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LV426
02-17-2004, 01:56 AM
Courts consider Texas death row retardation claims (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/02/16/deathrow.retardation/index.html)


AUSTIN, Texas (AP) -- In the year and a half since the U.S. Supreme Court ruled mentally retarded inmates cannot be executed, more than 40 death row cases were delayed or sent back for review in Texas -- leaving appellate courts in a quandary.

Death penalty supporters wonder if inmates are trying to delay justice by jamming the courts with new claims of mental retardation. Meanwhile, critics of the state's capital punishment system say the numbers point to dozens of people who may be ineligible for execution.

Both sides agree, however, that the state Legislature should change Texas law to decide mental retardation earlier in death row cases, reducing the burden on federal and state appeals courts.

"Texas has no system in place, and what you have is chaos," said Steve Hall, director of StandDown Texas, which opposes the death penalty.

The high court's ruling in June 2002 protected the severely mentally retarded, and most states have followed nationally accepted guidelines that define retardation as significantly below-average intellect combined with low "adaptive" skills at such things as communicating and taking care of oneself.

But when drawing the line between inmates with low intelligence and those who are retarded, states have disagreed, making it easier to get off death row in some states and harder in others.

Lawmakers in Texas tried to address the issue last year but couldn't agree on whether retardation should be determined before or after the guilty phase of a trial.

According to the Texas Defender Service, the state Court of Criminal Appeals has sent 37 cases back to trial courts for hearings. Four cases were remanded by the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans.

Most cases sent back to lower courts have yet to be completed, said Jim Marcus, executive director of the Texas Defender Service.

Death row inmate Johnny Paul Penry's case was one of the state's most high-profile mental retardation claims.

Convicted of killing a woman in 1979 and sentenced to die, Penry remains on death row after being sentenced to death three times.

The U.S. Supreme court had overturned his conviction because evidence of mental retardation wasn't considered in trial court. Penry was tried again, and the death sentence was thrown out in 2001. But, the next year, a jury sentenced him to death.

Dianne Clements, president of the victims rights group Justice For All, said it's difficult not having a clear state definition of mental retardation.

"These defendants are taking every opportunity they can to remove themselves from death row," Clements said.

There are about 450 prisoners on death row in Texas, officials said.

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In other news regarding the death penalty



Supreme Court will revisit execution of teenage killers (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/26/scotus.death.penalty/index.html)
By Bill Mears
CNN Washington Bureau
Monday, January 26, 2004 Posted: 2:21 PM EST (1921 GMT)


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Supreme Court Monday agreed to again decide the constitutionality of executing people who were juveniles at the time they committed murder.

The justices will consider the Missouri case of Christopher Simmons, who was 17 at the time of a murder-robbery. The state Supreme Court overturned his death sentence last year, saying the execution of those under 18 violated the Constitution's ban on "cruel and unusual punishment."

Missouri officials then appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court asking the law be upheld.

In accepting the Simmons case, the high court said it will reopen the question of whether executing very young killers violates the Constitution's ban on "cruel and unusual punishment." Currently, states that allow the death penalty may impose it on killers who were 16 or 17 at the time of their crimes.

The case continues a contentious debate over the death penalty -- both who belongs on death row, and how it should be carried out.

The 5-4 conservative majority on the current Court has typically upheld capital punishment, but two years ago the justices did outlaw executing the mentally retarded who are convicted of crimes that carry the death penalty. (Full story)

The four more liberal justices -- John Paul Stevens, David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Stephen Breyer -- have long spoken out against the practice of executing teenage killers. In a strongly worded joint statement last year, they labeled it a "shameful practice" and a "relic of the past ... inconsistent with evolving standards of decency in a civilized society."

The issue now for the nation's high court is twofold, say legal experts: Whether public opinion on how the death penalty is carried out has changed, and whether teenage killers, in much the same way as the mentally retarded, have the capacity to fully comprehend their actions.

The Supreme Court in 1989 upheld executing those under 18 at the time of their crimes. Only the United States and a handful of other countries allow execution of juvenile killers, and death penalty opponents argue that such executions violate not only the Constitution but an international treaty signed by the United States. (Full story)

According to Victor Streib, an Ohio Northern University law professor who issues an annual report on the issue, 20 states, not including Missouri, have laws for executing juvenile killers, but the practice is declining. 14 juvenile offenders were sentenced to death in 1999, seven in 2001, four in 2002, and two last year.

Texas has executed 13 young killers since capital punishment was reinstated in 1976.


Christopher Simmons
According to the Death Penalty Information Center, there are now 82 inmates on death row nationwide for crimes committed when they were under 18, according to an Associated Press report. States have put to death 22 such inmates in recent years.

The issue gained national attention last year when Lee Boyd Malvo, convicted by a Virginia jury in one of the 2002 Washington-area sniper shootings, was spared the death penalty. He was 17 at the time of his arrest. His adult co-conspirator, John Muhammad, was sentenced to die for a separate sniper killing.

In the Missouri case, Christopher Simmons was convicted of the 1993 murder of Shirley Crook. Her body was found in the Meramec River in St. Louis County, and had been tied with electric cable, leather straps and duct tape, with bruises on her body and fractured ribs.

Simmons' family and attorneys claimed he suffered from severe mental and physical abuse from his stepfather.

Oral arguments in the will likely be heard this fall. The case is Roper v. Simmons, case no. 03-0633.




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Now I am all for the death penalty and frankly I don't care if the moron that was sentenced to die hasn't got two brain cells to rub together. What is the sense in allowing retarded and mentally impaired individuals to escape the death penalty just because they are retarded and mentally impaired. In fact it would behoove society to get rid of these sub standard humans especially since they have proven that they are a menace to society. On the side of the minors I believe that it depends on the age of the minor. If someone is capablle of acknowledging and recognizing their actions and as such commit a crime that results in a murder, then that person deserves to be judged as an adult. A 17 year old man who is capable of committing a murder robbery is perfectly capable of being put to death without it being cruel and unusual punishment. Cruel and unusual is tying a man to a truck and dragging him over broken glass and sharp shards of metal. Death is not cruel unless you make it cruel. And instead of letting these people sit on death row for years, the death penalty needs to be acted upon as soon as possible.If the governor isn't capable of pardoning them and issuing a full release, then I say inject them, fry them, hang them, shoot them, whatever is neccesary to stop them from breathing my air. If you commit the crime, and get caught, then you get to pay the price.

There was this guy outside the supermarket today trying to get people to sign a petition to reject the 3 strikes bill for non felony offenses. He sits there and tells me that people who steal money or break in and steal people's things, or commit a crime and get caught not once, not twice, but three times, shouldn't have to stay in jail for life. Well I agree, why should I pay for their criminal ass to watch tv and eat three meals a day and have shelter, shoot the fuckers. Because if you can't learn with three chances that committing crimes is wrong then you are an idiot and need to be removed from the gene pool.

P.S. This should go in the Politics forum but unfortunately we don't have one... Yet! :cool:

Xzengrim
02-17-2004, 02:07 AM
"I hear that in Texas they just started executing retarded people. WHat's that like? 'Come on Timmy, go sit on Santa's lap. KZZZZZKKK!!'"
~Robin Williams

"Yeah, but there's a limit .... there's such a thing as just too retarded. If they sit the guy in the chair and he's like "Where are we going?" ...That's too far."
~Jim Norton

My own opinion is that retarded people should have to follow the laws just like everyone else. And if they break the laws, they should have to endure the punishment... just like everyone else. This isn't a question of personal behavior... it's about the sanctity and safety of society.

LV426
02-17-2004, 03:51 PM
"I hear that in Texas they just started executing retarded people. WHat's that like? 'Come on Timmy, go sit on Santa's lap. KZZZZZKKK!!'"
~Robin Williams

"Yeah, but there's a limit .... there's such a thing as just too retarded. If they sit the guy in the chair and he's like "Where are we going?" ...That's too far."
~Jim Norton

My own opinion is that retarded people should have to follow the laws just like everyone else. And if they break the laws, they should have to endure the punishment... just like everyone else. This isn't a question of personal behavior... it's about the sanctity and safety of society.
Exactly Grim, I mean they are on death row for a reason. It's not like we just said, "well you are a retard, let's kill you". These people committed serious crimes. So retarded or not they need to receive their punishment.

MorganaFang
02-17-2004, 09:09 PM
This is just me because I'm an incredibly cruel person but I think life would be a lot better sometimes if retarded people displaying "unfavorable" traits are put to death in the first place. I don't know I just can't deal with retard people that well or even the mentally challenged.

LV426
02-17-2004, 09:30 PM
This is just me because I'm an incredibly cruel person but I think life would be a lot better sometimes if retarded people displaying "unfavorable" traits are put to death in the first place. I don't know I just can't deal with retard people that well or even the mentally challenged.
Well I would like to take it a step futher and have testing done onf fetuses to detect that kind of abnormality before birth where possible and have the pregnancy terminated. Having non-productive members of society that eventually become a burden for everyone is just ridiculous.

kat
02-17-2004, 10:24 PM
If you're going to do that, then how low are you going to set the bar? IQ is only an average, and if we're going to be rude/cruel about it, I don't want anyone under 130.

Also, "productive members of society" is subjective. If we're only keeping those, then I would wipe out every single video-gamer and loser nerd out there.

</realistic cruelty>

kaycee
02-17-2004, 10:36 PM
If those in question are truly mentaly retarded, then they should have been placed in a mental institution, not in prison on death row.

LV426
02-17-2004, 10:39 PM
If those in question are truly mentaly retarded, then they should have been placed in a mental institution, not in prison on death row.

The thing is kaycee that these people who are retarded are dangerous to themselves and others. They are serious criminals who have committed murder and a psychiatric facility is not equipped to deal with a truly dangerous criminal. They didn't receive the death penalty because they were retarded, they received the death penalty because they killed people.

kaycee
02-17-2004, 10:50 PM
The thing is kaycee that these people who are retarded are dangerous to themselves and others. They are serious criminals who have committed murder and a psychiatric facility is not equipped to deal with a truly dangerous criminal. They didn't receive the death penalty because they were retarded, they received the death penalty because they killed people.


I don't see retarded people walking around alone everyday. Retarded people are under the care of others. Why weren't these killer retards under someone's care? Anyone who gives birth to mentally ill children (severly at least) almost have to commit them to institutions because they can't care for them themselves. If they do, they still aren't allowed to roam about, let alone kill someone. There is always the danger of them hurting themselves as you said.

LV426
02-17-2004, 11:08 PM
killer retards

LMFAO

Ok I just had to laugh at that kaycee.

In answer to the question, there are many levels of retardation and in some cases they encourage independant living. The movie I am Sam was a good representation of this. The people in question were living on their own and independantly and yet were still lacking in all of their mental faculties. There have been instances where people with severe retardation and or mental diseases have been released from psychiatric facilities with little more than a weeks worth of medication and a few dollars because there is no one to care for them and they have no insurance. These people have committed crimes, and even murder. They know what they do is wrong but they are incapble of preventing themselves from committing crimes. In some cases medication keeps them under control but when there is no one to make sure that they take their medication, and no one to make sure that they are doing the right thing, and no one to tell them the difference between wrong and right, then they become dangerous to themselves and others.

kaycee
02-17-2004, 11:27 PM
LMFAO

Ok I just had to laugh at that kaycee.

In answer to the question, there are many levels of retardation and in some cases they encourage independant living. The movie I am Sam was a good representation of this. The people in question were living on their own and independantly and yet were still lacking in all of their mental faculties. There have been instances where people with severe retardation and or mental diseases have been released from psychiatric facilities with little more than a weeks worth of medication and a few dollars because there is no one to care for them and they have no insurance. These people have committed crimes, and even murder. They know what they do is wrong but they are incapble of preventing themselves from committing crimes. In some cases medication keeps them under control but when there is no one to make sure that they take their medication, and no one to make sure that they are doing the right thing, and no one to tell them the difference between wrong and right, then they become dangerous to themselves and others.


"I am Sam" was a great movie. IMO, if 'Sam' had commited murder, I don't think prison let alone the death penalty would be appropriate.
I think he should be institionalized. I think the state should become his care giver if there is no one else to care for him. Retarded people should not be held responsible for things they do. They're retarded for christ sake. They can't always think straight or make the right decisions. Sometimes never. Therefore they should never be left alone.

Now, take June from Benny and June. June was retarded, but could for the most part care for herself and be left alone. But there were times when she couldn't. She had her spells where she flipped. If she had commited murder during those times, she would be commited not put to death.

Even those with no insurance are commited. They are taken care of by the state. Actually if you think about it. If they really are retarded, then they automatically get insurance. SSI or disability or some shit.

Anyway, there is no reason for them to be left alone to run around killing people. If they are, then it's the states fault for not careing for them.

LV426
02-18-2004, 12:06 AM
"I am Sam" was a great movie. IMO, if 'Sam' had commited murder, I don't think prison let alone the death penalty would be appropriate.
I think he should be institionalized. I think the state should become his care giver if there is no one else to care for him. Retarded people should not be held responsible for things they do. They're retarded for christ sake. They can't always think straight or make the right decisions. Sometimes never. Therefore they should never be left alone.

Now, take June from Benny and June. June was retarded, but could for the most part care for herself and be left alone. But there were times when she couldn't. She had her spells where she flipped. If she had commited murder during those times, she would be commited not put to death.

Even those with no insurance are commited. They are taken care of by the state. Actually if you think about it. If they really are retarded, then they automatically get insurance. SSI or disability or some shit.

Anyway, there is no reason for them to be left alone to run around killing people. If they are, then it's the states fault for not careing for them.

They should be taken care of but you would be surprised at how many mentally challenged people are living on the street. Some are homeless, and others are abandoned by their families with just enough money to get by. They have fallen through the cracks and have no concept of how to function in a normal fashion. They know nothing about nutrition, personal hygeine, or taking care of themselves. They end up on the street taking drugs or drinking, they become prostitutes, or just sleep in cardboard boxes. They have sex with others and end up having kids and then the kids, which may be normal, end up on the street and homeless because their parents haven't a clue.

I know this first hand. I used to work for Volunteers of America which is a program established to try and help those people get off the street and get jobs, and teach them how to function. It's sad and unfortunately those with mental disabilities who end up with no one who cares about them, have taken a criminal path. There are some that are less retarded than others but they still take a path of crime.

kaycee
02-18-2004, 12:26 AM
They should be taken care of but you would be surprised at how many mentally challenged people are living on the street. Some are homeless, and others are abandoned by their families with just enough money to get by. They have fallen through the cracks and have no concept of how to function in a normal fashion. They know nothing about nutrition, personal hygeine, or taking care of themselves. They end up on the street taking drugs or drinking, they become prostitutes, or just sleep in cardboard boxes. They have sex with others and end up having kids and then the kids, which may be normal, end up on the street and homeless because their parents haven't a clue.

I know this first hand. I used to work for Volunteers of America which is a program established to try and help those people get off the street and get jobs, and teach them how to function. It's sad and unfortunately those with mental disabilities who end up with no one who cares about them, have taken a criminal path. There are some that are less retarded than others but they still take a path of crime.


Retarded prostitutes? Come on man, that's just sick.:p

MorganaFang
02-18-2004, 06:38 AM
Retarded prostitutes? Come on man, that's just sick.:p

They do exist, and I wouldn't call the prostitutes, mores retards aren't even aware that they could be doing something terribly wrong. A lot of times people take advantage of them.

J.L.R.
02-18-2004, 07:43 AM
What actually amazes me, is the fact that as soon as the statement that a murderer on death row could be mentally retarded, that you now have all of these claims.

Seriously, it is like the parent who drownds her own children and then cries momentary insanity, and gets off.

I had an uncle who was mentally retarded. It wasn't severe, and in fact he could work at a job and everything, BUT he had to have some supervision, because he was still mentally a child, even though he proved that he could do things by himself. There were things that his mind could not understand.

As Lycan said, these people on death row are on death row for a reason, and if they were mentally difficient enough to not understand the gravity of their crimes, then that sort of mental retardation would have been caught LOOOONG before they were on death row. I mean my uncle wasn't severely retarded, but you could still tell he was.

These people may be stupid, but still if a guy or girl has the brians to pick up a knife and stab a person to death, or pick up a gun, work it correctly, and murder an entire family, or rob a bank, shoot down a cop, and the list goes on, then I think they are fully aware of the crimes they are commiting.

To me, it is just another way for guilty people, to pass blame on somebody else. It is no longer their parents, it is just they are retarded. ARGH!!!

Darth Cluich
02-18-2004, 10:10 AM
The argument that a retarded killer has a child's understanding of right and wrong should not change the fact that he has committed murder. Cripes, my girlfriend's six-year-old daughter knows that taking something that doesn't belong to you or hitting someone is wrong, let alone killing someone. Retarded or not, a murderer is still a murderer.

Also important is where you draw the line, as someone else has already pointed out here. When you start drawing subjective lines with the law -- and especially something like the death penalty -- you're playing with some serious fire. If we're going to have the death penalty, it should be applied evenly and in a concise, easily understood manner. And by that I don't mean we should be executing equal numbers or percentages of each race of criminal, as some believe. What I mean is, quite simply, if you commit a certain offense -- first-degree murder, for instance -- you get executed. There's a strict definition of what first-degree murder is (conditions such as intent, malice of forethought, et al.), and it should not matter who or what you are when determining the appropriate penalty under the law.

Ronin
02-18-2004, 01:34 PM
When I think of a "retarded" person, I think of an individual with impaired speech, maybe mobility, impaired brain functions, drooling, etc. I'm not trying to sound cruel or dispassionate, but that's the image that comes to mind when I hear "retard."

I can't even fathom a "retard" as I have just outlined above committing a serious, malicious crime such as murder. I think those sentenced to die seize every opportunity to avoid their punishment, and for them the stakes can sink no lower. If pretending to be "retarded" can get them off they will do it. That's not to generalize every case out there since each case varies as much as the individual that committed them.

I don't have any first-hand experience with working with retarded homeless people, nor do I have any official legal authorization to comment on how the justice system works. But I can't believe that truly retarded people are the ones committing such brutal crimes. And I think what's happening here is they're taking advantage of the state of mental illness to use as a levy to help better their chances of avoiding punishment. The level and very definition of retardation is being severely stretched to the point where if you can't add 2+2 then that makes you retarded and that's just not the case. There are different levels of retardation as someone already stated, some more severe than others, and I believe the less severe instances is the card they're playing in this debate.

When's the last time you heard of truly retarded person killing someone? I mean retarded in the true sense of the word as I first described in my first paragraph?

-R

Darth Cluich
02-18-2004, 01:37 PM
When I think of a "retarded" person, I think of an individual with impaired speech, maybe mobility, impaired brain functions, drooling, etc. I'm not trying to sound cruel or dispassionate, but that's the image that comes to mind when I hear "retard."

...

When's the last time you heard of truly retarded person killing someone? I mean retarded in the true sense of the word as I first described in my first paragraph?

-R

You're desciribing someone who's practically brain dead, not retarded.

Ronin
02-18-2004, 01:40 PM
I think not. Brain dead is the inability to do anything but lie there and smile at the ceiling. Retards can move, talk, and function to a limited extent as I've already described.

-R

Xzengrim
02-18-2004, 01:45 PM
Augh! I don't CARE if they have the mind of a child. I don't care if they don't know right from wrong. If these people are out there committing crimes for which the penalty is DEATH, I don't think we should go easy on them. These are the sort of people who need to be put away or permanently dispatched. They are inherently dangerous, and there are few ways to alleviate that danger.

Darth Cluich
02-18-2004, 01:49 PM
Augh! I don't CARE if they have the mind of a child. I don't care if they don't know right from wrong. If these people are out there committing crimes for which the penalty is DEATH, I don't think we should go easy on them. These are the sort of people who need to be put away or permanently dispatched. They are inherently dangerous, and there are few ways to alleviate that danger.

But the law draws a line when a person is unable to tell right from wrong, which makes them incompetent to stand trial, let alone be dealt the death penalty. That's the point opponents of the death penalty being applied to retarded people are trying to use. However, my point was that retarded people do know right from wrong (in the vast majority of cases) and, hence, should stand trial and face the same penalty as a "normal" person.

kat
02-18-2004, 01:55 PM
I think that what it comes down to is what the death penalty is intended for. Is it to punish the murderer or to benefit society by removing a blemish? I've always considered it to be the latter, so I see no point in letting a retarded murderer live. He's still a blemish, only now we have to pay to protect society from him.

kaycee
02-19-2004, 04:09 PM
Ronin described retarded the same way I see a retarded person. Those are the handicapped people who I think should not be left to roam about and do whatever, and they aren't. Those people are under the care of others. Now these retarded people who are on death row must be those with a low IQ. I don't consider that retarded, just simply not very sharp.

If they were seriously retarded, a doctor would have confirmed that during their trial and it would have been obvious anyway. I say they are just lazy uneducated nothings who refuse to help themselves. Not retarded.

EmberClaw
02-22-2004, 08:21 PM
Maybe Im just evil but I think all people who are retarded should be put to death. They are naught but a burden to society, I mean what would happen to overpopulation if all the retards of the world where killed?Good things I assure you.

kaycee
02-22-2004, 11:20 PM
Maybe Im just evil but I think all people who are retarded should be put to death. They are naught but a burden to society, I mean what would happen to overpopulation if all the retards of the world where killed?Good things I assure you.

That's not a very nice thing to say. Would you feel that way if you had a retarded sibling? I know a woman who is retarded, and I love her to death. She is the mother of one of my co-workers and I'd cry my eyes out if anything happened to her. I'd also kick anyone's ass if they ever said anything mean to her. She's retarded, but she has feelings just like everyone else does.

GarouX
02-25-2004, 12:36 AM
Execution is Murder,so i guess everyone is a sinner.
there's no justice in this weird world.
ah hell,i'm all for it tho hehe.

LOBO REY
02-25-2004, 08:04 AM
There is a diffrence between Killin' and murder. Muder implies inocens, killing implies guilt. You kill murders not murder them. An eye for an eye that is the law. Now I'm from the great state of Texas. I was raised to belive you take a life you lose your life. In fact lower the age to 15 for convicted murders. Kill them before they get on a roll.

kat
02-25-2004, 08:25 AM
"You kill murders not kill them."

Wise words. Wise words indeed!

Darth Cluich
02-25-2004, 10:20 AM
"You kill murders not kill them."

Wise words. Wise words indeed!

I concur. I am in awe of his astounding intellect. :notworthy

LOBO REY
02-26-2004, 07:55 AM
Alright cobroncitos, that was a type-o. You can't murder a murder only kill them. You take an inocent life you forfiet yours. Human rights Midicons like y'all are what makes a simple plan complacated. I may be young but I support the Death Penalty age limit to be lowerd to 15. Below that is pushing it, besides we should scrap these hijos de putas before they get on a role.

Darth Cluich
02-26-2004, 09:34 AM
...besides we should scrap these hijos de puntas before they get on a role.

C'mon...if you're going to use Spanish, use it correctly. Hijos de puntas? Sons of points? What the hell? It's hijos de putas (sons of bitches). And I assume you mean that you can't murder a murderer. Sheesh...posts like that make my brain hurt. Take comfort, Lobo, in knowing that you might be able to use this to get out of being executed yourself someday.

LOBO REY
03-01-2004, 07:50 AM
C'mon...if you're going to use Spanish, use it correctly. Hijos de puntas? Sons of points? What the hell? It's hijos de putas (sons of bitches). And I assume you mean that you can't murder a murderer. Sheesh...posts like that make my brain hurt. Take comfort, Lobo, in knowing that you might be able to use this to get out of being executed yourself someday.
It would help if I took the time to read what I write. Ok, attack my poor grammar and spelling it dosen't bother me. You spend more time attacking that than you do my position. The legal age one can be sentence to death should be lowerd to 15 years old. Now as for retardation, I belive if they are aware (like Carl in Sling Blade knew he was going to kill) of the fact that they took some ones life THEY SHOULD ONLY BE KILLED IF THEY ARE STILL A THREAT. BUT IF it was an accident like lenny in "Of Mice And Men" no they should not be charged with murder. For guilt can be worse than Death.

Darth Cluich
03-02-2004, 03:52 PM
Now as for retardation, I belive if they are aware (like Carl in Sling Blade knew he was going to kill) of the fact that they took some ones life THEY SHOULD ONLY BE KILLED IF THEY ARE STILL A THREAT. BUT IF it was an accident like lenny in "Of Mice And Men" no they should not be charged with murder.


If it was an accident, it is not first-degree murder and, thus, is not punishable by death anyway.