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kat
06-07-2004, 04:23 PM
Another ulcer for Cluich.


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I did not say anything yesterday about Ronald Reagan's death. The day a person dies he has a right to be left alone.

But yesterday is now history, and Reagan's legacy should not pass without comment. (http://www.juancole.com/2004_06_01_juancole_ archive.html#1086540 49412748319)

Reagan had an ability to project a kindly image, and was well liked personally by virtually everyone who knew him, apparently. But it always struck me that he was a mean man. I remember learning, in the late 1960s, of the impact Michael Harrington's The Other America had had on Johnson's War on Poverty. Harrington demonstrated that in the early 1960s there was still hunger in places like Appalachia, deriving from poverty. It was hard for middle class Americans to believe, and Lyndon Johnson, who represented many poor people himself, was galvanized to take action.

I remember seeing a tape of Reagan speaking in California from that era. He said that he had heard that some asserted there was hunger in America. He said it sarcastically. He said, "Sure there is; they're dieting!" or words to that effect. This handsome Hollywood millionnaire making fun of people so poor they sometimes went to bed hungry seemed to me monstrous. I remember his wealthy audience of suburbanites going wild with laughter and applause. I am still not entirely sure what was going on there. Did they think Harrington's and similar studies were lies? Did they blame the poor for being poor, and resent demands on them in the form of a few tax dollars, to address their hunger?

Then when he was president, at one point Reagan tried to cut federal funding for school lunches for the poor. He tried to have ketchup reclassified as a vegetable to save money. Senator Heinz gave a speech against this move. He said that ketchup is a condiment, not a vegetable, and that he should know.

The meanness was reflected, as many readers have noted, in Reagan's "blame the victim" approach to the AIDS crisis. His inability to come to terms with the horrible human tragedy here, or with the emerging science on it, made his health policies ineffective and even destructive.

Reagan's mania to abolish social security was of a piece with this kind of sentiment. In the early 20th century, the old were the poorest sector of the American population. The horrors of old age--increasing sickness, loss of faculties, marginalization and ultimately death--were in that era accompanied by fear of severe poverty. Social security turned that around. The elderly are no longer generally poverty-stricken. The government can do something significant to improve people's lives. Reagan, philosophically speaking, hated the idea of state-directed redistribution of societal wealth. (His practical policies often resulted in such redistribution de facto, usually that of tossing money to the already wealthy). So he wanted to abolish social security and throw us all back into poverty in old age.

Reagan hated any social arrangement that empowered the poor and the weak. He was a hired gun for big corporations in the late 1950s, when he went around arguing against unionization. Among his achievements in office was to break the air traffic controllers' union. It was not important in and of itself, but it was a symbol of his determination that the powerless would not be allowed to organize to get a better deal. He ruined a lot of lives. I doubt he made us safer in the air.

Reagan hated environmentalism. His administration was not so mendacious as to deny the problems of increased ultraviolet radition (from a depleted ozone layer) and global warming. His government suggested people wear sunglasses and hats in response. At one point Reagan suggested that trees cause pollution. He was not completely wrong (natural processes can cause pollution), but his purpose in making the statement seems to have been that we should therefore just accept lung cancer from bad city air, which was caused by automobiles and industry, not by trees.

In foreign policy, Reagan abandoned containment of the Soviet Union as a goal and adopted a policy of active roll-back. Since the Soviet Union was already on its last legs and was not a system that could have survived long, Reagan's global aggressiveness was simply unnecessary. The argument that Reagan's increases in military funding bankrupted the Soviets by forcing them to try to keep up is simply wrong. Soviet defense spending was flat in the 1980s.

Reagan's aggression led him to shape our world in most unfortunate ways. Although it would be an exaggeration to say that Ronald Reagan created al-Qaeda, it would not be a vast exaggeration. The Carter administration began the policy of supporting the radical Muslim holy warriors in Afghanistan who were waging an insurgency against the Soviets after their invasion of that country. But Carter only threw a few tens of millions of dollars at them. By the mid-1980s, Reagan was giving the holy warriors half a billion dollars a year. His officials strong-armed the Saudis into matching the US contribution, so that Saudi Intelligence chief Faisal al-Turki turned to Usamah Bin Laden to funnel the money to the Afghans. This sort of thing was certainly done in coordination with the Reagan administration. Even the Pakistanis thought that Reagan was a wild man, and balked at giving the holy warriors ever more powerful weapons. Reagan sent Orrin Hatch to Beijing to try to talk the Chinese into pressuring the Pakistanis to allow the holy warriors to receive stingers and other sophisticated ordnance. The Pakistanis ultimately relented, even though they knew there was a severe danger that the holy warriors would eventually morph into a security threat in their own right.

Reagan's officials so hated the Sandinista populists in Nicaragua that they shredded the constitution. Congress cut off money for the rightwing death squads fighting the Sandinistas. Reagan's people therefore needed funds to continue to run the rightwing insurgency. They came up with a complicated plan of stealing Pentagon equipment, shipping it to Khomeini in Iran, illegally taking payment from Iran for the weaponry, and then giving the money to the rightwing guerrillas in Central America. At the same time, they pressured Khomeini to get US hostages in Lebanon, taken by radical Shiites there, released. It was a criminal cartel inside the US government, and Reagan allowed it, either through collusion or inattention. It is not a shining legacy, to have helped Khomeini and then used the money he gave them to support highly unsavory forces in Central America. (Some of those forces were involved after all in killing leftwing nuns).

Although Reagan's people were willing to shore up Iranian defenses during the Iran-Iraq War, so as to prevent a total Iraqi victory, they also wanted to stop Iran from taking over Iraq. They therefore winked at Saddam's use of chemical weapons. Reagan's secretary of state, George Schultz, sent Donald Rumsfeld to Baghdad twice, the second time with an explicit secret message that the US did not really mind if Saddam gassed the Iranian troops, whatever it said publicly.

I only saw Reagan once in person. I was invited to a State Department conference on religious freedom, I think in 1986. It was presided over by Elliot Abrams, whom I met then for the first time. We were taken to hear Reagan speak on religious freedom. It was a cause I could support, but I came away strangely dissatisfied. I had a sense that "religious freedom" was being used as a stick to beat those regimes the Reagan administration did not like. It wasn't as though the plight of the Moro Muslims in the Philippines was foremost on the agenda (come to think of it, perhaps no Muslims or Muslim groups were involved in the conference).

Reagan's policies thus bequeathed to us the major problems we now have in the world, including a militant Islamist International whose skills were honed in Afghanistan with Reagan's blessing and monetary support; and a proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, which the Reagan administration in some cases actually encouraged behind the scenes for short-term policy reasons. His aggressive foreign policy orientation has been revived and expanded, making the US into a neocolonial power in the Middle East. Reagan's gutting of the unions and attempt to remove social supports for the poor and the middle class has contributed to the creation of an America where most people barely get by while government programs that could help create wealth are destroyed.

Reagan's later life was debilitated by Alzheimer's. I suppose he may already have had some symptoms while president, which might explain some of his memory lapses and odd statements, and occasional public lapses into woolly-mindedness. Ironically, Alzheimer's could be cured potentially by stem cell research. In the United States, where superstition reigns over reason, the religious Right that Reagan cultivated has put severe limits on such research. His best legacy may be Nancy Reagan's argument that those limitations should be removed in his memory. There are 4 million Alzheimers sufferers in the US, and 50% of persons living beyond the age of 85 develop it. There are going to be a lot of such persons among the Baby Boomers. By reversing Reaganism, we may be able to avoid his fate.

kat
06-07-2004, 04:37 PM
Here are the details of the U.S. Government finances, during the Reagan years (from this handy spreadsheet taken from the President's 2005 budget):

Total Finances(billions of dollars)
Year / Revenues / Expenditures Deficit
1980 / 517.1 / 590.9 -73.8
1981 / 599.3 / 678.2 -79.0
1982 / 617.8 / 745.7 -128.0
1983 / 600.6 / 808.4 -207.8
1984 / 666.5 / 851.9 -185.4
1985 / 734.1 / 946.4 -212.3
1986 / 769.2 / 990.4 -221.2
1987 / 854.4 / 1,004.1 -149.7

On-Budget Finances(billions of dollars)
Year Revenues Expenditures Deficit
1980 403.9 476.6 -72.7
1981 469.1 543.0 -73.9
1982 474.3 594.3 -120.0
1983 453.2 661.3 -208.0
1984 500.4 686.0 -185.6
1985 547.9 769.6 -221.7
1986 569.0 806.9 -237.9
1987 641.0 810.2 -169.3

(Note: "Total" finances are different from "on-budget" due to inclusion of off-budget items such as Medicare and Social Security)

(sorry about the mess of the tables, i tried to fix it, but... ww.com just likes to auto format)

kat
06-16-2004, 09:05 PM
blahblahblah
http://www.neoziggurat.com/blog/archives/1087391166881.jpg

Wolfguard
06-16-2004, 09:49 PM
Since this is apparently the Reagan opinion thread... ;)

http://www.nationalreview.c om/murdock/murdock200406151240. asp


The late Ronald Reagan's detractors considered him a jellybean-chomping cowboy with little more than chestnut-colored hair inside his Stetson hat. Perhaps visualizing different headgear, the deceased Democratic honcho Clark Clifford famously dismissed Reagan as "an amiable dunce." Veteran historian Arthur Schelsinger Jr., writing in the June 14 Newsweek, adds, "He had ‘the vision thing” in abundance — alas, not too much else. He had no capacity for analysis and no command of detail."


"Utter nonsense," Milton Friedman retorts. The Nobel Prize-winning economist and Reagan advisor tells me: "He was intellectual in the sense that he had a real interest in ideas. He read widely and was interested in what was going on."

Friedman cites several collections of Reagan's radio talks and personal letters. Weren't they drafted by others and handed to Reagan merely to read or sign? Reagan's handwritten manuscripts prove he penned them personally.

"Between 1975 and 1979, Reagan delivered 1,025 three-minute radio commentaries, of which he wrote at least 673 himself," Hoover Institution scholar Annelise Anderson explained last week on NRO. With Hoover's Kiron Skinner and Martin Anderson, she
co-edited Reagan, In His Own Hand and Reagan: A Life in Letters. The relevant radio spots aired weekdays on 286 stations and discussed U.S. policy in Nigeria, the SALT II arms-control treaty, postcard voter registration, income-tax indexing, and loads more.

In developing his viewpoints, did Reagan simply parrot his pals at the country club?

Nyet, says Lee Edwards, a distinguished fellow at the Heritage Foundation. In 1965, after interviewing Reagan for a magazine profile while he contemplated his gubernatorial bid, Edwards found himself in his subject's book-lined study. Nancy and Ronald were in the kitchen making iced tea. Edwards was overcome with curiosity.

"I went over and began looking at the titles," Edwards says. "They were history, biography, economics, politics. All serious stuff."

"I began pulling the books out of the shelves and looking at them," he continues. "They were dog-eared. They were annotated. They were smudged by his fingers, and so forth. This was a man who had read hundreds of books." Edwards found these volumes highlighted in blue pen and full of Reagan's notes and comments. "It was clear that he had read them, had digested them, and had studied them."

Edwards remembers three particular titles: Witness, by one-time American Communist Whittaker Chambers, Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt, and The Law by 19th-century French economist Frederic Bastiat. "I said to myself, there are not too many Hollywood actors who have read The Law."

"So I knew right away, this was a thinking conservative. This was a man who loved ideas. He was comfortable with ideas and was able to take ideas and translate them into a common idiom."

Reagan must have loved Bastiat's parables in which he satirically offered "solutions" to the economic "problems" of his day. In Economic Sophisms (Foundation for Economic Education), he ridiculed concern over the balance of trade with this suggestion:

"France has a quite simple means of doubling her capital at any moment. It suffices merely to pass its products through the customhouse, and then throw them into the sea. In that case the exports will equal the amount of her capital; imports will be nonexistent and even impossible, and we shall gain all that the ocean has swallowed up."

In addition to Bastiat, President Reagan told columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak in a March 23, 1981, interview published in The Reagan Revolution that he was influenced by Austrian-school, free-market stalwarts F. A. Hayek and Ludwig Von Mises.

In response to Evans's question, Reagan said: "Oh, I know about [Richard] Cobden and [John] Bright in England — and the elimination of the corn laws and so forth, and the great burst of economy and prosperity that followed." Invoking such esoteric thinkers went far beyond platitudes about respecting private enterprise.

Reagan's interests stretched from economic arcana to strategic weapons.

Conservative luminary William F. Buckley Jr. recalled a late-evening discussion about unemployment figures he enjoyed with then-President Reagan in 1981 while the Buckleys were his vacation guests. "The next morning I found under our door a page and a half of legal paper written over by our host," Buckley wrote in October 1999. "In this scribbled memo to me," Reagan lamented the tendency of static joblessness data to overlook dynamic, if unseen, forces in labor markets. Buckley observed: "Midnight reflections on such questions, written out, aren't the work of dormant minds."

President Reagan's proposal for ballistic-missile defense did not spring from science-fiction cinema, as Massachusetts Democratic Senator Ted Kennedy hinted when he lampooned it as "Star Wars." As Lee Edwards wrote, "Governor Reagan began seeking an alternative to the U.S. missile defense policy of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) at a meeting with physicist Edward Teller in 1967." (Teller is the departed and distinguished father of the hydrogen bomb.)

The Kremlin's worries that it could not overcome Reagan's plans to neutralize its warheads helped shatter the hammer and sickle.

Reagan cleverly let people think him a simpler man than he truly was — all the better to outwit them.

Former Reagan speechwriter Peggy Noonan elegantly summarized this in the June 7 Wall Street Journal: "And when it was over, the Berlin Wall had been turned into a million concrete souvenirs, and Soviet communism had fallen. But of course it didn't fall. It was pushed. By Mr. Know Nothing Cowboy Gunslinger Dimwit. All presidents should be so stupid."

Here again, his critics got him wrong. Statesman. Communicator. Intellectual. As great an American as our age has seen, Ronald Reagan was a more gifted man than even his supporters realized.

Wolfguard
06-16-2004, 10:25 PM
http://www.signonsandiego.c om/news/op-ed/perkins/20040611-9999-lz1e11perkins.html



June 11, 2004

I cast my very first presidential ballot for Ronald Reagan. That set me apart from most of my fellow black Americans, 90 percent of whom gave their votes to Jimmy Carter in 1980 and Walter Mondale in 1984.

Even as the nation mourns Reagan's passing this week, many blacks retain their animus toward the 40th president, as evidenced by the uncharitable remarks by several black leaders.

"Black grandmothers like mine said always speak well of the dead or keep quiet," Rep. Major Owens, the New York Democrat told The Hill, a newspaper that covers Congress. "I choose to keep quiet."

"Many in the African-American community strongly disagreed with his domestic policy," said Rep. Al Wynn, a Maryland Democrat.

"In terms of being a president for African-Americans," said Diane Watson, a Los Angeles Democrat, "he was not."

Based on the remarks by Reps. Owens, Wynn and Watson, and similar sentiments expressed by other black leaders, one might conclude that the Reagan era was a period of retrenchment for the black population.

But the reality is, the 1980s, with a conservative, free-market Republican in the White House, were a boom time for black America.

Indeed, Andrew Brimmer, the Harvard-trained black economist, the former Federal Reserve Board member, estimated that total black business receipts increased from $12.4 billion in 1982 to $18.1 billion in 1987, translating into an annual average growth rate of 7.9 percent (compared to 5 percent for all U.S. businesses.

The success of the black entrepreneurial class during the Reagan era was rivaled only by the gains of the black middle class.

In fact, black social scientist Bart Landry estimated that that upwardly mobile cohort grew by a third under Reagan's watch, from 3.6 million in 1980 to 4.8 million in 1988. His definition was based on employment in white-collar jobs as well as on income levels.

All told, the middle class constituted more than 40 percent of black households by the end of Reagan's presidency, which was larger than the size of black working class, or the black poor.

The impressive growth of the black middle class during the 1980s was attributable in no small part to the explosive growth of jobs under Reagan, which benefited blacks disproportionately.

Indeed, between 1982 and 1988, total black employment increased by 2 million, a staggering sum. That meant that blacks gained 15 percent of the new jobs created during that span, while accounting for only 11 percent of the working-age population.

Meanwhile, the black jobless rate was cut by almost half between 1982 and 1988. Over the same span, the black employment rate – the percentage of working-age persons holding jobs – increased to record levels, from 49 percent to 56 percent.

The black executive ranks especially prospered under Reagan. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission reported that the number of black managers and officers in corporations with 100 or more employees increased by 30 percent between 1980 and 1985.

During the same period, the number of black professionals increased by an astounding 63 percent.

The burgeoning of the black professional, managerial and executive ranks during the 1980s coincided with a steady growth of the black student population at the nation's colleges and universities in the 1980s.

Even though the number of college-aged blacks decreased during much of the decade, black college enrollment increased by 100,000 between 1980 and 1987, according to the Census Bureau.

Meanwhile, the 1980s saw an improvement in the black high school graduation rate, as the proportion of blacks 18 to 24 years old earning high school diplomas increased from 69.7 percent in 1980 to 76 percent by 1987.

On balance, then, the majority of black Americans made considerable progress in the 1980s.

More of us stayed in high school, graduated and went on to college. More of us were working than ever before, in better jobs and for higher wages.

The black middle class burgeoned to unprecedented size, emerging as the dominant income group in black America. And black business flourished, creating wealth in the black community.

Reps. Owens, Wynn and Watson may think that all of those wondrous developments were simply happenstance.

But the credit goes to Ronald Reagan, who initiated the policies that fostered the economic growth and job creation of the 1980s, which produced the prosperity that most black Americans enjoyed.

Wolfguard
06-16-2004, 11:04 PM
http://www.dineshdsouza.com/REAGAN_VS_INTELLECTU ALS.htm

BY DINESH D’SOUZA

“Who would have thought,” Ronald Reagan said a few years before his death, “that I would live to see the end of the Soviet Union.” Reagan’s whole career was devoted to the defeat of Soviet Communism, and for him to witness the collapse, first of the Berlin Wall and of the Soviet empire itself, must have been a supreme vindication.

Yet many historians and pundits—who are writing the textbooks about the Reagan era—refuse to credit Reagan’s policies as instrumental in assuring America’s victory in the cold war. Rather, they insist that Soviet Communism suffered from chronic economic problems and predictably collapsed, as Strobe Talbott, then a journalist at Time and now a senior official in the Clinton State Department, put it, “not because of anything the outside world has done or not done, but because of defects and inadequacies at its core.”

If so, it is reasonable to expect that the inevitable Soviet collapse would have been foreseen by these experts. Let us see what some of them had to say about the Soviet system during the 1980s. In l982, the learned Sovietologist Seweryn Bialer of Columbia University wrote in Foreign Affairs, “The Soviet Union is not now nor will it be during the next decade in the throes of a true systemic crisis, for it boasts enormous unused reserves of political and social stability.”

This view was seconded that same year by the eminent historian Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., who observed that “those in the United States who think the Soviet Union is on the verge of economic and social collapse” are “wishful thinkers who are only kidding themselves.”

John Kenneth Galbraith, the distinguished Harvard economist, wrote in l984: “That the Soviet system has made great material progress in recent years is evident both from the statistics and from the general urban scene. One sees it in the appearance of solid well-being of the people on the streets and the general aspect of restaurants, theaters, and shops.Partly, the Russian system succeeds because, in contrast with the Western industrial economies, it makes full use of its manpower.”

Equally imaginative was the assessment of Paul Samuelson of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, a Nobel laureate in economics, writing in the l985 edition of his widely-used textbook. “What counts is results, and there can be no doubt that the Soviet planning system has been a powerful engine for economic growth. The Soviet model has surely demonstrated that a command economy is capable of mobilizing resources for rapid growth.”

Columnist James Reston of the New York Times in June 1985 revealed his capacity for sophisticated even-handedness when he dismissed the possibility of the collapse of Communism on the grounds that Soviet problems were not different from those in the United States. “It is clear that the ideologies of Communism, socialism and capitalism are all in trouble.”

But the genius award undoubtedly goes to Lester Thurow, another MIT economist and well-known author who, as late as l989, wrote, “Can economic command significantly accelerate the growth process? The remarkable performance of the Soviet Union suggests that it can. Today the Soviet Union is a country whose economic achievements bear comparison with those of the United States.”

Throughout the 1980s, most of these pundits derisively condemned Reagan’s policies. Strobe Talbott faulted the Reagan administration for espousing “the early fifties goal of rolling back Soviet domination of Eastern Europe,” an objective he considered misguided and unrealistic. “Reagan is counting on American technological and economic predominance to prevail in the end,” Talbott scoffed, adding that if the Soviet economy was in a crisis of any kind “it is a permanent, institutionalized crisis with which the U.S.S.R. has learned to live.”

Perhaps one should not be too hard on the wise men. After all, explains Arthur Schlesinger in the aftermath of the Soviet collapse, “History has an abiding capacity to outwit our certitudes. No one foresaw these changes.”

Wrong again. Reagan foresaw them. In l981, Reagan told the students and faculty at the University of Notre Dame, “The West won’t contain Communism. It will transcend Communism. We will dismiss it as some bizarre chapter in human history whose last pages are even now being written.”

In l982, Reagan told the British Parliament in London: “In an ironic sense, Karl Marx was right. We are witnessing today a great revolutionary crisis. But the crisis is happening not in the free, non-Marxist West, but in the home of Marxism-Leninism, the Soviet Union.” Reagan added that “it is the Soviet Union that runs against the tide of history by denying freedom and human dignity to its citizens” and he predicted that if the Western alliance remained strong it would produce a “march of freedom and democracy which will leave Marxism-Leninism on the ash-heap of history.”

In l987 Reagan spoke at the Brandenburg Gate in West Berlin. “In the Communist world,” he said, “we see failure, technological backwardness, declining standards. Even today, the Soviet Union cannot feed itself.” Thus the “inescapable conclusion” in his view was that “freedom is the victor.” Then Reagan said, “General Secretary Gorbachev, Come here to this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.”

Not long after this, the wall did come tumbling down, and Reagan’s prophecies all came true. These were not just results Reagan predicted. He intended the outcome. He implemented policies that were designed to achieve it. He was harshly denounced for those policies. Yet Reagan turned out to be right, and in the end his objective—the complete triumph of Western freedom over Soviet totalitarianism—was achieved.

Margaret Thatcher composed Reagan’s epitaph when she said that “he won the cold war without firing a shot.” Perhaps it is too much to ask the wise men to admit their errors. But as Reagan passes into history, it’s only right that we who are enjoying the benefits of living in a post-cold war world give him credit for his prescient statesmanship.

____________________ ____________________ ____________________ ___


Dinesh D’Souza is author of Ronald Reagan: How an Ordinary Man Became an Extraordinary Leader (Touchstone Books).

Darth Cluich
06-17-2004, 08:57 AM
Bravo, Wolfguard! :beerchug:

Ahhhh...my ulcer's starting to feel much better! :D

kat
06-17-2004, 09:11 AM
(For the Black American article)

You know, it certainly is interesting how the article never actually mentions what it is that Reagan actually did to help black America. It only says "under Reagan's watch", but never actually what he supposedly did.

It's interesting how when something negative happens under a President, people blame the previous President, whereas if something good happens they end up giving the current President a cookie.

Did Reagan help black America? Uh, no, probably not. Did he bring the end of the Soviet Union? Definitely not. They did that themselves, and it was just as much politics as it was economy.

Don't give credit where it isn't due, guys. You want to worship him, but he needs to have actually done something first.

Cephas
06-17-2004, 09:27 AM
Reagan ended the Cold War. If he hadn't, then Russia would have gone more bankrupt than it did and perhaps tried a military last-stand, possibly missiling someplace to oblivion.

Darth Cluich
06-17-2004, 09:29 AM
Y'know, as much as I believe that Reagan's policies did, in fact, push the USSR into extinction, your "last-stand" scenario is absurd, Cephas.

kat
06-17-2004, 11:08 AM
No, he freaking did not push the CCCP into extinction. The Union had been falling into pieces on its own since the early 70s, and by the late 80s more than a handful of Soviet states had begun to rebel against the Communist party. Meanwhile, Gorbachev was trying his best to bring the CCCP out of archaic times, but wasn't really paying attention, and certainly not doing the best job of governing the chaotic situation. So when the rebeling states gave the CCCP the finger and walked off, and he didn't do anything, there was a power struggle (complete with tanks and crying mothers) and the world fell apart.

No Reagan. As for the Cold War, the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty happened in the 70s, as did the economic crash, and Gorby was quite for the elimination of all intermediate-range nuclear missiles in the world. Not to mention the extreme social reforms that began as early as Gorbachev (w/his glasnost and perestroika).

Bitches!

Cephas
06-17-2004, 12:18 PM
Y'know, as much as I believe that Reagan's policies did, in fact, push the USSR into extinction, your "last-stand" scenario is absurd, Cephas.
However, it was Reagan who chose to re-initiate the Strategic Arms Reduction Talks (START), and also to dismiss the proposed Strategic Defence Initiative (SDI), thus stopping the arms-race. By this time, Gorborchev had realised the futility of the arms-race, and needed a way of stepping down his arsenal without seeming to be backing down to the US. The proposed START seemed to be the answer to his prayers.
And Kat's right, the USSR was heading for economic bankrupcy anyway, after the failed COMECON and spending on the arms race.
Of course the 'last stand' situation is nonsense. I was trying to make the point that if Reagan had not done what he did, then the Russians may have done something other than the peaceful option that they did take.

Wolfguard
06-17-2004, 12:41 PM
It's interesting how when something negative happens under a President, people blame the previous President, whereas if something good happens they end up giving the current President a cookie.

Kinda like Clinton:

Bill Clinton's economic legacy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1110165.stm)

Mr Clinton's most enduring legacy is likely to be the economic boom which began shortly before he took office in 1992.





No Reagan. As for the Cold War, the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty happened in the 70s, as did the economic crash, and Gorby was quite for the elimination of all intermediate-range nuclear missiles in the world. Not to mention the extreme social reforms that began as early as Gorbachev (w/his glasnost and perestroika).

Alas, there is no crystal ball to tell us what would have, could have, should have, happened if the Soviet Union had not been outspent. I could argue that they`d have simply let go of their states and maintained their "Union" within Russia, but I`ll leave that to Clancy and the like to write about it.

;)


Bitches!

:D

kat
06-17-2004, 12:45 PM
Clinton was actually precisely who I had in mind when I wrote that. :) Along with Bush, too.