Absolutes

[AlphaMale]

Are there any principles in the universe that are absolute, that are true all the time regardless of perception?

[blueeyes]

Let's see...
If you drink too much, you'll wake up to regret it.
There's no limit to the stupidity we've come to know and love.
Things will always get worse, no matter how well you prepare
And there's always another chocolate.

Most of the stuff in your Physics books accurate, too, in the general sense.

[DarkWolf]

Life.
Death.
Yourself.

[AlphaMale]

What about ethical absolutes? Aesthetical Absolutes?

[DarkWolf]

No such thing, really, they're about perception and opinion as much as anything else.

Cognito ergo sum - I think therefore I am.

I exist, one absolute.

I am alive to exist: Second absolute.

I will die. Third and final absolute.

[blueeyes]

Not really. Even infantile cannabalism is considered acceptable in some cultures, and I'd say there aren't many things (there are some) less acceptable in ours.
Aesthetics change from one group to the next in one culture. Humans in general prefer the color blue, while people in the high economic classes prefer red. I can't stand rap, while other people hate J-Rock. It's all who you are.

[DarkWolf]

Not really. Even infantile cannabalism is considered acceptable in some cultures, and I'd say there aren't many things (there are some) less acceptable in ours.
Aesthetics change from one group to the next in one culture. Humans in general prefer the color blue, while people in the high economic classes prefer red. I can't stand rap, while other people hate J-Rock. It's all who you are.
So that would be a no for both then?

:confused:

[DarkHunter]

Life.
Death.
Me taking over the world.
The eventual outbreak of vampires and therians (overrunning humanity)
Everything burns and everything freezes.
Every significant force in the universe has a counter, an opposite.

[AlphaMale]

And what about epistemoligcal absolutes? Can we honestly claim that the things we hold as knowledge are "truth"?

[DarkWolf]

And what about epistemoligcal absolutes? Can we honestly claim that the things we hold as knowledge are "truth"?
No.


Seeing a pattern?

[AlphaMale]

Darkwolf,

Are you meaning that there is no truth, or that humans are incapable of recognizing it?

[DarkWolf]

I mean that everything is subject to perception, so if your definition of absolute means without perception than every form of philosophy on this Earth is exempt - philosophy itself is based on personal experience and perception. You can't go searching for "absolute truths" in a section specifically for opinion (which are neither fact nor truth).

You are alive, and you will die. Everything else can be subject to perception/manipulation.

[AlphaMale]

everything is subject to perception

So perception dictates reality except in the fields of life and death?

so if your definition of absolute means without perception than every form of philosophy on this Earth is exempt

So let's move beyond philosophy. One of the posters mentioned things out of a physics book. Are they subject to perception?

opinion (which are neither fact nor truth).

But an opinion can be valid or invalid, sound or unsound. That is they are either formed from good reasoning skills or poor reasoning skills (validity), either with true or untrue premises (soundness).

[DarkWolf]

You're missing the point. You are looking for things that are absolutely rock solid undeniable by every form and trait of human reasoning, the maximum intelligence our sentient minds can possibly produce to still come up with the "absolute truth" and undeniable fact.

Physics, reality, perception, philosophy, science, occult and so on: are not sooth entities. They are under scrutiny, opinions denying their existence or claiming the misconceptions, can shake the reasoning behind these things. Because these opinions, widely accepted and considered valid, can make logical assumptions over something we honestly know little about, means that we cannot say these things are absolute.

So while I DOUBT perception dictates reality the annoyance of it is: NOBODY CAN SAY. Nothing we can comprehend can determine truth behind it and so, it ultimately is not true until proven so. It just isn't called a lie either.

Until you gain Godlike omniscience you will never know what theories are, and what theories aren't, absolute.

So in light of this I'd settle for only one opinion of "cognito ergo sum" and derive further theories from that. But even so, there are flaws that doubt the validity of that as well.

Until you are God, you'll never know.

[blueeyes]

I was the one who posted the physics, and it can be can be subject to perception. For example, not all heavy things go down. Even the things we see as laws, which are supposed to be absolute, can be ignored in some sections. For example, nothing with mass can accelerate to the speed of light... but electrons do it regularly. If you give a scientist the right materials, they could make a heavy object go straight up away from the earth (hint: involves holding impossibly dense substance above the object).
Even life and death are all subject to perception. Early man thought death was when the person stopped breathing and life was when you were born (both of which were right, if not technically). Now we know better.

Also, opinions can differ from one perspective to the next, which makes them something other than absolute.
Now, don't make me quote MiB and a few science teachers.

[Cephas]

One example of truths is how we will talk to any aliens that we might come across. For instance, many of the mathematical rules will be universally true, eg 1+2=3, 3-1=2, 3-2=1.
Such messages would be the first things we would say and receive from other beings, so you could say they were universal.

[DarkWolf]

Perception theory means that simply because you see it, doesn't make it true.

Maths is a human invention for logical understanding. It could also be those aliens are likeminded, and thus have similar inventions. In order to derive a universal truth, you'd need to be able to ask the common slug if they can count. "Absolute" means now flaws, no entity, living or dead, can even remotely think of an opinion against it. Anything alive abides by it. That is "absolute truth".

[AlphaMale]

Maths is a human invention

I tend to think we discover math; we didn't invent it.

In order to derive a universal truth, you'd need to be able to ask the common slug if they can count.

I don't think the slugs ability to count or lack thereof has any bearing on the absolute of math. In order for 1+1 to be an absolute, it must always equal 2. The fact the some animals can't count is irrelevant.

If you have one slug, then acquire another, how does the lack of counting ability on the slugs part detract from the concept that you have two slugs?

Thank you Cephas from bringing up math. I think there are absolutes and that one doesn't have to be god to pick up on a few of them. Every possible question that any of us could ever fathom has a right answer. What we call "truth" is how well those answers coincide with actual reality. Sometimes we get the answers wrong; however, that doesn't mean there wasn't an answer to begin with. Everything that exists has a nature (a set of characteristics that defines the thing). Sometimes we're incorrect when we attempt to define a thing's nature, but that doesn't mean there was no nature.
Reality exists outside of human perception. Human perception is a byproduct of reality, not the originator thereof.

[blueeyes]

Mix a teaspoon of sugar and a teaspoon of water. Now, tell me how many teaspoons of solution you have. Yah, 1 and 1 doesn't always equal two.

[DarkWolf]

Mix a teaspoon of sugar and a teaspoon of water. Now, tell me how many teaspoons of solution you have. Yah, 1 and 1 doesn't always equal two.
Precisely.

And besides maths was an example, you saying you "tend to think" we discovered math instead of inventing it indicates fully my point: It is a thought, not an undeniable truth.

[AlphaMale]

Mix a teaspoon of sugar and a teaspoon of water. Now, tell me how many teaspoons of solution you have. Yah, 1 and 1 doesn't always equal two.

That's not a simple math equation. It's a chemical reaction that follows it's own different set of absolutes.

you saying you "tend to think" we discovered math instead of inventing it indicates fully my point: It is a thought, not an undeniable truth.

Poor choice of words on my part. I should have simply said, "we discover math, we don't invent it." Humans didn't invent squares or triangles, or concepts such as surface area or volume. They existed before humans came on the scene. We discovered how to figure out surface area, how to figure out volume. Like electricity (discovered not invented), these concepts existed before we learned how to use and harness them.

[blueeyes]

If you'd prefer a better example... I'll ask a friend about how you can add one and one and get 0.

[Voicavamp4life]

letter Are there any principles in the universe that are absolute, that are true all the time regardless of perception?

Yes, There are absolutes. Such as, Everything that is born must some day die. That we will always decieve ourselves without knowing it, That everybody has something they regret, that everyone has some small victory that they are proud of, and the assurance that they are not alone.

Voica :)

[DarkWolf]

If you'd prefer a better example... I'll ask a friend about how you can add one and one and get 0.
That I'd like to see. *is interested by those things*

[shadowhound]

letter

Yes, There are absolutes. Such as, Everything that is born must some day die. That we will always decieve ourselves without knowing it, That everybody has something they regret, that everyone has some small victory that they are proud of, and the assurance that they are not alone.

Voica :)

All but your first example are opinions, and even that can be contested.

'October, 1999; 250-million-year-old bacteria were found in ancient sea salt beneath Carlsbad, New Mexico. The microscopic organisms were revived in a laboratory after being in 'suspended animation', encased in a hard-shelled spore, for an estimated 250 million years. The species has not been identified, but is referred to as strain 2-9-3, or B. permians.'


Posted by DarkWolf
"Absolute" means now flaws, no entity, living or dead, can even remotely think of an opinion against it. Anything alive abides by it. That is "absolute truth".

Yet at this moment there is a thread going on the possibility of imortality. So by that definition only something we take so for granted that we don't even think about it could be considered an absolute. I sure can't think of a way refute 'I am alive,' though.

[Startraveler]

For example, nothing with mass can accelerate to the speed of light... but electrons do it regularly.

No, they don't...

[blueeyes]

"Electron energy states are quantizied, which means that there are no decimal values for the orbital level of an electron. An electron therefore moves from one point in space to another instantly. In fact, experimental evidence supports this."

Speed = Distance / change in time

Although the distance is small, change in time is equal to zero. Allowing for experimental inaccuracy, the electron had to have been moving at exacly c.

And Shadowhound, I'm sorry to say that bacteria aren't born.

[shadowhound]

And Shadowhound, I'm sorry to say that bacteria aren't born.
lol
I should have put that in response to one of the other times someone said that death was an absolute. However, it does apply. If bacteria can survive in 'suspended animation' why not a more advanced life form that does get born? Of course a human would not survive being frozen unless specialy prepared but science is fast making possible what in the past has only existed in sci-fi books.

Here's a link to an intresting webpage http://www.cryonics.org/refs.html

[DarkWolf]

Perception theory, who says that those websites, those results, are true and real and not imagination? Who is to say your sensory input from your surroundings is due to reality and not manipulation (which has been achieved before)?

You can't. So the "I think therefore I am" is the only "absolute" I'm willing to accept, and like I already said, I'll base my opinions of life and death from that absolute.

[Cephas]

What about the passage of time?
Time will always exist, even if there is no-one to observe it.
The only reason we believe time was created with the universe is because there is no evidence that time existed before then, but it doesn't mean it didn't.

[shadowhound]

What about the passage of time?
Time will always exist, even if there is no-one to observe it.
The only reason we believe time was created with the universe is because there is no evidence that time existed before then, but it doesn't mean it didn't.

You could say that time does not actually exist. Every moment is 'now' and time is just a measurement of the moments that have past and those that will come. I know zilch about whatever theories exist concerning time, so there might be a good reason why the above does not apply, but as was discussed earlier, theories are not absolute.

[shadowhound]

Perception theory, who says that those websites, those results, are true and real and not imagination? Who is to say your sensory input from your surroundings is due to reality and not manipulation (which has been achieved before)?

You can't. So the "I think therefore I am" is the only "absolute" I'm willing to accept, and like I already said, I'll base my opinions of life and death from that absolute.

I agree. That just might be your answer, AlphaMale.

[Startraveler]

"Electron energy states are quantizied, which means that there are no decimal values for the orbital level of an electron. An electron therefore moves from one point in space to another instantly. In fact, experimental evidence supports this."

Speed = Distance / change in time

Although the distance is small, change in time is equal to zero. Allowing for experimental inaccuracy, the electron had to have been moving at exacly c.

Electrons never travel at the speed of light because (as you pointed out) they have mass. What changes instantaneously during an energy level jump is the shape of the wave function describing the electron. The electron itself need not (and does not) travel at or faster than the speed of light.

[Nightmare GenoReaper]

This Topic is turning into a Big Brother Cult. The fact that "we can manipulate you, nothing is true, the party controls everything and tells you the truth and you will act like a colony of ants on those truths we tell you"

-_-

Darkwolf, ur new name should be Big Brother :D

I'm only kidding about this, but absolutes are hard to define. Simply put, the only absolute is

Survival

Everything wants to survive, to coltivate the species. Heck even the slug who can't even basic math will drink to that absolute


The problem i have with death as an aboslute is, death to most people means "never to live again", "cease exsitance". When really everything on this planet is reused. Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed. We are in a constant state of recycle, and before u pick this apart, let me give u an example.

"Well she's so fat, {she'll be pushin up daisies}". Dead on, lol. This is because the flower will grow off the nutrients from the decaying body. So in a sense, is the fat lady ever going to stop singing? If you catch my drift, cause that was a pun <.<

[shadowhound]

This Topic is turning into a Big Brother Cult. The fact that "we can manipulate you, nothing is true, the party controls everything and tells you the truth and you will act like a colony of ants on those truths we tell you"

-_-

Darkwolf, ur new name should be Big Brother :D

I'm only kidding about this, but absolutes are hard to define. Simply put, the only absolute is

Survival

Everything wants to survive, to coltivate the species. Heck even the slug who can't even basic math will drink to that absolute


The problem i have with death as an aboslute is, death to most people means "never to live again", "cease exsitance". When really everything on this planet is reused. Nothing is created, nothing is destroyed. We are in a constant state of recycle, and before u pick this apart, let me give u an example.

"Well she's so fat, {she'll be pushin up daisies}". Dead on, lol. This is because the flower will grow off the nutrients from the decaying body. So in a sense, is the fat lady ever going to stop singing? If you catch my drift, cause that was a pun <.<


What about people who commit suicide? They don't want to survive. Or murderers? Shooting people is not generally accepted as the best way to 'cultivate the species.' And how do you know that slug wants to survive? That is your perception, based on logic, reasoning, and observation. But is it an absolute?

[Nightmare GenoReaper]

What about people who commit suicide? They don't want to survive. Or murderers? Shooting people is not generally accepted as the best way to 'cultivate the species.' And how do you know that slug wants to survive? That is your perception, based on logic, reasoning, and observation. But is it an absolute?


The slug wants to survive because he wants to have SEX. Murders want to survive becuase they want to have SEX.
People who commit suicide do so because they did not have SEX, lol

But really, those are not exceptions. Murders cultivate the species by taking out the weak, and those who commit suicide, well, they are doing us ALL a favor cause they became weak. Or they made a weak choice. Either way, weakness was involved

Teacher - Ok class, how do we cultivate the species?
Children - By having sex and taking out the weak so they go not past their genes

Sex=Survival remember that they are one in the same.

[MorganaFang]

The slug wants to survive because he wants to have SEX. Murders want to survive becuase they want to have SEX.
People who commit suicide do so because they did not have SEX, lol

But really, those are not exceptions. Murders cultivate the species by taking out the weak, and those who commit suicide, well, they are doing us ALL a favor cause they became weak. Or they made a weak choice. Either way, weakness was involved

Teacher - Ok class, how do we cultivate the species?
Children - By having sex and taking out the weak so they go not past their genes

Sex=Survival remember that they are one in the same.
Reproduce, not just have sex, the act of sex itself is pointless... Jeeze... Reproduction is the desire to pass on genes and leave a "legacy". Sex is one solid act that holds no more meaning than just fucking. Animals get nothing more out of sex than the fact they humped.

[Nightmare GenoReaper]

Sorry i was trying to put it in a context in which that was completely understandable.
Besides, when you fuck, you leave your mark behind, ;) Thus it's survival ultimatly because you have helped your species survive

So there is a point to sex, because what does your reptilian brain tell you?
Survive, hump, survive, hump :D

when you have the basic of all animals thinking this, it's an absolute

[MorganaFang]

Sorry i was trying to put it in a context in which that was completely understandable.
Besides, when you fuck, you leave your mark behind, ;) Thus it's survival ultimatly because you have helped your species survive

So there is a point to sex, because what does your reptilian brain tell you?
Survive, hump, survive, hump :D

when you have the basic of all animals thinking this, it's an absolute
For those of us who get orgasm (Humans) sex can have a point other than reproduction. I know because I've survived such :D

[AlphaMale]

You can't. So the "I think therefore I am" is the only "absolute" I'm willing to accept, and like I already said, I'll base my opinions of life and death from that absolute.

DW, you have a good point in that the first perception we're aware of is our own consciousness, and I agree that it's an absolute. The trouble comes in indentifing things that exist outside one's immediate consciousness. The means of such identification is first perception, then processing (ie reason). It then follows if any step of the identification process is flawed (bad eyesight+faulty reasoning skills, for example), then the conclusion we reach as to the identity of an object in question is flawed. To even confuse the matter more, we are not always aware of such flaws and often proceed as if none existed. Thus it is difficult to determine if anything external to our tools of perception and interpretation is indeed absolute.

So let me ask a few questions (actually I'll answer them too and leave it up to any who disagree with the answers to speak up)
Are there things that exist outside human perception and reasoning?
-yes

Do those things have a nature that defines them?
-yes

Is it possible for humans to study those things and to understand their natures?
-for the most part

Are those things dependent on human perception for their existance?
-no

For example. Humans exist. Part of their nature is that their bodies require sustenance/nutrition. If that need is not met, the human will die. This is an absolute.

Here's another: Airplanes exist. Part of their nature is that they need proper maintenance and fuel to operate. If these needs are not met, the plane will not operate properly. This is an absolute.

Absolutes and the adherence to them keep reality working. To ignore an absolute is to ignore the nature of a thing, and that can be harmful from time to time. To ignore the absolute that a vial of hydorchloric acid will burn your skin, or that open flame will singe your hair is ignoring reality and bringing the risk of harm to yourself.