The Wolf Hunt Is On - Page 2

NeonLightChild · 09-02-2009, 08:22 PM

No matter how you look at it, there is no going back to the past. Human population is growing at an exponential rate, and development sites are doing the same thing, and until people stop breeding and selling land to developers, it's not going to change. (On a similar note, I love this video!) So the problem now is either a) fixing what we've done, or b) finding an unsteady balance with nature as it is now.

We can't fix what we've done unless we kill off a good part of the population and let the land go to seed. HIGHLY unlikely and simply implausible.

The only other option is to strike a balance, but that means keeping certain populations in check. People? Good luck with that. Animals? Much easier to maintain a level that's workable with the surrounding area. That's why cities hire bowhunters every so often to get rid of the city deer when they start becoming a nuisance. (And that's also why bleeding-heart "I don't want to kill the animal so I'll let it die a cruel slow bloody death at the hands of some unlucky driver" policies like Bambi Birth Control fizzle.)

But we also need to recognize that in some places, there needs to be a balance. We had an explosion of rabbits this year, and for some reason, no coyotes. Of course, everyone hates the coyotes because they kill little foo-foo dogs and whatnot, but they also prey on the local rodents that ruin gardens and lawns. So my family, while they'd rather not SEE them as much as know they're there, support the existence of coyotes in suburbia.

The farmers must do the same thing with wolves. It's healthy for the land to have predators, but too many, and there's an imbalance. It's cathartic to think of all wolves running wild and free, but think about it this way: that's why there's such a run on getting rid of wild horses. Yhere is simply not enough land for all of them. The oil toycoon's wife who spent a good chunk of money to buy some land for them to live on is well-intentioned and looks good...but with unchecked breeding and no adequate predation, the writing's on the wall.

Hope you can see where I'm going with this. I'm not the biggest fan of hunting predator like bear or wolf, but I believe that enough people see what is going on. The gray wolf is a part of North America, and needs to be part of the ecosystem here, but at this point in time, it is unfortunately up to us to make sure they STAY successful. I could spell out doom and gloom by saying that people are eventually going to (or already do?) need to control everything, nature as it was meant to be is dying, etc, and maybe that's true in some respects. But the fact remains that we just can't go back to "how things were." We need to focus on the now and live in the present in order to have a successful future.

/end motivational speech

Ieliv · 09-03-2009, 04:53 AM

That is a valid point and a very good one too. Also I loved that videoXD. Anyway my personal thoughts are not so much on the now, but rather the then. The future. Someday we are going to run out of resources and space. Whichever comes first I don't know, but if the human race don't kill its self out then its bound to happen.

There are solutions. Maybe not so perfectly ethical ones but one that I can think of is an issue in which people are taking advantage of government benefits which give out extra money for each child they have. Yes this does happen, and these people are the kind that I swear I just want to smack. On the other hand though there should be some kind of cap on how many kids and also the situation, so this system won't be taken advantage of.

Further more just as we have stray cats and dogs. We have children without parents, and we have parents who should not have children due to high probability of birth defects or whatever. No these aren't the kind of people that would make bad parents, they just lack a decent set of genes.

See its not so much even humanity against nature, its even humanity against itself. Its a cruel power struggle. For now I can reluctantly see the huntings as a solution, but eventually there will come a time when taking the more easier ethical route isn't going to be an option.

NeonLightChild · 09-03-2009, 11:32 AM

Something tells me they're not just issuing permits to any Bubba with a shotgun who wants a trophy wolf rug on the floor. Sure, it's not like city deer culls where the meat can be donated to the homeless (the dead animal has a secondary use), but I doubt this is going to be the wolf Holocaust that activists are proclaiming.

I like what the guy says about the hunters being the biggest advocates for the animals. Any responsible hunter is also a conservationist who cares deeply about nature and the impact we have on it. It's the fricken canned hunts we need to be more concerned about, and maybe I'm not looking in the right place, but I don't see as much activism against those as I do sportsmanship and conservation hunts, and that worries me.

Of course, what we all need to be concerned about in the case of the wolf hunts is the influence of Idaho's idiot governor. I'm sure the Fish and Game people in the state can do a great job, but depending on how controlling of the organization the governor is, this might take a turn.

McKitty · 09-03-2009, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeonLightChild

I like what the guy says about the hunters being the biggest advocates for the animals. Any responsible hunter is also a conservationist who cares deeply about nature and the impact we have on it. It's the fricken canned hunts we need to be more concerned about, and maybe I'm not looking in the right place, but I don't see it and that worries me.

*nod
* It's been on the news a lot around here, and I do know a friend's dad who is going to get/already issued one of the permits. He respects the wolf, but knows that this is one of those terrible things that must be done.

If we didn't cull them in some aspect, sooner or later Mother Nature would via starvation or something else. Nature isn't happy-bunnies, it's vicious and red in tooth and claw.

Ieliv · 09-03-2009, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeonLightChild

Something tells me they're not just issuing permits to any Bubba with a shotgun who wants a trophy wolf rug on the floor. Sure, it's not like city deer culls where the meat can be donated to the homeless (the dead animal has a secondary use), but I doubt this is going to be the wolf Holocaust that activists are proclaiming.

I like what the guy says about the hunters being the biggest advocates for the animals. Any responsible hunter is also a conservationist who cares deeply about nature and the impact we have on it.

That's a bit more of a comforting thought. I know a few hunters, of both breeds. The kind with respect, and also those without. I'm sure that they would have some sort of screening process, I hope, and a limit, and some way to make sure that no one is taking more than necessary. Then that is fine. Its a solution, nothing more.

I know that some people think that wolves are extremely viscous and terrible killers. I personally think they get a bad reputation for that. They kill only to survive. Just as humans should, but don't.

Sometimes when I watch the news, and see all the crap that's going on in the world, I get to thinking. We call ourselves the dominant species, but yet were the only creature to cause war. Yes there are feuds between animals, but has anyone ever seen thousands of animals intentionally grouping together to fight thousands of other animals?

The difference between man and animal seems to be that the animals know when its time to stop.

On another note, when they released those wolves back into the wild to repopulate, exactly what did they expect them to do? Nature isn't going to obey man's rules and laws. Its the only thing that man can't control. The wolves did exactly what they wanted them to do, only a bit better.

So lets put the blame on the wolves for doing what they naturally are supposed to do, instead of scientists and biologists who put them there in the first place. Think about it. What is happening is nothing that we can really stop, but this is more of an example of how things have to change for the future. Killing will not always be an option to solve problems. What if they had released half as many wolves into the wild? Perhaps we wouldn't be dealing with this at this current time.

You can't change the past, but you can learn from it, and if your intelligent enough you CAN change the future.

Sinanju · 09-04-2009, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieliv

The difference between man and animal seems to be that the animals know when its time to stop.

more like animals don't have the ability to think in abstract forms or plan for the future. Theres no altruistic motive whatsoever behind an animals actions.

Wars are carried out for various reasons that are beyond animals, however animals do have their own survival mechanisms that are just as cruel as the ones humans use.

ThrasherCub · 09-04-2009, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinanju

Wars are carried out for various reasons that are beyond animals, however animals do have their own survival mechanisms that are just as cruel as the ones humans use.

Would now be a good time to remind everyone that there have been documented instances of monkeys fighting each other on a semi-organized scale?

NeonLightChild · 09-04-2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieliv

Yes there are feuds between animals, but has anyone ever seen thousands of animals intentionally grouping together to fight thousands of other animals?

Animals live in a society called Nature. We live in a vastly different society with different rules and norms. So this analogy is a a slight fail. I can tell, though, you've not yet read the Redwall series

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieliv

On another note, when they released those wolves back into the wild to repopulate, exactly what did they expect them to do? Nature isn't going to obey man's rules and laws. Its the only thing that man can't control. The wolves did exactly what they wanted them to do, only a bit better. What if they had released half as many wolves into the wild? Perhaps we wouldn't be dealing with this at this current time.

You contradict yourself here. If we released half as many wolves, truth be told, they'd probably be more inbred since there is not the genetic diversity achieved with the release of twice as many of the "half" you recommend. Wolves breed, as do elk, moose, and pretty much anything not asexual or sterile. And your statement about not dealing with this at the current time makes no sense. All this means is that we'll have to deal with it eventually. It doesn't matter if the hunt is done now or in 10 years, it's still going to happen.

That's just similar saying "Why don't the farmers just breed more livestock to compensate for those that were killed by wolves?" It simply can't be done.

Sinanju · 09-04-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThrasherCub

Would now be a good time to remind everyone that there have been documented instances of monkeys fighting each other on a semi-organized scale?

I wouldn't classify any of those as war. War is deeper than just a multi-participant conflict.

ThrasherCub · 09-04-2009, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinanju

I wouldn't classify any of those as war. War is deeper than just a multi-participant conflict.

True, but it's about as close as monkeys can get, which I do think speaks volumes about this silly notion that animals are these sweet loving Disney creatures imbued with a sense of justice.

09-03-2009, 11:32 AM	#13
NeonLightChild Running Free Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 255 Thanks: 67 Thanked 94 Times in 60 Posts	Something tells me they're not just issuing permits to any Bubba with a shotgun who wants a trophy wolf rug on the floor. Sure, it's not like city deer culls where the meat can be donated to the homeless (the dead animal has a secondary use), but I doubt this is going to be the wolf Holocaust that activists are proclaiming. I like what the guy says about the hunters being the biggest advocates for the animals. Any responsible hunter is also a conservationist who cares deeply about nature and the impact we have on it. It's the fricken canned hunts we need to be more concerned about, and maybe I'm not looking in the right place, but I don't see as much activism against those as I do sportsmanship and conservation hunts, and that worries me. Of course, what we all need to be concerned about in the case of the wolf hunts is the influence of Idaho's idiot governor. I'm sure the Fish and Game people in the state can do a great job, but depending on how controlling of the organization the governor is, this might take a turn. Last edited by NeonLightChild; 09-03-2009 at 11:39 AM.

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09-02-2009, 08:22 PM	#11
NeonLightChild Running Free Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 255 Thanks: 67 Thanked 94 Times in 60 Posts	No matter how you look at it, there is no going back to the past. Human population is growing at an exponential rate, and development sites are doing the same thing, and until people stop breeding and selling land to developers, it's not going to change. (On a similar note, I love this video!) So the problem now is either a) fixing what we've done, or b) finding an unsteady balance with nature as it is now. We can't fix what we've done unless we kill off a good part of the population and let the land go to seed. HIGHLY unlikely and simply implausible. The only other option is to strike a balance, but that means keeping certain populations in check. People? Good luck with that. Animals? Much easier to maintain a level that's workable with the surrounding area. That's why cities hire bowhunters every so often to get rid of the city deer when they start becoming a nuisance. (And that's also why bleeding-heart "I don't want to kill the animal so I'll let it die a cruel slow bloody death at the hands of some unlucky driver" policies like Bambi Birth Control fizzle.) But we also need to recognize that in some places, there needs to be a balance. We had an explosion of rabbits this year, and for some reason, no coyotes. Of course, everyone hates the coyotes because they kill little foo-foo dogs and whatnot, but they also prey on the local rodents that ruin gardens and lawns. So my family, while they'd rather not SEE them as much as know they're there, support the existence of coyotes in suburbia. The farmers must do the same thing with wolves. It's healthy for the land to have predators, but too many, and there's an imbalance. It's cathartic to think of all wolves running wild and free, but think about it this way: that's why there's such a run on getting rid of wild horses. Yhere is simply not enough land for all of them. The oil toycoon's wife who spent a good chunk of money to buy some land for them to live on is well-intentioned and looks good...but with unchecked breeding and no adequate predation, the writing's on the wall. Hope you can see where I'm going with this. I'm not the biggest fan of hunting predator like bear or wolf, but I believe that enough people see what is going on. The gray wolf is a part of North America, and needs to be part of the ecosystem here, but at this point in time, it is unfortunately up to us to make sure they STAY successful. I could spell out doom and gloom by saying that people are eventually going to (or already do?) need to control everything, nature as it was meant to be is dying, etc, and maybe that's true in some respects. But the fact remains that we just can't go back to "how things were." We need to focus on the now and live in the present in order to have a successful future. /end motivational speech

09-03-2009, 04:53 AM	#12
Ieliv Running Free Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The Middle of Nowhere, Ohio Posts: 23 Thanks: 6 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	That is a valid point and a very good one too. Also I loved that videoXD. Anyway my personal thoughts are not so much on the now, but rather the then. The future. Someday we are going to run out of resources and space. Whichever comes first I don't know, but if the human race don't kill its self out then its bound to happen. There are solutions. Maybe not so perfectly ethical ones but one that I can think of is an issue in which people are taking advantage of government benefits which give out extra money for each child they have. Yes this does happen, and these people are the kind that I swear I just want to smack. On the other hand though there should be some kind of cap on how many kids and also the situation, so this system won't be taken advantage of. Further more just as we have stray cats and dogs. We have children without parents, and we have parents who should not have children due to high probability of birth defects or whatever. No these aren't the kind of people that would make bad parents, they just lack a decent set of genes. See its not so much even humanity against nature, its even humanity against itself. Its a cruel power struggle. For now I can reluctantly see the huntings as a solution, but eventually there will come a time when taking the more easier ethical route isn't going to be an option.