Darkside...

[MorganaFang]

Personally, I don't believe in evil yet I believe in extremes of things in order for balance to be attained. For instance there must be a dark in order to have life. I'm curious though if people can just be one with out the other. Completely dark with out any lightness at all. I've never met or know of anyone without goodness. So whats everyone else's opinions?

[Xzengrim]

Well... I'm going to say "Impossible!!" Good and evil don't really exist, they are inventions of whatever culture gave birth to them. Subsequently, they vary by time period, culture, current schools of thought... etcetera. I mean, many people would be quick to point out Adolf Hitler as the incarnation of abject evil. But to him, and to 1930's Germany, he was a swell guy. He did everything right according to the socialogical moral convention of his time and place. And yet to us... he is probably the most evil thing we've ever seen.
Although I did see him on tv the other day. And it turns out that the headmistress of the Wagner Festival used to be real friendly with der Furher, and nicknamed him "Wolf." I didn't like that at all. Soiling a good name, so they are.
But anyway... there is no light or dark side. But if there were, I'm sure it wouldn't be possible to be completely one or completely the other. After all, you say the universe cannot exist without both... how can a single person?

[Wolffy13]

Well, the name Adolph means "wolf", so I suppose that isn't too surprising, although the idea of Hitler being nicnamed that does leave a sour aftertaste in your mouth, so to speak. Yet, I, myself, do believe in good and evil, but not so much in this existence. I have met some pretty dark people in life as well as some of the sweetest, but I think everyone has a bad and good side, as I, myself, have recently faced my more "unfriendly" side as of late. I do believe in the concept of Yin & Yang, everything has an opposite here in this world. I suppose though, you could say I believe that the good and evil is segregated in the spirit world. Being a medium, you can get a lot of "visitors" and not everyone is so wonderful. I seem to have a disgruntled spiritual resident in my own basement and let's just say I do not feel comfortable in my basement on my own. I am not saying I have all the answers or anything, just sharing what I have noticed (I need a life :p ) and I had to jump in on the whole philosophy of it. Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject.

[GothicRogue]

My personal belief is that there is dark and light, not even and good

You can be a very dark spirited, and or natured person, but do many great and possitive things. Then again you can be light and full of life and yet do the most negitive and destroy things.

This is a poor exsample but look at Lucifur. The Archangel Lucifure was said to be the most beautiful of the angels and he came from the light, well acrording to the bible he was "evil" and yet he still came from the light and was light.

My self...I am a dark spirited and natured person. Nocturnal and dont like light or the idea of being "light" but that doesnt mean I go around doing negitive and "evil" things.

Then look at in in terms of magick. Light magick is just a "lighter" virison of "dark" magick. It isnt as powerful as the dark. "Dark" Magick is something with more power, and stronger.

I believe you arent "evil" till you use what is given to you for less then good. I believe you are "good" when what you do with your will and magick (if you are pagan or otherwise) is for the better cause.

Then again what do I know eh?

[Nivek]

I see it as Yin Yang in motion. A blur.

[Chaoil]

There is Dark, and there is Light.
And there is Good, and there is Evil.
But I agree, Dark is not Evil , nor is Light Good.

Good, to me is Love, like Kindness.
Evil, to me is Hate, like Wickedness.

[Chaoil]

There is Dark, and there is Light.
And there is Good, and there is Evil.
But I agree, Dark is not Evil , nor is Light Good.

Good, to me is Love, like Kindness.
Evil, to me is Hate, like Wickedness.
Like something Evil would be rapping a random 10yr old girl to death.
And something Good would be helping a random girl recover from such.

[MorganaFang]

Has anyone ever seen Unbreakable. In that movie there was this guy that was virtually indistructable ok, he was fully invincible and he meets this guy that is his extreme opposite. Now, with that in mind, what I want to know if any one has percieved such a thing to be real. That one person can be intirely dark(which for my reasons I'm defining as you people's version of evil) or intirely light (which is the traditional good. Hitler isn't a good example because despite all his wickedness he was able to love and evidently be loved. Same with any other histories villians. Recently I watched Saddam's daughters trying to convince a tv reporter of their father's goodness despite everything else.
I don't believe in evil because in my mind in order to be evil you must have complete cruel intentions and no love of it at all even for the "evilness" its self.

[Chaoil]

Has anyone ever seen Unbreakable. In that movie there was this guy that was virtually indistructable ok, he was fully invincible and he meets this guy that is his extreme opposite. Now, with that in mind, what I want to know if any one has percieved such a thing to be real. That one person can be intirely dark(which for my reasons I'm defining as you people's version of evil) or intirely light (which is the traditional good. Hitler isn't a good example because despite all his wickedness he was able to love and evidently be loved. Same with any other histories villians. Recently I watched Saddam's daughters trying to convince a tv reporter of their father's goodness despite everything else.
I don't believe in evil because in my mind in order to be evil you must have complete cruel intentions and no love of it at all even for the "evilness" its self.
I agree, no one is evil or good, merely human. We constantly battle between the two, or just give up and go with the flow. Some people may strive at being completely good, some people may indulge in being as evil as possible.

But, I wouldn't consider the glassman (or whatever his name was) evil. Hitler wasn't evil either.
No one is "good" or "evil" but everyone is inbetween...Otherwis e they arn't human,were,vamp, or anything earthly.

[YoungFang]

I agree that there is no clear cut good or evil; however much helpful it would be to have clear cut borders like that. I was thinking recently about evil in a criminal sense. People who commit murders and other hideous crimes intentually. Is it evil? Or is it something mentally? And if it is a mix of both how do you decide if it's the person or an uncontrolled reaction in their brains.

[MorganaFang]

In the book Smoke and Mirrors by Neil Gaimen there is this story that really has nothing to do with this except at one part they talk about Charles Manson.Well anyway manson is being described as have two sides. 1. He can be the most charming guy you ever met (which actually watching a lot of his old interviews I can totally by that) 2. He could get really insane, especially after a while in prison hes like this caged rabid animal.
A conclusion one could draw from all this is that Manson was a pretty good charismatic guy but he was so thoroughly convinced of something that he took very devient steps to practice his beliefs. Does this make Manson evil or sick? After all Manson was capable of love too since he had quite a big following of people, heck even the beach boys were involved with him. Manson could be seen as just sick, course what is sick anyways? Maybe Manson was a traditional person in general, he made his own rules and lived by them, he didn't go with convention. There have been debates over years about all this junk in the end all that can be concluded is it is just perception. Society goes with the majoritie's perception.

[Alphawolf]

hmmm, well think about this; If some crazy serial killer came into your house and killed your family, would you still think there was no good or evil. I think in some EXTREMELY rare cases, the lines between good and evil are very clear.

[MorganaFang]

Again personal perception and no, I can honestly say since similar offences have been committed against me and my family I can say I still say the person is evil, maybe sick but not evil. I think in terms of animal behavior even when it comes to humans and when something kills or hurts just to do so, it displays weekness and internal pain of some sort.

[Chaoil]

Good is love, love of one's self, love on one's friends, family, strangers.
EVil is hate and selfishness(complete lack of love), hate of one's self, hate of one's neighbores, hate of ones enemies, even.

[Tearsofblackblood]

hmmmm... time to put in my two cents worth...

Now, I dont know how much this is really going to help anyone, nor do I know if any of you will even take heed to what I say, and to my opinions, but here I go anyways...

I believe that there is no good, nor evil; light, nor dark; ying, nor yang... and so on. It is all just a state of mind. People came up with these things, these words to label people for their actions and for their thoughts, but what are these but mere words? If you really think about it, they really have no meaning. Nothing we say really has any meaning. They are just things people say, people label each other, mostly just to make themselves feel better about their own actions and thoughts. People do what they do, but their actions nor thoughts can be labeled by a word, a word like evil or good. Really, whose to say who is good or evil? light or dark? Just because a man kills another man, does not make him evil. Bears kill other bears, but we label it instinct, why not label what this man did instinct? when a animal kills another animal, of its kind or not, we do not label them evil, nor does that animal start to think... well, what i just did is evil? maybe i shouldnt do that anymore. I know, you all will say, well humans should know better, for we are on top of the food chain! We are more intelligant than any other being out there! If you ask me, we are the most stupid animal out there. (yes i said animal, for that is what we are!) We label people good or evil, mean or nice, when really these words have no meaning. A man killing another man can be labled evil, but so can a person who doesnt say "God bless you" when someone sneezes. That right there should show you there is no good or evil, just actions and thoughts, and free will.

Well, that was my two cents, wether you take heed to it or not is your problem, not mine. And wether you understood what I was saying was your problem or not. eh, now i suppose by those statments i just made about them being your problem, you are going to label me rude, or mean, but just remember what i said, they have no meaning! maybe to you they do, but to me, they dont.

(oh, and excuse any spelling mistakes please... I am not exactly the best speller out there.)

Later...

~*~Alexandra Rae~*~

[Kishi-Garou]

I do believe in the concept of Yin & Yang, everything has an opposite here in this world.

If you look at the symbol, you will notice the two dots inside it. Yeah. Looks real cool, eh? Well, the black dot in the white symbolizes there is dark in light, and the white dot in the black symbolizes there is light in dark. Without light, there is no dark, for there is nothing to make it dark. Without dark, there is no light, for there would be nothing to light up.

Now, this ought to make sense. Peoples actions are not what would be considered evil, it is the way they did it.

If your job was to kill someone, and you did it. Would you be evil for doing it, because killing is evil?

I see a balance scale for all things. You can't have one thing without another side of the scale rising or lowering. So, therefore, you can't be wholly one thing. Such is Karma. :shrug:

[wolfwolf]

good and evil exhist. The times change what is socially acceptable though. and EVERYTHING thrives in balance, from emotions to the environment to whatever else.

[lordragoon]

No one goes out into life thinking "Oh, lets go do some evil." Good and evil are just words we humans like to use to make ourselves feel better about our actions. If you can truly look into an animal's mind, you'll realize that they don't apply those distinctions : only man ate from the tree of Knowledge of good and evil.
It works better to think of it in terms of effects and responsiblity. Not just ends or means, but what both are about. Don't follow the path of people who are obsessed with destiny or fate or luck or gods. They just want an excuse for their actions and a bright future to look forward to. Likewise, don't agree with people who care only for good and evil; because both definitions rely on viewpoint, they can be shifted and delayed and destroyed. I don't think even Hitler or Stalin saw themselves as evil; each had several million who would say that's not right, and even had several million souls they killed that ensured both murderers had a direct path to hell.

"There was no point sticking with good and evil when one is born with an innate sense of right and wrong." Stick with what you see as right, and fufill all those laws of the soul.

That's no easy goal, but thenagain, what is.

[Kishi-Garou]

LD, You always seem to be able to enlighten me in some way.

If I had a beer, i'd propose a toast to your enlightened mind!

"If you can truly look into an animal's mind, you'll realize that they don't apply those distinctions : only man ate from the tree of Knowledge of good and evil."

If man returned to his animal state, IE - rejected society and reformed the world through new anscestry without knowledge of certain things, would he just know right and wrong, or good and evil so to speak?

[lordragoon]

We wouldn't need to. Humans still have the ideals of right and wrong. We just let our high-minded concepts of good and evil get in the way. It's a matter of following what feels right, not what 'should be done.'

[wolfwolf]

We wouldn't need to. Humans still have the ideals of right and wrong. We just let our high-minded concepts of good and evil get in the way. It's a matter of following what feels right, not what 'should be done.'
disagree, just for the record.

[lordragoon]

Please explain; what do you disagree with, and why?

[Lost_Killer]

My opinion is that, when you chose the animal path, you cant do anything you want, you have to follow some rules, one of the rules is that, you accept your true animal nature, animals have no gods besides them self’s, there is no good or evil for animals, there is only ur nature, we do what we wilt, and we can harm others as we can love and help.

Humans are differs from animals only in that way, they claim to be absolute good, they claim that they can disappear evil from they hearts,(Hypocrites) they are all wrong, they are just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of they “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all! (as lavey sayd)

Good and evil are just tow different sides of the same coin, you can drop the coin, not a side of it.

[Kaz Trueblood]

Hardcore Idealist here. There is absolutely a good and a bad. There is absolutely no such thing as shades of grey. There is only white, and dirty white. Every decision has it's consequence, and every person has their lot. If there is such a thing as evil in the world, we have an obligation to do something about it. Not because we're anything special. And, since when has humankind minded stepping on someone else's toes?...

For example. I live in country A. I work in country X. Country A and X are getting along well enough. However, one day at work, I see a family bringing a four year old girl to this set of steps and an altar in front of my work. I'm curious to this, but I just stay there, minding my own business. I see them take the girl, place her on the alter, and tie her up. Suddenly, a knife appears, and is being sharpened. The girl is obviously frightened, but no one will do anything for her. I ask someone, "What's going on here?" and they reply, "It is custom in our country to sacrifice a four year old girl every year for __________" (fill in the blank).

What do you do?

I'll tell you what you don't do. You don't just sit there and let them sacrifice her, afraid of breaking their customs. You don't just let another human being die because someone said it was ok.

There is no such thing as relativism. There is no such thing as neutrality. With every action we make, we make a choice. With every non-action we make, we make a choice.

There is, and always will be a right and a wrong...And by this point, we all know what it is. Apart from law, apart from government, apart from peers...You feel it in your gut. We know.

[MorganaFang]

touche

[Kishi-Garou]

:buttrock: Kaz Rocks?

[dark_wolf681]

i believe there is evil and good , but i dont think any one person can be totally evil or good,you could be like nuetral evil or nuetral good , but not complete, cuz if you were evil ud be killing every one KOS :cool:

[lordragoon]

Dark Wolf681, this coming from someone who call's themself 'hunter'? How do you explain that to yourself - rationalize killing people who aren't all evil?

[Kirin Fenrir]

Hardcore Idealist here. There is absolutely a good and a bad. There is absolutely no such thing as shades of grey. There is only white, and dirty white. Every decision has it's consequence, and every person has their lot. If there is such a thing as evil in the world, we have an obligation to do something about it. Not because we're anything special. And, since when has humankind minded stepping on someone else's toes?...

For example. I live in country A. I work in country X. Country A and X are getting along well enough. However, one day at work, I see a family bringing a four year old girl to this set of steps and an altar in front of my work. I'm curious to this, but I just stay there, minding my own business. I see them take the girl, place her on the alter, and tie her up. Suddenly, a knife appears, and is being sharpened. The girl is obviously frightened, but no one will do anything for her. I ask someone, "What's going on here?" and they reply, "It is custom in our country to sacrifice a four year old girl every year for __________" (fill in the blank).

What do you do?

I'll tell you what you don't do. You don't just sit there and let them sacrifice her, afraid of breaking their customs. You don't just let another human being die because someone said it was ok.

There is no such thing as relativism. There is no such thing as neutrality. With every action we make, we make a choice. With every non-action we make, we make a choice.

There is, and always will be a right and a wrong...And by this point, we all know what it is. Apart from law, apart from government, apart from peers...You feel it in your gut. We know.


I disagree entirely. Your example was invoking a direct sense of murder, which is something that elicts instinctual response in ANY individual of "sane" mind.

Let me provide you with another:

You're from contry A and live near Country X. On your way home, you stop by to see a fellow farmer of country X, see how crops are doing this year. Farmer X says that his daughter has become desperatly sick, so he went to the local market to find the medicine she needs to get better. But there was a severe shortage of medicine in this country, and the pharmisist coulnd't give the man the last few doses he had left, since they had already been bought and were about to be picked up by other families with the same problem. This dises is deadly without medication...the man can't let his daughter die...so he tries to take the medicine forcfully and ends up killing the pharmisist. He runs home, grief-stricken, but at least his daughter will survive. She's stable for now, but needs several more doses before she's in the clear. Now asks for your help, to hide him in your country so the officers coming for him won't arrest him and take the last few doses he stole.

What do your idealist views tell you to do? Help this man, ensure his daughter's survival? Or turn him in, returning the medicine to the other families and saving their sick? Or do you do nothing, let nature run it's course?

There are many shades of grey.

[Quicksilver]

Kaz makes an excellent point.. that there is a good and evil..
I do my best to be good.. stay good.. and help... lol..sage grizzly...lol..errhe m
and kirin is right there are many shades of gray...
But i think that we are getting away from a serious point..
e.g..if someone rapes your wife/girlfriend/mother/sister and kills her.. it seems ok to enact revenge right?? Well in some societies it is ok.. but in the US it is illegal to enact your own justice, so that would make you just as bad for avenging your family (how many wolves does that piss of?).Does that mean that our ideals of good and evil come from our own societies? or maybe even our religions? I would think yes now that brings up morality as well.. but I won't get into that :)
But I do want to say... that there are definetly boundaries to these infinite shades of gray... good and evil.. profane and holy...
I try my best to be council and friend to all who ask of me..this web board included... and I have seen many astrange occult happenings in this world in my short years... and I know that there are things that are evil.. and things that are holy..so enjoy your shades of gray.. its sadly the capitalist way... but don't get too comfortable.. because in the end.. we cross those borders....

[Kaz Trueblood]

What do your idealist views tell you to do? Help this man, ensure his daughter's survival? Or turn him in, returning the medicine to the other families and saving their sick? Or do you do nothing, let nature run it's course?

There are many shades of grey.
You're an emotionalist, where each person's opinion is as good as gold, when it gets down to it. I can understand where you would like to support such an idea, but it is still only your emotions. No one else can feel them, or know how they function. As I stated before. There is only white, and dirty white. This is an obvious example of a bad things happening with good intentions.

First off, if he hasn't already set his plan in motion, I would do everything I could to help her, possibly even taking her back to country A for medication. Second, if the plan has been set in motion, try to stop the farmer from killing the pharmisist.

Ultimately, I acknowledge the fact that my choice is always going to sound cold. But, that's only because of situations that they have put themselves into, and of my ideals of there is right and wrong. And, hell. We're living in a world with weak leaders...The problem isn't that they're not reasonable, it's that they're too reasonable. Do you think that if the world really cared about each other, that all of this killing would still be going on? Do you think that the Middle East would be in the state that it's in? Do you think 9/11 would have happened with so little consiquence? If the farmer was to the point where he would kill another human for any reason at all, then he should be brought in.

The daughter is an innocent. I would help her to the best of my abilities. What that means, I'm not entirely certian, due to the fact that this is only hypothetical. But, that doesn't mean that I would be wholly justified to her cause, the medicine would almost certianly have to be brought back. It depends on how well the common people have been able to get the medicine before the supply ran short, and a ton of other factors that are not quite apparant at this point in time. They lived in country X, under the relative safety and security of their government. They lived by X's rules, and prior to the disease, had every chance in leaving it for something else.

This is starting to sound like the Trial of Socrates...Check up on it. When he's in his cell talking with...My mind escapes me...They have a very similar discussion.

I'm not saying there is absolute purity in each choice that we make, but we should always attempt to find a better possibility, before there needs to be death, and usually there is a better way.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to head to class...Ugh.

[dark_wolf681]

dude i was j/k theres no such thing as WW's so no worrys...
:beerchug:

[Lone Wolf7193]

I don't believe in good or evil. There are all kinds of beliefs in the world, so good and evil can't exist. Like the situation with the terrorists, they believe America is evil because that is what they were taught, and that attacking America is good because they believe they are destroying evil. Most Americans believe that terrorists are evil because that is what they believe. So good and evil only exists in the mind of something, nothing else.

[Veldroth]

There is no good or evil it is all perception. How we perceive things determines what we will label things. For Ex: You might see a convicted killere on Death-Row but that does not mean he is bad! What if the person he killed had raped his daughter? All things stem from the God and Goddess there is no good or bad what one person sees as death the other sees as rebirth.
:D

Mephistopheles: I cannot loose bonds laid by the avenger of blood, I cannot undo his bars. --Save Her! -- Who plunged her into ruin! I, or you. (Faust looks about in a frenzy) Are you searching for a thunderbolt? How fortunate you miserable mortals did not receive that weapon! To crush and slay the man who dares reply to him is how a tyrant finds relief when he's embarrassed. ----Wolfgang Von Goethe's , Faust
Mephistopheles: I cannot loose bonds laid by the avenger of blood, I cannot undo his bars. --Save Her! -- Who plunged her into ruin! I, or you. (Faust looks about in a frenzy) Are you searching for a thunderbolt? How fortunate you miserable mortals did not receive that weapon! To crush and slay the man who dares reply to him is how a tyrant finds relief when he's embarrassed. ----Wolfgang Von Goethe's , Faust