not fine. Discriminating against me because of my religion is also not fine. Basically, dont try to shove your religion down my throaght, and I'll be happy.

I dont think that I would consider explaining a religion an attempt at conversion.

[LV426]

Crimes committed in the name of God and Religion

http://religion_crimes.trip od.com/


News About crimes commited by reglious leaders and people in the name of GOD

http://www.geocities.com/religion_crimes/

[Wolffy13]

Explaining is fine, as long as I am willing to hear about it. Telling me I'm going to hell unless I do X, Y, and Z is not fine. Harassing me about my religious chioices is not fine. Discriminating against me because of my religion is also not fine. Basically, dont try to shove your religion down my throaght, and I'll be happy.

Agreed. You shouldn't be harassed about it.

[Nightmare GenoReaper]

Anyway, what you believe in is upto you, no one can change the way you think completely